2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #351 by Hovercraft » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:27 pm

I would have liked to see Hagg and Morin get a few more games last year over Manning and Macdonald but that's probably on Hak not Hex. At least Hextall did what he could and let the UFA d men leave and didn't sign any new UFA Dmen.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #352 by JLHockeyKnight » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:05 pm

This thread is more active in the off season than during the season.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #353 by JLHockeyKnight » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:07 pm

Hovercraft wrote:I would have liked to see Hagg and Morin get a few more games last year over Manning and Macdonald but that's probably on Hak not Hex. At least Hextall did what he could and let the UFA d men leave and didn't sign any new UFA Dmen.


I'm kind of expecting 2 of Hagg, Morin, and Manning to rotate in the lineup in early games in the season until 1 falls down below the other 2. Once Hagg and Morin get some games under their belt, I'm still kind of expecting Manning to be the 7D.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #354 by CantSeeColors » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:54 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:FH, is your argument that the Flyers should have pushed these guys to the NHL faster, or is it that the fact that they haven't hit the NHL yet means they likely won't turn into top 4 d-men? It seems to be the former, but this time last year, Hagg was, by all accounts, coming off a dreadful AHL season. Did you want him to get promoted after that?


Definitely the former, no idea if they're going to be top-4.

Re: Hagg, Chris Pryor told Craig Custance in mid-January that Hagg was 'just about NHL-ready.' Considering a) the incoming logjam of prospects and b) the Flyers' mediocrity, if they thought Hagg was NHL ready, I cannot think why they wouldn't stick him in the NHL for the back half of last season to see how he looked. You can't draw a conclusion on a guy after 40 games, but it'd at least be an indication.

At the outset, I said we should break camp with Hagg/Morin/Sanheim this year. But thinking about that, it's a real big ask for 3 guys with zero NHL experience to come in and start playing at the same time. If Hagg had played 40 games and looked decent, maybe you feel a little better about giving him some responsibility. But instead, they might be almost obligated to put Sanheim in the AHL for another season, regardless of whether he's ready, because they don't want to start a rookie on a pairing that's going up against top-line scorers on other teams. If you put those 3 in the league all at once, you can't come up with a top-6 that doesn't have either a) 2 complete rookies on the same pairing or b) complete rookie on top pair.

Personally, I would have chucked both Hagg and Morin into the NHL once it became clear that the Flyers were a bubble team at absolute best (and Laughton/Leier if there was space), but I'm sure reasonable minds can disagree there.

But you just provided the quote that proves my point! Pryor said hagg was just about ready, not that he was actually ready. This also, again, ignores the point that he could possibly develop better in the AHL even if he can hang in the NHL. See Luke schenn.

The current logjam isn't the result of being too cautious, it's the simple result of having so many prospects at the same position at the same time
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #355 by Rogers Pancreas » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:43 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Also really important to note that Hextall has absolutely done all of the big stuff right and put the organizational in a much better position than it was when he tookover. Easy to carp about this stuff and some of the smaller deals, but overall it's overwhelmingly positive and this most definitely qualifies as nitpicking, but it's mid-July and had a slow day yesterday...

You are correct, there.

I was having fun thinking of the top-5 worst and best of Holmgren and then comparing them to Hextall's over the weekend.

Holmgren
1. Coburn for Zhitnik
2. 1st, Upshall, and Parent for Forsberg
2. Timonen and Hartnell for 1st
4. Simmonds and B.Schenn for Richards (painful but true)
5. Hiring Laviolette
HM: Bobrovsky (the find)

1. Boucher, Emery, Leighton
2. 2nd for Bobrovsky
2. Bryzgalov...
4. L.Schenn for JVR
5. Streit, LeCavalier, MacDonald (for saddling the franchise with all that)

Hextall
1. Weal and a 3rd for LeCavalier and L.Schenn
2. Gagner and a 4th for Grossmann and Pronger
3. Philippe Myers
4. A 1st, a 3rd, and Gudas for Coburn
5. Two 1sts for B.Schenn
HM: A 3rd for Rinaldo, Two 2nds for Timonen

1. Umberger and a 4th for Hartnell
2. MacDonald, Vandevelde, Bellemare (for not addressing a bad situation)
3. Boyd Gordon
4. Dale Weise
5. Hiring Dave Hakstol (nitpicking at this point)
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #356 by Rogers Pancreas » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:44 pm

JLHockeyKnight wrote:This thread is more active in the off season than during the season.

