2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #801 by jester » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:14 am

CantSeeColors wrote:I never wanted it to happen, but I’ve had this nagging feeling they should have moved giroux several years ago since this rebuild wasn’t likely to really pan out until after his prime. Really glad he’s playing this well into his 30s and giving them a chance to compete in his final good years, and hopefully we can add some nice FA pieces this summer to give that a boost


Yeah, I mean, I remain pretty convinced this team can bounce back rather forcefully next year. You factor in the following:

1) [Priority, IMO] Sign a top-6 scoring forward (Panarin the obvious target) to give this team a bit more juice.

2) Hope for bounce back seasons from Provorov and Ghost ... a not unrealistic expectation. What the fuck went wrong with the PP this year is a mystery to me, but if you get that going again then Ghost transforms back into being a very dangerous piece on a team-friendly contract.

3) Carter Hart does not have a sophomore slump season. I think the heavy influence of shit goaltending in the first half of the season does not get enough attention. Failure to get competent play from that position likely cost them a playoff position (or at least a realistic shot at a playoff spot).

4) Fix the fucking PK. Who knows if this is doable, but, at the very least, Lappy (as great a guy as he seems to be) should be looking for new employment.

5) Continued development of the young players (this remains a young team in very key spots). It is reasonable to expect continued improvement from: Provorov, Ghost (to a limited extent), Sanheim, Myers, Morin, Patrick, Konecny, Lindblom, etc. And additionally, what impact might some of these young rookies have in the near term (Frost and Farabee both seem like guys that will dress sooner rather than later).

It sucks that this year went off the rails so early (and cost an effective GM his job, IMO ... but that was partially his own fault). But if you squint it's easy to see this team as a very strong and deep team as early as next year with room for improvement. This most intriguing questions I think are these:

1a) Do you trade Voracek? And what do you get for him and/or replace him on the roster with? (I would, but I would want a decent return.)

1b) Do you trade Ghost? (I wouldn't.)

2) What UFA signings do they make?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #802 by Hovercraft » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:02 am

We really need Patrick to step up his game next year otherwise we will probably need to sign another good C. Duchene or Hayes best two options I guess. Like someone said earlier in this thread, Hextall really dropped the ball not trying harder to land ROR.

I think we are more talented than teams like CAR, NYI, and even Colorado who are currently in the playoffs. We just need better coaching and consistent play from our core players. Ghost and Provorov should bounce back.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #803 by jester » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:57 am

Hovercraft wrote:We really need Patrick to step up his game next year otherwise we will probably need to sign another good C. Duchene or Hayes best two options I guess. Like someone said earlier in this thread, Hextall really dropped the ball not trying harder to land ROR.

I think we are more talented than teams like CAR, NYI, and even Colorado who are currently in the playoffs. We just need better coaching and consistent play from our core players. Ghost and Provorov should bounce back.


I think there's a decent chance Patrick has a very strong year next year. Either way, I wouldn't hate them going in with a 1/2 of Couturier/Patrick and sign a serviceable no. 3 ... then see where we are with Frost. He's the wild card here. How much time is he going to need in the AHL? Is he a C or a wing given his size?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #804 by FlyHigh » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:28 pm

Re: goaltending, it was definitely bad to start the year.

That being said, team defense was an absolute tirefire. This team was absolutely nowhere near ready to compete on the defensive end in October/November, it's not like a stream of 60 foot point shots were finding twine on a nightly basis. I think team D remained an ongoing problem throughout the year (Gordon looked good because Hart appears to be legit and Elliott was pretty good in the 2nd half), but the first 20-30 games, the team was a real trainwreck in its own end.

There's some chicken-and-egg there (did bad goaltending lead to d-zone panic? etc.), but I think it's possible to say that both "(a) the goaltending was not good enough and (b) this team sucked defensively."

I think they also need to figure out why they fell off a cliff from a 5v5 possession standpoint as soon as Hak left, this team has enough talent that they should be driving play at 5v5 against a fair number of teams.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #805 by jester » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:57 pm

The goaltending was a bottomless well of despair once Elliot got hurt. It was beyond awful. The same team played in front of Elliot as the other dudes, and he both managed to post a respectable SVPCT and they were competitive.

If he didn't get hurt, they probably make the playoffs.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #806 by JLHockeyKnight » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:43 pm

Yeah I never understood why the fanbase seemed to have so much hate to Elliott. He is a bridge goalie, and was always expected to be. He didn't play half bad most of the time but just was constantly fighting injury.

