News from Around the NHL 2

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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4651 by jester » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:37 pm

Hovercraft wrote:I feel like the NHL needs to suspend him here for at least a game just to say they did. Slashing is becoming a huge problem and is rarely called unless a stick breaks which is backwards. Stick checks should be legal, slashes to the hands should not be.


I get the idea behind that rule -- to try and limit the force of stick checks. But it doesn't work in practice. Similar to the knock the guys stick out of his hand ...
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4652 by Kilgore Trout » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:48 pm

Looked like a pretty innocuous slash to end up fucking up his finger that bad through his glove.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4653 by FlyHigh » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:41 pm

dbr wrote:I'll avoid pictures with Methot's finger in it, thanks for the heads up.

Another topic that continues to arise in the media is the Olympics. If this results in another work stoppage, I am serisouly reevaluating my fandom.

I don't think any league shits on its fans with as much consistency as the NHL. Bettman has said that participation cost would be "in excess of $10 million." Call it $15 mill. The NHL's revenues are right around $4 billion annually, averaging operating income per club is over $4 million annually, but apparently they just can't come up with a $15 mill cost once every 4 years.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4654 by DeadPhish » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:41 pm

dbr wrote:I'll avoid pictures with Methot's finger in it, thanks for the heads up.

Another topic that continues to arise in the media is the Olympics. If this results in another work stoppage, I am serisouly reevaluating my fandom.


I get what why the owners don't want to participate. But the fans and players want it. I'd be upset if they didn't, and I don't think it would be as exciting to watch.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4655 by Hovercraft » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:53 pm

If the NHL doesn't go, can the AHL? or would it be Euro leagues and NCAA players?
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4656 by jester » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:00 pm

I wish they could fully develop the World Cup -- and not the gimmicky version they just did. That's one thing that football/soccer very much has right with FIFA running the premier international men's tournament and the Olympics being a side affair. I don't like breaking up the season, and I don't like the risk of injuries in the middle of the season.

Hovercraft wrote:If the NHL doesn't go, can the AHL? or would it be Euro leagues and NCAA players?


Yeah, I suspect if the NHL did not go you would see an odd collection of AHL, NCAA, etc. players.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4657 by FlyHigh » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:28 pm

jester wrote:I wish they could fully develop the World Cup -- and not the gimmicky version they just did. That's one thing that football/soccer very much has right with FIFA running the premier international men's tournament and the Olympics being a side affair. I don't like breaking up the season, and I don't like the risk of injuries in the middle of the season.

Hovercraft wrote:If the NHL doesn't go, can the AHL? or would it be Euro leagues and NCAA players?


Yeah, I suspect if the NHL did not go you would see an odd collection of AHL, NCAA, etc. players.


I'm not sure how much this problem is solved with a Sept. tournament. The big Olympic injury everyone complained about was Tavares. That was a torn MCL and torn meniscus, aka months and months out of the lineup. He missed 20 NHL games. If that injury happens in Sept, he misses the vast majority of the season; possibly all of it.

Obviously that doesn't account for a guy like Crosby getting hurt at the Olympics and tanking a potential playoff run, but ultimately, if you're going to have out-of-league tournaments, injuries that have a significant impact on the league are always a possibility.

I also think that the NHL let the genie out of the bottle by letting NHLers into the Olympics. It would be borderline impossible now to put together a World Cup-style tourney that actually had any meaning because everyone would rather do the Olympics.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4658 by jester » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:46 pm

Remember Hasek?
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4659 by FlyHigh » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:00 pm

Yes, and if that injury happens in Sept he misses 3-4 months of the regular season, who knows what kind of position the Sens are in then?

The points are that (i) there is no perfect fix to the injury problem if you're going to hold out-of-season tournaments, (ii) the players and fans want NHLers in the Olympics, and (iii) nobody cares or is likely to care about the World Cup of Hockey.

Aside from the history of the World Cup in soccer that makes in the sport's most important tournament, it's important to note that it's held at the end of the season (after a month-long training camp for teams) rather than during preseason, so it's something that fans talk about all year and look forward to and you also get players in peak condition rather than guys just knocking off the rust after being on the beach for 3-4 months.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4660 by jester » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:00 pm

World Cup schedule significantly reduces the possibility that an injury will directly impact the postseason. Also, it allows teams to make moves to cover for injuries with greater flexibility. Perfect? No. But the Olympics are in a particularly bad time for teams.

