News from Around the NHL 2

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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5151 by Hovercraft » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:43 pm

Canada's systemic and historic racism is/was primarily targeted at indigenous populations, but we are definitely not immune to anti-black racism even if we are a lot better than the USA on that front.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5152 by jester » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:47 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Canada's systemic and historic racism is/was primarily targeted at indigenous populations, but we definitely not immune to anti-black racism even if we are a lot better than the USA on that front.


Yeah, it's a different conversation. And *all* primarily white British descent societies had racial issues (e.g., Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand, etc.). Facts on the ground, however, dictated a lot about how that looked and played out. So, both Canada and the US treated indigenous populations horribly. But Canada did not have plantation slave societies in its geographic space the way the US did, so there is a pretty big fork in the road culturally there ... which, in the US, runs from founding through the Civil War, failure of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, Civil Rights era, etc. In fact, one of the myths of US history is that we no longer live in Reconstruction/Civil Rights eras. We very much do, which is why BLM is such a salient feature of the zeitgeist.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5153 by Hovercraft » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:53 pm

Yeah I watched that documentary on Netflix recently "the 13th", pretty eye opening as an outsider just how messed up and racist the systems in the US still are even so long after the end if the civil war. The oppression just mutates with the changing times but never goes away.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5154 by jester » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:53 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Yeah I watched that documentary on Netflix recently "the 13th", pretty eye opening as an outsider just how messed up and racist the systems in the US still are even so long after the end if the civil war. The oppression just mutates with the changing times but never goes away.


Important to note that the fact that it hasn't gone away was and is a choice. It can be rooted out if we choose to do it.

But, yeah, it's going to be hard for folks that didn't grow around these cultures, likely didn't get educated in US history to any great depth, etc. to really speak to this stuff. And it isn't really fair to expect it of them.

I mean, I went to a conference a couple years back and met some great Canadian HS teachers ... and one of them taught government but had only a passing understanding of the logistics of the US legislative process. She was very well versed in how parliamentary systems worked, etc.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5155 by FlyHigh » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:20 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:If those guys are outsiders in the U.S. and if Canada’s problem is much less severe (which I would tend to agree with though I don’t have firsthand knowledge), then why say anything in the first place?

Many of these guys (thinking about Toews in particular) and virtually all of the teams chose to speak initially when it was easy to put up a Twitter note or an Instagram post. But now when it comes to the “action” portion, they’re nowhere. Once teams and players/teams chose to speak, they took on responsibility to make their words count. If they didn’t want to be held to account, then they should have stayed silent.


I mean, the vast majority of them are not US citizens and cannot vote. Many of them will return home as soon as their careers are over. I'm not sure why saying something in support of the BLM message equates to a necessity that they take on more of a leadership role in a grassroots domestic protest movement concerning US socio-economic and political issues.

Again, the NHL for a variety of reasons is not the NBA/NFL/MLB on this front. They just aren't. They aren't even in the US right now.


Over a quarter of the league is American and another 43% are Canadian. 25 of the 32 teams are US-based. The league has a pretty significant amount of young American stars. The only reason they aren’t here now is because of a truly staggering failure in U.S. government leadership (story for another day). League desperately wanted to be in Vegas.

Saying something in support of BLM and then just going about business as usual and pretending nothing happened pretty much misses the entire point of the movement and I’d imagine its pretty insulting for the Black/minority players in the game. You look at Kadri’s quotes yesterday and DSP’s from a couple years back and it’s just depressing. Even NASCAR has shown more leadership on this one...

The whole “it’s not their place” argument falls apart when you read all of those quotes from players saying that they needed to educate themselves. If they didn’t want to join in, that’s fine, but then don’t make the statement.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5156 by jester » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:53 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:If those guys are outsiders in the U.S. and if Canada’s problem is much less severe (which I would tend to agree with though I don’t have firsthand knowledge), then why say anything in the first place?