Legit question: can any of the "constantly injured series of goaltenders" be pinned on the goaltending coach?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #807 by CantSeeColors » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:17 pm

JLHockeyKnight wrote:Yeah I never understood why the fanbase seemed to have so much hate to Elliott. He is a bridge goalie, and was always expected to be. He didn't play half bad most of the time but just was constantly fighting injury.

Legit question: can any of the "constantly injured series of goaltenders" be pinned on the goaltending coach?

Considering the previous goaltending coach quit because people higher up than him ran Steve mason into the IR, I wouldn’t pin things on this coach
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #808 by jester » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:45 pm

Exacerbating issue with Elliot is that Neuvirth just couldn't stay healthy.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #809 by FlyHigh » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:31 am

jester wrote:The goaltending was a bottomless well of despair once Elliot got hurt. It was beyond awful. The same team played in front of Elliot as the other dudes, and he both managed to post a respectable SVPCT and they were competitive.

If he didn't get hurt, they probably make the playoffs.


Elliott had an .890 in Oct in 9 starts.

Through the first 2 months of the season, Flyers ranked 26th in the league in 5v5 goaltending. Admittedly not great, but 3 of the teams behind them were St Louis, San Jose and Vegas.

No one is arguing that it was good; it was bad. But let's not act like this team would have been good and a solid PO contender except for goaltending, there were a lot of problems.

Unless we want to go back to blaming goaltenders for the PK, and at this point we know there's a bigger problem.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #810 by jester » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:56 am

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:The goaltending was a bottomless well of despair once Elliot got hurt. It was beyond awful. The same team played in front of Elliot as the other dudes, and he both managed to post a respectable SVPCT and they were competitive.

If he didn't get hurt, they probably make the playoffs.


Elliott had an .890 in Oct in 9 starts.

Through the first 2 months of the season, Flyers ranked 26th in the league in 5v5 goaltending. Admittedly not great, but 3 of the teams behind them were St Louis, San Jose and Vegas.

No one is arguing that it was good; it was bad. But let's not act like this team would have been good and a solid PO contender except for goaltending, there were a lot of problems.

Unless we want to go back to blaming goaltenders for the PK, and at this point we know there's a bigger problem.


Look at Elliot's game log. He was left out to dry against the Caps for 8 goals in an October game. Other than that, he was fine. Then he was lights out in November.

The team was not playing great early on, but there is no way in hell goalies were not the biggest problem once you removed Elliot.

The playoff argument stems from the idea that of they had a smaller hole to dig out of, their improved play maybe gets them into the playoffs. In particular, better goaltending likely averts the late Nov. to early January catastrophe.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #811 by Hovercraft » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:11 am

Hak also ran Elliot into the ground too at at least one point during the season. Like 16 or more straight starts or something.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #812 by FlyHigh » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:16 am

You can play that game with pretty much any goaltender. Take out Pickard's 6 goal game against TB in November and he's at .897 for the month which is....not a catastrophe.

Again, the goaltending was bad, nobody disputes that. But saying that it singlehandedly tanked the Flyers season, with the potential implication that everything else was great, is not correct. I watched those Oct/Nov games, the team wasn't ready to go in the d-zone. You can play a game of whose fault that was (Provorov and Ghost both taking big steps backwards was not helpful), but there it is.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #813 by Hovercraft » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:52 am

Our D zone play was still pretty bad 2nd half of the year, Hart just bailed us out more. There's a reason his Sv% was so high even in losses.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #814 by jester » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:53 am

FlyHigh wrote:You can play that game with pretty much any goaltender. Take out Pickard's 6 goal game against TB in November and he's at .897 for the month which is....not a catastrophe.

Again, the goaltending was bad, nobody disputes that. But saying that it singlehandedly tanked the Flyers season, with the potential implication that everything else was great, is not correct. I watched those Oct/Nov games, the team wasn't ready to go in the d-zone. You can play a game of whose fault that was (Provorov and Ghost both taking big steps backwards was not helpful), but there it is.


Honest question, what do you think the expected record for a team rocking an .875 SVPCT is? (Yes, that's where they were before Hart saved the situation.) I don't care how good you play defense, you're going to lose most nights. Moreover, bad goaltending exacerbates everything. Struggling on the PK? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Struggling in D coverage? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Sloppy neutral zone play giving up odd man rushes ...

