Mohammedans (EB could be a prejudiced bigot, but at least he's not Dot)

bloop bloop blah
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Post #2201 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:16 pm

too metrosexual to pass off as a Muslim
:mkbét::lr: :lr:

OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone

It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.

Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."

...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...

Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.


:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2202 by Dog » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:19 pm

embracedbias wrote:At this point, I'll settle for that. With an acceptance that "culture" (and therefore "environment") is also influenced by religion.

And a reminder that the larger argument is about the influence of religions in general. The islam vs. other religions thing is secondary.


Religion is part of culture and culture will vary from group to group. What I would caution you against is trying to infer conclusions on "dangerousity" that would be applicable to Islam as a whole -it's just as unjust to claim that a perfectly peaceful follower of Islam in Jakarta, New York or London is somehow more prone to being dangerous (in ideas or acts) because of his faith than to claim that a black kid from a perfectly good home is more prone to being dumb. The problem with sweeping generalizations is that they sweep so large that they mostly catch people that are not what you label them (and exonerate people that would fit that label).

You want to say that there is a problem with radical islam, fine. But, you are wrong when you casually take that huge leap that goes from that and extends it to the whole of islam (ie. the belief of muslims). If you accept, as you state in your post above, that religion has little to do with it then it's futile to focus on it.
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Post #2203 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:20 pm

Artie wrote:i was referring to you being a Muslim sympathizer


I'm a people person Arts. I love, I don't hate. I don't discriminate.
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Post #2204 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:21 pm

Dog wrote:Religion is part of culture and culture will vary from group to group. What I would caution you against is trying to infer conclusions on "dangerousity" that would be applicable to Islam as a whole -it's just as unjust to claim that a perfectly peaceful follower of Islam in Jakarta, New York or London is somehow more prone to being dangerous (in ideas or acts) because of his faith than to claim that a black kid from a perfectly good home is more prone to being dumb. The problem with sweeping generalizations is that they sweep so large that they mostly catch people that are not what you label them (and exonerate people that would fit that label).

You want to say that there is a problem with radical islam, fine. But, you are wrong when you casually take that huge leap that goes from that and extends it to the whole of islam (ie. the belief of muslims). If you accept, as you state in your post above, that religion has little to do with it then it's futile to focus on it.


and D thinks I repeat muself
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2205 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:23 pm

AD wrote:I'm a people person Arts. I love, I don't hate. I don't discriminate.


a great men and would have made an even better MVP
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2206 by Dog » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:28 pm

But AD and EB both speak english.
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Post #2207 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:28 pm

Dog wrote:But AD and EB both speak english.


but they think in different languages
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2208 by Dog » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:29 pm

Dog wrote:But AD and EB both speak english.


There has to be something else.

Maybe it's their respective religion.
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Post #2209 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:34 pm

Lord Chezz wrote:Or perhaps socio-economic status?


Like how he's a right wing Canadian country bumpkin from suspect lineage and I'm an aristocratic liberal urban educated elite?
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Post #2210 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:35 pm

can these guys be trusted as reporting factual data

UberFacts ‏@UberFacts
ISIS released a Youtube video that showed jihadist militants recruiting young boys by giving them ice cream and cotton candy.
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2211 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:54 pm

should we consult Rico on the bumpkins
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2212 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:54 pm

it was AD's resolution not mine
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2213 by IcE ColD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:03 pm

Lord Chezz wrote:Exactly.

Language is the reason for all the shit in the world.


If all spoke English, this thread wouldn't exist.


Ta yeule, sti :squint:
Society is actually a bunch of flawed primates guided by selfishness, fear, and superstitious bullshit.

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Post #2214 by Dog » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:04 pm

embracedbias wrote:I vote NDP


I've had enough. Move to ban eb.
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Post #2215 by Artie » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:11 pm

embracedbias wrote:I vote NDP


again proving AD's point
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2216 by Dog » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:16 pm

embracedbias wrote:Do you think that Islam is prone to "radical" interpretations?

And I'm concerned with much more than violence. Any progressive issue, really.

"Being dangerous" is a loaded way to say it. Very few people are "dangerous". A Muslim in New York may be more likely to be sentimental to conservative elements of his religion (even if not necessarily subscribing to them) than a christian in new york.


Of course Islam is prone (if you mean "at risk", not if you mean "likely") to radical interpretation. And I wrote my post with more than violent behaviours in mind.
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Post #2217 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:39 pm

Artie wrote:if AD weren't here I'd say redundant


Yes, but did you know that eb has a particular set of skills? Skills he acquired over a very long career?
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Post #2218 by jester » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:48 am

embracedbias wrote:I'm talking about the difference between american jews and american christians, muslims, mormons, Scientologists, etc.


You realize that the majority of the Jewish population lives in predominantly liberal political environments, right? Comparing a NYC anything to an Arkansas anything is going to display considerable difference.