Many of these guys (thinking about Toews in particular) and virtually all of the teams chose to speak initially when it was easy to put up a Twitter note or an Instagram post. But now when it comes to the “action” portion, they’re nowhere. Once teams and players/teams chose to speak, they took on responsibility to make their words count. If they didn’t want to be held to account, then they should have stayed silent.


I mean, the vast majority of them are not US citizens and cannot vote. Many of them will return home as soon as their careers are over. I'm not sure why saying something in support of the BLM message equates to a necessity that they take on more of a leadership role in a grassroots domestic protest movement concerning US socio-economic and political issues.

Again, the NHL for a variety of reasons is not the NBA/NFL/MLB on this front. They just aren't. They aren't even in the US right now.


Over a quarter of the league is American and another 43% are Canadian. 25 of the 32 teams are US-based. The league has a pretty significant amount of young American stars. The only reason they aren’t here now is because of a truly staggering failure in U.S. government leadership (story for another day). League desperately wanted to be in Vegas.

Saying something in support of BLM and then just going about business as usual and pretending nothing happened pretty much misses the entire point of the movement and I’d imagine its pretty insulting for the Black/minority players in the game. You look at Kadri’s quotes yesterday and DSP’s from a couple years back and it’s just depressing. Even NASCAR has shown more leadership on this one...

The whole “it’s not their place” argument falls apart when you read all of those quotes from players saying that they needed to educate themselves. If they didn’t want to join in, that’s fine, but then don’t make the statement.


If they need to educate themselves, then they probably should shut up. World would be a lot better if the ignorant heeded such circumspection on the regular.

NASCAR is a sport of the Deep South with a long-standing Confederate battle flag problem. It's not the NHL.

Not for nothing, but it's worth stating, the only people that might give a shit what the NHL and it's players think are NHL fans. Again, they can do more, sure, but the NHL is in an odd spot and has a very different relationship to these issues than other leagues. It just does. To an extent, that speaks directly to the poor diversity of the league, but, as per Hover's point, via Canada you also have the First Nation dynamic which has resulted in issues and is less pronounced in other leagues.

And seriously, stop conflating Canadians and Americans. They aren't the same.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5157 by FlyHigh » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:56 pm

Most, if not all, of HDA’s leadership is Canadian, what exactly are you looking for there? Canada is not the U.S. That doesn’t mean systemic racism doesn’t exist there. Germany and UK are not the U.S., has not stopped players in both countries from kneeling before kickoffs in matches.

The whole point here is that there is, and has been, a serious problem in many world societies (including Canada/US) with systemic racism. The NHL and the broader hockey community have well-documented issues with race. The NHL’s consistent response has been to downplay/ignore. Brandon Manning got 5 games earlier this year for using a racial slur. In soccer, a sport with a myriad of governance issues and a well-documented racism problem, a Leeds United GK recently got 8 months for doing the same thing.

The NHL clearly just wants to go back to business as usual and most player seem to be on board with that. I don’t see how anyone can see that as anything else besides deeply disappointing.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5158 by jester » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:58 am

FlyHigh wrote:Most, if not all, of HDA’s leadership is Canadian, what exactly are you looking for there? Canada is not the U.S. That doesn’t mean systemic racism doesn’t exist there. Germany and UK are not the U.S., has not stopped players in both countries from kneeling before kickoffs in matches.

The whole point here is that there is, and has been, a serious problem in many world societies (including Canada/US) with systemic racism. The NHL and the broader hockey community have well-documented issues with race. The NHL’s consistent response has been to downplay/ignore. Brandon Manning got 5 games earlier this year for using a racial slur. In soccer, a sport with a myriad of governance issues and a well-documented racism problem, a Leeds United GK recently got 8 months for doing the same thing.

The NHL clearly just wants to go back to business as usual and most player seem to be on board with that. I don’t see how anyone can see that as anything else besides deeply disappointing.