Not for nothing, but a lot of teams are playing shit defense the first 20 games or so before things tighten up.

And this is an argument I hashed out ad nauseum over a decade ago on HF. Goalies own their SVPCT largely independent of team D, because bad team D gives up volume as much as more high quality. You can post a decent SVPCT on a shitty defensive team if you're good.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #815 by jester » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:57 am

Hovercraft wrote:Our D zone play was still pretty bad 2nd half of the year, Hart just bailed us out more. There's a reason his Sv% was so high even in losses.


At the same time, the PK got much better.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #816 by jester » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:58 am

Hovercraft wrote:Hak also ran Elliot into the ground too at at least one point during the season. Like 16 or more straight starts or something.


He had to. The other goalies were beer league quality.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #817 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:50 pm

jester wrote:He had to. The other goalies were beer league quality.

Yeah... no.

Hakstol rode those rails a few too many times, and each time the train came off the tracks. The smart move would have been to learn from that mistake.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #818 by Hovercraft » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:08 pm

Doesn't matter if Lyon or Pickard were trash, it doesn't make sense to overwork an old, injury riddled starting goaltender. Not that hard to give a game off here and there. I agree that Elliot was the best of the bunch pre Hart but he still wasn't winning us many games with his play and our D play. Not really sure what we are arguing about, our team D and goaltending were bottom of the league for at least half the year and that has got to improve next year.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #819 by FlyHigh » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:38 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:You can play that game with pretty much any goaltender. Take out Pickard's 6 goal game against TB in November and he's at .897 for the month which is....not a catastrophe.

Again, the goaltending was bad, nobody disputes that. But saying that it singlehandedly tanked the Flyers season, with the potential implication that everything else was great, is not correct. I watched those Oct/Nov games, the team wasn't ready to go in the d-zone. You can play a game of whose fault that was (Provorov and Ghost both taking big steps backwards was not helpful), but there it is.


Honest question, what do you think the expected record for a team rocking an .875 SVPCT is? (Yes, that's where they were before Hart saved the situation.) I don't care how good you play defense, you're going to lose most nights. Moreover, bad goaltending exacerbates everything. Struggling on the PK? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Struggling in D coverage? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Sloppy neutral zone play giving up odd man rushes ...

Not for nothing, but a lot of teams are playing shit defense the first 20 games or so before things tighten up.

And this is an argument I hashed out ad nauseum over a decade ago on HF. Goalies own their SVPCT largely independent of team D, because bad team D gives up volume as much as more high quality. You can post a decent SVPCT on a shitty defensive team if you're good.


A lot of recent stats/scouting report work has gone into disproving the boldface statement above. I can't claim enough math/hockey d-zone tactics knowledge to properly analyze some of the methodologies being touted, but Filipovic had a goaltending guy on his podcast fairly recently who went into some of the details and made a compelling case. You look at Greiss/Halak last year with the NYI, and then again this year...there's clearly something there. Lehner goes from a tire-fire in Buffalo to a Trotz team and jumps 22 save percentage points. Guys like Luongo, Lundqvist, Price who put up the same, elite save percentages year after year are extraordinarily rare and are HOFers for a reason. I'm willing to buy that at there's at least some team-D effect on a goalie and, more importantly, it seems that a fair number of smart people around the game believe the same thing.

And again, nobody is saying the goaltending was good, or average. It was bad. The point is that it wasn't some kind of all-world level of awful that singlehandedly tanked an otherwise great team. Vegas, St. Louis, Sharks all had goaltending worse than the Flyers at 5v5 over the first couple months of the season. Those 3 ended up in the POs.

The overall point, which I was think that everyone here agrees on, is that the problem wasn't just goaltending and is the solution isn't just "plug in Hart, get good goaltending, and become a legitimate contender".

I think they need to have an honest conversation on why this team's defense at 5v5 was well below-par for most of the year and figure out how to fix it.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #820 by jester » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:23 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:He had to. The other goalies were beer league quality.

Yeah... no.

Hakstol rode those rails a few too many times, and each time the train came off the tracks. The smart move would have been to learn from that mistake.


That was a GM failure. Not a coach failure. Don't want a coach to ride a goalie? Give him two serviceable goalies.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #821 by jester » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:35 am

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:You can play that game with pretty much any goaltender. Take out Pickard's 6 goal game against TB in November and he's at .897 for the month which is....not a catastrophe.

