Racist sexist & homophobic men whitesplain to each other that it's all ok

bloop bloop blah
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Post #701 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:27 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:How is speech any less dangerous online than off? Hate speech is condemned in real life because it perpetuates hatred. It does the exact same thing online.


What nationality are you?
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Post #702 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:28 pm

Good to know that the Dr is (or considers himself) ruggedly handsome.
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Post #703 by RTWAP » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:29 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:My views on this come from lengthy conversations with women/racial minorities/LGBT community members who have voiced that while they understand that these types of jokes are made ironically, they still find them deeply offensive and marginalizing.


Are they offended because issues that are very important to them were used as fodder for a joke? If so, then whatever anyone feels is important is off-limits to everyone for humour. Wonderful.

I feel marginalized when people make fun of my hockey team. Please refrain from laughing at them henceforth.
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Post #704 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:29 pm

dempsey_k wrote:This is Hitch's theory.

But you go beyond his theory by saying no women are funny. He made exception for Jews, lesbians, and uglies. Until this post you said none. So which specific women comedians do you think are funny?


I'm just exaggerating. Generally women aren't funny, but there are exceptions.

Sarah Silverman is funny. She hates herself a bit.
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Post #705 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:31 pm

RTWAP wrote:Are they offended because issues that are very important to them were used as fodder for a joke? If so, then whatever anyone feels is important is off-limits to everyone for humour. Wonderful.

I feel marginalized when people make fun of my hockey team. Please refrain from laughing at them henceforth.


Nobody gives a crap if someone feels marginalized because someone made fun of their hockey team. Given the history of discrimination and marginalization faced by women/non-whites/the LGBT community, you should very much give a crap if you are contributing to their further marginalization.
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Post #706 by shredz [Bot] » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:36 pm

[YOUTUBE]JtAJqeTpDis[/YOUTUBE]

we want the gold suckah!
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Post #707 by RTWAP » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:39 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:People have repeatedly alleged that these kinds of jokes don't/shouldn't hurt people. I have a wealth of anecdotal evidence that's wrong. I presented it.


Not "don't" - nobody can speak for how everyone else feels.
Not "shouldn't" - nobody can speak for how everyone else should feel.

But how they feel is their choice and reflects their views. To limit the freedom of another based on how one feels is just a way of imposing one's views on others. At that point the only valid reason for avoiding offense is tact, based on social situation.

This is a tactless website. That is the social situation here.

Arguing that the "victim" doesn't see the humour is irrelevant. The only possibly useful argument that I can see would be about those underlying views. But the would-be censors aren't typically willing to engage in that. They would rather try to bludgeon the humour with simplistic accusations of racism, or appeals to protect offended feelings.
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Post #708 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:41 pm

So you're argument is: We're racist, homophobic, and sexist. That's not our problem, it's women's, blacks', and the LGBT community's.
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Post #709 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:43 pm

I can't tell at this point which people agree/disagree that this place is legitimately racist/sexist/homophobic, and of those that agree, how many of them believe that's just fine because who the fuck cares if we're racist/sexist/homophobic.
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Post #710 by Useful Idiot » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:44 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:I have yet to meet any person of colour or who identifies as queer who's on board with "ironic" racism or homophobia. I have met some women who seem to be okay with ironic sexism, but in my experience they are the type of women who think standards of chivalry are a good thing.


I think that you started to recognise your own selection bias near the end of that post. I have already cited one example of a homosexual man here who loves to poke fun at his own sexuality and partake in the very crude humour which pervades the Devils section. Others may not be writing diatribes on Jezebel about the evils of heterosexual white males, but they do exist.

One common mistake which people often make is that they tend to lock themselves up in communities of like-minded people and then conclude that they form a majority or consensus. There are plenty of very strident feminists in the tech community, and their existence has convinced some credulous male feminists that they form a majority of women. Likewise, there are plenty of very strident political progressives in the same community. There is the odd public libertarian or anarcho-capitalist, but they are few and far between. Those who disagree tend to keep their views close to their chests.
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Post #711 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:54 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:I can't tell at this point which people agree/disagree that this place is legitimately racist/sexist/homophobic, and of those that agree, how many of them believe that's just fine because who the fuck cares if we're racist/sexist/homophobic.


You can't tell because you see everything in dichotomies.
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Post #712 by Sturminator » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:57 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:How is speech any less dangerous online than off? Hate speech is condemned in real life because it perpetuates hatred. It does the exact same thing online.


In civilized countries, hate speech is defended in real life when it has no immediate targets. There are no immediate targets here. Nothing to hurt but feelings.
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Post #713 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:59 pm

Sturminator wrote:In civilized countries, hate speech is defended in real life when it has no immediate targets. There are no immediate target here.


Defended legally or socially? Because I'm talking about the second.
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Post #714 by Sturminator » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:06 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:Defended legally or socially? Because I'm talking about the second.