Yes, systemic racism is widespread. BLM, however, as a grassroots US political movement, and the protests we have witnessed in recent months are going after a very particular political, legal, and socio-economic form of systemic racism. At this moment in history, European countries are dealing with a significant cultural backlash against non-white, non-Christian, etc. immigrant populations. There are a lot of reasons why that is happening. Evidence shows that strong social safety nets result in harsh policing of in- and out-group lines in order to protect resources. It is also due to the fact that following WWII, European countries experienced decades of largely homogeneous populations due to demographic movements (and removals) that took place 1939-45. As you note, in European soccer there is overt racism, much of it related to this post-colonial backlash against immigrant groups.

None of that is remotely like what we have here in the US. It's literally not comparable, and that includes Canada. That is literally the entire goddamn point of the 1619 Project (which I will tell you in a professional capacity is far from perfect historical scholarship, but is a lot better than most public discourse on these issues). Canada, for example, does not and never did have the Virginia Slave Laws baked into its legal structure. It never had slave societies included in its political space. Neither did any European countries. Not one of 'em. Take France, for example, where slavery was illegal throughout the ancien regime and they had to provide a carve out for the slaves of Saint Domingue plantation owners that traveled back home with them. They proudly proclaimed that there were "No Slaves in France!" -- there were some in the French empire, though, which was over there and very far away and no one thought too much about it while putting sugar in their coffee. If you want to find peer groups on this front, you're going to have to look elsewhere (Brazil, West Indies, etc.). And that's before you get to US history from Constitution to 1960, which I'm going to go out on a limb and say NHL players on average know very, very little about.

So, yeah, racism and systemic racism exist in the world outside of the US, but given that race is a social construct ... it is constructed and treated in very different ways in different places. And we shouldn't act like it's apples to apples. Nor should we ignore that reality in demands that a league made up by a majority of non-US athletes respond to what is going on in the US.

Can hockey and whatever do more? Sure, but lets not act like its easy, and lets not act like NHL and the NBA are in the same boat. For example, as you note there are pretty specific diversity issues that predated recent events. Specifically, the NHL is an almost entirely white league. That ... is not the NBA (or NFL). And before you point out that this is part of the problem (obviously it is!), it's also a problem that is very hard to fix. Is the NHL so white because they actively avoid drafting and developing people of color to play in the league, or is the reality that there is only a limited pool of athletes to choose from? The former is on the NHL, the latter is a much tougher problem and stretches well beyond the capacity of the NHL to address.

And, for real, lets not dress up critiques of the NHL by holding up the other domestic leagues as paragons of virtue on this front. As noted, the NFL has actively suppressed its athletes bringing attention to this issue. For a number of years now the league and various ownership groups have publicly sided against the protests, and stood silently while the POTUS (who many of them contributed vast sums to) literally shit on their players for political points, and allowed Pence to pull a publicity stunt walking out of one of their games. The NBA has allowed its players to be rather public in political statements at points in recent years on this issue ("I Can't Breathe" shirts, for example), but, as said, the NBA is a league where the top players have immense power in league politics AND the league is particularly well attuned to interface with these movements. Other leagues have ... looked a lot like the NHL.

So, that then gets to the question, independent of owners ... do players really want their games to become places of political protest about a US political issue? Do they feel comfortable answering questions about that (suspect many do not)? If they start talking about BLM on the regular (sure, they can), are they going to start addressing First Nation issues in a public way given the large percentage of Canadian athletes?

Ultimately, all of these leagues have essentially followed the lead of their players ... and the NHL just has a different player base than the other sports.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5159 by FlyHigh » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:27 am

That is a very long post. Eric Trump is a big fan of what the NHL is doing. HDA has come out and said that what the NHL is doing is not enough. Bruce Arthur, a thoughtful (Canadian) journalist, has come out and said it’s not enough. The NHL and its players have culpability here. I’ll take the side that isn’t the one with Eric Trump. That’s pretty much it.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5160 by jester » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:32 pm

FlyHigh wrote:That is a very long post. Eric Trump is a big fan of what the NHL is doing. HDA has come out and said that what the NHL is doing is not enough. Bruce Arthur, a thoughtful (Canadian) journalist, has come out and said it’s not enough. The NHL and its players have culpability here. I’ll take the side that isn’t the one with Eric Trump. That’s pretty much it.