Again, the goaltending was bad, nobody disputes that. But saying that it singlehandedly tanked the Flyers season, with the potential implication that everything else was great, is not correct. I watched those Oct/Nov games, the team wasn't ready to go in the d-zone. You can play a game of whose fault that was (Provorov and Ghost both taking big steps backwards was not helpful), but there it is.


Honest question, what do you think the expected record for a team rocking an .875 SVPCT is? (Yes, that's where they were before Hart saved the situation.) I don't care how good you play defense, you're going to lose most nights. Moreover, bad goaltending exacerbates everything. Struggling on the PK? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Struggling in D coverage? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Sloppy neutral zone play giving up odd man rushes ...

Not for nothing, but a lot of teams are playing shit defense the first 20 games or so before things tighten up.

And this is an argument I hashed out ad nauseum over a decade ago on HF. Goalies own their SVPCT largely independent of team D, because bad team D gives up volume as much as more high quality. You can post a decent SVPCT on a shitty defensive team if you're good.


A lot of recent stats/scouting report work has gone into disproving the boldface statement above. I can't claim enough math/hockey d-zone tactics knowledge to properly analyze some of the methodologies being touted, but Filipovic had a goaltending guy on his podcast fairly recently who went into some of the details and made a compelling case. You look at Greiss/Halak last year with the NYI, and then again this year...there's clearly something there. Lehner goes from a tire-fire in Buffalo to a Trotz team and jumps 22 save percentage points. Guys like Luongo, Lundqvist, Price who put up the same, elite save percentages year after year are extraordinarily rare and are HOFers for a reason. I'm willing to buy that at there's at least some team-D effect on a goalie and, more importantly, it seems that a fair number of smart people around the game believe the same thing.

And again, nobody is saying the goaltending was good, or average. It was bad. The point is that it wasn't some kind of all-world level of awful that singlehandedly tanked an otherwise great team. Vegas, St. Louis, Sharks all had goaltending worse than the Flyers at 5v5 over the first couple months of the season. Those 3 ended up in the POs.

The overall point, which I was think that everyone here agrees on, is that the problem wasn't just goaltending and is the solution isn't just "plug in Hart, get good goaltending, and become a legitimate contender".

I think they need to have an honest conversation on why this team's defense at 5v5 was well below-par for most of the year and figure out how to fix it.


Halak is a career .916 ... he posted a .908 last year, and a .922 this year. Amazing.

Lehner's last four years: .924, .920, .908, .930. What's the outlier there?

Worst SVPCT this year was .889 (San Jose). Worst SVPCT last year was .893 (CAR). ... year before .893.

We were at ~.875 at one point. Yes, that is all-world level of awful.

Teams can have an effect on SVPCT, particularly on the PK if they are particularly good at eliminating open-net chances.

As to this year, the fact that San Jose made the playoffs is relatively impressive ... also have a significantly better roster than us. STL and Vegas finished the year middle of the pack. We made a serious run once ... we got good goaltending!

The overall point is that goaltending makes a huge difference for this team (and any team). For this team, the key to becoming a more dangerous team is the combination of goaltending, PK (goaltending related), and getting the PP going again.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #822 by jester » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:41 am

Hovercraft wrote:Doesn't matter if Lyon or Pickard were trash, it doesn't make sense to overwork an old, injury riddled starting goaltender. Not that hard to give a game off here and there. I agree that Elliot was the best of the bunch pre Hart but he still wasn't winning us many games with his play and our D play. Not really sure what we are arguing about, our team D and goaltending were bottom of the league for at least half the year and that has got to improve next year.


This is easy to say when you are not feeling job security pressure.

I think Hextall got a bit of a rough deal from the organization, because I think he did a very good job rescuing and rebuilding them from the Holmgren shit show. That being said, keeping Lappy around was an idiotic decision and that really cost them early in the year. They also had to nab a serviceable NHL-level goalie due to the injury concerns with Elliot and Neuvirth.

