Mohammedans (EB could be a prejudiced bigot, but at least he's not Dot)

bloop bloop blah
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Post #1 by Dr_Chimera » Sun May 05, 2013 4:04 pm

diarrhea
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Post #2 by Fruity Pebbles » Sun May 05, 2013 4:49 pm

The butthurt in the comment section of that huffington post article by liberals and Muslims is hilarious.

The article is well written and is a reflection of modern discourse when it comes to Muslims and Islam.
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Post #3 by Sturminator » Mon May 06, 2013 3:51 am

I have mixed feelings about Islamists. I mean, most of the time, I think we should be negotiating with napalm, but then there are also times I wish their bombs would actually go off.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/05/justin-bieber-attacked-on-stage-in-dubai#

Shame that guy couldn't get his act together.
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Post #4 by AD » Sat May 11, 2013 11:30 am

EB... if you are a smart boy. But if you were half as smart as you thought you were, you're be leading the world by now.
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Post #5 by AD » Sat May 11, 2013 11:32 am

And as for this thread, the truth is the exact opposite of the title. Muslims are horrible people, but Islam is fine and dandy.
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Post #6 by AD » Sat May 11, 2013 1:38 pm

embracedbias wrote:I'm more pinky than the brain, certainly.

You didn't like the article? What specifically do you disagree with?


Start by telling me what Islam is.
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Post #7 by RTWAP » Sat May 11, 2013 1:54 pm

Banana wrote:Start by telling me what Islam is.


Uhmmm.... there's a book, and some other books about it. And stuff.
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Post #8 by Fruity Pebbles » Sat May 11, 2013 2:46 pm

Banana wrote:Start by telling me what Islam is.


A cheap imitation.
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Post #9 by Fruity Pebbles » Sun May 12, 2013 3:06 pm

dempsey_k wrote:In terms of literary quality, the Qur'an is substantively less profound and diverse of an epic as the Bible. It's less diverse for obvious reasons, but it does come off as an Ovid to the Bible's Homer/Virgil: sweet and to the point. But the Ovid comparison maintains when you move the focus from narrative to style: the poetic/lyrical brilliance of the Qur'an being nearly unmatched in Arabic is no slight against Arabic literature, any more than the King James Bible remaining atop our tradition is a slight against ours. Both are written in archaic formulations that pain the brain to speak original sentences in, however.

But quite unequivocal is how the social and political model inscribed in the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Sunnah was far more advanced than the Roman-Christian unwritten Constitution. One could make a great case that the only reason Islam didn't more successfully penetrate Dark Age Europe was because of the agricultural differences between these two models (pigs vs. goats based on how they feed).


No one's saying cheap imitations (Chinese lead paint toys) aren't popular.
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Post #10 by gr » Thu May 23, 2013 1:40 pm

no chatter about this clown?
Image


Didn't mean as it pertains to this thread so much as in general discussion.
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Post #11 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 1:41 pm

Just more proof that muslims are bad (and that has nothing to do with Islam)
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Post #12 by gr » Thu May 23, 2013 1:43 pm

Didn't mean as it pertains to this thread so much as in general discussion.
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Post #13 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 1:50 pm

gr wrote:Didn't mean as it pertains to this thread so much as in general news.


It had a brief spurt of chatter in the general thread.


But for my post, I'm going back to my tiff with EB... Islam is good (whatever that means.. I know) because it is more of a maleable and individual worldview which allows for more freedom and .. uhh.. personal blossoming than other religious type worldviews.

That said, the downside is that this freedom allows for more crazies to fit their crazyness inside the precepts.

Hence why I keep saying that muslims are bad. Because they can remain muslim while being bad and Islam doesn't have a clear way of rejecting them. Meanwhile, christians that declare themselves christian but otherwise do heinous stuff can be excommuniated or shunned by a clear will of a central authority. And even the precepts themselves are more rigid and the direction of the movement is more tightly held (and therefore heinous acts can be more clearly rejected)
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Post #14 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 1:57 pm

Banana wrote:But for my post, I'm going back to my tiff with EB... Islam is good (whatever that means.. I know) because it is more of a maleable and individual worldview which allows for more freedom and .. uhh.. personal blossoming than other religious type worldviews.


Lolwut?

