2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #951 by jester » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:18 am

Looking good on a comp bridge deal for Provorov.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #952 by chaosof99 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:07 pm

Werenski just resigned in Columbus for 3 years, 5 million per. Provorov should be in the same range.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #953 by Hovercraft » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:09 pm

Pretty good deal on a bridge, and keeps rfa rights. Hopefully Provorov wraps up soon.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #954 by vonbonds » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:21 pm

Provorov should get a bit more, he’s going to be a 2 way stud for a decade plus. Werenski doesn’t care as much in his own end albeit not being a slouch either. I just think Provorov is the best young D in the game today yet to hit his prime.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #955 by jester » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:34 pm

vonbonds wrote:Provorov should get a bit more, he’s going to be a 2 way stud for a decade plus. Werenski doesn’t care as much in his own end albeit not being a slouch either. I just think Provorov is the best young D in the game today yet to hit his prime.


Points translate to $$$ much more directly than two-way play, however. Not entirely without reason either. There are plenty of guys floating around out there that can play passable defense and not translate that into offense. Far fewer that can legitimately generate offense from the back at the NHL level.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #956 by vonbonds » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:41 pm

jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:Provorov should get a bit more, he’s going to be a 2 way stud for a decade plus. Werenski doesn’t care as much in his own end albeit not being a slouch either. I just think Provorov is the best young D in the game today yet to hit his prime.


Points translate to $$$ much more directly than two-way play, however. Not entirely without reason either. There are plenty of guys floating around out there that can play passable defense and not translate that into offense. Far fewer that can legitimately generate offense from the back at the NHL level.

Werenski is fun as hell to watch but I’d prefer Seth Jones over him, Provorov’s win championships
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #957 by Kilgore Trout » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:58 pm

17-18 Provorovs win championships
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #958 by jester » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:57 am

vonbonds wrote:
jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:Provorov should get a bit more, he’s going to be a 2 way stud for a decade plus. Werenski doesn’t care as much in his own end albeit not being a slouch either. I just think Provorov is the best young D in the game today yet to hit his prime.


Points translate to $$$ much more directly than two-way play, however. Not entirely without reason either. There are plenty of guys floating around out there that can play passable defense and not translate that into offense. Far fewer that can legitimately generate offense from the back at the NHL level.

Werenski is fun as hell to watch but I’d prefer Seth Jones over him, Provorov’s win championships


Lets be real, plenty of Werenski's win championships too. Guy is 21 and an established 40 point D ... that has pretty immense value (reason I would be hesitant to move on from Ghost -- Provorov is great, but he has not been an effective PP player at all). Ideally you have one of each ... and when you have a guy that can do it all, you have a HoF player.

And, just for comparison. At age 21, Seth Jones had 25, 27, and 31 point campaigns under his belt. He's now entering his prime years (Werenski has years of improvement ahead hopefully). Not for nothing, Jones also is in the midst of a 6x5.4M contract (really good contract at this point).
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #959 by jester » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:02 am

Kilgore Trout wrote:17-18 Provorovs win championships


Maybe. I love Provorov, and he has immense value. But you can see the ceiling there with him. It will be interesting to see if he can find a way to assert himself a bit more offensively. His one flashy offensive season came largely from a ridiculous shooting percentage, and he's never looked comfortable on the PP unit at this level. To the point that it seems quite likely he will not be on either PP unit this year.

One potential benefit there given the theoretical depth of the D talent pool we are growing here, is that you may end up with a couple extra million to spread across other contracts if everyone pans out. It sounds like Provorov is making huge demands this summer, but the reality is that mid-30s D just do not tend to command huge cap hits.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #960 by chicpea » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am

Any thoughts on where Konecny slots in?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #961 by Kilgore Trout » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:28 am

jester wrote:
Kilgore Trout wrote:17-18 Provorovs win championships


Maybe. I love Provorov, and he has immense value. But you can see the ceiling there with him. It will be interesting to see if he can find a way to assert himself a bit more offensively. His one flashy offensive season came largely from a ridiculous shooting percentage, and he's never looked comfortable on the PP unit at this level. To the point that it seems quite likely he will not be on either PP unit this year.

One potential benefit there given the theoretical depth of the D talent pool we are growing here, is that you may end up with a couple extra million to spread across other contracts if everyone pans out. It sounds like Provorov is making huge demands this summer, but the reality is that mid-30s D just do not tend to command huge cap hits.