Part of the argument here is assessing where we are. This team is closer to pretty decent than I think is generally acknowledged. In fact, if you can explain why the PP went to shit this year that would be great ... as they may have made the playoffs if the PP had been as effective as prior seasons in conjunction with Hart showing up and stabilizing the pipes. We have a young D. It is going to be young for the next little bit if you assume that guys like Sanheim, Myers, and Morin will see significant time next year. Team D is probably going to be iffy for a stretch. Get used to it. They're going to have to out-offense that handicap a bit, and that's fine. As long as they get average-to-good goaltending play they will be fine. If the special teams perk up, they'll potentially be very dangerous very fast.

Caps and Pens have been pretty mediocre team defense groups for a decade ... got in the way of some Cups, yes, but didn't stop them from winning a lot of games.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #823 by DeadPhish » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:43 pm

Alain Vigneault .... meh.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #824 by jester » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:50 pm

DeadPhish wrote:Alain Vigneault .... meh.


His teams have all been known for embellishment. Not a fan.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #825 by Hovercraft » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:55 pm

I think I prefer AV to any of the other non Q options but he's like Lavi in that he has a short shelf life. He did take 2 different teams to cup finals. As long as we don't have Tanner Glass on our team we should be okay.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #826 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:48 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
Honest question, what do you think the expected record for a team rocking an .875 SVPCT is? (Yes, that's where they were before Hart saved the situation.) I don't care how good you play defense, you're going to lose most nights. Moreover, bad goaltending exacerbates everything. Struggling on the PK? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Struggling in D coverage? Bad goaltending makes it worse. Sloppy neutral zone play giving up odd man rushes ...

Not for nothing, but a lot of teams are playing shit defense the first 20 games or so before things tighten up.

And this is an argument I hashed out ad nauseum over a decade ago on HF. Goalies own their SVPCT largely independent of team D, because bad team D gives up volume as much as more high quality. You can post a decent SVPCT on a shitty defensive team if you're good.


A lot of recent stats/scouting report work has gone into disproving the boldface statement above. I can't claim enough math/hockey d-zone tactics knowledge to properly analyze some of the methodologies being touted, but Filipovic had a goaltending guy on his podcast fairly recently who went into some of the details and made a compelling case. You look at Greiss/Halak last year with the NYI, and then again this year...there's clearly something there. Lehner goes from a tire-fire in Buffalo to a Trotz team and jumps 22 save percentage points. Guys like Luongo, Lundqvist, Price who put up the same, elite save percentages year after year are extraordinarily rare and are HOFers for a reason. I'm willing to buy that at there's at least some team-D effect on a goalie and, more importantly, it seems that a fair number of smart people around the game believe the same thing.

And again, nobody is saying the goaltending was good, or average. It was bad. The point is that it wasn't some kind of all-world level of awful that singlehandedly tanked an otherwise great team. Vegas, St. Louis, Sharks all had goaltending worse than the Flyers at 5v5 over the first couple months of the season. Those 3 ended up in the POs.

The overall point, which I was think that everyone here agrees on, is that the problem wasn't just goaltending and is the solution isn't just "plug in Hart, get good goaltending, and become a legitimate contender".

I think they need to have an honest conversation on why this team's defense at 5v5 was well below-par for most of the year and figure out how to fix it.


Halak is a career .916 ... he posted a .908 last year, and a .922 this year. Amazing.

Lehner's last four years: .924, .920, .908, .930. What's the outlier there?

Worst SVPCT this year was .889 (San Jose). Worst SVPCT last year was .893 (CAR). ... year before .893.

We were at ~.875 at one point. Yes, that is all-world level of awful.

Teams can have an effect on SVPCT, particularly on the PK if they are particularly good at eliminating open-net chances.

As to this year, the fact that San Jose made the playoffs is relatively impressive ... also have a significantly better roster than us. STL and Vegas finished the year middle of the pack. We made a serious run once ... we got good goaltending!

The overall point is that goaltending makes a huge difference for this team (and any team). For this team, the key to becoming a more dangerous team is the combination of goaltending, PK (goaltending related), and getting the PP going again.


As I've mentioned several times already, our ES goaltending was above several other teams.

If you are really going to blame the goalies for the PK being terrible and ignore the past 3 years of Flyers PK failures across literally double-digit numbers of goaltenders (which include years such as last year where the ES goaltending was great), be my guest. I think that is dumb.