It's worth emphasizing that World Cup versus Olympics (for soccer and hockey) is an entirely arbitrary choice. There's more history surrounding the Olympics in Europe for hockey, but a great deal more to the World Cup format in NA if you look back to it's predecessor.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4661 by CantSeeColors » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:07 pm

This is a pretty bad comparison though. Soccer takes breaks all through the season for international play. They're literally on one right now with two months left in the club seasons. Top players could get hurt at any time playing for their country. Players just have more individual power in soccer culture than in hockey culture
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4662 by jester » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:44 am

CantSeeColors wrote:This is a pretty bad comparison though. Soccer takes breaks all through the season for international play. They're literally on one right now with two months left in the club seasons. Top players could get hurt at any time playing for their country. Players just have more individual power in soccer culture than in hockey culture


Eh, I think it has more to do with overall sport culture in Europe than "soccer culture." For whatever reason, there's a lot more emphasis/attachment to national team competition than we tend to have over here. For example, European hockey culture is far more attached to international competition than we have been here traditionally.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4663 by FlyHigh » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:01 am

jester wrote:World Cup schedule significantly reduces the possibility that an injury will directly impact the postseason. Also, it allows teams to make moves to cover for injuries with greater flexibility. Perfect? No. But the Olympics are in a particularly bad time for teams.

It's worth emphasizing that World Cup versus Olympics (for soccer and hockey) is an entirely arbitrary choice. There's more history surrounding the Olympics in Europe for hockey, but a great deal more to the World Cup format in NA if you look back to it's predecessor.


The point is that the injury risk is always there. And honestly, you mentioned Hasek, considering the Isles were nowhere near the POs when Tavares got hurt, I'm sure they're happier that injury happened in Feb rather than Sept. A Sept injury might have a dramatic impact on a team's ability just to get into the postseason.

Also, how do teams have greater flexibility in Sept? NHL GMs aren't typically making big trades that time of year. If Voracek goes down on Sept 22 it's not like the Flyers can just walk out and find a replacement. At least in Feb you have the deadline shortly afterwards.

I'm not sure where you are going on your 2nd point. Sure, in a vacuum it's a completely arbitrary choice. But in real life, fans and players place dramatically more weight on the Olympics in hockey and the World Cup in soccer and I don't think you can just magically make that change.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4664 by jester » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:46 am

If the NHL and IIHF committed to a non-gimmicky international tournament on a regular schedule with the best players in the world, it would become the preeminent event.

And how is it not easier to find roster fixes with 82 games before the playoffs. Hasek's injury was devastating. First 20 games are largely extended preseason.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4665 by FlyHigh » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:14 am

jester wrote:If the NHL and IIHF committed to a non-gimmicky international tournament on a regular schedule with the best players in the world, it would become the preeminent event.

And how is it not easier to find roster fixes with 82 games before the playoffs. Hasek's injury was devastating. First 20 games are largely extended preseason.


How do you create this tournament? It happens in Sept when it's 75 degrees outside and nobody (not even the diehards) is that invested in hockey? I'm sure that Team USA has fond memories of beating Canada in 1996. I'm equally sure that nobody else at the time cared.

Flyers are a mediocre team that's had very poor goaltending the entire year. Where's the "roster fix"? Where was Ottawa's "roster fix" when Karlsson tore his Achilles a third of the way into 12-13? If you lose a marquee player from your roster, there's no "fix" for that. When you have a big flaw, whether it's created by poor play or injuries, you can't just magic it away because it's there in October rather than February.

Friedman has a stat that since the lockout, 48 teams have been 4 points or more out of a playoff spot on Nov. 1. Of those 48, 6 have recovered to make it in. You can call those early games "extended preseason", but those points matter just as much. I mean, the games we're playing now actually matter to about 10 teams in the league.

This also kind of obfuscating the point that this is something that both the fans and players really want. Considering that fans have stuck with the NHL through 3 lockouts in the past 20 years and numerous other screw ups, one could be forgiven for hoping that the NHL would throw them a bone. More fool us.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4666 by jester » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:40 pm

How do you create a tournament? Same way you create an Olympic tournament ... World Cup tournament ... Beer pong tournament ... That part isn't hard, you just need to want to do it and invest in it.