That’s all fair. I’m thinking more that anyone anointing him now is ignoring the big step back last year.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #962 by Hovercraft » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:45 am

Prorvorov is awesome but him and his agent can't ignore his crap play for at least 50% of last year.


Any thoughts on where Konecny slots in?

Money-wise or lineup? Rumor is that he and Flyers have a 1 year deal they both accept if they dont get a longer deal worked out before camp.

I'd execpt something like 3 year 4.5mil range or maybe something like 6x6. The 1 year deal is probably cheaper like 3ish mil.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #963 by chicpea » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:48 am

I was speaking line-wise but I’m curious about both. Thanks.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #964 by Hovercraft » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:50 am

chicpea wrote:I was speaking line-wise but I’m curious about both. Thanks.


Line wise he should be top line RW with Giroux and Couturier to start the year. If the line stumbles out of the gate Voracek might get moved up instead.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #965 by jester » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:14 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Prorvorov is awesome but him and his agent can't ignore his crap play for at least 50% of last year.


Any thoughts on where Konecny slots in?

Money-wise or lineup? Rumor is that he and Flyers have a 1 year deal they both accept if they dont get a longer deal worked out before camp.

I'd execpt something like 3 year 4.5mil range or maybe something like 6x6. The 1 year deal is probably cheaper like 3ish mil.


A six year deal for Konecny right now seems like a terrible idea ...
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #966 by FlyHigh » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:37 pm

Why 6 years a bad idea with Konecny out of curiosity? He's already a 25 goal guy and that's virtually all at evens. I'd say probable potential for more if they let Giroux-Couturier-TK cook for a full season. I wouldn't mind a 6x6, you'd get his 22-27 seasons at a decent number.

The thing with Provorov (who I also like) is that outside of that 40-50 game stretch with Ghost in 17-18, he's never really driven play or performed like a top-pair D. There are plenty of excuses, rookie season with AMac in 16-17, bad partners overall, the Provy-Sanheim pairing was positive relative to the team last year by a pretty wide margin (whole group was getting caved in under shot-share metrics), etc., but it is what it is.

I wouldn't blame the Flyers for drawing a pretty hard-line in negotations (hopefully without pissing him off). We can debate whether or not it's justified and what Provorov's numbers would be with Jones, but I'd bet that 9 of 10 ppl around the league right now would take Werenski ahead of him and I'm not convinced they'd be wrong.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #967 by jester » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:08 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Why 6 years a bad idea with Konecny out of curiosity? He's already a 25 goal guy and that's virtually all at evens. I'd say probable potential for more if they let Giroux-Couturier-TK cook for a full season. I wouldn't mind a 6x6, you'd get his 22-27 seasons at a decent number.


I mean, I like Konecny a lot and would like to see him stick long term, but ...

1) He's currently a very one-dimensional player.

2) I don't have time to study the stats anymore, but from the summaries of those that do ... he does not drive play. So, he's a skill guy that is a good complement to players that do. That's all fine and good, but is that a guy you want to make a core player (6x6 does that)?

3) He's ... small. Which gives me pause with regard to longevity, particularly given the admirable disdain for his personal safety that he demonstrates on the ice.

4) Where does he fit with this forward group over the next couple of years as other young players emerge? 6x6 hampers flexibility potentially, particularly if he does not grow from the player he has been thus far too much.

Konecny has earned him a pretty solid bridge deal, but 6x6 is not a commitment I would want to make from a cap/contract management perspective. Part of that is that I think you're a couple of years away from some pretty big contract decisions needing to be made, and flexibility will be important. If Patrick reaches his potential, he'll be a better player than Konecny and earn a better contract. Sanheim set himself up for a monster payday if he performs over the next couple of years, etc.

And then there's Carter Hart's next deal ...
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #968 by Hovercraft » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:53 am

Yeah I guess ~3 years does make the most sense right now for both parties right now. Be interesting to see what happens with the expansion draft and all our young players in the next couple of seasons.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #969 by Hovercraft » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:15 am

Sam's contract guesses:

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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #970 by jester » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:34 am

Hovercraft wrote:Sam's contract guesses:



Okay, so Konecny will sign for 6 and Provorov will sign for 3 ...