You're being histrionic calling what gets said here "hate speech" in the first place. You paint Dr Chim and the boys at Stormfront with the same brush and get confused that we're not all as mad as you are about it.
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Post #715 by Useful Idiot » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:07 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:I can't tell at this point which people agree/disagree that this place is legitimately racist/sexist/homophobic, and of those that agree, how many of them believe that's just fine because who the fuck cares if we're racist/sexist/homophobic.


I am willing to tolerate intolerance to provide a place where people can post silly and uninformed remarks. You are free to remain offended that this is not a “safe space” for your those who share your views on language. Any who feel aggrieved are free to complain and to state their cases. We can be more active in scolding users who send photos of their genitalia to others (lest we become Reddit), and at minimum announce that sexual advances are unwelcome. That is an improvement which could and should be made, and I am glad that the issue was raised. However, mockery of immutable attributes is fair game in my eyes.

Most of the members of the Habs section are short men who complain about short men. That will never cease to be amusing to me. I will continue to point it out until it is neither true nor welcome.
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Post #716 by shredz [Bot] » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:09 pm

Today:

Image

"I am sorry if I offended anyone with my use of the N-word on Instagram," the singer said in a statement on Saturday, Jan. 18. "It was not meant as a racial slur...I am not a racist."
She added: "There's no way to defend the use of the word. It was all about intention...It was used as a term of endearment toward my son who is white. I appreciate that it's a provocative word and I apologize if it gave people the wrong impression. Forgive me."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541662/Madonna-fire-calling-son-N-word-Instagram-picture.html
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Post #717 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:13 pm

Madonna is being hateful, but the guy calling her a racist bitch I guess isn't.
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Post #718 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:13 pm

Sturminator wrote:You're being histrionic calling what gets said here "hate speech" in the first place. You paint Dr Chim and the boys at Stormfront with the same brush and get confused that we're not all as mad as you are about it.


I have repeatedly said this place is not Stormfront. The only time I compared it to Stormfront (I believe) was when AD said that we didn't need to worry about offending women and minorities because they don't post here. That was used to make a point, not as a direct comparison. And hate speech is a fluid term, but I would say using slurs like nigger and faggot as epithets qualifies by almost any definition.
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Post #719 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:13 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:Madonna is being hateful, but the guy calling her a racist bitch I guess isn't.


Why wouldn't he be?
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Post #720 by clawfirst » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:15 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:Madonna is being hateful, but the guy calling her a racist bitch I guess isn't.


Did you read it in her fake British accent though? I think it makes a difference
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Post #721 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:16 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:Why wouldn't he be?


He was justifiably upset.
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Post #722 by shredz [Bot] » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:19 pm

Calling him Dirty Soap might be a greater offence.
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Post #723 by Fruity Pebbles » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:22 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:I have repeatedly said this place is not Stormfront. The only time I compared it to Stormfront (I believe) was when AD said that we didn't need to worry about offending women and minorities because they don't post here. That was used to make a point, not as a direct comparison. And hate speech is a fluid term, but I would say using slurs like nigger and faggot as epithets qualifies by almost any definition.


No, hate speech is a legal term.
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Post #724 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:26 pm

Dot wrote:No, hate speech is a legal term.


It can also be used as a non-legal term, which is the way in which I have been discussing it. I apologize if its use as a legal term has made my intentions unclear.
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Post #725 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:28 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:He was justifiably upset.


So if a black person called Madonna a bitch, it would not be racist for her (or anyone else) to call them a nigger?
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Post #726 by Sturminator » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:33 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:I have repeatedly said this place is not Stormfront. The only time I compared it to Stormfront (I believe) was when AD said that we didn't need to worry about offending women and minorities because they don't post here. That was used to make a point, not as a direct comparison. And hate speech is a fluid term, but I would say using slurs like nigger and faggot as epithets qualifies by almost any definition.


The problem is that no, those words do not constitute much of anything out of context. Was Sinclair engaging in hate speech when he ended every post with the word cockfag? Or does "fag" not count because it is a shortening of a "truly" hateful word?

You don't seem to really understand much about the culture you are criticizing here. The faggot thread you cite features people referring to fucking hockeysense as a faggot. Given that we all know the abortion story, who actually believes that HS is a homosexual? That's hate speech allright, but it's not directed at gays.

I'm not a fan of JH's use of the word nigger in that thread, but if you don't like it and think he should be upbraided for it, why don't you just fucking do it yourself? Artie actually did lightly criticize him for his use of the word nigger in that post, though I doubt you picked it up because it didn't involve hand-wringing and ham-handed denunciations.
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Post #727 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:36 pm

As I covered earlier in this thread, if you use a slur as a pejorative, it means you believe the person should/will be insulted for being associated with that race/sex/minority. Hate speech does not need to be directed at a member of the group it is inciting/perpetuating hatred against.
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Post #728 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:37 pm

And if you expect me to hunt down and personally chastise every single racist/sexist/homophobic post on this site, you are just sidestepping the point by being unreasonable.
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Post #729 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:40 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:So if a black person called Madonna a bitch, it would not be racist for her (or anyone else) to call them a nigger?