Eric Trump is the dumb Trump ... and Don Jr was such an asshole that I heard about it in the first week I was on campus at Penn.

So, you think non-American players should kneel during the US anthem? Because that's what Trump liked. And sure, that's a statement, but it's a *much different* statement than when Americans do it. His post was purely-distilled stupid. Of course, he also posted a photo of Epstein ... that was a cropped photo of Epstein with his father, so maybe don't take his social media habits as good analysis.

It's complicated, people are going to have diverse opinions. The NHL is going to get criticized no matter what they do ... but, seriously, we can be adults and recognize that it's complicated.

And, for all that is holy, lets not act like any of the leagues have handled this particularly well. Because that's almost as dumb as Eric Trump.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5161 by FlyHigh » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:33 pm

If the Black players in your league are unhappy with what you’re doing...maybe re-think what you’re doing. The fact that someone like Eric Trump thinks it’s great just adds to the point.

I like debating as much as the next internet commenter, but this has just become circular. You see it the way you see it, I see it the way I see it.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5162 by CantSeeColors » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:26 am

FlyHigh, what do you propose the NHL actually do here? Or is it the players? I can’t even tell which group you’re unhappy with
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5163 by Kilgore Trout » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:55 am

CantSeeColors wrote:FlyHigh, what do you propose the NHL actually do here? Or is it the players? I can’t even tell which group you’re unhappy with


A grander empty gesture.
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Re: News from Around the NHL

Post #5164 by FlyHigh » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:27 am

For the league, would mainly look to take more advice from HDA and try to start making changes to increase minority presence in and around the league. Obviously they can’t do nearly as much in Europe, but a lot of players have come out and talked about racism hey have faced in the sport in NA. Per TSN HDA has presented a number of proposals to (among other things) increase Black and minority hiring around the league for both hockey/non-hockey ops, fund grassroots programs to get kids from disadvantaged backgrounds involved in the sport, etc. Apparently NHL has not agreed to any of these. I tend to be wary of empty gestures as well, but “I stand for” instead of “Black Lives Matter” and trying to make it about frontline workers too is such an obvious cop out. HDA wasn’t consulted at all on the re-opening and gestures/acknowledgements to make, which seems bizarre to me.

For players, a greater willingness to speak up on this one. If someone like Crosby (or pick your player here) continued to press the league on this issue and why they haven’t been able to reach agreement with HDA, why HDA wasn’t involved in re-opening planning, etc., I think that’d have a significant impact.

And yeah, I can see why some of the more obvious gestures seem empty/dumb. For NBA/soccer, is kneeling really a protest if everybody is doing it? Kneeling in soccer doesn’t change the fact that UEFA probably still doesn’t care about racism. And not really trying to come off as Captain SJW here. But I do think that hockey’s response has been lacking.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5165 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:57 am

"Speaking up" is as vague as it is ineffective. If the NHL wanted to make a public statement on enging racism in the league, they'd make a tangible investment, and start up ice hockey programs in low income areas that would otherwise turn to basketball or football (where the start-up cost for [black] families is more manageable.) Because that is what we're seeing, I think.

Kids in cities whose families don't have a lot of money pick up ball, and go with it. More affluent families can absord the cost of equipment, icetime, travel, trainers, etc. And that's in large part where the disparity in race distribution stems from. It's also why no amount of hand holding, soap boxing, or affirmative action policy enforcement (I'm looking at you, NFL) will amount to any amount of lasting change. Because the economics of the league will continue to dictate that only the most committed and/or affluent families "succeed."

By the way, has anyone else noticed the amount of former players' sons in the league today? Just saying.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5166 by FlyHigh » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:30 am

I generally agree with you RP, but have been somewhat surprised to learn that apparently those types of gestures (kneeling, the slogans on the back of the jerseys, etc.) apparently are significant to folks in different communities. To the extent HDA or other minority organizations/communities think that those gestures are meaningful/powerful, I don’t see why NHL wouldn’t do it.