In all seriousness, though, I would be relatively surprised to see Provorov sign long term at this point. I think his camp (not without reason) is looking for a mammoth contract, while the Flyers are simultaneously not quite ready for that commitment unless it seems like an obvious discount. If I was Provorov and his agent, I would look for a good 2-3 year bridge deal that will secure him financially (10-15+ guaranteed should hold you over) and then look for the term contract the next time around.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #971 by FlyHigh » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:20 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:Why 6 years a bad idea with Konecny out of curiosity? He's already a 25 goal guy and that's virtually all at evens. I'd say probable potential for more if they let Giroux-Couturier-TK cook for a full season. I wouldn't mind a 6x6, you'd get his 22-27 seasons at a decent number.


I mean, I like Konecny a lot and would like to see him stick long term, but ...

1) He's currently a very one-dimensional player.

2) I don't have time to study the stats anymore, but from the summaries of those that do ... he does not drive play. So, he's a skill guy that is a good complement to players that do. That's all fine and good, but is that a guy you want to make a core player (6x6 does that)?

3) He's ... small. Which gives me pause with regard to longevity, particularly given the admirable disdain for his personal safety that he demonstrates on the ice.

4) Where does he fit with this forward group over the next couple of years as other young players emerge? 6x6 hampers flexibility potentially, particularly if he does not grow from the player he has been thus far too much.

Konecny has earned him a pretty solid bridge deal, but 6x6 is not a commitment I would want to make from a cap/contract management perspective. Part of that is that I think you're a couple of years away from some pretty big contract decisions needing to be made, and flexibility will be important. If Patrick reaches his potential, he'll be a better player than Konecny and earn a better contract. Sanheim set himself up for a monster payday if he performs over the next couple of years, etc.

And then there's Carter Hart's next deal ...


My view on the 6x6 is that even if things don't work out, unless he falls off a cliff or gets hurt, that will be a fairly tradeable contract. I mean, say 2 years into the deal they decide they want to move on. At that point, he'll be 24 and hopefully coming off 4 straight 20 goal seasons (and hopefully a 25 or 30 thrown in there). I think they'd find a partner just fine, particularly if the cap goes up.

The playdriving stuff I'm slightly less concerned about, other than Couturier, the Flyers haven't had a C that can drive play in years and Konecny has been hitched to some pretty rough combinations overall when he's away from Couts. My view would be that 6x6 doesn't set him up as a core player (Ghost and AMac certainly weren't/aren't at their numbers, admittedly slightly lower). In any event, seems like an unlikely outcome for understandable reasons. Wouldn't blame Konecny for betting on himself either, if he rides shotgun on the top-line and manages to pop 30-35 in the next couple years, he'll get a pretty big offer from someone.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #972 by jester » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:40 pm

AMac was an albatross contract, and the team *definitely* viewed Ghost as a core player when they signed him to his current deal.

If you give a guy 6 years, you're declaring him a core guy ... if you give him a 6M cap hit, you're investing a non-trivial chunk of your cap in that core piece.

I mean, this is all why giving term to bottom of the roster players is misguided. They are not core guys.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #973 by Hovercraft » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:24 am



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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #974 by jester » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:19 pm

6x6.75 for Provorov. Pretty pleased with that.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #975 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:24 pm

I'm perfectly okay with this
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #976 by Hovercraft » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:04 pm

Yeah that number and term are fair but not too over the top. Solid contract.

Hopefully we'll see Konecny signed this week too.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #977 by FlyHigh » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:25 pm

If Provorov is an actual top-pair guy, that’s an absolute steal.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #978 by CantSeeColors » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:53 am

FlyHigh wrote:If Provorov is an actual top-pair guy, that’s an absolute steal.

The problem is that’s a much bigger if than people seem to realize
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #979 by Hovercraft » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:27 am

I think he is definitely a 1B or #2 kind of Dman. I think we'll see a big improvement for him under AV and not Hak. His shoulder should be 100% again now too.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #980 by vonbonds » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:41 am

He’s going to be a modern day #1. The Pronger/Lidstrom/Stevens/Bourque/Blake type dominating #1’s be it physical, skill or both is sort of a thing of the past. Hedman is a clear #1 but he doesn’t literally own the backline like Lidstrom did (my top defenseman of all time that I’ve watched play). I believe Provorov is going to be a #1 for how the game is played now and real soon.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #981 by Hovercraft » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:50 am

He won't be a 60+ point #1 though is why I said a 1B or #2. He hasn't shown the PP ability to put up monster offensive numbers.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #982 by jester » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:33 am

vonbonds wrote:He’s going to be a modern day #1. The Pronger/Lidstrom/Stevens/Bourque/Blake type dominating #1’s be it physical, skill or both is sort of a thing of the past. Hedman is a clear #1 but he doesn’t literally own the backline like Lidstrom did (my top defenseman of all time that I’ve watched play). I believe Provorov is going to be a #1 for how the game is played now and real soon.