Just like the Flyers...
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #357 by GoneFullHextall » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:09 am

I don't think the Flyers could of called up Hagg and Morin due to cap reasons. the Streit/Flip deal was a wash pretty much with the cap. They obviously were not going to send down AMAC.
Of course there is Myers, but he really needs to spend time in the AHL playing against men in a physical league and show he can stay healthy and compete at a higher level.
I am still not convinced that all of Sanheim, Morin and Hagg will be with the big club next year. Even if they come in and have a great camp. Unless they are really serious about it and just outright waive Manning since that would be easier to do then trying to move AMAC.
I think in the end they give all the kids a shot, but only 2 of them are on the big club next year. At the very least it sure feels good to have some really good young prospects to look forward to at every position since Hextall took over.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #358 by JLHockeyKnight » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:52 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:Also really important to note that Hextall has absolutely done all of the big stuff right and put the organizational in a much better position than it was when he tookover. Easy to carp about this stuff and some of the smaller deals, but overall it's overwhelmingly positive and this most definitely qualifies as nitpicking, but it's mid-July and had a slow day yesterday...

You are correct, there.

I was having fun thinking of the top-5 worst and best of Holmgren and then comparing them to Hextall's over the weekend.

Holmgren
1. Coburn for Zhitnik
2. 1st, Upshall, and Parent for Forsberg
2. Timonen and Hartnell for 1st
4. Simmonds and B.Schenn for Richards (painful but true)
5. Hiring Laviolette
HM: Bobrovsky (the find)

1. Boucher, Emery, Leighton
2. 2nd for Bobrovsky
2. Bryzgalov...
4. L.Schenn for JVR
5. Streit, LeCavalier, MacDonald (for saddling the franchise with all that)

Hextall
1. Weal and a 3rd for LeCavalier and L.Schenn
2. Gagner and a 4th for Grossmann and Pronger
3. Philippe Myers
4. A 1st, a 3rd, and Gudas for Coburn
5. Two 1sts for B.Schenn
HM: A 3rd for Rinaldo, Two 2nds for Timonen

1. Umberger and a 4th for Hartnell
2. MacDonald, Vandevelde, Bellemare (for not addressing a bad situation)
3. Boyd Gordon
4. Dale Weise
5. Hiring Dave Hakstol (nitpicking at this point)


Idk if you've seen Hartnell's buyout, but I think you (and a lot of people) are giving that trade a lot more heat than it deserves. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'm glad Hextall had the vision to know when Hartnell was gonna drop off and moved the contract. Sure we were stuck with Umberger but at a smaller cap hit and good have to give to get in any trade.

Also worth noting Umberger making our team worse contributed to us getting Provorov. I'll take dealing with Umberger so we could get Provorov any day of the week. Again, hindsight.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #359 by FlyHigh » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:10 am

CantSeeColors wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:FH, is your argument that the Flyers should have pushed these guys to the NHL faster, or is it that the fact that they haven't hit the NHL yet means they likely won't turn into top 4 d-men? It seems to be the former, but this time last year, Hagg was, by all accounts, coming off a dreadful AHL season. Did you want him to get promoted after that?


Definitely the former, no idea if they're going to be top-4.

Re: Hagg, Chris Pryor told Craig Custance in mid-January that Hagg was 'just about NHL-ready.' Considering a) the incoming logjam of prospects and b) the Flyers' mediocrity, if they thought Hagg was NHL ready, I cannot think why they wouldn't stick him in the NHL for the back half of last season to see how he looked. You can't draw a conclusion on a guy after 40 games, but it'd at least be an indication.