But yeah, the grassroots investment is pretty important. Something that folks have advocated for and that the NHL is apparently unwilling to move on, so no real surprise that the sport will remain one for rich white kids, because nobody that has power in the league really wants to change that.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5167 by jester » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:40 pm

FlyHigh wrote:If the Black players in your league are unhappy with what you’re doing...maybe re-think what you’re doing. The fact that someone like Eric Trump thinks it’s great just adds to the point.

I like debating as much as the next internet commenter, but this has just become circular. You see it the way you see it, I see it the way I see it.


Counterpoint: the next smart thought Eric Trump has will be the first, so maybe ignore him for analytical conclusions? Just because a famous person says something doesn't mean it should carry any weight.

And Dumba's presentation before the game today highlights why this is a massive minefield for the NHL. A Canadian player gave a very eloquent speech, and then knelt for the US anthem before standing for the Canadian. That's going to infuriate some folks that would otherwise be open to criticism of the US. It also directly undercuts the universality of his talk and turns it into a pointed critique of the US. And that's fine for him, but ... it's something other than, say, the NBA is dealing with.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5168 by jester » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:44 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:"Speaking up" is as vague as it is ineffective. If the NHL wanted to make a public statement on enging racism in the league, they'd make a tangible investment, and start up ice hockey programs in low income areas that would otherwise turn to basketball or football (where the start-up cost for [black] families is more manageable.) Because that is what we're seeing, I think.

Kids in cities whose families don't have a lot of money pick up ball, and go with it. More affluent families can absord the cost of equipment, icetime, travel, trainers, etc. And that's in large part where the disparity in race distribution stems from. It's also why no amount of hand holding, soap boxing, or affirmative action policy enforcement (I'm looking at you, NFL) will amount to any amount of lasting change. Because the economics of the league will continue to dictate that only the most committed and/or affluent families "succeed."

By the way, has anyone else noticed the amount of former players' sons in the league today? Just saying.


The draw to sports is more than just cost barriers. Basketball and Football (which ain't cheap, for the record) has more to do with the cultural pull of the sport. US would be a lot better at soccer internationally if cost was the primary factor driving choice at low socio-economic levels. Baseball also wouldn't be struggling.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5169 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:26 pm

jester wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:"Speaking up" is as vague as it is ineffective. If the NHL wanted to make a public statement on enging racism in the league, they'd make a tangible investment, and start up ice hockey programs in low income areas that would otherwise turn to basketball or football (where the start-up cost for [black] families is more manageable.) Because that is what we're seeing, I think.

Kids in cities whose families don't have a lot of money pick up ball, and go with it. More affluent families can absord the cost of equipment, icetime, travel, trainers, etc. And that's in large part where the disparity in race distribution stems from. It's also why no amount of hand holding, soap boxing, or affirmative action policy enforcement (I'm looking at you, NFL) will amount to any amount of lasting change. Because the economics of the league will continue to dictate that only the most committed and/or affluent families "succeed."

By the way, has anyone else noticed the amount of former players' sons in the league today? Just saying.


The draw to sports is more than just cost barriers. Basketball and Football (which ain't cheap, for the record) has more to do with the cultural pull of the sport. US would be a lot better at soccer internationally if cost was the primary factor driving choice at low socio-economic levels. Baseball also wouldn't be struggling.

True, but in order to become more attractive to young black athletes, they have to make it more financially viable. So, I agree with you, but it's not going to happen by itself and it isn't going to happen over night.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5170 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:29 pm

FlyHigh wrote:I generally agree with you RP, but have been somewhat surprised to learn that apparently those types of gestures (kneeling, the slogans on the back of the jerseys, etc.) apparently are significant to folks in different communities. To the extent HDA or other minority organizations/communities think that those gestures are meaningful/powerful, I don’t see why NHL wouldn’t do it.