Pronger, Lindstrom, Bourque, Blake, and even Stevens early in his career had a lot more offensive chops than Provorov has shown to this point.

And, if anything, the modern game emphasizes offense creation from the backend much more than back then. That isn't to say Provorov isn't going to be very good for a long time. But he's probably more of a Timonen than a Pronger ... and, even then, Timonen was a very good PP player. The problem with not being a good PPQB in this conversation cannot be overstated, someone needs to fill that role and if it isn't your no. 1 ... it's a bit of a problem in the salary cap world.

We will see. He's still a young D, and he does a lot of things very well. But he's not going to sniffing that upper echelon grouping as a mid-30s point producer. Doesn't mean he won't have tremendous value.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #983 by Hovercraft » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:45 pm

Konecny re-signed 6 years @ 5.5mil. A bit expensive but if he breaks out and gets PP time it should be a great deal.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #984 by FlyHigh » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:35 pm

Yeah I'm completely fine with that one. Worst-case, unless he really does crater, it will certainly be tradeable.

@ Jester, I think you are overstating Provorov's offensive limitations a tad. In his 3 years he's been 31st, 10th, and 50th among NHL D in even-strength points. Haven't dug into the advanced numbers, but just based on the eye test, he is pretty comfortable with the puck on his stick at 5v5 and can more than hold his own in the offensive zone. The PP figures are bad, but I'm less concerned about that because of Ghost/Sanheim and plus, I think the Flyers PP2 problems have gone well beyond any one player at this point.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #985 by jester » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:12 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Yeah I'm completely fine with that one. Worst-case, unless he really does crater, it will certainly be tradeable.

@ Jester, I think you are overstating Provorov's offensive limitations a tad. In his 3 years he's been 31st, 10th, and 50th among NHL D in even-strength points. Haven't dug into the advanced numbers, but just based on the eye test, he is pretty comfortable with the puck on his stick at 5v5 and can more than hold his own in the offensive zone. The PP figures are bad, but I'm less concerned about that because of Ghost/Sanheim and plus, I think the Flyers PP2 problems have gone well beyond any one player at this point.


He looks terrible on the PP. The eye test and the numbers are *bad*. His 10th was backed by an absurd shooting percentage, too. Could he get better here? Yeah, but if you're talking about upper echelon, that's a big negative comparable.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #986 by FlyHigh » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:45 pm

I'm talking strictly ES, he is not good on the PP.

And I mean, how upper-echelon are we talking? I mean, he's never gonna be a Norris finalist and I'd be pleasantly surprised if he becomes a top-10 D (think top-20ish is more realistic if he tops out). That said, there are plenty of guys who are solid top-pairing/No.1 guys (Slavvin, Ekholm, Ryan Ellis, Hamilton, Parayko, Lindholm, Vlasic, etc.) without being PP dynamos.

The broader question is whether the Flyers need him to be a "do-it-all" superstar in order to contend? I tend to think that they probably don't and that if the PP is his primary limitation, they should be fine because of Ghost/Sanheim. If Provorov becomes a Vlasic/Slavvin, I think that is a pretty good outcome, particularly on that contract.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #987 by jester » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:25 pm

FlyHigh wrote:I'm talking strictly ES, he is not good on the PP.

And I mean, how upper-echelon are we talking? I mean, he's never gonna be a Norris finalist and I'd be pleasantly surprised if he becomes a top-10 D (think top-20ish is more realistic if he tops out). That said, there are plenty of guys who are solid top-pairing/No.1 guys (Slavvin, Ekholm, Ryan Ellis, Hamilton, Parayko, Lindholm, Vlasic, etc.) without being PP dynamos.

The broader question is whether the Flyers need him to be a "do-it-all" superstar in order to contend? I tend to think that they probably don't and that if the PP is his primary limitation, they should be fine because of Ghost/Sanheim. If Provorov becomes a Vlasic/Slavvin, I think that is a pretty good outcome, particularly on that contract.