Hypothetical for you FlyHigh: a few years from now, the Flyers are a legit cup contender and Provorov is a Norris caliber rock for the team. You can have Olympic involvement, where he will sustain a major injury ... or the first Cup of our lifetime.

I choose the Cup, and I don't even need to think about it. I've invested way more time, energy, and money in the Flyers than I ever will in the national team.

I'm one fan who doesn't give a shit about the Olympics. It's usually a bunch of crappy one-sided games with a few competitive matchups sprinkled in before the medal round, with teams that have little chemistry due to lack of familiarity. From a fans' perspective, Olympic hockey is vastly overrated. It would be just as fun (if not more) to see a true amateur tournament or a 23 and under tournament ... kind of an extension of the WJC.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4667 by FlyHigh » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:41 pm

Oh, so like the World Cup this past year when everyone was very invested and fans literally couldn't get enough? Or wait, less "gimmicky." If you are going to complain about the Olympics, propose a better alternative rather than just offering an "if you build it they will come" vision and calling it a day. Planning these things is hard. Here's an opening question: Why would NHLers show up to your tournament and play hard when they're angry at the league for denying Olympic participation?

Your hypothetical is a straw man that's essentially offering someone the choice between getting kicked in the balls or winning the Powerball. The proper way to phrase that is whether I'd be willing to trade NHL participation in the Olympics for the relatively miniscule chance that the Flyers are a contending team and have a key player get hurt for at least 2 months. And yes, I am willing to make that trade-off. In any case, it's significantly more likely that any Olympic injury would help the Flyers rather than hurt them.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4668 by Kilgore Trout » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:56 pm

I don't care for international competitions generally. I'd rather watch my pro teams and not worry that players we're paying millions of dollars are off getting hurt in games I'm not invested in.

Maybe I'm just salty that it's a weekend where I have time and club soccer is taking a break for WC qualifying.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4669 by FlyHigh » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:03 pm

Which is totally defensible IMO. My issue is that the NHL wants to have a tournament it can try to monetize more effectively and is willing to disregard the wishes of fans and players to do that.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4670 by Rogers Pancreas » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:28 pm

There are two international tournaments worth watching (the Olympics and the WJC), and the NHL's product is decidedly behind both in terms of entertainment value. So, fuck Gary and the owners.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4671 by jester » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:06 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Oh, so like the World Cup this past year when everyone was very invested and fans literally couldn't get enough? Or wait, less "gimmicky." If you are going to complain about the Olympics, propose a better alternative rather than just offering an "if you build it they will come" vision and calling it a day. Planning these things is hard. Here's an opening question: Why would NHLers show up to your tournament and play hard when they're angry at the league for denying Olympic participation?

Your hypothetical is a straw man that's essentially offering someone the choice between getting kicked in the balls or winning the Powerball. The proper way to phrase that is whether I'd be willing to trade NHL participation in the Olympics for the relatively miniscule chance that the Flyers are a contending team and have a key player get hurt for at least 2 months. And yes, I am willing to make that trade-off. In any case, it's significantly more likely that any Olympic injury would help the Flyers rather than hurt them.


The hypothetical is the scenario you need to be comfortable with if your going to hop and skip into the Olympics as if there are no legit reasons not to go. Your miles will vary. I'd rather watch the NHL and Olympic Curling.

Yes, planning these things is hard. That's why the IOC and FIFA are horrible institutions increasingly forced to do business with autocratic regimes as opposed to liberal democracies. It isn't impossible, however, if interested parties put aside selfish interests.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4672 by jester » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:10 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Which is totally defensible IMO. My issue is that the NHL wants to have a tournament it can try to monetize more effectively and is willing to disregard the wishes of fans and players to do that.


Indeed, the NHL/NHLPA approach to the WC is a joke. The ideal solution is a true international tournament where the IIHF and various professional leagues create a tournament with equal stakes independent of the IOC, which is what FIFA operates.

That tournament does not exist, but it isn't because it's impossible to create. All the top end countries house the facilities to hold such a tournament (with varying degrees of economic return).
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4673 by CantSeeColors » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:25 pm

You can't "create" those stakes, though. The Olympics have a history and you can't just manufacture that for some other tournament
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4674 by chaosof99 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:33 am

Elias has retired.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4675 by DeadPhish » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:55 am

TIL Patrick Elias wasn't already retired.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4676 by jester » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:39 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:You can't "create" those stakes, though. The Olympics have a history and you can't just manufacture that for some other tournament


Just seeing this now.

