OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6151 by jester » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:35 pm

Hovercraft wrote:
jester wrote:
Hovercraft wrote:The bottom line is that Trump and the GOP are allowing racism, white supremacy and misogyny to be normalized and grow again. They are giving the scum of the earth the confidence to come out from under their rocks and feel comfortable with their hate fueled opinions.

The average US racist maybe isn't a white supremacist in practice,as in they dont go to KKK/charlottsville rallies but they do believe in most of the principles of white supremacy.


No, they don't. Latent/casual racism is widespread. White supremacist ideology is not.

This is not to minimize the very real problems with Trump and co. But white supremacy is a very specific ideological strain. Joe baby boomer GOP voter that marinates in FNC BS very likely holds some views we might label as racist. It's a big leap from racist thinking to believing in state sponsored racial discrimination and/or ethnic cleansing of sovereign territory. The latter parts are *necessary* components of white supremacist ideology, and not wanting black people in your country club or neighborhood don't meet the threshold. Nor, more commonly, does buying into racist stereotypes, etc.

Those folks are guilty of a lot of things (ignorance chief among them), but let's not start acting like they are hidden members of the NSDAP. They ignore signs of systemic racism, are ambivalent about how historical circumstances have shaped community circumstances, tend to be xenophobic and jingoist, etc.

And before we go too far in thinking Trump is a growth industry for these groups. He certainly has given them cover to come out in the open, but the resulting push back has been intense and the GOP is facing an election year where they may get devastated ... in part due to the fact that Trump is a historically unpopular president.


State sponsored racial discrimination, like a travel ban on brown people or building a wall to keep out mexicans? Trump's base jizzes their pants over ideas like those. It's more than just average racism, it's pure hatred of anyone who doesn't look like them. Recent incidents like these(below) originate from more than just racism. We can split hairs over the definition of white supremacy in 2018 vs 1939 but the bottom line is there is a real problem in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Olat ... s_shooting , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Port ... ain_attack


and Chaos, Austria isn't immune to this kind of crap recently either(and neither is Canada) : http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 47371.html . People wishing a baby would die of crib death just because it happens to be muslim/brown.

Hopefully Jester is right and the blow back from Trump and co will cause a major shift back towards the left globally


You just cited two examples that target non-citizens. Some racism/bigotry involved there? Sure. But hardline immigration policy ... populism and protectionism/isolationism are not new and not white supremacism. In fact, there is little shocking about the appeal of such policies during and following periods of economic insecurity. You are conflating ideologies/policies that have some overlap, but are far from one and the same.

And the issue is not whether racism, white supremacists, etc. exist and are a problem. They very obviously are. The point is that we do not need to get hyperbolic about the breadth of white supremacism's appeal. Nor do we need to make villains of median GOP voters.

I would also strongly caution against using anecdotal evidence and isolated events to make sweeping arguments. Violent incidents are noisy news events. But just as jihadists don't define Islam, white supremacists don't define rural, conservative whites or however you want to frame that group.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6152 by CantSeeColors » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:45 pm

This is the dumbest argument I've ever read
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6153 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:33 pm

I refuse to read it CsC
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6154 by jester » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:51 am

CantSeeColors wrote:This is the dumbest argument I've ever read


Perhaps, but I also think it gets at the underlying reason for political polarization in the country right now and so much of our political discourse--i.e., the ease with which opposing views are characterized as either intentionally malevolent or made in bad faith. Bush was a bogeyman of the left ... Obama a bogeyman of the right ... then we get to Trump, and the bogeyman is anyone that would vote for him on the left.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6155 by GoneFullHextall » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:07 am

jester wrote:
GoneFullHextall wrote:yep. I work with folks like that and of course they deny they are racists even tho they have no issue dropping racist language when given the chance.
speaking of racist scum, it was good to see Jack Tapper not put up with Steve Millers bullshit the other night. good for him. people like Miller need to go back under that slime filled rock underbelly and stay there.


New England has a long and ugly racist history that not too many are aware of nationally. Boston, in particular.


well I do think that sadly it is everywhere in this country. some places are worse than others. I see it at work, but I don't think we are as bad here in New Hampshire as it is down in southern New England. The racism in Boston is well documented. Especially with the Boston teams. Red Auerbach aside.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6156 by chaosof99 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:49 am

@Hovercraft: I never said that austria was immune to this. In fact, this whole argument started when Kilgore stated that austrians were more aware of the wrongdoing of the political right because we have "bona fide nazis" to which I corrected him that the U.S. also has "bona fide nazis".