At the outset, I said we should break camp with Hagg/Morin/Sanheim this year. But thinking about that, it's a real big ask for 3 guys with zero NHL experience to come in and start playing at the same time. If Hagg had played 40 games and looked decent, maybe you feel a little better about giving him some responsibility. But instead, they might be almost obligated to put Sanheim in the AHL for another season, regardless of whether he's ready, because they don't want to start a rookie on a pairing that's going up against top-line scorers on other teams. If you put those 3 in the league all at once, you can't come up with a top-6 that doesn't have either a) 2 complete rookies on the same pairing or b) complete rookie on top pair.

Personally, I would have chucked both Hagg and Morin into the NHL once it became clear that the Flyers were a bubble team at absolute best (and Laughton/Leier if there was space), but I'm sure reasonable minds can disagree there.

But you just provided the quote that proves my point! Pryor said hagg was just about ready, not that he was actually ready. This also, again, ignores the point that he could possibly develop better in the AHL even if he can hang in the NHL. See Luke schenn.

The current logjam isn't the result of being too cautious, it's the simple result of having so many prospects at the same position at the same time


I think this is a matter of semantics, but to me, "just about ready" = "ready." If I'm baking or something and a cake is "just about ready", I'm pulling it out of the oven. I personally have trouble believing that after 2.5 AHL seasons and 165 AHL games, Hagg magically turned a corner in his last 30-40 minor pro games and hit a level that he never would have reached if he spent that half-season in the NHL instead.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #360 by CantSeeColors » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:29 pm

I personally have trouble believing that after 165 AHL games, another 30-40 is worth caring this much about unless you're the guy getting the paychecks. And remind me never to eat your cake.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #361 by FlyHigh » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:54 pm

Haha, don't blame you, the cake-baking is still a work in progress. I'm good at bread though!

And yep, it is a nitpick for sure, to emphasize, Hextall has done the big stuff right which has been nice.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #362 by Hovercraft » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:49 pm

Remember that Hagg, even though he has a lot of AHL games is still only 22. He was like 18-19 when he started in the AHL.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #363 by CantSeeColors » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:58 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Haha, don't blame you, the cake-baking is still a work in progress. I'm good at bread though!

And yep, it is a nitpick for sure, to emphasize, Hextall has done the big stuff right which has been nice.

Better you than me. I can cook well, but I don't have the patience for baking anything. I like to measure ingredients in handfuls, not ounces.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #364 by Kilgore Trout » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:13 pm

Yea, I can't bake either. Much prefer the imprecision and improvisation of cooking.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #365 by jester » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:14 pm

GoneFullHextall wrote:I don't think the Flyers could of called up Hagg and Morin due to cap reasons. the Streit/Flip deal was a wash pretty much with the cap. They obviously were not going to send down AMAC.
Of course there is Myers, but he really needs to spend time in the AHL playing against men in a physical league and show he can stay healthy and compete at a higher level.
I am still not convinced that all of Sanheim, Morin and Hagg will be with the big club next year. Even if they come in and have a great camp. Unless they are really serious about it and just outright waive Manning since that would be easier to do then trying to move AMAC.
I think in the end they give all the kids a shot, but only 2 of them are on the big club next year. At the very least it sure feels good to have some really good young prospects to look forward to at every position since Hextall took over.


I think roster-wise, you will see two rookies on D and no more ... just from a logistical perspective.

1. Provorov
2. Gudas
3. Ghost
4. MacDonald
5. Morin/Hagg/Sanheim
6. Morin/Hagg/Sanheim
7. Manning

If you keep all three, one of them is going to be the 7th D ... short of a truly exceptional camp, that forces the relegation of AMac (I don't think this is impossible, but it seems pretty unlikely for a lot of reasons). It makes zero sense for any of these young guys to be in the press box each night. I do think injuries will result in the guy that doesn't make it getting non-trivial games next year most likely, and we may see some mid-season shifts.

This should be a really interesting Flyers season with all these young players, but hopefully fans temper their expectations with regard to the team's record. I bet we struggle for stretches, but will also see glimmers of the brighter future we expect.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #366 by Rogers Pancreas » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:32 pm

JLHockeyKnight wrote:Idk if you've seen Hartnell's buyout, but I think you (and a lot of people) are giving that trade a lot more heat than it deserves. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'm glad Hextall had the vision to know when Hartnell was gonna drop off and moved the contract. Sure we were stuck with Umberger but at a smaller cap hit and good have to give to get in any trade.