All history starts somewhere. In the 50s/60s, the NFL was not a big deal, and the eventual SB far from a culturally iconic event in American sports. ... in 20 years it became the single most important sports date on the calendar.

The idea that the Olympics are some sacred event is just that, an idea. It's sanctity can be easily punctured and surpassed with an honest and collective effort at putting forward a competing tournament with the best players in the world.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4677 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:35 pm

Yeah, like the World Cup of Hockey of 1996, who can forget that historic event?

Dominik Hasek in 1998? Canada-USA in 2002? Canada winning a gold medal in OT on home ice? All small potatoes compared to that 1996 World Cup. Don't even get me started on the 1991 Canada Cup.

More seriously, you are forgetting or ignoring that best-on-best tourneys have been tried before and failed miserably. The only time people cared was when the USSR was involved because the games became a proxy fight.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4678 by GoneFullHextall » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:39 pm

just glad I got to see one of those World Cup games live even if was a pre tourney game. Saw USA beat the Slovaks 8-2 in Providence.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4679 by jester » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:38 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Yeah, like the World Cup of Hockey of 1996, who can forget that historic event?

Dominik Hasek in 1998? Canada-USA in 2002? Canada winning a gold medal in OT on home ice? All small potatoes compared to that 1996 World Cup. Don't even get me started on the 1991 Canada Cup.

More seriously, you are forgetting or ignoring that best-on-best tourneys have been tried before and failed miserably. The only time people cared was when the USSR was involved because the games became a proxy fight.


I don't know how old you were in 1996, but that World Cup a) was a lot of fun; and b) got a lot of national TV exposure (no small thing). It helped that the US/Canada games were fucking great.

The problem with the World Cup has always been the NHLs inconsistent and selfish relationship with it.

But, yeah, it definitely makes a huge difference if the games are preceded and followed by figure skating and luge ...

Want them in the Olympics instead of an independent IIHF tournament? That's fine. But the notion that the Olympics possess some special sauce that only they can bottle is a fiction. The IIHF just has lacked the power and international buy in (from North America) to create a competitive alternative.

The IOC does not hold a monopoly​ on international competition. And thank God, because it is a piece of shit entity. What I'm proposing is that the NHL, IIHF, and other leagues get serious about an alternative tournament. That is not impossible, and, if created and sustained, would quickly surpass the Olympics as a tournament. Now, from a biz perspective, the Olympics may bring a bit more exposure, since, ya know, people tune in to CNBC for news and stick around for the hockey game.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4680 by CantSeeColors » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:02 pm

jester wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:You can't "create" those stakes, though. The Olympics have a history and you can't just manufacture that for some other tournament


Just seeing this now.

All history starts somewhere. In the 50s/60s, the NFL was not a big deal, and the eventual SB far from a culturally iconic event in American sports. ... in 20 years it became the single most important sports date on the calendar.

That's because it wasn't trying to replace something. How'd the USFL and XFL fare at taking the spotlight away from the NFL?
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4681 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:03 pm

I was old enough in 96 to be a pretty rabid Flyers fan (still have my Legion of Doom t-shirt!) and do not remember jack about the 96 World Cup of Hockey (I do remember the Devs winning in 95 and then the Avs in 96, so I had at least some awareness of the broader hockey world). Also have very clear memories of watching hockey in the 98 Olympics and being angry at the US (1.5 years after the World Cup, so not long).

Look, you can engage in all the hypos you'd like. The fact is that nobody gave a shit about the Canada Cup (5 iterations), the World Cup of Hockey, or international hockey generally until 1998; unless the USSR was involved. Like it or not, people care about the Olympics, both hockey fans and sports fans generally.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4682 by jester » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:08 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:
jester wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:You can't "create" those stakes, though. The Olympics have a history and you can't just manufacture that for some other tournament


Just seeing this now.

All history starts somewhere. In the 50s/60s, the NFL was not a big deal, and the eventual SB far from a culturally iconic event in American sports. ... in 20 years it became the single most important sports date on the calendar.

That's because it wasn't trying to replace something. How'd the USFL and XFL fare at taking the spotlight away from the NFL?