The Flyers made a nice run in Jan-Feb despite being comprehensively outplayed for most of it and relied on a miraculous Hart stretch plus some great Elliott games. The last 10-15 games of the year were a fairly brutal regression to the mean.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #827 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:53 pm

5 x 5 for AV...not thrilled, but eh. Wouldn't want to be Konecny right now, probably destined for the Buchnevich doghouse.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #828 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:11 pm

Not a fan of this one
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #829 by jester » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:12 pm

FlyHigh wrote:As I've mentioned several times already, our ES goaltending was above several other teams.

If you are really going to blame the goalies for the PK being terrible and ignore the past 3 years of Flyers PK failures across literally double-digit numbers of goaltenders (which include years such as last year where the ES goaltending was great), be my guest. I think that is dumb.

The Flyers made a nice run in Jan-Feb despite being comprehensively outplayed for most of it and relied on a miraculous Hart stretch plus some great Elliott games. The last 10-15 games of the year were a fairly brutal regression to the mean.


So,we ignore the shots that weren't at ES?

This team was a playoff hopeful team, but was not a world beater roster. They got full on shit sandwich goaltending for the first three months of the season. When they got good goaltending, they had a stretch as one of the best teams in the league.

Things I've said repetitively (since last year): Lappy not getting shitcanned a while ago is an indefensible decision ... particularly when you can the guy that consistently coached one of the best PPs in the league. Who is ignoring the PK history?

Goaltending, however, was the single biggest problem for this team the first three months. It cost Hextall his job. It cost Hakstol his job. Two things can be true at once, but nothing was salvaging the situation without changing who played net. It was literally a giant, flatulent elephant wearing a red hat in the middle of the room. Which, of course, is why the season turned around ...

I mean, seriously, the team's record changed considerably between the first and second half ... what variables notably changed? (A: PK more aggressive under Gordon, and Hart).
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #830 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:41 pm

jester wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:He had to. The other goalies were beer league quality.

Yeah... no.

Hakstol rode those rails a few too many times, and each time the train came off the tracks. The smart move would have been to learn from that mistake.


That was a GM failure. Not a coach failure. Don't want a coach to ride a goalie? Give him two serviceable goalies.

Whatever you say.

Fact of the matter is Hakstol made a habit out of it, and in the end the team suffered. You can blame the GM all you want. But this is the NHL, and there is a Salary Cap. Something is always going to be compromised. It's up to the coach to manage that as best as humanly possible; if everything needs to come up Cherry in order for said coach to be successful, guess what? He's not going to last, because he's not that fucking good to begin with.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #831 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:51 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:As I've mentioned several times already, our ES goaltending was above several other teams.

If you are really going to blame the goalies for the PK being terrible and ignore the past 3 years of Flyers PK failures across literally double-digit numbers of goaltenders (which include years such as last year where the ES goaltending was great), be my guest. I think that is dumb.

The Flyers made a nice run in Jan-Feb despite being comprehensively outplayed for most of it and relied on a miraculous Hart stretch plus some great Elliott games. The last 10-15 games of the year were a fairly brutal regression to the mean.


So,we ignore the shots that weren't at ES?

This team was a playoff hopeful team, but was not a world beater roster. They got full on shit sandwich goaltending for the first three months of the season. When they got good goaltending, they had a stretch as one of the best teams in the league.

Things I've said repetitively (since last year): Lappy not getting shitcanned a while ago is an indefensible decision ... particularly when you can the guy that consistently coached one of the best PPs in the league. Who is ignoring the PK history?

Goaltending, however, was the single biggest problem for this team the first three months. It cost Hextall his job. It cost Hakstol his job. Two things can be true at once, but nothing was salvaging the situation without changing who played net. It was literally a giant, flatulent elephant wearing a red hat in the middle of the room. Which, of course, is why the season turned around ...

I mean, seriously, the team's record changed considerably between the first and second half ... what variables notably changed? (A: PK more aggressive under Gordon, and Hart).

...

Let's not forget:

Andy MacDonald assuming less responsibility.
Robert Hagg assuming less responsibility.
Dale Weise getting shipped the fuck out.
Travis Sanheim assuming more responsibility.
Oskar Lindblom assuming more responsibility.
Nolan Patrick assuming more responsibility.
JVR actually playing games.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #832 by jester » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:50 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:Yeah... no.

Hakstol rode those rails a few too many times, and each time the train came off the tracks. The smart move would have been to learn from that mistake.


That was a GM failure. Not a coach failure. Don't want a coach to ride a goalie? Give him two serviceable goalies.

Whatever you say.

