Mohammedans (EB could be a prejudiced bigot, but at least he's not Dot)

bloop bloop blah
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Post #1951 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:32 am

Boom. Argument over EB.

We'll be waiting for your concession speech in the Lounge.





Edit: that further shows how strong false media perception is. In sub-Saharan Africa so one wonders how it affects the psyche of media over-exposed North Americans.
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Post #1952 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:51 am

You know so little about these Religions. At this point I'll reiterate that you need to be more informed.
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Post #1953 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:05 am

embracedbias wrote:I'm on my phone so I just realized that there is more to the report.

From page 47 (chapter 4) of the report


That actually disproves your point.

Its rather pretty impossible to pretend that Islam is causative of these views considering these variations from country to country.
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Post #1954 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:07 am

embracedbias wrote:Chapter 5


Boom. So how you pretend Islam is causative after all that proof..

I can't see it anymore. It's just blind prejudiced hatred at this point. You're running out of excuses EBsie.
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Post #1955 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:17 am

embracedbias wrote:Come on AD. Are you even trying anymore?

Variability across countries disproves the absurd claim that environmental factors have NO influence on religion whatsoever (a claim no one with a brain has ever made).

You seemed to be on board with the purpose of this exercise just a short while ago. When comparing Christians and Muslims from similar countries, you would predict very similar levels of shitty beliefs (which, on your account, are 100% environmental).

How do you explain the consistent differences between Muslims and Christians across these countries? I don't see what can account for such differences that doesn't appeal to the ideologies themselves.


Wait what? You believe that the Christian and Muslim population in Chad is in similar circumstances? (to name just that country as an example...)

Jesus EB, I guess Blacks in the US are more criminalized because of the violent Black culture, right. (And Black culture is whatever people that are Black think, feel and do and any time).
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Post #1956 by Craig » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:20 am

In every case Muslims sometimes....
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Post #1957 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:39 am

embracedbias wrote:You literally just used the exact same set of comparisons to demand a concession speech.


Because the stats show that Islam isn't causative. For fucks sake. You're purposefully trolling me aren't you.. please say that to reassure me.

Please.
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Post #1958 by Craig » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:51 am

He did come up with a correlation though. Granted, it was about women's issues and not violence, but still, that's something.
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Post #1959 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:51 am

Ok. Let's take this another way. Do you agree with the following: There are more variations from one country's population to the other than from one religion's population to the other.

(See specifically the very much on point chapter 4: is violence justified in defense of religion)
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Post #1960 by Sturminator » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:11 am

AD wrote:I'll give EB one thing, this constant disturbing (some would say disgusting) characterisation (on broads but also in schlock mass media) of Muslims (and Islam itself) as violent and radical is pushing violent and radical people with any agenda to seek out and join the most violent and radical elements of Islam. And it is perpetuating the myth.

By his circular definition of Islam (that it is what Muslims are at any one point in time), and if he and all easily influenced media consumers continue helping pushing this idea of "that crazy violent Islam" and, by doing that, they continue playing into the hands of radical Islamic doctrine and radical anti-Islamic doctrine, he'll essentially have contributed his little part in "making" Islam what he thinks it is.

If you follow his unfollowable circular definition.


Before 9/11, no westerner outside of Israel gave much of a shit about the threat of islamic terrorism, though, did they? You act as though the myth, if that is indeed what it is, was invented and perpetuated by westerners. This is patently false. That many westerners have succumbed to paranoia and simplistic generalizations about muslims does not mean they started the fire.
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Post #1961 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:35 am

embracedbias wrote:Yes.

Do you agree with the following: Some of the variation across religious groups is attributable to the differences in religious doctrine.


Possibly. I don't know. Depends on what. On men-women relations its probable, yes. (Polygamy, male prominence at home). It seems not so important on political views, views on homosexuals, views on tribal rituals, views on genital mutilation, etc.
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Post #1962 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:36 am

Sturminator wrote:Before 9/11, no westerner outside of Israel gave much of a shit about the threat of islamic terrorism, though, did they? You act as though the myth, if that is indeed what it is, was invented and perpetuated by westerners. This is patently false. That many westerners have succumbed to paranoia and simplistic generalizations about muslims does not mean they started the fire.


You won't get much answer on this pretty simple point. Except that I dispute your starting point, but whatever. Yeah.. sure?
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Post #1963 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:45 am

embracedbias wrote:I think i'm due an apology for all your racist bigot vitriol. :colbert:
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Post #1964 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:38 pm

embracedbias wrote:??

I just handed AD his ass. How do you interpret the foregoing exchange? My god.


My ass is still quite well placed bigot.
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Post #1965 by Craig » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:34 pm

embracedbias wrote:??

I just handed AD his ass. How do you interpret the foregoing exchange? My god.


Lol.
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Post #1966 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:47 pm

I don't think I've ever said that Muslims aren't shittier, EB. In fact, I've contended that on average, Muslims are pretty shitty and most definitely shittier than Christians. But that the shittiness has nothing to do with Islam or their faith in general. You're the one claiming that Muslims are ok but that Islam is shitty.

