Mohammedans (EB could be a prejudiced bigot, but at least he's not Dot)

[Sturminator]

I take it you typed that with one hand, AD.

[AD]

I'm not muslim but that particular Fatwa I follow religiously.

[Germz]

I'm not muslim but that particular Fatwa I follow religiously.

A true Muslim wouldn't trade his right hand for all the virgins in Paradise.

[PPJ]

A true Muslim wouldn't trade his right hand for all the virgins in Paradise.

Fools. It's a mistranslation. They actually get grapes. Lol.

[jester]

You've got it precisely the opposite.

Greenwald points out that most people who criticize "New Atheists" are themselves atheist. Clearly the "debate" has little to do with atheism. And, after all, how could it? Atheism just means that you don't believe in God. The attempt to associate that with this or that set of additional beliefs is stupid. You could only be a fraudulent atheist if you said that you didn't believe in God but you actually did.

I doubt Greenwald would agree with this. Because he is a moron.

You don't think atheism correlates with other beliefs?

Significant claim given your unwillingness to engage with theology has meant that your entire argument about Islam/Religion has been based on correlation.

[jester]

It correlates with other beliefs, but it isn't a belief system. Atheism is simply a lable for a lack of a particular belief. There is no doctrine. No ritual. It's not a religion.

Well, there is a doctrine ... as you yourself noted. You cannot believe in God. I'd also argue that stating "There is no God" is just as profound a theological statement as saying "There is a God," but that's a far more philosophic discussion.

This, however, is sidestepping the point. You argued that associating atheism with other beliefs is "stupid." Well, historically speaking, atheism associates pretty strongly with rationalism, empiricism, etc. More broadly, the decline of religion tracked with the birth of nationalism, and other more state-centered ideologies in the early modern period.

[Craig]

Well, there is a doctrine ... as you yourself noted. You cannot believe in God. I'd also argue that stating "There is no God" is just as profound a theological statement as saying "There is a God," but that's a far more philosophic discussion.

This, however, is sidestepping the point. You argued that associating atheism with other beliefs is "stupid." Well, historically speaking, atheism associates pretty strongly with rationalism, empiricism, etc. More broadly, the decline of religion tracked with the birth of nationalism, and other more state-centered ideologies in the early modern period.

Gotta believe in something.

[Dog]

Gotta believe in something.

Not Atheists.

/eb

[Sturminator]

Mohammedans...doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Mohammedans...doo, doo, doo, doo
Mohammedans...doo, doo...doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo, doo, doo

Mohamma...da, da, da, da, da
Mohamma...da, da, da, da, da
Mohamma...da, da, da, da...da, da, da!

...da?

Mohammedans...doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Mohammedans...doo, doo, doo, doo
Mohammedans...doo, doo...doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo, doo, doo...doo, doo, doo, doo, doo

[AD]

Well no shit. Who the hell believes that the Islamic religion itself is causal of this behaviour? Thats just silly.

[Retardé S]

The Quran don't help itself tho.

[AD]

Oh I'm really happy we finally have a Qur'an specialist in the thread. Pray tell, RRS, does the Surat As-Saf actually ask for believers to fight non believers and does it consider Moises and Jesus' teachings to be the true belief (and thus non-believers are all others)?

[AD]

What about Surat Al-Kafirun. It has a general live and let live feel. How does that interplay with the rest?

[AD]

Al-Nassr specifically says that all who repent can be back in the fold and accepted by Allah. Seems to be against the concept of capital punishment. But you're the expert.

[Fruity Pebbles]

What a shock that a religious book is open to interpretation. Thanks for that nugget.

[AD]

Oh Dot's here guys! Oh goodie, I hadn't yet read my quota of ridiculously simple minded hateful racist posts this week yet.

I'm glad I'll be able to cross that off my list for the week. Please go on.

[Fruity Pebbles]

Oh Dot's here guys! Oh goodie, I hadn't yet read my quota of ridiculously simple minded hateful racist posts this week yet.

I'm glad I'll be able to cross that off my list for the week. Please go on.

No problem

[Retardé S]

Oh I'm really happy we finally have a Qur'an specialist in the thread. Pray tell, RRS, does the Surat As-Saf actually ask for believers to fight non believers and does it consider Moises and Jesus' teachings to be the true belief (and thus non-believers are all others)?

That's fucking violence right there.

[Retardé S]

Oh I'm really happy we finally have a Qur'an specialist in the thread. Pray tell, RRS, does the Surat As-Saf actually ask for believers to fight non believers and does it consider Moises and Jesus' teachings to be the true belief (and thus non-believers are all others)?

That's fucking violence right there.

[Retardé S]

But nevermind, islam is a religion of peace.

[AD]

That's fucking violence right there.

Why yes. Yes it is. *pat pat pat*.

Now run along and give us Joe Sakic's Corsi rating.

[Craig]

Not causative tho!

Not more causative than indoctrination by other religions.

[jester]

I'm not sure how anyone can read that article honestly and think it supports a causative argument. It starts by noting a constellation of reasons why people end up in an ISIS training camp (i.e., they've shown up before the religious indoctrination) and then goes on to discuss the use of "arcane" justifications for behavior. Those justifications are so arcane, in fact, that the vast majority of Muslims are unaware that they have any connection (flimsy though they are) to Islamic theology.