I mean, read the post I was responding to.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #988 by jester » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:27 pm

On Konecny's contract: well played by his agent. As noted previously I would have preferred a bridge deal for him. Of course, I tend to be much more conservative than NHL GMs.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #989 by FlyHigh » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:51 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:I'm talking strictly ES, he is not good on the PP.

And I mean, how upper-echelon are we talking? I mean, he's never gonna be a Norris finalist and I'd be pleasantly surprised if he becomes a top-10 D (think top-20ish is more realistic if he tops out). That said, there are plenty of guys who are solid top-pairing/No.1 guys (Slavvin, Ekholm, Ryan Ellis, Hamilton, Parayko, Lindholm, Vlasic, etc.) without being PP dynamos.

The broader question is whether the Flyers need him to be a "do-it-all" superstar in order to contend? I tend to think that they probably don't and that if the PP is his primary limitation, they should be fine because of Ghost/Sanheim. If Provorov becomes a Vlasic/Slavvin, I think that is a pretty good outcome, particularly on that contract.


I mean, read the post I was responding to.


Huh? Does the entire argument = Provorov will not be a good PP QB and this will be a fatal flaw to stop him from being an upper-echelon player? Assumed that you were making a broader offensive case with him.

He's already an average to above-average offensive D at ES. If the argument is that there is a massive difference between a 35-40 point d-man who dominates at ES and a 55-60 point d-man who dominates at ES and is good on a PP top-unit, that is fair enough. I tend to disagree and I don't think it's a meaningful issue for the Flyers as long as Ghost is in the organization.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #990 by jester » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:05 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:I'm talking strictly ES, he is not good on the PP.

And I mean, how upper-echelon are we talking? I mean, he's never gonna be a Norris finalist and I'd be pleasantly surprised if he becomes a top-10 D (think top-20ish is more realistic if he tops out). That said, there are plenty of guys who are solid top-pairing/No.1 guys (Slavvin, Ekholm, Ryan Ellis, Hamilton, Parayko, Lindholm, Vlasic, etc.) without being PP dynamos.

The broader question is whether the Flyers need him to be a "do-it-all" superstar in order to contend? I tend to think that they probably don't and that if the PP is his primary limitation, they should be fine because of Ghost/Sanheim. If Provorov becomes a Vlasic/Slavvin, I think that is a pretty good outcome, particularly on that contract.


I mean, read the post I was responding to.


Huh? Does the entire argument = Provorov will not be a good PP QB and this will be a fatal flaw to stop him from being an upper-echelon player? Assumed that you were making a broader offensive case with him. I

He's already an average to above-average offensive D at ES. If the argument is that there is a massive difference between a 35-40 point d-man who dominates at ES and a 55-60 point d-man who dominates at ES and is good on a PP top-unit, that is fair enough. I tend to disagree and I don't think it's a meaningful issue for the Flyers as long as Ghost is in the organization.


Vonbonds was comparing Provorov to first ballot HoFers.

Is Provorov very good? Yes. Does he have some limitations? Yes. One of those limitations is non-trivial at the top level, particularly when you get to contracts. Based on reports Provorov's camp was looking for a monster deal, and that's not realistic if you don't perform well in all situations.

And, yes, the Flyers have a good situation right now if Ghost performs as expected as opposed to like last year. Ghost, however, has his own questions. If he's a PPQB and third pairing non-PKer that ain't ideal.

Look, I like Provorov a lot and I'm cool with his contract, but it isn't fair to put him up with Pronger, Bourque, Lindstrom, etc. He's just nowhere near that level right now. I think Timonen is a better comp, but again, Timonen was a very effective PP player.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #991 by FlyHigh » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:23 am

Think the whole point of the post is that he won't be dominant the way those guys were, but would be a No.1 for the modern game. I think that is probably right if he hits his potential. I don't think anyone is saying "Provorov will be the modern day Chris Pronger."