@jester: The difference is that the right is working exclusively off of turning people into boogeymen. They are inventing reasons to hate the left out of whole cloth. Look at the Obama administration. They were tying a knot for Obama over freaking dijon mustard and not wearing a flag-lapel-pin. They invented bullshit death panels to make the ACA a toxic issue.

Meanwhile the left is actually condemning actual policy decisions which are going to have horrendous consequences, such as the horrendous tax bill, the repeal of the ACA which they basically accomplished with the repeal of the individual mandate in that tax bill, the repeal of net neutrality, the racist travel ban, the idiotic wall. And that is in addition to a nutcase of a president who last week had a fucking dick measuring contest with a hostile nation on twitter over who had the bigger capability of starting a NUCLEAR WAR!

The problem here is at the root of the Republican party. They have no intention of governing in a meaningful or proper manner that benefits the countries citizens. They seemingly only govern from two principles: Policies that benefit themselves and their sponsors, and policies that hurt the Democratic Party and its constituents. And to this end the Republican Party will stoop to every low, including ignoring horrendous transgressions within its own party, such as Trumps collusion with the Russian government, or allowing the inclusion of white supremacists in its governments (i.e. Bannon, Gorka, Sessions, Stephen Miller).

Yes, this does make the republicans seem like cartoon villains, but that is what is actually happening and to an outside observer it is plain to see. That's why the whole fucking world is completely aghast about what is currently happening in the United States.

And the average republican voter is fully complicit in this. They have been drilled for years via talk radio and FOX News that liberals are "whiny babies" or whatever and that if liberals are complaining you are doing a good thing. The republican party has deliberately cultivated a political divide for decades now to both give itself a voter base and work as a distraction and justification for their horrendous policies that do not benefit its voter base but just themselves. This however doesn't absolve the average republican, because they at some point bought into this and then submerged themselves in the republican propganda network.

To make things short: Please fuck off with your "both sides" bullshit, because it is obvious that "both sides" are definitely not equally to blame.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6157 by jester » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:07 am

chaosof99 wrote:@Hovercraft: I never said that austria was immune to this. In fact, this whole argument started when Kilgore stated that austrians were more aware of the wrongdoing of the political right because we have "bona fide nazis" to which I corrected him that the U.S. also has "bona fide nazis".

@jester: The difference is that the right is working exclusively off of turning people into boogeymen. They are inventing reasons to hate the left out of whole cloth. Look at the Obama administration. They were tying a knot for Obama over freaking dijon mustard and not wearing a flag-lapel-pin. They invented bullshit death panels to make the ACA a toxic issue.

Meanwhile the left is actually condemning actual policy decisions which are going to have horrendous consequences, such as the horrendous tax bill, the repeal of the ACA which they basically accomplished with the repeal of the individual mandate in that tax bill, the repeal of net neutrality, the racist travel ban, the idiotic wall. And that is in addition to a nutcase of a president who last week had a fucking dick measuring contest with a hostile nation on twitter over who had the bigger capability of starting a NUCLEAR WAR!

The problem here is at the root of the Republican party. They have no intention of governing in a meaningful or proper manner that benefits the countries citizens. They seemingly only govern from two principles: Policies that benefit themselves and their sponsors, and policies that hurt the Democratic Party and its constituents. And to this end the Republican Party will stoop to every low, including ignoring horrendous transgressions within its own party, such as Trumps collusion with the Russian government, or allowing the inclusion of white supremacists in its governments (i.e. Bannon, Gorka, Sessions, Stephen Miller).

Yes, this does make the republicans seem like cartoon villains, but that is what is actually happening and to an outside observer it is plain to see. That's why the whole fucking world is completely aghast about what is currently happening in the United States.

And the average republican voter is fully complicit in this. They have been drilled for years via talk radio and FOX News that liberals are "whiny babies" or whatever and that if liberals are complaining you are doing a good thing. The republican party has deliberately cultivated a political divide for decades now to both give itself a voter base and work as a distraction and justification for their horrendous policies that do not benefit its voter base but just themselves. This however doesn't absolve the average republican, because they at some point bought into this and then submerged themselves in the republican propganda network.

To make things short: Please fuck off with your "both sides" bullshit, because it is obvious that "both sides" are definitely not equally to blame.


Did you glean this from all your time spent in the US, chaos?

The GOP has a lot to answer for, and the toxicity inherent to the GOP today long predates FNC and talk radio. It owes as much (if not more), to Nixon's southern strategy. Importantly, those media entities chase viewers and listeners as much if not more than they define viewers. There is good research on confirmation bias and folks seeking media that confirms prior beliefs. Of the many a problems with the current media landscape, one of the most important is that people avoid media that challenges their views. That is very much a both sides problem.