Apples and oranges. We are not talking about competing leagues. Moreover, the NHL has leverage (money) that those leagues did not have.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4683 by jester » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:11 pm

FlyHigh wrote:I was old enough in 96 to be a pretty rabid Flyers fan (still have my Legion of Doom t-shirt!) and do not remember jack about the 96 World Cup of Hockey (I do remember the Devs winning in 95 and then the Avs in 96, so I had at least some awareness of the broader hockey world). Also have very clear memories of watching hockey in the 98 Olympics and being angry at the US (1.5 years after the World Cup, so not long).

Look, you can engage in all the hypos you'd like. The fact is that nobody gave a shit about the Canada Cup (5 iterations), the World Cup of Hockey, or international hockey generally until 1998; unless the USSR was involved. Like it or not, people care about the Olympics, both hockey fans and sports fans generally.


So, people did not care unless the best international team was in the tourney? Funny thing, that.

There's a lot of post-Olympic involvement revisionist history here. There's also this fact, which the owners are very aware of: Olympic involvement has done nothing to move the needle on the NHL brand.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4684 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:26 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:I was old enough in 96 to be a pretty rabid Flyers fan (still have my Legion of Doom t-shirt!) and do not remember jack about the 96 World Cup of Hockey (I do remember the Devs winning in 95 and then the Avs in 96, so I had at least some awareness of the broader hockey world). Also have very clear memories of watching hockey in the 98 Olympics and being angry at the US (1.5 years after the World Cup, so not long).

Look, you can engage in all the hypos you'd like. The fact is that nobody gave a shit about the Canada Cup (5 iterations), the World Cup of Hockey, or international hockey generally until 1998; unless the USSR was involved. Like it or not, people care about the Olympics, both hockey fans and sports fans generally.


So, people did not care unless the best international team was in the tourney? Funny thing, that.

There's a lot of post-Olympic involvement revisionist history here. There's also this fact, which the owners are very aware of: Olympic involvement has done nothing to move the needle on the NHL brand.


I think you missed the point or it wasn't phrased clearly enough. There are 3 things every hockey fan knows in international hockey till 1998. 1. 1972 Summit Series. 2. 1980 Olympics. 3. 1987 Canada Cup final.

Aside from all 3 of those being batshit events for various reasons (not least, the quality of play), the presence of the USSR was a dominant factor in the historical significance of each event. Any non-Olympic tournament these days can't rely on the "mysterious enemy" factor to draw interest/engagement.

Did you know the result of the 1991 Canada Cup before this debate started? Did you know that it had even happened? I bet you know each gold medal winner since 1998 and probably the silver medalists as well. That counts for something. People care about the Olympics; especially the players.

As for the NHL brand, in this particular context, I couldn't care less.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4685 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:56 pm

Hey, the fans get fucked again without having a say in what happens. Great!
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4686 by jester » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:23 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:I was old enough in 96 to be a pretty rabid Flyers fan (still have my Legion of Doom t-shirt!) and do not remember jack about the 96 World Cup of Hockey (I do remember the Devs winning in 95 and then the Avs in 96, so I had at least some awareness of the broader hockey world). Also have very clear memories of watching hockey in the 98 Olympics and being angry at the US (1.5 years after the World Cup, so not long).

Look, you can engage in all the hypos you'd like. The fact is that nobody gave a shit about the Canada Cup (5 iterations), the World Cup of Hockey, or international hockey generally until 1998; unless the USSR was involved. Like it or not, people care about the Olympics, both hockey fans and sports fans generally.


So, people did not care unless the best international team was in the tourney? Funny thing, that.

There's a lot of post-Olympic involvement revisionist history here. There's also this fact, which the owners are very aware of: Olympic involvement has done nothing to move the needle on the NHL brand.


I think you missed the point or it wasn't phrased clearly enough. There are 3 things every hockey fan knows in international hockey till 1998. 1. 1972 Summit Series. 2. 1980 Olympics. 3. 1987 Canada Cup final.

Aside from all 3 of those being batshit events for various reasons (not least, the quality of play), the presence of the USSR was a dominant factor in the historical significance of each event. Any non-Olympic tournament these days can't rely on the "mysterious enemy" factor to draw interest/engagement.

Did you know the result of the 1991 Canada Cup before this debate started? Did you know that it had even happened? I bet you know each gold medal winner since 1998 and probably the silver medalists as well. That counts for something. People care about the Olympics; especially the players.

As for the NHL brand, in this particular context, I couldn't care less.