The overall point there is interesting, other than Karlsson (and maybe Burns), it's hard to think of guys that are "dominant" the way some of the historical greats were. Probably an argument that the way the game is played now doesn't allow for the same kind of impact (though a guy like Chara would be a good counter I suppose).
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #992 by Rogers Pancreas » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:08 pm

jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:He’s going to be a modern day #1. The Pronger/Lidstrom/Stevens/Bourque/Blake type dominating #1’s be it physical, skill or both is sort of a thing of the past. Hedman is a clear #1 but he doesn’t literally own the backline like Lidstrom did (my top defenseman of all time that I’ve watched play). I believe Provorov is going to be a #1 for how the game is played now and real soon.


Pronger, Lindstrom, Bourque, Blake, and even Stevens early in his career had a lot more offensive chops than Provorov has shown to this point.

And, if anything, the modern game emphasizes offense creation from the backend much more than back then. That isn't to say Provorov isn't going to be very good for a long time. But he's probably more of a Timonen than a Pronger ... and, even then, Timonen was a very good PP player. The problem with not being a good PPQB in this conversation cannot be overstated, someone needs to fill that role and if it isn't your no. 1 ... it's a bit of a problem in the salary cap world.

We will see. He's still a young D, and he does a lot of things very well. But he's not going to sniffing that upper echelon grouping as a mid-30s point producer. Doesn't mean he won't have tremendous value.

Who's to say Sanheim doesn't emerge as this team's no.1, creating a similar dynamic as Keith/Seabrook for the 'Hawks? It's not exactly as if Provorov's being paid close to a no.1, given the contracts associated with Doughty, Karlsson, et al?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #993 by Hovercraft » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:36 pm

Sanheim still has some big holes in his defensive game he'll need to sort out before any chance at being a #1:

Image


I think it is great that we have such a promising young D core between those 3 and Myers. They are all different players with unique strengths and weaknesses and it should lead to a talented and well rounded group.

6.75 mil is not really #1 d man money like RP said. It's more like #2 money in today's cap
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #994 by jester » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:16 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:He’s going to be a modern day #1. The Pronger/Lidstrom/Stevens/Bourque/Blake type dominating #1’s be it physical, skill or both is sort of a thing of the past. Hedman is a clear #1 but he doesn’t literally own the backline like Lidstrom did (my top defenseman of all time that I’ve watched play). I believe Provorov is going to be a #1 for how the game is played now and real soon.


Pronger, Lindstrom, Bourque, Blake, and even Stevens early in his career had a lot more offensive chops than Provorov has shown to this point.

And, if anything, the modern game emphasizes offense creation from the backend much more than back then. That isn't to say Provorov isn't going to be very good for a long time. But he's probably more of a Timonen than a Pronger ... and, even then, Timonen was a very good PP player. The problem with not being a good PPQB in this conversation cannot be overstated, someone needs to fill that role and if it isn't your no. 1 ... it's a bit of a problem in the salary cap world.

We will see. He's still a young D, and he does a lot of things very well. But he's not going to sniffing that upper echelon grouping as a mid-30s point producer. Doesn't mean he won't have tremendous value.

Who's to say Sanheim doesn't emerge as this team's no.1, creating a similar dynamic as Keith/Seabrook for the 'Hawks? It's not exactly as if Provorov's being paid close to a no.1, given the contracts associated with Doughty, Karlsson, et al?


Well, exactly. I'm just disputing the pedestal vonbonds was building.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #995 by jester » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:24 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Think the whole point of the post is that he won't be dominant the way those guys were, but would be a No.1 for the modern game. I think that is probably right if he hits his potential. I don't think anyone is saying "Provorov will be the modern day Chris Pronger."

The overall point there is interesting, other than Karlsson (and maybe Burns), it's hard to think of guys that are "dominant" the way some of the historical greats were. Probably an argument that the way the game is played now doesn't allow for the same kind of impact (though a guy like Chara would be a good counter I suppose).


Hedmen is pretty fucking good.

If Provorov doesn't improve offensively, and ideally have some input on the PP ... there is going to be a tier of guys ahead of him. May not look like Pronger, but those alphas exist in every generation. I don't think he's that. We've had guys in that second tier before (Desjardins, Timonen, KJ for a stretch ...), and they are very good. But there's a difference.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #996 by FlyHigh » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:45 pm

Well, as I said at the outset, it'd be shocking if Provorov ever got into Norris trophy contention and I'd be surprised if he ever was consistently viewed as a top-10 D.