The GOP is a shit party, that believes and does a lot of shit things. We don't need to paint the average GOP (who, btw, is a low information voters that *does not* marinate in FNC/talk radio) as a Nazi to make those points. It's dumb and reductionist.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6158 by jester » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:24 am

GoneFullHextall wrote:
jester wrote:
GoneFullHextall wrote:yep. I work with folks like that and of course they deny they are racists even tho they have no issue dropping racist language when given the chance.
speaking of racist scum, it was good to see Jack Tapper not put up with Steve Millers bullshit the other night. good for him. people like Miller need to go back under that slime filled rock underbelly and stay there.


New England has a long and ugly racist history that not too many are aware of nationally. Boston, in particular.


well I do think that sadly it is everywhere in this country. some places are worse than others. I see it at work, but I don't think we are as bad here in New Hampshire as it is down in southern New England. The racism in Boston is well documented. Especially with the Boston teams. Red Auerbach aside.


Oh, it has always been everywhere. New England was somewhat unique historically for its homogeneity, though ... and that plays an important role. Obviously, you will see it more in a pop center like Boston with post-Civil War demographic movements. But it is not surprising that there was/is strong attitudes towards "others" there.

To an extent, you could argue a similar dynamic is playing out in Europe right now. Following WWII, there was a lot of forced migration that made countries much more culturally homogeneous. This on top of the Holocaust. So, now these countries are having to adjust to immigration, and that is a particularly nettlesome topic in countries with large social welfare programs (people are cool with money going to their group, less cool with it going to others).

Incidentally, the multicultural makeup of US society is one of a few reasons social welfare programs are such hot button issues.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6159 by chaosof99 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:27 am

I never painted the average GOP voter a Nazi. Not every german in the 1930s and 40s was a Nazi either. However, just like in the 1930s in germany they will stand idly by while Nazis take over because the Nazis are somewhat closer to their political perspective than a liberal or progressive, and of course they think every liberal trying to warn them of the dangerous people sitting in their shadow is hysterical and trying to score political points.

Sorry, but when you have fucking Nazis marching in your streets and running people they don't like down with cars, and have the ear of the most powerful man on the planet, sentiments a la "oh, they don't have any real power yet" or "we don't have any *real* Nazis here" ring rather hollow. They are on the cusp of having real power and are continuously revealing themselves as real Nazis. Why would you wait any longer to do something about them?
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6160 by jester » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:06 am

chaosof99 wrote:I never painted the average GOP voter a Nazi. Not every german in the 1930s and 40s was a Nazi either. However, just like in the 1930s in germany they will stand idly by while Nazis take over because the Nazis are somewhat closer to their political perspective than a liberal or progressive, and of course they think every liberal trying to warn them of the dangerous people sitting in their shadow is hysterical and trying to score political points.

Sorry, but when you have fucking Nazis marching in your streets and running people they don't like down with cars, and have the ear of the most powerful man on the planet, sentiments a la "oh, they don't have any real power yet" or "we don't have any *real* Nazis here" ring rather hollow. They are on the cusp of having real power and are continuously revealing themselves as real Nazis. Why would you wait any longer to do something about them?


This is a false comparison. The NSDAP operated in a Parliamentary system, and while it is true that they never won a majority ... they were getting into the high 20s and low 30s in elections prior to joining a coalition govt. If you think the alt-right, etc. could draw that kind of support, you're out of your mind.

Again, we can acknowledge and address problems without hysterics and hyperbole.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6161 by chaosof99 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:01 pm

And I'm telling you when you have a president who hands out government positions to bona fide white supremacists and who calls literal Nazis "some fine people" it's not hyperbole or hysteria anymore. It's fucking reality!

And please tell me how you are "acknowledging" and "addressing" the problem when you roll out statements like this:

Chaos ... these people are a miniscule but noisy minority. This isn't the Weimar Republic of the 1920s. And we will always have ants. That's the price of a free and open heterogeneous society.


Also, I don't have to be out of my mind to imagine for the alt-right gaining "that kind of support". Last month there was an election in Alabama where a literal christian theocrat, who was twice kicked out of a position on the supreme court of that state for putting his personal faith above the law of the land, who actually argues that the people are having too many rights (including voting rights for black people and the right of homosexuals to not be persecuted by the government), and who had been credibly alleged of pursuing sex with minors by numerous women, was almost elected to the Senate simply because he had a fucking R next to his name on the ballot.