So you're saying that Islam is better than other religions because it is the world's biggest clusterfuck, eh? Heh...I guess I can get on board with that, in the sense that a half dead religion is better than a living one. But isn't it the case that the history of Islam doesn't just allow the crazies to exist, but actively encourages their existence? Is that just the price we pay for your...blossoming?
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Post #15 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 2:00 pm

Sturminator wrote:Lolwut?


I'm doing a comparative study of your everyday run of the mill Sunni Islam and your every day run of the mill Catholic. (for arguments sake).
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Post #16 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 2:01 pm

embracedbias wrote:So Islam is good relative to other religions? Fair enough.


It's still bad.


Then why even point it out in a thread title/article/discussion.. instead of just saying: "Religion is bad and stupid".
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Post #17 by Germz » Thu May 23, 2013 2:01 pm

Banana wrote:ecause they can remain muslim while being bad and Islam doesn't have a clear way of rejecting them. Meanwhile, christians that declare themselves christian but otherwise do heinous stuff can be excommuniated or shunned by a clear will of a central authority. And even the precepts themselves are more rigid and the direction of the movement is more tightly held (and therefore heinous acts can be more clearly rejected)


See now I would have said the opposite, except for a large institution like the Catholic Church, which it's true does have the power to shun but is unfortunately prone to an institutional depravity which pretty well neutralizes that.

Most modern Christianities, and American Christianities in particular, are very decentralized, and the precepts are very loosely defined except for "Jesus was the Son of God and he died so others might have life everlasting."
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Post #18 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 2:03 pm

Germz wrote:See now I would have said the opposite


Sure but then you're be clearly wrong.
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Post #19 by zamboner » Thu May 23, 2013 2:12 pm

At least d00d targeted a soldier. Isn't that progress?
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Post #20 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 2:16 pm

Banana wrote:I'm doing a comparative study of your everyday run of the mill Sunni Islam and your every day run of the mill Catholic. (for arguments sake).


So you're saying that a garden variety Sunni Muslim douchebag is less douchey than a garden variety Catholic douchebag, because he is more "free to blossom"? Does your wife know that you're turning into a smelly hippie?
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Post #21 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 2:19 pm

Sturminator wrote:So you're saying that a garden variety Sunni Muslim douchebag is less douchey than a garden variety Catholic douchebag, because he is more "free to blossom"? Does your wife know that you're turning into a smelly hippie?


No no no that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying a run of the mill douchey muslim is more free to be whatever the heck he thinks Islam is and that makes Islam a more modern and open world view than, say, Catholicism.

I'd add that this makes most muslims choose more douchier paths than most catholics but thats not because Islam is bad, its because Islam is more open and catholicism's rigidity helps the douchey catholic appear less douchey.
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Post #22 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 3:35 pm

The connection between Islam and modernity that you are asserting seems rather...counterfactual.
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Post #23 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 3:50 pm

Sturminator wrote:The connection between Islam and modernity that you are asserting seems rather...counterfactual.


Its all in relative terms.

All articles (and any discussion) about Islam's inherent goodness or badness are a judgment on Islam versus other similar religions. Saying "Islam is bad but muslims are okay" is just a ridiculous statement.

Islam in and of itself has nothing bad (in relative terms) and Muslims themselves have nothing good (in relative terms to another random block of any other religion). Any wrong that is attributed to Islam itself should actually be attributed to the idiot muslims who are using Islam's relative freedom and lax(ness) to do whatever idiocy they're thinking of.
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Post #24 by mayoradamwest » Thu May 23, 2013 3:56 pm

Scientologists are the only truly good people out there.
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Post #25 by Germz » Thu May 23, 2013 3:58 pm

First you say Christianity, now you say Catholicism. Important distinction.

And even Catholics rarely kill heretics anymore. They just let them go join another Church and assume that they are going to hell.

Christian institutions only had to become rigid because their holy book was so loosey-goosey that you couldn't build a functioning society upon it. Islam and Judaism's holy books, by contrast, were designed to govern people's behaviour in society. Obviously both have become very decentralized over the years for different reasons.
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Post #26 by Macbeth » Thu May 23, 2013 4:31 pm

Germz wrote:First you say Christianity, now you say Catholicism. Important distinction.

And even Catholics rarely kill heretics anymore. They just let them go join another Church and assume that they are going to hell.