It was more than the presence of the USSR, FlyHigh. It was the presence of the best players, which did not happen at the Olympics.

You have yet to make a compelling argument against a non-Olympic hockey tournament other than "it's hard." The NHL is not without blame for the lack of a good international tourney, but the Olympics is very far from perfect as well.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4687 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:34 pm

The entire argument is that barring extraordinary circumstances that no longer exist, nobody cares about non-Olympic international hockey tournaments. This is quite literally true. There are concrete facts that support this.

Out of curiosity, are you being deliberately obtuse or purposely ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly pointed out that nobody has cared about 4 of 5 Canada Cups and 3 World Cups of Hockey? There's no real point in having this conversation if you're just planning on ignoring facts.

The FH argument: Players and fans care deeply about Olympic hockey; which we've already seen in the reaction to the announcement today. If the NHL will allow its players to participate in an international tournament, it should be the Olympics.

The jester argument: Even though nobody has cared about a non-Olympic, best-on-best tournament since the USSR existed, despite numerous attempts, the NHL and IIHF are perfectly capable of creating a magical preseason tournament which will mean just as much as the Olympics to NHL fans and players.

OK then. I am sure that Karlsson, Ovechkin and co. are already counting down to World Cup 2020.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4688 by CantSeeColors » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:04 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:I was old enough in 96 to be a pretty rabid Flyers fan (still have my Legion of Doom t-shirt!) and do not remember jack about the 96 World Cup of Hockey (I do remember the Devs winning in 95 and then the Avs in 96, so I had at least some awareness of the broader hockey world). Also have very clear memories of watching hockey in the 98 Olympics and being angry at the US (1.5 years after the World Cup, so not long).

Look, you can engage in all the hypos you'd like. The fact is that nobody gave a shit about the Canada Cup (5 iterations), the World Cup of Hockey, or international hockey generally until 1998; unless the USSR was involved. Like it or not, people care about the Olympics, both hockey fans and sports fans generally.


So, people did not care unless the best international team was in the tourney? Funny thing, that.

There's a lot of post-Olympic involvement revisionist history here. There's also this fact, which the owners are very aware of: Olympic involvement has done nothing to move the needle on the NHL brand.


I think you missed the point or it wasn't phrased clearly enough. There are 3 things every hockey fan knows in international hockey till 1998. 1. 1972 Summit Series. 2. 1980 Olympics. 3. 1987 Canada Cup final.

Aside from all 3 of those being batshit events for various reasons (not least, the quality of play), the presence of the USSR was a dominant factor in the historical significance of each event. Any non-Olympic tournament these days can't rely on the "mysterious enemy" factor to draw interest/engagement.

Did you know the result of the 1991 Canada Cup before this debate started? Did you know that it had even happened? I bet you know each gold medal winner since 1998 and probably the silver medalists as well. That counts for something. People care about the Olympics; especially the players.

As for the NHL brand, in this particular context, I couldn't care less.

Just to throw it out there, I only know about one of these, and I bet it won't be hard to guess which one it is.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4689 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:58 pm

The 1972 Summit Series sounds like it was nuts. I only knew about Clarke breaking Kharlamov's ankle on purpose or w/e till I ran across this "Cold War on Ice" documentary a couple years back.

Worth watching for Phil Esposito alone, but thought the whole thing was riveting.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4690 by Kilgore Trout » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:09 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
So, people did not care unless the best international team was in the tourney? Funny thing, that.

There's a lot of post-Olympic involvement revisionist history here. There's also this fact, which the owners are very aware of: Olympic involvement has done nothing to move the needle on the NHL brand.


I think you missed the point or it wasn't phrased clearly enough. There are 3 things every hockey fan knows in international hockey till 1998. 1. 1972 Summit Series. 2. 1980 Olympics. 3. 1987 Canada Cup final.

Aside from all 3 of those being batshit events for various reasons (not least, the quality of play), the presence of the USSR was a dominant factor in the historical significance of each event. Any non-Olympic tournament these days can't rely on the "mysterious enemy" factor to draw interest/engagement.

Did you know the result of the 1991 Canada Cup before this debate started? Did you know that it had even happened? I bet you know each gold medal winner since 1998 and probably the silver medalists as well. That counts for something. People care about the Olympics; especially the players.

As for the NHL brand, in this particular context, I couldn't care less.