But yeah, the grassroots investment is pretty important. Something that folks have advocated for and that the NHL is apparently unwilling to move on, so no real surprise that the sport will remain one for rich white kids, because nobody that has power in the league really wants to change that.

So, it means something to the individuals being oppressed. But what does it mean to the people responsible for dictating policy in this country, which is ultimately going to lend itself to meaningful, longterm change? I just don't see how these gestures amount to anything of significance. It's just like how everyone blacked out their Instagram pages not too long ago. Nice gesture. But where did it get us?
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5171 by jester » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:33 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:True, but in order to become more attractive to young black athletes, they have to make it more financially viable. So, I agree with you, but it's not going to happen by itself and it isn't going to happen over night.


Sure, and as mentioned above I think the Snider program will do good things, but the reality is that you're also competing against forces outside your control. MLB is in free fall right now, but that's a process that began in the mid 20th c. with the advent of the modern NFL and accelerated with the modern NBA in the Jordan era. Plenty of opportunities to play baseball get walked past.

Now, who knows what happens in the concussion era with regard to football (but it's not like hockey is safe on that front). Honestly, I expect to see major growth in soccer in the coming years. In part because affluent families will bar their kids from playing football.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5172 by jester » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:40 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:I generally agree with you RP, but have been somewhat surprised to learn that apparently those types of gestures (kneeling, the slogans on the back of the jerseys, etc.) apparently are significant to folks in different communities. To the extent HDA or other minority organizations/communities think that those gestures are meaningful/powerful, I don’t see why NHL wouldn’t do it.

But yeah, the grassroots investment is pretty important. Something that folks have advocated for and that the NHL is apparently unwilling to move on, so no real surprise that the sport will remain one for rich white kids, because nobody that has power in the league really wants to change that.

So, it means something to the individuals being oppressed. But what does it mean to the people responsible for dictating policy in this country, which is ultimately going to lend itself to meaningful, longterm change? I just don't see how these gestures amount to anything of significance. It's just like how everyone blacked out their Instagram pages not too long ago. Nice gesture. But where did it get us?


$$$

Brands aren't going to want to be associated with stuff, and that leads to changes (e.g. Redskins name change).

It also creates space for policy changes that might not have otherwise happened. If opinion moves, that enables legislative action that might not have occurred otherwise.

That said, the record on the efficacy of protest/activism is much more checkered than proponents often imagine, which is why smart tactics and strategy are just as important as energy and righteousness. As noted above, I think Dumba taking a knee during the US anthem but not the Canadian anthem was a pretty notable error in judgement.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5173 by DeadPhish » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:30 pm

The Leafs must hate winning.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5174 by Rogers Pancreas » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:04 am

They have the mental toughness of a toddler.
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CantSeeColors
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5175 by CantSeeColors » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:36 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:They have the mental toughness of a toddler.

No way. My toddler is mentally tougher than most adults I know.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5176 by Kilgore Trout » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:39 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:They have the mental toughness of a toddler.

No way. My toddler is mentally tougher than most adults I know.


Yea, toddlers have reckless self confidence.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5177 by FlyHigh » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:42 pm

Not being able to enjoy that Pens choke because of the terror that they get Lafreniere is just cruel.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5178 by chaosof99 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:25 am

I still laughed my ass off when I saw the puck just slowly roll over the line for the ENG after being shot off the boards in the other zone. Thing of beauty.

I only watched the highlights this morning and seeing Toronto go down 3-0 on a boneheaded play I though they were toast. Then they come back and win in OT. That is actually possibly the even better outcome. Both teams can piss up a rope for all I care, but either Toronto and their pathetic franchise or Torts blowing it before even making it to the playoffs is hilarious. Foligno being the guy who took the penalty in OT is also hilarious for me, because fuck that guy.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #5179 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:57 am

FlyHigh wrote:Not being able to enjoy that Pens choke because of the terror that they get Lafreniere is just cruel.

I'm not worried. If history has taught us anything it's that wingers don't matter.
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