Also worth noting Umberger making our team worse contributed to us getting Provorov. I'll take dealing with Umberger so we could get Provorov any day of the week. Again, hindsight.

Oh, I'm totally using hindsight on this one; at first, I could justify it. I liked the idea of getting out from under that contract of Sharts. But after a couple years of Umberger's Concussed As Fuck game, and seeing how the buy-outs worked out, I realized the cap gains really didn't mean a fucking thing given the return.

Out
SEASON CLAUSE CAP HIT AAV S. BONUSES P. BONUSES NHL SALARY MINORS SALARY
2013-14 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $6,000,000 $6,000,000
2014-15 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2015-16 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2016-17 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2017-18 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2018-19 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $3,000,000 $3,000,000


In
SEASON CLAUSE CAP HIT AAV S. BONUSES P. BONUSES NHL SALARY MINORS SALARY
2012-13 NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $1,000,000 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2013-14 NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2014-15 Modified NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2015-16 Modified NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2016-17 Modified NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000


Out (Post-Buyout)
SEASON COST CAP HIT
2017-18 $1,250,000 $1,500,000
2018-19 $1,250,000 $3,000,000
2019-20 $1,250,000 $1,250,000
2020-21 $1,250,000 $1,250,000

In (Post-Buyout)
SEASON COST CAP HIT
2016-17 $1,500,000 $1,600,000
2017-18 $1,500,000 $1,500,000


Three million off for two years, and a full year of term at the end.

...

I guess it could go either way depending how you look at it. Realistically, the Flyers probably could have held onto Hartnell for a year or two longer, and reduced the buyout penalty further. But, it is what it is.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #367 by jester » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:54 pm

As a cap move (very clearly the logic of the move), Hextall read the tea leaves correctly when he moved Hartnell.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #368 by Hovercraft » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:24 pm

I'm sure he didn't expect Umberger to play at an echl level either
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #369 by JLHockeyKnight » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:34 pm

Hovercraft wrote:I'm sure he didn't expect Umberger to play at an echl level either


I think this was a large part of it. I think he figured he could get a manageable 3rd line player. Instead he got a guy that rightfully should have been dropped to the AHL. But, Hartnell fell off the cliff too. So I guess he's batting 1 for 2. Hindsight.

Rogers, I also think the shorter contract term and Hextall doing a regime change factored in heaviest of all.

I'm impressed I managed to type all of this with a cat laying on my right hand and attempting to attack the keyboard.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #370 by JLHockeyKnight » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:38 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
JLHockeyKnight wrote:Idk if you've seen Hartnell's buyout, but I think you (and a lot of people) are giving that trade a lot more heat than it deserves. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'm glad Hextall had the vision to know when Hartnell was gonna drop off and moved the contract. Sure we were stuck with Umberger but at a smaller cap hit and good have to give to get in any trade.

Also worth noting Umberger making our team worse contributed to us getting Provorov. I'll take dealing with Umberger so we could get Provorov any day of the week. Again, hindsight.

Oh, I'm totally using hindsight on this one; at first, I could justify it. I liked the idea of getting out from under that contract of Sharts. But after a couple years of Umberger's Concussed As Fuck game, and seeing how the buy-outs worked out, I realized the cap gains really didn't mean a fucking thing given the return.

Out
SEASON CLAUSE CAP HIT AAV S. BONUSES P. BONUSES NHL SALARY MINORS SALARY
2013-14 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $6,000,000 $6,000,000
2014-15 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2015-16 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2016-17 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2017-18 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2018-19 NMC $4,750,000 $4,750,000 $0 $0 $3,000,000 $3,000,000


In
SEASON CLAUSE CAP HIT AAV S. BONUSES P. BONUSES NHL SALARY MINORS SALARY
2012-13 NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $1,000,000 $0 $5,000,000 $5,000,000
2013-14 NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2014-15 Modified NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2015-16 Modified NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000
2016-17 Modified NTC, NMC $4,600,000 $4,600,000 $0 $0 $4,500,000 $4,500,000


Out (Post-Buyout)
SEASON COST CAP HIT
2017-18 $1,250,000 $1,500,000
2018-19 $1,250,000 $3,000,000
2019-20 $1,250,000 $1,250,000
2020-21 $1,250,000 $1,250,000

In (Post-Buyout)
SEASON COST CAP HIT
2016-17 $1,500,000 $1,600,000
2017-18 $1,500,000 $1,500,000


Three million off for two years, and a full year of term at the end.