Christian institutions only had to become rigid because their holy book was so loosey-goosey that you couldn't build a functioning society upon it. Islam and Judaism's holy books, by contrast, were designed to govern people's behaviour in society. Obviously both have become very decentralized over the years for different reasons.


Uh, well, we still do it in Rosemont. :colbert:

That and book autodafés.
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Post #27 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 4:54 pm

Banana wrote:Its all in relative terms.


Ah, so you mean Muslims are more modern once we take into account the fact that the average Muslim is an ignorant, impoverished schlock, and the average Catholic a bit less so. I like it. So does my cat's atheism make him more modern than Catholics as well, once we take into account the fact that he is a cat, and that I have been too lazy to properly potty train him?
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Post #28 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 4:55 pm

Sturminator wrote:Ah, so you mean Muslims are more modern once we take into account the fact that the average Muslim is an ignorant, impoverished schlock, and the average Catholic a bit less so. I like it. So does my cat's atheism make him more modern than Catholics as well, once we take into account the fact that he is a cat, and that I have been too lazy to properly potty train him?


You're not very good at this reading thing are you.

I'm saying the opposite of what you just said you doofus.
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Post #29 by habfan4 » Thu May 23, 2013 5:02 pm

AD - Are you suggesting that Islam is more modern than the other Abrahamic faiths because it has no error correcting mechanism or central authority? Wouldn't the codification/centralization of religious doctrine be a modern trait when contrasted with Islam's "feel free to interpret the Koran/Haddith et al in a fashion which justifies your personal beliefs"?
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Post #30 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 5:07 pm

Banana wrote:You're not very good at this reading thing are you.

I'm saying the opposite of what you just said you doofus.


Then you're not very good at writing.

this:

I'm saying a run of the mill douchey muslim is more free to be whatever the heck he thinks Islam is and that makes Islam a more modern and open world view than, say, Catholicism.


+ the plain fact that the average Muslim is, in fact, less modern than the average Catholic

+ this:

Its all in relative terms.


...implies logically that, vis-á-vis the relative modernity of the Mussulman, theory and practice diverge as a result of the relative poverty of the Muslim world - that Islam's inherent "freedom to blossom" is masked by the cruel fact that many Muslims live in medieval conditions, and thus blossom into medieval dickholes. Although I think it is a load of shit, this would at least have the virtue of being a coherent argument. You are evidently arguing something entirely less coherent. I have not yet grasped your point, but as I am not a Catholic, there may be hope for me.
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Post #31 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 5:11 pm

Don't forget sisu.
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Post #32 by Craig » Thu May 23, 2013 5:15 pm

He called one specific aspect of Islam a more modern world view. Basically he's saying that the freedom of interpretation in Islam jives with modern freedoms.

It doesn't say anything about the modernity of Muslims.
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Post #33 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 5:17 pm

habfan4 wrote:AD - Are you suggesting that Islam is more modern than the other Abrahamic faiths because it has no error correcting mechanism or central authority? Wouldn't the codification/centralization of religious doctrine be a modern trait when contrasted with Islam's "feel free to interpret the Koran/Haddith et al in a fashion which justifies your personal beliefs"?


That would be closer to my hopthesis. Edit: Typo, but its a fantastic way of describing my ideas when I've had too much beer.

I'd add that the rampant backwardnsess ignorance and poverty plaguing muslims right now is the root cause for the issues and not Islam.

Sturminator wrote:Then you're not very good at writing.

this:



+ the plain fact that the average Muslim is, in fact, less modern than the average Catholic

+ this:



...implies logically that, vis-á-vis the relative modernity of the Mussulman, theory and practice diverge as a result of the relative poverty of the Muslim world - that Islam's inherent "freedom to blossom" is masked by the cruel fact that many Muslims live in medieval conditions. Although I think it is a load of shit, this would at least have the virtue of being a coherent argument. You are evidently arguing something entirely less coherent. I have not yet grasped your point, but as I am not a Catholic, there may be hope for me.


Once again.. you're conflating Islam and Muslims in what I said. Let me hold your hand through the logic.

Islam is more free and modern. Muslims are backwards.

Islam allows for individual freedom.
Backward muslims use that freedom in stupid ways.
Muslims act stupidly.
Islam's freedom and looseness doesn't allow for structures to outright reject that stupidity.

