Mohammedans (EB could be a prejudiced bigot, but at least he's not Dot)

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Post #2351 by AD » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:09 am

embracedbias wrote:What proportion of ISIS and AQ fighters do you think have read Lenin? What proportion even know who Lenin is?


That's a silly question on so many levels.
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Post #2352 by jester » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:25 am

embracedbias wrote:What proportion of ISIS and AQ fighters do you think have read Lenin? What proportion even know who Lenin is?


[SIZE="5"] :stare: [/size]
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Post #2353 by jester » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:33 pm

Lap what up? I'm just laughing at you thinking someone needs to read something to be influenced by it. I argued a long time ago that colonialism and its after effects play a large role in the Middle East.

And, no eb, no one has ever argued ideology is irrelevant. Your assertion of its special status is based on FNC ignorance.
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Post #2354 by AD » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:57 pm

Lol whut?

The question itself says more about you than anything.
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Post #2355 by Dog » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:02 am

embracedbias wrote:So you acknowledge that ideology is relevant but don't think that the ideology that the individuals in question most strongly identify with (and explicitly claim is a motivating factor) should have special status. Sweet!


Is there something special about socialism that makes people violent? Your arguments here roughly translate into claiming that socialism (in all its variants, including your very own ndp) makes people more prone to violence compared to other ideologies because radical socialists are violent and all socialists share the same root beliefs.
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Post #2356 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:51 am

Dog wrote:Is there something special about socialism that makes people violent? Your arguments here roughly translate into claiming that socialism (in all its variants, including your very own nnp) makes people more prone to violence compared to other ideologies because radical socialists are violent and all socialists share the same root beliefs.


We had this theme of the argument in July-August 2014 I think.
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Post #2357 by Dog » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:06 am

AD wrote:We had this theme of the argument in July-August 2014 I think.


I was in Disneyworld in July-August 2014.

:crossarms:
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Post #2358 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:11 am

embracedbias wrote:Do you agree with the things he said?


EB, I don't read this thread anymore. I just come in to annoy you.
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Post #2359 by jester » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:03 am

embracedbias wrote:So you acknowledge that ideology is relevant but don't think that the ideology that the individuals in question most strongly identify with (and explicitly claim is a motivating factor) should have special status. Sweet!


That should have read Islam. Given the context of the thread, I would have assumed you were smart enough to pick up on that.
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Post #2360 by jester » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:11 am

dempsey_k wrote:Socialists have slaughtered over a hundred million people in recent decades so it's a good question. Socialism demands a monopoly of violence, and control over the morality of people's lives down to their food choices and labor. It's traditionally extremely violent against Muslims in Central Asia especially. Most of the worst slaughters going on right now in Iraq and Syria are being undertaken by socialists and post-socialists. If we were really concerned about violent ideologies we should put eb on an ice floe.


Yet they've also spurred positive political reform to soften the rough edges of raw capitalism. Everything in moderation.
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Post #2361 by Craig » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:32 pm

embracedbias wrote:What does socialism have to do with the slaughtering?


That's what we keep asking you.
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Post #2362 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:58 pm

My kingdom for a well thought out theological argument!
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Post #2363 by Sturminator » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:08 pm

Nobody wants your shitty rental property in Chicoutimi, AD.
If a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation.
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Post #2364 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:08 pm

:why:
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Post #2365 by jester » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:09 pm

embracedbias wrote:What does socialism have to do with the slaughtering?


For reals?
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Post #2366 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:10 pm

EB, if this is a convoluted exercise to prove the failings of the Canadian public school system. Bravo. You've succeeded. You can stop now.
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Post #2367 by Sturminator » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:11 pm

It might be fair to ask what Karl Marx has to do with the slaughter.

But then socialism, like Islam, does not begin and end with its progenitor.
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Post #2368 by jester » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:14 pm

Sturminator wrote:It might be fair to ask what Karl Marx has to do with the slaughter.

But then socialism, like Islam, does not begin and end with its progenitor.


Indeed. It's always fun to discuss Marx in a course and attempt to wade through the 20th c. detritus heaped upon his ideas.
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Post #2369 by Sturminator » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:20 pm

We have to keep in mind here that eb's concept of socialism pretty much does begin and end with Marx, while his concept of Islam almost completely ignores the first 1300 years or so of the religion's existence in favor of the present.
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Post #2370 by Craig » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Sturminator wrote:We have to keep in mind here that eb's concept of socialism pretty much does begin and end with Marx, while his concept of Islam almost completely ignores the first 1300 years or so of the religion's existence in favor of the present.


I don't think it's that so much as he discards the impact of socialism on their psyche because they don't identify themselves as socialist or carry out killings in it's name. He thinks that people killing in the name of Islam is the fault of Islam, rather than a symptom of other things.
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Post #2371 by Dog » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:47 pm

AD wrote:EB, if this is a convoluted exercise to prove the failings of the Canadian public school system. Bravo. You've succeeded. You can stop now.