...

I guess it could go either way depending how you look at it. Realistically, the Flyers probably could have held onto Hartnell for a year or two longer, and reduced the buyout penalty further. But, it is what it is.


We are already going to have to do that with AMac in about a year. I'm glad we only have to do that with one player and not two.

I get the rest of your points though.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #371 by jester » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:05 pm

The thing to keep in mind ... is that I expect that Hextall believed that cap space would become pretty precious around here over the next few seasons. Those extra years on the cap are no small thing when you start gaming things out.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #372 by GoneFullHextall » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:51 am

jester wrote:
GoneFullHextall wrote:I don't think the Flyers could of called up Hagg and Morin due to cap reasons. the Streit/Flip deal was a wash pretty much with the cap. They obviously were not going to send down AMAC.
Of course there is Myers, but he really needs to spend time in the AHL playing against men in a physical league and show he can stay healthy and compete at a higher level.
I am still not convinced that all of Sanheim, Morin and Hagg will be with the big club next year. Even if they come in and have a great camp. Unless they are really serious about it and just outright waive Manning since that would be easier to do then trying to move AMAC.
I think in the end they give all the kids a shot, but only 2 of them are on the big club next year. At the very least it sure feels good to have some really good young prospects to look forward to at every position since Hextall took over.


I think roster-wise, you will see two rookies on D and no more ... just from a logistical perspective.

1. Provorov
2. Gudas
3. Ghost
4. MacDonald
5. Morin/Hagg/Sanheim
6. Morin/Hagg/Sanheim
7. Manning

If you keep all three, one of them is going to be the 7th D ... short of a truly exceptional camp, that forces the relegation of AMac (I don't think this is impossible, but it seems pretty unlikely for a lot of reasons). It makes zero sense for any of these young guys to be in the press box each night. I do think injuries will result in the guy that doesn't make it getting non-trivial games next year most likely, and we may see some mid-season shifts.

This should be a really interesting Flyers season with all these young players, but hopefully fans temper their expectations with regard to the team's record. I bet we struggle for stretches, but will also see glimmers of the brighter future we expect.


yeah I agree. Ideally most would love to see AMAC off the roster, but I would be shocked if he is sent down and they went with 3 rookies and a 2nd year guy in Provorov. Having 2 up with the big club and having the other guy be the first recall in case of injury seems most likely.
they young kids are going to have hiccups. there are going to be nights where they just look overwhelmed and out of sorts. Toronto went thru it with there young group of kids up front. probably the reason why I am on the fence with this being a playoff team.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #373 by JLHockeyKnight » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:17 am

jester wrote:The thing to keep in mind ... is that I expect that Hextall believed that cap space would become pretty precious around here over the next few seasons. Those extra years on the cap are no small thing when you start gaming things out.


And rightfully so. Being under Hextall is the first time where I feel like the Flyers' spending is under control since the salary cap. Until they, it was constantly up against the limit and they had to use funky math with LTIR and such to work the system. I felt like it was like giving a 10 year old a credit card and expecting them to use it sensibly. The term "precious" could be subjective, but I think with Hextall a large part of that was to clear out contracts like that that were either over-payment or were going to wreck us in the last year(s) of it. To him, that trade was more of offloading a burden (in his eyes) more than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Hartnell. He was arguably my favorite player on the team at the time. But the writing was on the wall. Just came down to if the fans felt like reading it.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #374 by JLHockeyKnight » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:22 am

GoneFullHextall wrote:
jester wrote:
GoneFullHextall wrote:I don't think the Flyers could of called up Hagg and Morin due to cap reasons. the Streit/Flip deal was a wash pretty much with the cap. They obviously were not going to send down AMAC.
Of course there is Myers, but he really needs to spend time in the AHL playing against men in a physical league and show he can stay healthy and compete at a higher level.
I am still not convinced that all of Sanheim, Morin and Hagg will be with the big club next year. Even if they come in and have a great camp. Unless they are really serious about it and just outright waive Manning since that would be easier to do then trying to move AMAC.
I think in the end they give all the kids a shot, but only 2 of them are on the big club next year. At the very least it sure feels good to have some really good young prospects to look forward to at every position since Hextall took over.