Just like the fact that Blacks in the US are, on average, poorer, less educated and more criminalized. Is it caused by the colour of their skin EB? Is it caused by hip hop culture? Is it caused by their ancestors speaking Swahili? From everything you've said in this thread, you should be claiming that we don't need to find out because the fact that the black population in the US is how it is is proof of something.
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Post #1967 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:56 pm

Dog wrote:Are muslims in the Sub-Saharan African countries mentionned generally of lower socio-economic standing than christians? Could be, I don't know.


I'd be ready to hypothethise (in EB's favour) that Islam as taught right now by certain radical elements is garnering more appeal in underprivileged groups than Christianity as taught right now by certain radical elements. I think the political climate in general has been conducive to that. (See underprivileged christian loners converting to radical islam ideology even).

So in those countries, it is entirely possible that the poor uneducated politically disenfranchised christians still come out thinking about the world in more liberal democratic anti violent ways than their muslim counterparts.

I'm not ready to deny that any way.
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Post #1968 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:16 pm

embracedbias wrote:So if the shittiness has nothing to do with Islam, how can you explain the fact that Muslims don't come out looking very good when we compare Muslims and Christians in similar environments? Don't you see how much dancing you have to do to get around such a simple point?


I don't know what similar environments you're pointing too. But if you believe sub-saharan muslims are in similar environement as sub-saharan christians than you need to learn about how the Arabs screwed black muslims and did not adequately nurture a culture of "protection" like european colonial settlers did. (Not that I'm saying european colonialism was good for Africa - just better than the horrors of Arab colonialism).

But why try to explain things and get into history and knowledge, eh EB?

So how about you explain why Muslims in one country have 3200% more favourable outlook on violence in defense of religion than muslims in another neighbouring country? Islam sure does seem to be irrelevant when compared to every other socio-economic political factor we've been mentioning since 2013...
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Post #1969 by jester » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:24 pm

I'm fascinated by the infatuation with female genital mutilation. We are all aware that it, literally, has not much to do with Islam at a doctrine level, right? Muslims may mutilate genitalia, but that practice comes from other sources. It's actually a very good example of the mutability of religions and religious practice, and how religions mold to already extant practices and beliefs.

Are Muslims in more tribal/traditional areas far less progressive on gender politics.. Yeah.
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Post #1970 by jester » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:33 pm

Assuming Hillary is the candidate, there is going to be a TON of pressure on the GOP candidate to pick a woman running mate, you figure (just to steal a few women that might otherwise bolt for gender solidarity). Short bench for the GOP on that front.
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Post #1971 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:37 pm

jester wrote:I'm fascinated by the infatuation with female genital mutilation. We are all aware that it, literally, has not much to do with Islam at a doctrine level, right? Muslims may mutilate genitalia, but that practice comes from other sources. It's actually a very good example of the mutability of religions and religious practice, and how religions mold to already extant practices and beliefs.

Are Muslims in more tribal/traditional areas far less progressive on gender politics.. Yeah.


Actually, I think the data shows that christians are more prone to genital mutilation. (Not that Christianity has anything to do with it).
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Post #1972 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:57 pm

embracedbias wrote:You were 100% on board with the comparison when you thought it supported your argument.


What! Where?
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Post #1973 by jester » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:01 pm

embracedbias wrote:The mutability of religious beliefs and practices, as I have been arguing throughout.


Not really, because whenever you are tasked with addressing that (a historic process) you run away whining about reading.

Focusing on a tribal practice that predates a religion and then getting mad at the religion is pretty ridiculous. In what ways does Islamic doctrine support FGM? Did the practice increase, or decrease with Islam's spread? Is the practice evidence of the weakness of doctrine in defining behavior? Why aren't Christian's Kosher? Why do South American Catholics embrace different Saints than Europeans?

While we are figuring out Africa, why did Rwanda become such a disaster? I'd just like to know. (I'm assuming the answer is cartoons of the prophet.)
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Post #1974 by Cao » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:20 pm

embracedbias wrote:Chapter 5


Curious - are Christians and Muslims similar in socioeconomic status in these countries?
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Post #1975 by Jaymz » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:31 pm

I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I have read most of this thread…because I’m a masochist I guess. That said…

-When I posted that Poll, I hadn’t realized the webpage was a just an executive summary. My apologies as I should have read through it much more thoroughly before I posted it with my comments.
-There does seem to be a pattern in this poll that Muslims in general do practice in a more conservative manner than their Christian counterparts.
-It is missing information on the educational and economic standing of the participants in the poll, which does lessen its value. But, it certainly provides more value than the previous poll in this thread IMO.

My opinion from this poll is that Non-Religious factors play a much more significant role in a person’s level of belief in the more Medieval aspects of a religion, but Islam does seem to bring it out a bit more. I don’t have enough knowledge/information to say why that is, but from this (admittedly singular) data point, it does seem to exist.

Of course, I’d love to see more/better data to support or refute this.

I’m also using very non-committal language in this, because I’m very hesitant to make sweeping generalizations like this without having a proper amount of knowledge/information.
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Post #1976 by AD » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:43 pm

Move to ban Jaymz from this discussion.
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Post #1977 by Cao » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:54 pm

Jaymz wrote:I’m also using very non-committal language in this, because I’m very hesitant to make sweeping generalizations like this without having a proper amount of knowledge/information.


Moslems are more likely to self-identify as fruits

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