This is without getting into the educational and professional trends in these groups.
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Post #2219 by Sturminator » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:11 am

dempsey_k wrote:Islam's deepest issue is that it built a new civilization that couldn't conceive of secularism without being an Uncle Tom, or a coconut, as the anglophone Akhis in IS and AQ are fond of saying. Muhammad's theocracy presided over all secular issues from the start, and there was no precedent other than Mosaic law. Iran and the Kurds swivel between Mecca and their former culture Islam placed itself upon. Islam is qualitatively different there because it encroached upon something that was already coherent. Islam never truly took root in the Balkans like it did elsewhere in the Ottoman strongholds because their culture was already fully formed.


Yes, Islam is essentially the beginning and end of Arab culture. No great wonder they're stuck in medieval modes of thinking; the idea of an Arab renaissance is ludicrous because there is nothing to which they might go back. But this is a problem of Arab culture, specifically, not Islam generally. Other Muslim groups do not choke in the same vacuum that the Arabs do.

The real lessons here are probably that:

1) when religion (any religion) is the fulcrum of culture, clusterfuckery ensues.

2) the Arabs are fucked. Their empire grew much faster than their culture, and they simply could not keep their shit together. As a result of their glorious past, they continue to suffer from delusions of grandeur and cultural chauvinism grossly out of proportion to the actual substance of their culture.
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Post #2220 by AD » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:29 am

dempsey_k wrote:Islam's deepest issue is that it built a new civilization that couldn't conceive of secularism without being an Uncle Tom, or a coconut, as the anglophone Akhis in IS and AQ are fond of saying. Muhammad's theocracy presided over all secular issues from the start, and there was no precedent other than Mosaic law. Iran and the Kurds swivel between Mecca and their former culture Islam placed itself upon. Islam is qualitatively different there because it encroached upon something that was already coherent. Islam never truly took root in the Balkans like it did elsewhere in the Ottoman strongholds because their culture was already fully formed.

Christianity was built to inhabit the non-secular realms, and it's intrusions there were reactionary and manufactured. Christianity was built on a Greco-Roman-German culture that was already formed that handled all secular practical laws. In the Renaissance, Europeans who relied on Salic Law and Corpus Juris Civilis had reified Roman institutions, as Machiavelli reified the mentality of pre-Christian statecraft that was beyond good or evil. As soon as The Discourses was printed, Christianity was obsolete as a cultural force. There never could be a Muslim Machiavelli because there was no institution to reify that wasn't foreign and from and for those massacring and colonizing you.

So emotional authenticity, much needed in times of historic turmoil and upheaval, can only lead back to Muhammad, and those of his interpreters who most resonate with minds assaulted by the Kuffar, like Ibn Taimiyyah whose severity and egotism was spurred by the Mongol destruction of Baghdad. It doesn't help any that Taimiyyah's intellectual progeny own the largest proven oil reserves on the planet, and that we're acting the part of the Mongols.


Yeah. And the strength of that "Islam in a vacuum" version of Islam is a result of oil money. The development of Islam for 1400 years was pretty normal. Even the interplay between secularity and Islam.

Nasser was the logical next step in the development of Arab political identity. The influence that Saudi Arabia and the Brotherhood has now is unnatural.
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Post #2221 by Artie » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:55 am

Big#D wrote:see, we're starting to get to the bottom of this. eb is a leafs fan who votes ndp. it's obvious now that his lines between belief and reality are blurred.


any chance you can recap this thread (ie where everybody stands-ie point of view) in a simple to follow chart
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2222 by Artie » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:30 am

and i was just starting to follow the discourse... :stare:
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2223 by RTWAP » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:34 am

embracedbias wrote:Of course it's 'like' every religion. It's a matter of degree, not type.

What do you think of the observation that Muslim Americans (presumably among the most progressive muslims in the world, no?) are similar to evangelical, jehovah, and mormons (presumably among the least progressive christians in the world)?


So Muslims aren't especially conservative in the country that tends to foster very conservative versions of most religions, relative to the rest of the world. That sounds like a bonus for Islam, doesn't it?
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Post #2224 by Craig » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:41 pm

embracedbias wrote:Only christians. American jews, buddhists, etc. aren't


Evangelical Christians are Christians and there's like 90 million of them in America.
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Post #2225 by Craig » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:49 pm

embracedbias wrote:?


Evangelical Christians are very conservative.
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Post #2226 by Craig » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:54 pm

I read your period as a comma. My bad.
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Post #2227 by chiclet » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:31 am

Oh, my goodness. I have 2,600 posts to read here. And will I be a better person at the end of it? Or will you be a worse one?

edit: for the record, I quite enjoyed those charts, Big Dee. Very pretty and fun. Like Joyce DeWitt.
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Post #2228 by Sturminator » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:35 am

dempsey_k wrote:I have faith in one thing: you can't reduce people to their history.


Groups of people do occasionally have new ideas beaten into them, yes. It would be pretty sweet if the Arabs went the way of the Japs and emerged from their coming cataclysm with a newfound love for blue hair, tentacle porn, robots and public groping. We shall see. At this point, they're like junkies who have not yet seen rock bottom.
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Post #2229 by Artie » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:50 pm

:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #2230 by AD » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:08 pm

embracedbias wrote:That's in french


Racist!!

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