I think roster-wise, you will see two rookies on D and no more ... just from a logistical perspective.

1. Provorov
2. Gudas
3. Ghost
4. MacDonald
5. Morin/Hagg/Sanheim
6. Morin/Hagg/Sanheim
7. Manning

If you keep all three, one of them is going to be the 7th D ... short of a truly exceptional camp, that forces the relegation of AMac (I don't think this is impossible, but it seems pretty unlikely for a lot of reasons). It makes zero sense for any of these young guys to be in the press box each night. I do think injuries will result in the guy that doesn't make it getting non-trivial games next year most likely, and we may see some mid-season shifts.

This should be a really interesting Flyers season with all these young players, but hopefully fans temper their expectations with regard to the team's record. I bet we struggle for stretches, but will also see glimmers of the brighter future we expect.


yeah I agree. Ideally most would love to see AMAC off the roster, but I would be shocked if he is sent down and they went with 3 rookies and a 2nd year guy in Provorov. Having 2 up with the big club and having the other guy be the first recall in case of injury seems most likely.
they young kids are going to have hiccups. there are going to be nights where they just look overwhelmed and out of sorts. Toronto went thru it with there young group of kids up front. probably the reason why I am on the fence with this being a playoff team.


Re:hiccups - I mean last season Provorov looked completely lost in the first 15-20 games or so. Either he was making mistakes, some of which cost us, or he just was invisible, which is not good for a defenseman. By about game 20-25, it seemed like he found his game. And was (easy) the best defender the rest of the year out. So with Morin/Hagg/Sanheim coming up, hopefully all 3, I fully expect to give them the benefit of the doubt for AT LEAST the first half of the season.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #375 by jester » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:28 am

JLHockeyKnight wrote:
jester wrote:The thing to keep in mind ... is that I expect that Hextall believed that cap space would become pretty precious around here over the next few seasons. Those extra years on the cap are no small thing when you start gaming things out.


And rightfully so. Being under Hextall is the first time where I feel like the Flyers' spending is under control since the salary cap. Until they, it was constantly up against the limit and they had to use funky math with LTIR and such to work the system. I felt like it was like giving a 10 year old a credit card and expecting them to use it sensibly. The term "precious" could be subjective, but I think with Hextall a large part of that was to clear out contracts like that that were either over-payment or were going to wreck us in the last year(s) of it. To him, that trade was more of offloading a burden (in his eyes) more than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Hartnell. He was arguably my favorite player on the team at the time. But the writing was on the wall. Just came down to if the fans felt like reading it.


Hartnell's contract was too long. Think we all talked about it around here when it got signed.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #376 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:40 pm

jester wrote:
JLHockeyKnight wrote:Hartnell's contract was too long. Think we all talked about it around here when it got signed.

We did. And even though Simmonds signed his contract at roughly the same time, we all knew by the end of Hartnell's contract he was going to be (I already regret saying this) useless, making his extension a little over the top. I wish I could remember how Richards' extension was viewed at the time.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #377 by FlyHigh » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:00 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
JLHockeyKnight wrote:Hartnell's contract was too long. Think we all talked about it around here when it got signed.

We did. And even though Simmonds signed his contract at roughly the same time, we all knew by the end of Hartnell's contract he was going to be (I already regret saying this) useless, making his extension a little over the top. I wish I could remember how Richards' extension was viewed at the time.


They also gave it to him after a career year when they could have just waited 6 months.

I think we all viewed the Richards extension really positively right? That was signed pretty early in his breakout season and was before there was info about how dramatic the aging curve is.