Fact of the matter is Hakstol made a habit out of it, and in the end the team suffered. You can blame the GM all you want. But this is the NHL, and there is a Salary Cap. Something is always going to be compromised. It's up to the coach to manage that as best as humanly possible; if everything needs to come up Cherry in order for said coach to be successful, guess what? He's not going to last, because he's not that fucking good to begin with.


His choice was Elliot or a pile of shit. We aren't talking about a cherry. We aren't even talking about moldy bread you can scrape off and choke down. Pile of steaming shit.

It's really easy to critique coaches about not doing this and that, but it evades the pressures of trying to win just to keep your job. Sure, you can swap Elliot out for a steaming pile of shit and that might be the smarter long-term decision. Hakstol was almost certainly not making long-term decisions ... and most coaches are living with a clock over their head, which is why they do this stuff. Want coaches to think long-term, give them real job security.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #833 by jester » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:57 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:As I've mentioned several times already, our ES goaltending was above several other teams.

If you are really going to blame the goalies for the PK being terrible and ignore the past 3 years of Flyers PK failures across literally double-digit numbers of goaltenders (which include years such as last year where the ES goaltending was great), be my guest. I think that is dumb.

The Flyers made a nice run in Jan-Feb despite being comprehensively outplayed for most of it and relied on a miraculous Hart stretch plus some great Elliott games. The last 10-15 games of the year were a fairly brutal regression to the mean.


So,we ignore the shots that weren't at ES?

This team was a playoff hopeful team, but was not a world beater roster. They got full on shit sandwich goaltending for the first three months of the season. When they got good goaltending, they had a stretch as one of the best teams in the league.

Things I've said repetitively (since last year): Lappy not getting shitcanned a while ago is an indefensible decision ... particularly when you can the guy that consistently coached one of the best PPs in the league. Who is ignoring the PK history?

Goaltending, however, was the single biggest problem for this team the first three months. It cost Hextall his job. It cost Hakstol his job. Two things can be true at once, but nothing was salvaging the situation without changing who played net. It was literally a giant, flatulent elephant wearing a red hat in the middle of the room. Which, of course, is why the season turned around ...

I mean, seriously, the team's record changed considerably between the first and second half ... what variables notably changed? (A: PK more aggressive under Gordon, and Hart).

...

Let's not forget:

Andy MacDonald assuming less responsibility.
Robert Hagg assuming less responsibility.
Dale Weise getting shipped the fuck out.
Travis Sanheim assuming more responsibility.
Oskar Lindblom assuming more responsibility.
Nolan Patrick assuming more responsibility.
JVR actually playing games.


Andy MacDonald actually put up decent numbers after he got healthy.
Robert Hagg played 12 more games and 1 minute less of ice time ... on a team that was playing 7 D for a decent stretch. His TOI was actually pretty consistent from December on (and we fucking sucked in December).
Dale Weise was not this teams problem, unless you think Phil Varone is a world beater?

Latter four, all nice variables ... but one of FlyHigh's points is fundamentally important. The team was still struggling mightily to control play, and REQUIRED good goaltending to be competitive even with those factors. Sanheim showed a lot this year. He also has a lot of room to improve defensively. Lindblom played a minute less this year than last year, and when his minutes really expanded in March he posted 5 pts in 15 games along with a -7.

JVR would have been nice to have healthy all year.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #834 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:32 am

What this basically comes down to is that you'd like to blame goaltending for the PK and at this point, I don't because it's been years of Flyers goalies, including goalies having great seasons, putting up terrible save percentages on the PK. If you factor in PK, of course the Flyers save percentage is hilariously bad. When the PK is bottom-5 or however bad it's been for years on end, I think it's time to look elsewhere for fixes and not just blame goalies year after year.

And yeah, Hart coming in and being a good goaltender, plus a PK philosophy change, was pretty much entirely responsible for the turnaround. The gap from "outright bad" to "good" is quite large and goaltending is the most important position in hockey.

But they can't go into next year and say, "goaltending is the only reason we missed the POs last year and now that we have Hart, we're golden." There were (and are) fundamental problems with both 5v5 defending and play-driving that need to be fixed. They also need new special teams coaches (I have no idea what Gordon or whoever was doing on the PP for the last 25-30 games, but it was bad). Fortunately, Fletcher seems to realize that. What he does about it will be interesting.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #835 by Hovercraft » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:19 pm

I'm curious to see what AV will do with the assistant coaches, especially special teams coaches.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #836 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Reading a couple of the AV take-downs ironically has me feeling a bit better about it.