A timely interjection as I was grappling with whether to send my spoiled child to public or private kindergarden.

Thank you, eb. Thank you.
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Post #2372 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:47 pm

Craig wrote:I don't think it's that so much as he discards the impact of socialism on their psyche because they don't identify themselves as socialist or carry out killings in it's name. He thinks that people killing in the name of Islam is the fault of Islam, rather than a symptom of other things.


No no no.. you don't get it. Islam is some sort of transcendant doctrine that makes all people who claim to be muslim into death-zombie-machines. This is very unlike any other doctrine (including other monotheistic abrahamic religious quasi identical doctrines based on essentially the same teachings!!) they're all different somehow.

And thus, we need to neuter muslims and make sure they don't immigrate to Saskatchewan lest they impregnate our trashy sluts with their untermensch semen.
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Post #2373 by jester » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:26 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Islam and socialism are both the empty variable (and "Canada" or "the republic" or whatever, like I've said before). They don't matter. They just have to have a good goosebumpy sensation of meaning to provide the doer.


Perhaps, but I think "empty" goes a bit too far. They are part of the social, cultural, intellectual, etc. milieu in which the doer operates and through which understands his/her environment and activities. Thus, they provide important context for actions, and, perhaps more importantly, a means of expressing a rationale for those actions. That's a far cry from the causative link that eb grapples for, however.
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Post #2374 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:16 pm

embracedbias wrote:No, he was right.


I don't know what he said. But I though it was a good excuse to call you a commie nazi son of a whore.

:gary:
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Post #2375 by jester » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:10 pm

dempsey_k wrote:By empty I don't mean they don't effect, rather that they simply aren't the machinery of violence. They're not the how or why, they're just the what.


I understand, but they are part of the "why" to some extent and it is important to acknowledge that. Socialist ideology does not tip over into craziness for the same reason that, say, nationalist ideology can. Now, the caveat I would place on that is that quite often these ideologies are tools of individuals or collections of individuals that wield them cynically for their own ends.
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Post #2376 by AD » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:16 pm

jester wrote:I understand, but they are part of the "why" to some extent and it is important to acknowledge that. Socialist ideology does not tip over into craziness for the same reason that, say, nationalist ideology can.


I don't know about that. It's all about defining who the in group is and who the out group is. Then apply violence to the out group to defend the in group.
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Post #2377 by Craig » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:20 pm

embracedbias wrote:Now we just need an understanding of culture that doesn't involve religion!


That doesn't involve one religion in particular. Everyone and everyone has already said religion is a factor.
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Post #2378 by Craig » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:20 pm

Which is like, two everyones. That's a lot of people.
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Post #2379 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:10 pm

Jacobin: Don't Blame Islam. Al-Qaeda and ISIS are products of US and Saudi imperialism.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/united-states-saudi-arabia-isis/
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Post #2380 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:34 am

embracedbias wrote:American Imperialism and Jewish Zionism are absolutely major components. That point does not have a logical relation to whether or not it's reasonable to consider Islam a key component as well. The author, as is so often the case, is only arguing against the proposition that Islam necessarily leads to terrorism and militancy... a claim that no one is making.

What I don't like is the double standard. Are there cases where American Imperialism didn't lead to terrorism? If yes, does that mean that American Imperialism can't be blamed for terrorism in the middle east? Obviously not.

Turns out that there are many very different outcomes of American Imperialism... but this doesn't mean that it isn't a major component of radicalism in the middle east.

Turns out that there are many very different outcomes of Islamic ideology... but this doesn't mean that it isn't a major component of radicalism in the middle east.


Regardless of whether this is true, I believe that certain leading neocon atheist intellectuals need to get their priorities straight.
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Post #2381 by jester » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:41 am

AD wrote:I don't know about that. It's all about defining who the in group is and who the out group is. Then apply violence to the out group to defend the in group.


To some extent, sure. But in other cases, not so much. Violence stemming from socialism, for example, has often been to police the in group and/or coerce conformity.

In practice, all of this gets bastardized and the on the ground reality is much messier than ideology would have it.
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Post #2382 by jester » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:03 am

dempsey_k wrote:I don't think any ideology ever sufficiently explained the why more than a person's genetics and culture and especially experiences (what we may start crediting to epigenetics in the future).


I agree, largely because I think an ideology appeals to an individual because of those factors (or is ingrained through simple cultural hegemony). That being said, ideology then becomes a key pathway towards explaining and rationalizing behaviors. Its part of the tangled Web of culture once it takes root. Thus, the problem of eb harping on Islamists claims and not bothering with what's under the hood.
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Post #2383 by AD » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:54 pm

dempsey_k wrote:ah, the Islamic practice of burning people alive rears its head once again, as prescribed in exactly no Suras or Hadiths.


[EB]Islam is whatever a dude that says he's muslim is doing right now. In fact, at this moment, Islam prescribes masturbation when you're single, horny and have access to a computer[/EB]

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