Would love to read something about what the heck happened to Richards. It seems like he's come out on the other side OK at least, but man, it's a real shame how everything ended, both with the Flyers and his NHL career. Glad he got a couple Cups; that shift against Montreal is still just an all-timer, don't think we'll ever forget that.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #378 by jester » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:12 pm

Hard to compare the two contracts given the respective ages and cap strategies.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #379 by CantSeeColors » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:47 pm

I think we saw the Richards deal generally positively with a little concern. Pretty sure we all figured he'd at least stick around as a solid 3C through the end of that since he relied more on smarts than physical ability. Hopefully he's enjoying life on whatever lake his lives on at this point
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #380 by JLHockeyKnight » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:59 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:I think we saw the Richards deal generally positively with a little concern. Pretty sure we all figured he'd at least stick around as a solid 3C through the end of that since he relied more on smarts than physical ability. Hopefully he's enjoying life on whatever lake his lives on at this point


I remember thinking positively of Richards. He was the captain, after all. Supposedly he dogged it in practice. And I guess after the 80th picture posted on HF of him partying/drinking after a game should have been plenty of clear notice that he was gonna fall off a cliff in his career eventually. I just don't think anyone expected it to happen so fast/this soon.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #381 by GoneFullHextall » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:03 pm

practice?
practice eh?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #382 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:09 pm

JLHockeyKnight wrote:I remember thinking positively of Richards. He was the captain, after all. Supposedly he dogged it in practice. And I guess after the 80th picture posted on HF of him partying/drinking after a game should have been plenty of clear notice that he was gonna fall off a cliff in his career eventually. I just don't think anyone expected it to happen so fast/this soon.

I still don't buy into the partying bull-shit. To me, that was typical Pannac' drumming up hits any way he could, and the rest of the cess-pool re-spawning the same story over and over and over again.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #383 by jester » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:34 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:I still don't buy into the partying bull-shit. To me, that was typical Pannac' drumming up hits any way he could, and the rest of the cess-pool re-spawning the same story over and over and over again.


Agreed ... he may have partied a bit more than others, but as we have all hashed out before ... young, rich dudes tend to have a good time. Carter and Richards probably could have been a bit wiser as far as getting their pics posted on social media, but, as far as I know, neither of them slapped a cop's ass or hurt themselves "golfing." The pain pills was a bummer for him, and who knows when that started, but that is also a widespread problem in professional sports that does not get nearly enough attention--though, NFL players are starting to make some noise about it related to marijuana and concussions.

Richards was a smaller dude and on the low-end of the athletic spectrum by NHL standards and played the game at a ferocious pace early in his career ... and, more importantly, his game was predicated on being able to maintain that ferocity. I think the Booth hit took his edge off mentally a bit, and then shoulder and head injuries started to catch up with him as well. Maybe he could have avoided some of that with a bit more dedication in the weight room, etc., but I think that's a 50/50 proposition at best.

JLHockeyKnight wrote:I remember thinking positively of Richards. He was the captain, after all. Supposedly he dogged it in practice. And I guess after the 80th picture posted on HF of him partying/drinking after a game should have been plenty of clear notice that he was gonna fall off a cliff in his career eventually. I just don't think anyone expected it to happen so fast/this soon.


I mean, the Flyers regularly have open practices to the public, and I don't remember hearing about him dogging it in practice. That being said, he was so banged up all the time by the end of his tenure here that I can't imagine he was going full-tilt in practice on the regular.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #384 by JLHockeyKnight » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:44 am

jester wrote:
Richards was a smaller dude and on the low-end of the athletic spectrum by NHL standards and played the game at a ferocious pace early in his career ... and, more importantly, his game was predicated on being able to maintain that ferocity. I think the Booth hit took his edge off mentally a bit, and then shoulder and head injuries started to catch up with him as well. Maybe he could have avoided some of that with a bit more dedication in the weight room, etc., but I think that's a 50/50 proposition at best.

...

I mean, the Flyers regularly have open practices to the public, and I don't remember hearing about him dogging it in practice. That being said, he was so banged up all the time by the end of his tenure here that I can't imagine he was going full-tilt in practice on the regular.


Forgot to mention that yesterday. He did play a pretty physical game, which will take a toll on your body at some level.

Who knows about the weight room. I'm sure there was some level of team politics involved, maybe held him to a higher standard with him being captain.