And if your response is "that's just Alabama", you are completely missing the point.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6162 by GoneFullHextall » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:47 pm

in the deep south in the middle of bible country, the bible and God comes first. they will ignore everything else. Just get on a pulpit and give them what they want to hear and they will ignore all prior misgivings. I mean hell I read somewhere that one of Moore's followers said "its in the bible so it must be ok" and others just shook their head and said yup. no worries here.
It is a fucked up. ignorance and bigotry will never go away. it is a way of life in the south. It is not just minorities.
there is an article on yahoo today(I think taken from the Huffington post), about a woman in Louisiana who questioned a school board decision about the school board not giving raises to the teachers but giving themselves raises. She refused to leave and was hauled away in handcuffs. simply by asking a question. Of course there are also some parishes in that state who still don't allow women in meetings when decisions need to be made regarding schools and other things. its the 21st century and these things still happen. mostly unchecked.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6163 by Hovercraft » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:00 pm

It's a big leap from racist thinking to believing in state sponsored racial discrimination and/or ethnic cleansing of sovereign territory


Now Joe Arpaio is running for senate in Arizona. Someone who was convicted by the Justice Department of essentially state sponsored racism.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6164 by jester » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:46 pm

Hovercraft wrote:
It's a big leap from racist thinking to believing in state sponsored racial discrimination and/or ethnic cleansing of sovereign territory


Now Joe Arpaio is running for senate in Arizona. Someone who was convicted by the Justice Department of essentially state sponsored racism.


And David Duke ran before him ... I think there is very little chance Arpaio can win that primary, let alone the Senate seat.

There are bad people in the world.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6165 by jester » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:53 pm

chaosof99 wrote:And I'm telling you when you have a president who hands out government positions to bona fide white supremacists and who calls literal Nazis "some fine people" it's not hyperbole or hysteria anymore. It's fucking reality!

And please tell me how you are "acknowledging" and "addressing" the problem when you roll out statements like this:

Chaos ... these people are a miniscule but noisy minority. This isn't the Weimar Republic of the 1920s. And we will always have ants. That's the price of a free and open heterogeneous society.


Also, I don't have to be out of my mind to imagine for the alt-right gaining "that kind of support". Last month there was an election in Alabama where a literal christian theocrat, who was twice kicked out of a position on the supreme court of that state for putting his personal faith above the law of the land, who actually argues that the people are having too many rights (including voting rights for black people and the right of homosexuals to not be persecuted by the government), and who had been credibly alleged of pursuing sex with minors by numerous women, was almost elected to the Senate simply because he had a fucking R next to his name on the ballot.

And if your response is "that's just Alabama", you are completely missing the point.


Yeah, chaos, I follow politics very closely and live here. You could have saved your breath ... and this post is hysterics. Trump is a historically unpopular and thus far incredibly ineffective president. His party is on the verge of electoral catastrophe, and we have another GOP retirement today.

Take a deep breath. The Man in the High Castle is an Amazon program, not a documentary.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6166 by jester » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:58 pm

GoneFullHextall wrote:in the deep south in the middle of bible country, the bible and God comes first. they will ignore everything else. Just get on a pulpit and give them what they want to hear and they will ignore all prior misgivings. I mean hell I read somewhere that one of Moore's followers said "its in the bible so it must be ok" and others just shook their head and said yup. no worries here.
It is a fucked up. ignorance and bigotry will never go away. it is a way of life in the south. It is not just minorities.
there is an article on yahoo today(I think taken from the Huffington post), about a woman in Louisiana who questioned a school board decision about the school board not giving raises to the teachers but giving themselves raises. She refused to leave and was hauled away in handcuffs. simply by asking a question. Of course there are also some parishes in that state who still don't allow women in meetings when decisions need to be made regarding schools and other things. its the 21st century and these things still happen. mostly unchecked.


The importance of partisanship, etc. cannot be overstated. Evidence suggest that voters lock in party ID and voting lean very young. So, baby boomers became GOP voters at a time when the Dem party was at the end of the New Deal phase of it's existence along with Vietnam. A similar Dem swing is already set up with voters under the age of 40 that came of age under Clinton, reacted to Bush, and then Obama. GOP hardens that generational divide with their social/cultural conservatism. One of the reasons a Trump or Moore can get elected is simply because people don't actually have flexible voting patterns.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6167 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:57 pm

His Satanic Majestic Request
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6168 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:51 pm

Did he tweet about it yet?
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6169 by DeadPhish » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:07 am

The least racist guy ever.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6170 by GoneFullHextall » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:31 pm

DeadPhish wrote:The least racist guy ever.


he says the best and greatest words ever. his speeches are the best and greatest ever. as trump. he will tell you. :wink:

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