So we go back to my original post in this thread: Islam is fine and dandy. Muslims are horrible humans.
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Post #34 by Germz » Thu May 23, 2013 5:26 pm

Banana, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but IMO trying to argue that one of these Israelite Cult spin-off religions is somehow more 'modern' than another is a waste of precious breath.

Then again Protestants have been arguing that for centuries. Something about FREEEEEEEDOM or whatever. Ask a German idealist.

Obviously Islam as it is practiced is not a monolith and many Muslims live in shit conditions. Moving on.
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Post #35 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 5:30 pm

Germz wrote:Banana, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but IMO trying to argue that one of these Israelite Cult spin-off religions is somehow more 'modern' than another is a waste of precious breath.

Then again Protestants have been arguing that for centuries. Something about FREEEEEEEDOM or whatever. Ask a German idealist.


Protestants are right.

But they actually molded it into a very democratic and community oriented freedom. Meanwhile the muslim's sense of community is only the very general and theoretical Umma (which really is bullsquat if you think about its actual effect on the life of each muslim). They've taken the whole "direct Relationship with god" to an extreme of individualism that makes such communnity building very difficult. And its this individualism that leads to the fucking excesses right. Because is every group you'll have nutso outliers. But the muslims have no hold on their nutso outliers. Hell, the Tools and building blocks of Islam actually allow the nutso outliers to be legitimatized.
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Post #36 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 5:31 pm

If that is the case, AD, then there has certainly been a failure to read for content in our conversation, but it is not on my side. I understand perfectly well what you are claiming about Islam "in theory", and I also understand that the only way to reconcile this claim with Islam in practice is through an argument which turns on the material differences between the Muslim world and that of the other "people of the book". Islam is good; Muslims are assholes...because they are poor. I was merely extending the logic of your own pointless and unfalsifiable argument. Evidently you're not comfortable with that. Can we just bash Catholics then, and skip this jibberish about Moors and their backward ways?
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Post #37 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 5:33 pm

dempsey_k wrote:preislamic cultures in Iran, the Balkans, Central & South Asia and especially Africa have always reared their heads, only to be chopped off. going forward, that might happen with more frequency and less chopping.


The other problem here is that relative to the culture on which Christianity grafted itself, one strains to call the pre-Muslim societies (including the Bedoins, but excepting Iran) cultures, at all. Compared to the Romans, camel jockeys would be a relatively accurate description of the tribes surrounding Mecca and Medina in the time of Muhammed. Of course, the Caliphs stole liberally from the Persians, but mainly in matters of statecraft and bureaucracy. Very little actual pre-Islamic culture has really managed to percolate its way through the religion in a durable form, in large part because such voodoo is actively discouraged in the Qu'ran.
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Post #38 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 5:38 pm

I'd be happy to bash catholics but I have no opinion about them specifically. And every couple of hundred years, the catholic "management" comes together and reinvents itself and distributes its new themes throughout its churches.

Muslims can't do that. Hell.. Muslims don't even have such a management (only authority figures that gain authority by arguing with other authority figures).

For chrissakes.. Islam even accepts having bible-thumpers around (for a fee - and if they're non-violent). Islam isn't even rigid enough to say that other Abrahamites should be assimilated.


But yes Sturm - bash at the Crazy Catholics. Of course, I'd rather bash the Jews. (goes without saying)
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Post #39 by AD » Thu May 23, 2013 5:40 pm

Sturminator wrote:The other problem here is that relative to the culture on which Christianity grafted itself, one strains to call the pre-Muslim societies (including the Bedoins, but excepting Iran) cultures, at all. Compared to the Romans, camel jockeys would be a relatively accurate description of the tribes surrounding Mecca and Medina in the time of Muhammed.


I've written a nice little piece about how the Roman Empire muslims are actually still applying Roman Law.

Its just that they couldn't assimilate/kill/convince the camel-jockey muslims to get off the camels because no one ever had the authority to do it. So now there are some 3 or 4 thousand interprétations of Islam of which hundreds and hundreds are based on Camel-jockey logic. (My theologist father would say there are as many Islamic sects as there are muslims).
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Post #40 by Sturminator » Thu May 23, 2013 5:45 pm

You've got thick skin, AD. I'd have had Vikram at defcon 1 by now.
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