[jester]

What do you figure is the outcome of massive indoctrination for a Jain? The only parallel that i can think of is christian indoctrination of some centuries ago. Which exists in pockets today (Westboro Baptist Church as an example), but is clearly less mainstream than in current Islam.

But, anyway.... your argument was that it has such a little effect relative to environment that we shouldn't care about it. Do you still believe that after reading that article?

You ever talked to a Marine?

[Craig]

What do you figure is the outcome of massive indoctrination for a Jain? The only parallel that i can think of is christian indoctrination of some centuries ago. Which exists in pockets today (Westboro Baptist Church as an example), but is clearly less mainstream than in current Islam.

But, anyway.... your argument was that it has such a little effect relative to environment that we shouldn't care about it. Do you still believe that after reading that article?

I never said we shouldn't care about it. I just think religious extremism is largely a symptom of other socioeconomic causes and I don't think the particular religion involved makes much of a difference.

The difference between you and me is you see Islamic extremism and start thinking of ways to get rid of Islam. I see Islamic extremism and start thinking of ways to use the other 99% of Islam to get rid of the extremists.

That or I go fiddle with my fantasy hockey team or whatever.

[jester]

No? I'm canadian

Didn't realize it was impossible to meet a Marine whilst living in Canada. Nevertheless, if you think there is anything strange about that level of indoctrination, I assure you there is not. Just different words and justifications.

[jester]

Lol. How many people show up non-religious, jester? They come in with the foundation of faith, and the ISIS religious indoctrinators build on that foundation using direct justification from religious texts. The indoctrination cannot happen without the authority of prior religious faith.

The vast majority of Muslims may be unaware... but they are also completely incapable of arguing against them. Some advanced theologians are able to untwist themselves from the knot (if only in their own minds), but this is not an easy task for a normal person. Hence the danger of the religion.

This is pure conjecture on your part, given that you have declared yourself unwilling to really dig into theology.

It also ignores the very first arguments the piece makes:

"Little is known about what goes on inside training camps run by Isis in areas under its control in Iraq and Syria – particularly its religious component. The Isis ideology is generally viewed as identical to al-Qaida’s or the Saudi version of Salafism – adherence to fundamental Islamic tenets – and so there does not seem to be a serious effort to study it more closely. There is also a tendency to play down the role of religious ideology as a recruitment tool, since the motives of many Isis members have little to do with religion."

And...

"As part of research involving in-depth interviews with Isis members for a book about the organisation, American analyst Michael Weiss and I have identified half a dozen categories of Isis members according to the factors that drew them to the group. In at least two of those categories, religion more than anything else has been the driving force. But these two demographic components – long-standing takfiris (radicals who adhere to teachings that declare fellow Muslims as infidels) and young zealots – are more central for Isis than other members because they formulate the group’s identity and ensure its resilience. In addition, the appeal of Isis outside its conflict zones tends to be primarily ideologically driven."

So, you have a group in which many members ARE NOT motivated by religion, and they've identified 6 or so groups of recruits and only two of those groups are driven by religion.

The article then outlines the indoctrination after the recruits arrive, which relies heavily on obscure texts to build an internal ideology going forward.

They're a cult. A cult that frames itself as a legitimate, true reading of Islam. Cults ain't unique to Islam, eb.

[AD]

EB's hatred of Islam is an act of faith guys. You trying to reason with him is pretty hopeless. I've now sort of accepted him as he is and love him for it.

Just like that weird ultra-christian kid we had in class in high school. If you ignore that one part of his persona, he's a good guy.

[AD]

You can't. You really, really can't.

People get jazzed up about avatar. Sure. Would they cut someone's head off for avatar? C'mon.

So you saying Christianity, Communism, Nationalism, Judaism, fascism etc. haven't been used to intoxicate people?

[jester]

The first quote is background.

Where did the author say that there are groups who are NOT motivated by religion? I honestly do not know how you are employed. He said that 2 of the 6 are very strongly motivated by religion (and that they form the identity of ISIS). Not that 4 of the 6 don't draw any motivation from religion. You see how big of a difference that is, right?

Like, holy shit.

Well, not being a bigot is a good start. BTW, just watched the author get interviewed. He doesn't agree with you.

Also, that's a massive difference from what YOU are arguing. You read that article and snarked about causation.

[jester]

you're a bigot for presuming to dictate what is and is not the true form of Islam to Muslims.

Have I? Careful, eb, you're awfully close to having to discuss theology.

The author says explicitly that they were motivated by religion. What do you think causation means?

All of them? Most of them?

Seriously, it's funny to me that you would read an article about post-recruitment indoctrination and ignore the fact that they've already got em.

[RTWAP]

eb, I think the point you're missing is that lots of religions can be twisted to support militant extremism. Christianity can. Perhaps Jainism can't. That just proves that you can split religions into those two groups, Easy To Twist For Extremists and Hard To Twist For Extremists. Is Islam a bit easier to twist than Christianity? Maybe. But that's not particularly relevant or interesting. If you could wave a wand and swap the positions of Islam and Christianity do you really think the situation would be much different? I don't. Which argues that it's the social, political and economic conditions that for the seed of extremism that should be the focus, not on some perception that Islam is slightly more fertile ground for it.