Just to throw it out there, I only know about one of these, and I bet it won't be hard to guess which one it is.


1972 Summit Series?
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4691 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:13 pm

The WJC?

And to reiterate for the umpteen millionth time, I couldn't give a single rancid shit what the NHL owners want, or what they think they're entitled to. The Olympics and the WJC are my chance to watch skilled, meaningful hockey involving the world's best-on-best talent in which I don't need to think about any of Gary's farcical bull-shit. No modified no-touch icing. No coach's challenges. No 4-on-4 to 3-on-3 to shoot-out to Rob Ray in a hot dog eating contest dressed up as a Spartan themed Chippendale dancer. No absurdly stupid All-Star Game. No hellishly boring Award show. No Ovechkin being named to the first and second All-Star Team. No John Scott taking a regular shit on the ice of the All-Star Game because he won a fucking joke of a popularity contest ran by 4chan moderators. No Las Vegas Blackwater Special Ops. For two to three weeks, the NHL just fucking dies, and I get blissfully marketed and orchestrated hockey.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4692 by FlyHigh » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:22 pm

Here's that Summit Series doc if ppl are bored at work tomorrow:


Really is an insane story, couldn't make it up.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4693 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:32 pm

And by the god damned way, if the NHL were even remotely serious about becoming a somewhat respectable league, the All-Star Team would be comprised of the top-3 FORWARDS, the top-2 DEFENSEMEN, and the top GOALTENDER. They'd murder the living FUCK out of the coach's challenge, and whoever first introduced the concept. They'd go to straight no-touch icing. They'd call the fucking penalties as they're written in the playbook (the players will learn). And, above all else, the league would treat players' safety as an actual concern, and punish players that cross the fucking line accordingly AND CONSISTENTLY instead of trying to balance out the feelings of butt-hurt GMs and public image.

And there's one more god damned thing, SORT THE FUCKING LEAGUE OUT ALREADY. We're going into next season with 31 teams, and Chris VandeVelde's still taking a fucking regular shift. Give Seattle a team already, and maybe do something radical like go to four-on-four full-time, except instead of carrying six defenders you carry eight. You expand the league into yet another market. You give the stars more skating room. And for all the white-noise surrounding tradition coming out of the NHLPA, you'll cut just 28 players around the league from where they sit today. And with the Cap at 73 million, you're talking a bigger slice of the pie going to the stars around the league that can actually play the fucking game (4.05 million versus 3.65 million per player).
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4694 by jester » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:45 am

FlyHigh wrote:The entire argument is that barring extraordinary circumstances that no longer exist, nobody cares about non-Olympic international hockey tournaments. This is quite literally true. There are concrete facts that support this.

Out of curiosity, are you being deliberately obtuse or purposely ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly pointed out that nobody has cared about 4 of 5 Canada Cups and 3 World Cups of Hockey? There's no real point in having this conversation if you're just planning on ignoring facts.

The FH argument: Players and fans care deeply about Olympic hockey; which we've already seen in the reaction to the announcement today. If the NHL will allow its players to participate in an international tournament, it should be the Olympics.

The jester argument: Even though nobody has cared about a non-Olympic, best-on-best tournament since the USSR existed, despite numerous attempts, the NHL and IIHF are perfectly capable of creating a magical preseason tournament which will mean just as much as the Olympics to NHL fans and players.

OK then. I am sure that Karlsson, Ovechkin and co. are already counting down to World Cup 2020.


Thats just it, FlyHigh, the "numerous attempts" at an international tournament have been BS, and the NHL deserves full rancor for that fact. They have been inconsistent both in occurring and in format, which means that there is little tradition built into them. Not denying that in the slightest. Much of the appeal of the Olympics stems from the fact that it operates with no meaningful competition. My argument, which is an implicit critique of the NHL, is create and commit to an actual alternative to the Olympics.

Fans may want it, but let's put aside what the players want here a bit. The NHLPA is culpable in all of this as well, and I have little sympathy for players that demand and receive massive, GUARANTEED fiscal reward to do a job. They want the best of both worlds, and sometimes you don't get everything you want.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4695 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:38 am

So basically, no facts/figures/ideas to support your thoughts outside of "they've been BS." OK then. Also, of the 8 tournaments I cited, 6 took place before the NHL began participation in the Olympics. But of course, I'm sure "those tournaments were BS."