Depends on which group is more oppressed. What do you think?

I say the black guy wins.
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Post #730 by Sturminator » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:50 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:As I covered earlier in this thread, if you use a slur as a pejorative, it means you believe the person should/will be insulted for being associated with that race/sex/minority. Hate speech does not need to be directed at a member of the group it is inciting/perpetuating hatred against.


So how pure do we want this place to be? No direct racist/sexist speech, and no indirect, either? Does this mean chicpea and I have to do our frotting through a hole in the sheet now?

Nothing that you say is of any interest to me because what you're doing is indulging in third-hand outrage. Nothing said here has been directed at you, nor at any of your friends. You are offended on behalf of an ideal, a theoretical black lesbian in the sky who sheds a big, wet tear every time someone says #niggerbitchwhore. It must be hard defending the universe from evil.
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Post #731 by Sturminator » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:54 pm

Roderick Jaynes wrote:And if you expect me to hunt down and personally chastise every single racist/sexist/homophobic post on this site, you are just sidestepping the point by being unreasonable.


How's about you deal with the ones you see and stop trying to save the broad, ok?
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Post #732 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:57 pm

Sturminator wrote:So how pure do we want this place to be? No direct racist/sexist speech, and no indirect, either?

I would advocate for that. At the very least it should be discouraged, which is far from the case.
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Post #733 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:10 pm

vonbonds wrote:If you want serious talk stick to HF. I genuinely apologize for offending people who are lesser than me.


Indeed, my good friend.

HockeyBroads.com, the core of it, is generally comprised of human beings that are superior to 98-99% of the human population. We are educated, possess excellent taste in food, music and cinema, and are obscenely wealthy.

We are also eternally grateful to be living in the finest age of all. : )
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Post #734 by Twitter bArt » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:27 pm

I am the 1%, Edouardo
:mkbét::lr: :lr:

OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone

It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.

Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."

...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...

Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.


:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #735 by Twitter bArt » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:30 pm

embracedbias wrote:Everyone is bigoted. We can't help but favor ingroups and we have a natural bias against outgroups. Humans are a tribal species.

I seriously doubt the terms you are using (racist/sexist/homophobic) apply to many people here. Hardly anyone (i imagine) truly believes that black people/women/gays are inherently inferior.


I don't know that everyone here is bigoted
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #736 by Bernie Bernbaum » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:33 pm

embracedbias wrote:Everyone is bigoted. We can't help but favor ingroups and we have a natural bias against outgroups. Humans are a tribal species.

I seriously doubt the terms you are using (racist/sexist/homophobic) apply to many people here. Hardly anyone (i imagine) truly believes that black people/women/gays are inherently inferior.


http://www.notracistbut.com/
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Post #737 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:43 pm

MacArturo wrote:I am the 1%, Edouardo


It is because of this, and several other reasons, that you are a good man and my good friend.
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Post #738 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:46 pm

embracedbias wrote:Everyone is bigoted. We can't help but favor ingroups and we have a natural bias against outgroups. Humans are a tribal species.

I seriously doubt the terms you are using (racist/sexist/homophobic) apply to many people here. Hardly anyone (i imagine) truly believes that black people/women/gays are inherently inferior.


sidneycrosbyfan did. Haven't seen him post for a long time.
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Post #739 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:03 pm

Goddammit, my wife is beautiful, fellas.


<-------
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Post #740 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:09 am

Fellas, just popping in to wish everyone a wonderful Sunday. : )
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Post #741 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:16 am

dempsey_k wrote:People don't want to be told that they're those things because those things are bad, but most people, like nearly everyone, skates by through life erroneously thinking they aren't doing anything to piss people off by reducing them to race, gender, orientation, culture, etc. Just saw a study done recently that Asian-Americans are more likely to develop psychological problems because of the frequent microaggression comments about how they're math superstar octopus rapists CHING CHONG DING DONG. If the first thing you can think of when an Asian person walks in the room is either Anime or Gran Torino, you're a problem. Saying "oh it's all in good fun, develop thicker skin" only compounds the problem, especially coming from people who don't face that.


Most of those problems are caused by upbringing (parents), certainly not some guy on the internet.
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Post #742 by RTWAP » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:32 am

Roderick Jaynes wrote:It can also be used as a non-legal term, which is the way in which I have been discussing it. I apologize if its use as a legal term has made my intentions unclear.


You're using it so loosely that it has no meaning. Comedy with vulgar words is not hate. So it's hate speech without the hate. So it's just speech then.
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Post #743 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:40 am

dempsey_k wrote:Asians aren't unique in having the mythological "Asian parent", and I think everyone except olds know how to block out meanies on the internet.


Not mythological. If the (Chinese, to be precise) parents are first generation immigrants then it's quite likely.

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