Maybe one day someone will release a book and give us the full story.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #385 by jester » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:09 am

Naming him captain was an epic fail. There is an alternate universe where Timonen or Knuble or whoever is captain and Richards avoided the media BS he clearly hated.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #386 by JLHockeyKnight » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:15 am

Wholeheartedly agree about Timonen, wouldn't be against Knuble.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #387 by CantSeeColors » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:20 am

I sometimes wonder about the alternate universe where Richards is still traded to shake up the culture, but carter and bob and JVR are kept and bryz and vinny are never signed
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #388 by jester » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:29 pm

JVR deal remains indefensible. Bob deal was part of a larger dynamic, but what the hell was Holmgren doing with that deal?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #389 by Rogers Pancreas » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:28 pm

jester wrote:JVR deal remains indefensible. Bob deal was part of a larger dynamic, but what the hell was Holmgren doing with that deal?

I think it's fair to call that dynamic a quasar.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #390 by CantSeeColors » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:49 pm

jester wrote:JVR deal remains indefensible. Bob deal was part of a larger dynamic, but what the hell was Holmgren doing with that deal?

Giving in to snider's knee jerk reaction to get a new goalie. Whole franchise got blown up because nobody had any patience with the goalie who was like 22
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #391 by GoneFullHextall » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:45 pm

and of course being a 22 year old goalie who would of thought he would of struggled at times. Did they expect him to come in and be Hasek?
Thank God we have someone as a GM who gets that kids are going to go thru growing pains instead of caving into impatience and signing a veteran goalie to a God awful contract. forcing them to trade that young promising goalie for a couple of picks.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #392 by jester » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:52 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:
jester wrote:JVR deal remains indefensible. Bob deal was part of a larger dynamic, but what the hell was Holmgren doing with that deal?

Giving in to snider's knee jerk reaction to get a new goalie. Whole franchise got blown up because nobody had any patience with the goalie who was like 22


Well, that had more to do with the Bob situation ... the JVR deal was a largely independent swap after a disappointing, injury-plagued season. Not only did I not get the sudden desire to trade away JVR, but it was also a clear case of selling at his lowest value.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #393 by CantSeeColors » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:41 am

Ah, I misunderstood your post, Jester. Yeah, that JVR trade was silly. Panic move after losing Pronger is what I've always assumed. I think it was more about acquiring L. Schenn, and JVR was just the cost to do that.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #394 by FlyHigh » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:44 am

Back in the good old days of Luke "the Tower of Power", "the Human Eraser" Schenn as opposed to the current Luke "eh?" Schenn.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #395 by Hovercraft » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:04 am

Patrick has been signed to an ELC. I am interested to see what kind of bonuses he has worked into it.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #396 by jester » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:16 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Back in the good old days of Luke "the Tower of Power", "the Human Eraser" Schenn as opposed to the current Luke "eh?" Schenn.


I mean, wasn't he already Luke "eh?" Schenn by that point? He might be the clearest example of a guy rushed to the NHL due to media hype, and then weighed down by a burdensome contract that inflated expectations even further.

Hovercraft wrote:Patrick has been signed to an ELC. I am interested to see what kind of bonuses he has worked into it.


A non-trivial matter ... given the fact that this injury stuff makes it seem plausible that he might have had a monster draft year if he'd been healthy. Given that there will be some available playing time for him with this group of forwards, reasonable bonus thresholds might be quite achievable.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #397 by CantSeeColors » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:28 am

Send him back to junior to avoid the bonuses :pacman:
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #398 by FlyHigh » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:34 am

I think Schenn might have had 1-2 good years in Toronto at least by traditional narratives. Really frustrating player, he'd have brief little runs where he looked like a legitimate shutdown guy followed by periods where he seemed like he was making a gaffe every shift. Brayden seems to be similar in that way funnily enough.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #399 by Hovercraft » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:34 pm

Schenn could have used time in the AHL to learn better puck skills and work on his skating.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #400 by Rogers Pancreas » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:17 pm

He wasn't a great skater to begin with, but then Toronto got in his head early. He felt obligated to put on a good deal of weight, which hurt him, and then his confidence went straight south.
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