Great. The odds of another lockout just went up significantly.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4696 by jester » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:49 am

FlyHigh wrote:So basically, no facts/figures/ideas to support your thoughts outside of "they've been BS." OK then. Also, of the 8 tournaments I cited, 6 took place before the NHL began participation in the Olympics. But of course, I'm sure "those tournaments were BS."

Great. The odds of another lockout just went up significantly.


Idea: Create an international tournament with the IIHF with equal buy in from international leagues. This would require the NHL to step down from it's high horse, and deal with the various leagues as equals. This has been stated, FlyHigh. Your rebuttal was "but that's hard." I'd take care in throwing around statements of weak arguments.

Yes, as international tournaments go, the NHL/NHLPA have NEVER committed to international play in a systemic and regular fashion. This is not to suggest that prior history was devoid of international play, but it was devoid of a single, consistently regulated, and recurring tournament between national teams. This is a fact, FlyHigh. Not conjecture. The NHLs commitment to international play has been BS, which is why they have a problem with Olympic participation in the first place.

The players are going to whine, but money talks. I very much doubt this will move the needle on a lockout. The majority of NHL players cannot fuck with their paycheck over the Olympics. Nor should they, since most of them won't participate. Should Giroux leave millions on the table just to get snubbed by Hockey Canada?
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4697 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:05 pm

Heh, your determination to ignore the existence and failures of regularly scheduled Canada Cups and World Cups is quite impressive.

Also, there is a concept in negotiation called "goodwill" that is fairly important.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4698 by jester » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:55 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Heh, your determination to ignore the existence and failures of regularly scheduled Canada Cups and World Cups is quite impressive.

Also, there is a concept in negotiation called "goodwill" that is fairly important.


... They weren't regularly scheduled (not on a specific rotation), nor were they truly international in management. Canada's Cup was owned and operated by Hockey Canada and sanctioned by IIHF/NHL. Then the WC came along, which was rather successful in '96 and and a will they or won't they limbo followed. They've held 3 World Cups in 20 years, and the last one was silly. Importantly, all of these tournaments have been North American-centric.

One of the reasons the Olympics is so appealing to the international community is that it is not heavily overrun with NHL/North American interests. And, yes, goodwill is an important piece of this, and, as said, the NHL fully deserves criticism for their approach to international play. We do not, however, need to act as if there is something uniquely special about the Olympics.

Now, if you want to get into the weeds here, the biggest problem for the IIHF is that international hockey is incredibly top heavy with talent. So, you run into the problem of having tournaments where a lot of the games won't be competitive.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4699 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:45 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:Heh, your determination to ignore the existence and failures of regularly scheduled Canada Cups and World Cups is quite impressive.

Also, there is a concept in negotiation called "goodwill" that is fairly important.


... They weren't regularly scheduled (not on a specific rotation), nor were they truly international in management. Canada's Cup was owned and operated by Hockey Canada and sanctioned by IIHF/NHL. Then the WC came along, which was rather successful in '96 and and a will they or won't they limbo followed. They've held 3 World Cups in 20 years, and the last one was silly. Importantly, all of these tournaments have been North American-centric.

One of the reasons the Olympics is so appealing to the international community is that it is not heavily overrun with NHL/North American interests. And, yes, goodwill is an important piece of this, and, as said, the NHL fully deserves criticism for their approach to international play. We do not, however, need to act as if there is something uniquely special about the Olympics.

Now, if you want to get into the weeds here, the biggest problem for the IIHF is that international hockey is incredibly top heavy with talent. So, you run into the problem of having tournaments where a lot of the games won't be competitive.


Image

The entire reason this debate is happening and the reason people are upset is because there is something uniquely special about the Olympics; for every single sport. Thus, the continued existence of the Olympics despite the IOC's best attempts to ruin them.
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Re: News from Around the NHL 2

Post #4700 by jester » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:52 pm

Is there, though? For starters, I know you're a soccer fan ... and the "uniquely special" nature of the Olympics collapses there. The NBA started sending it's players out of pure spite at the joke that Olympic basketball was ... and do people really care that much about Olympic basketball a couple decades later? Baseball? Football? Tennis? Golf?

The Olympics are uniquely special for the many sports that get zero attention outside of the Olympics. Olympic wrestling is uniquely special ... Olympic hockey/basketball/soccer is a fun tournament on the side of a much bigger pie.

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