The broader question for the org is whether you can win without a superstar, particularly once Couturier starts to decline. I think there is probably a path there, with the Blues and Golden Knights in 17-18 being recent examples, but it's definitely trickier. If there is one "failure" of Hextall's tenure, I think it's the fact that he was the GM for 5 years and wasn't able to acquire a skater with star/superstar potential. Obviously not completely his fault, Flyers only had 1 top-5 pick during his tenure of course (although it increasingly looks like they may have whiffed there when you look at the rest of the top-5 in that draft) and finding those guys is really freaking tough, but he found a lot of potentially "very good" guys and nobody outside of Provorov (and maybe Sanheim if you are feeling very optimistic) who reasonably projects as top-25 at his position. Hart obviously being the X-factor here...
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #997 by vonbonds » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:05 pm

jester wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
Pronger, Lindstrom, Bourque, Blake, and even Stevens early in his career had a lot more offensive chops than Provorov has shown to this point.

And, if anything, the modern game emphasizes offense creation from the backend much more than back then. That isn't to say Provorov isn't going to be very good for a long time. But he's probably more of a Timonen than a Pronger ... and, even then, Timonen was a very good PP player. The problem with not being a good PPQB in this conversation cannot be overstated, someone needs to fill that role and if it isn't your no. 1 ... it's a bit of a problem in the salary cap world.

We will see. He's still a young D, and he does a lot of things very well. But he's not going to sniffing that upper echelon grouping as a mid-30s point producer. Doesn't mean he won't have tremendous value.

Who's to say Sanheim doesn't emerge as this team's no.1, creating a similar dynamic as Keith/Seabrook for the 'Hawks? It's not exactly as if Provorov's being paid close to a no.1, given the contracts associated with Doughty, Karlsson, et al?


Well, exactly. I'm just disputing the pedestal vonbonds was building.

Trade proposal, Will Butcher for Provorov...one for one
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #998 by Rogers Pancreas » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:09 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Well, as I said at the outset, it'd be shocking if Provorov ever got into Norris trophy contention and I'd be surprised if he ever was consistently viewed as a top-10 D.

The broader question for the org is whether you can win without a superstar, particularly once Couturier starts to decline. I think there is probably a path there, with the Blues and Golden Knights in 17-18 being recent examples, but it's definitely trickier. If there is one "failure" of Hextall's tenure, I think it's the fact that he was the GM for 5 years and wasn't able to acquire a skater with star/superstar potential. Obviously not completely his fault, Flyers only had 1 top-5 pick during his tenure of course (although it increasingly looks like they may have whiffed there when you look at the rest of the top-5 in that draft) and finding those guys is really freaking tough, but he found a lot of potentially "very good" guys and nobody outside of Provorov (and maybe Sanheim if you are feeling very optimistic) who reasonably projects as top-25 at his position. Hart obviously being the X-factor here...

I still wouldn't rule out Patrick, FlyHigh. Richards broke out at the age of 22. Giroux broke out at 23. Carter broke out at 24. Couturier at 25. The fucking kid is 20, right now. There is still plenty of time to prove that he's at least as capable of Couturier (who shares at lot of the same underlying metrics at the same age.)

I like your point about Hart, but I'm not sure I want to be a team where the best player is a guy that's only going to play 75% of the regular season, while chewing up 15-20% of the fucking cap. I'm obviously hoping for him to develop into something special, so we can see history develop the same way as Giroux, but in a capped NHL it may not be ideal.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #999 by FlyHigh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:19 pm

I'm not ruling him out, but I think the first two years have been disappointing at a minimum (particularly compared to 3-5) and the current injury saga does not inspire confidence.

Also, to be Mr. Pedantic, he does turn 21 tomorrow. It's not like the clock is ticking yet, but 22-27/28 is supposed to be prime and he'll be there next year. Couturier does not get enough credit for being an absolute beast for most of his career who was consistently saddled with below-average linemates (outside of isolated spurts with Voracek, Matt Read was probably his best linemate for his first 5 years in the league). I would be thrilled if Patrick turned into Couturier, but unfortunately, I don't think he's shown nearly enough yet to make that a reasonable comp. I dunno, he's had games where you really can see the Toews comparisons, particularly on the defensive side, but then plenty of other ones where it just hasn't been there.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #1000 by jester » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:08 am

Patrick has shown flashes of a high level of play earlier than Richards/Carter did, I would say. Just hasn't sustained it yet. I think there's every reason to believe in a pop off year in the next year or two. We will see.

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