Rags fans were yelling about the treatment of Buchnevich in 17-18. In 18-19, Buchnevich averaged 9 seconds more TOI and was at a similar PPG (and this is with a big shooting percentage jump). The whole Girardi thing is worrying, but Tampa features him too and ppl seem to think Cooper is a top-3 coach, so I dunno, maybe it's not just AV.

Otherwise, there was an entertaining post on BSH from a Rags fan that was yelling about AV not playing young guys like McIlrath, Clendenning, Etem, etc. To which...meh?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #837 by Hovercraft » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Reading a couple of the AV take-downs ironically has me feeling a bit better about it.

Rags fans were yelling about the treatment of Buchnevich in 17-18. In 18-19, Buchnevich averaged 9 seconds more TOI and was at a similar PPG (and this is with a big shooting percentage jump). The whole Girardi thing is worrying, but Tampa features him too and ppl seem to think Cooper is a top-3 coach, so I dunno, maybe it's not just AV.

Otherwise, there was an entertaining post on BSH from a Rags fan that was yelling about AV not playing young guys like McIlrath, Clendenning, Etem, etc. To which...meh?


Yeah I'm not too worried about that. Most coaches play favorites anyway, if that's the biggest complaint. His win% is impressive even if he had some playoff disappointments. A lot of 100 point seasons under his belt. I'm cautiously optimistic he can help us take the next step even if he'll be frustrating at times.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #838 by Rogers Pancreas » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:53 pm

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... story.html

Hey, you remember that thing you loved?

Turns out it was just a big bag of shit all along.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #839 by DeadPhish » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:52 pm

That's disappointing.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #840 by DeadPhish » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:12 am

Well that didn't take long.

https://www.nj.com/flyers/2019/04/flyer ... smith.html

No more God Bless America and the Kate Smith statue will be covered up.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #841 by Kilgore Trout » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:55 am

“We have recently become aware that several songs performed by Kate Smith contain offensive lyrics that do not reflect our values as an organization...”

Fuck off, this can’t possibly be news to them.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #842 by DeadPhish » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:40 am

This guy on reddit does a good job of explaining


I'm all for calling out racist crap when we see it, but let's leave the pitchforks in the barn on this one. It's a false alarm.

If you do five minutes of research (as I just did) you'll see pretty clearly that neither of the recordings in question were racist. In fact Smith recorded "That's Why Darkies Were Born" with famous black activist/singer/actor Paul Robeson specifically as an anti-racism statement.

The other song "Pickaninny Heaven" was from a movie, where Smith played herself and affectionately dedicated a live radio performance to the "little colored children" in an orphanage in New York City. (Of course it was the 1930s and the word "colored" was fine then.) Here's the video.

But the New York Daily News article and the link in this post go out of their way to make it seem as if there was negative racist intent with both of these songs. Why do this? After five minutes of research, to me the complete opposite is true.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #843 by FlyHigh » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:58 am

Haven't listened yet, but apparently on the latest 31 Thoughts, Friedman said that Flyers brass wanted to start trading young guys back in December and Fletcher came in and talked them out of it. Assuming that's true, that provides some comfort. Alternately nervous and excited about this summer.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #844 by Hovercraft » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:05 am

Sounds like Holmgren
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #845 by Rogers Pancreas » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:35 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Sounds like Holmgren

It's possible, but our overlords at Comcast seemed pretty committed to upping the timeline. Aggressively.

His attention focused on the hockey team more than ever, Scott vows the Flyers will be much more aggressive in the free-agent market this summer than they have been recently. One big reason is that, by next season, more than $260 million will have been spent to improve the fan experience at the Wells Fargo Center.

He’s not about to sabotage that by playing it safe with a team that has already disappointed both him and those fans.

"We’re going to keep investing,’’ Scott said. "We’re going to be cap spenders. We want to build the best team possible. Chuck feels good about a lot of what he inherited. He’ll do more than just draft. He has that experience. We’re going to be aggressive.’’
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #846 by Hovercraft » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:16 pm

"Before he coaches Team Canada in the IIHF World Championships in Slovakia next month, Vigneault plans to confer with the current assistant coaches. Some are expected to stay on board."

Plz no more Lappy

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