Flyers Preseason GDT

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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #101 by jester » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:16 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:Teams worry about young platers learning bad habits and being sloppy when overwhelmed. I assume they'll stagger how they introduce all of your defensive prospects into the NHL lineup with that in mind.


Yeah, we had two rookies last year, four (maybe 5) will be on the opening night roster, and will almost certainly see 2+ more get a good number of games this year.

There are flaws with the argument that they are holding these guys back just because.


Nobody is saying that.

Literally from my post a few hours ago: "The scarier assumption, and one that I think is at least partially accurate, is that they think these guys are good and that these are smart decisions."

No need to bring straw men to the party.


If you think that's a straw man and nobody is saying it, you need to get out and see the wider Flyers social media space. More pointedly, you have been leveling a generic critique of Flyers management--i.e., that they are mishandling prospect promotion.

Literally all signals point to a basic fact: Hextall heavily values prospects and prospect development. He has repeatedly stressed a philosophy of erring on the side of being cautious. So, no, I don't think it's much of a straw man, it's an implicit feature of your overall critique.

When they feel they're ready, all signs point to them being on the roster.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #102 by Hovercraft » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm

Matt Read is on waivers.

Lindblom will be back up before Christmas, it's a non-issue. He still looks a little lost on small ice at times, and Leier is better suited for grinding 4th line/pressbox duty.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #103 by FlyHigh » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:58 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
Yeah, we had two rookies last year, four (maybe 5) will be on the opening night roster, and will almost certainly see 2+ more get a good number of games this year.

There are flaws with the argument that they are holding these guys back just because.


Nobody is saying that.

Literally from my post a few hours ago: "The scarier assumption, and one that I think is at least partially accurate, is that they think these guys are good and that these are smart decisions."

No need to bring straw men to the party.


If you think that's a straw man and nobody is saying it, you need to get out and see the wider Flyers social media space. More pointedly, you have been leveling a generic critique of Flyers management--i.e., that they are mishandling prospect promotion.

Literally all signals point to a basic fact: Hextall heavily values prospects and prospect development. He has repeatedly stressed a philosophy of erring on the side of being cautious. So, no, I don't think it's much of a straw man, it's an implicit feature of your overall critique.

When they feel they're ready, all signs point to them being on the roster.


Think I'll go ahead and pass on that one, no interest in fighting Twitter eggs.

"Mishandling prospect promotion" and "problems with internal player evals" are inextricably linked. But the argument isn't just that they are holding these guys back "because."

There's a pretty strong argument right now that guys with certain attributes ("grinders", veterans, etc.) are overvalued by the organization while guys with other attributes don't get the same credit. So while it's good that at least we've figured out the process and aren't trading picks for washed up vets and handing out big contracts on July 1, it's not a given that we're out of the woods.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #104 by jester » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:29 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:
Nobody is saying that.

Literally from my post a few hours ago: "The scarier assumption, and one that I think is at least partially accurate, is that they think these guys are good and that these are smart decisions."

No need to bring straw men to the party.


If you think that's a straw man and nobody is saying it, you need to get out and see the wider Flyers social media space. More pointedly, you have been leveling a generic critique of Flyers management--i.e., that they are mishandling prospect promotion.

Literally all signals point to a basic fact: Hextall heavily values prospects and prospect development. He has repeatedly stressed a philosophy of erring on the side of being cautious. So, no, I don't think it's much of a straw man, it's an implicit feature of your overall critique.

When they feel they're ready, all signs point to them being on the roster.


Think I'll go ahead and pass on that one, no interest in fighting Twitter eggs.

"Mishandling prospect promotion" and "problems with internal player evals" are inextricably linked. But the argument isn't just that they are holding these guys back "because."

There's a pretty strong argument right now that guys with certain attributes ("grinders", veterans, etc.) are overvalued by the organization while guys with other attributes don't get the same credit. So while it's good that at least we've figured out the process and aren't trading picks for washed up vets and handing out big contracts on July 1, it's not a given that we're out of the woods.


Recent draft trend directly contradicts the last paragraph.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #105 by Hovercraft » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:13 pm

It's not just the Flyers that have attachments to gritty grinding veterans. That's just the NHL and NHL coaching. The Goons have been pretty much phased out, and useless grinders will be next but we aren't quite there as a league yet. We should be pleased that VDV and PEB are gone. We will still have Patrick, Konecny, Weal, Leier, Laughton on the team as young "fresh" forwards and oodles of young D.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #106 by CantSeeColors » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:33 pm

Hovercraft wrote:It's not just the Flyers that have attachments to gritty grinding veterans. That's just the NHL and NHL coaching. The Goons have been pretty much phased out, and useless grinders will be next but we aren't quite there as a league yet. We should be please that VDV and PEB are gone. We will still have Patrick, Konecny, Weal, Leier, Laughton on the team as young "fresh" forwards and oodles of young D.

Here's where I fall. Getting those guys off the fourth line, which now looks to have Raffl, Laughton, and Leier on it, is a massive upgrade that outweighs the other stuff imo.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #107 by jester » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:52 pm

Hovercraft wrote:It's not just the Flyers that have attachments to gritty grinding veterans. That's just the NHL and NHL coaching. The Goons have been pretty much phased out, and useless grinders will be next but we aren't quite there as a league yet. We should be please that VDV and PEB are gone. We will still have Patrick, Konecny, Weal, Leier, Laughton on the team as young "fresh" forwards and oodles of young D.


I think there is always going to be spots for defensive grinders.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #108 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:07 pm

Well, yea, if they're good.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #109 by jester » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:17 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:Well, yea, if they're good.


But those guys are never going to pop on the analytics side of the ledger. That's where analytics and situational play run afoul of one another.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #110 by Hovercraft » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:23 pm

jester wrote:
Hovercraft wrote:It's not just the Flyers that have attachments to gritty grinding veterans. That's just the NHL and NHL coaching. The Goons have been pretty much phased out, and useless grinders will be next but we aren't quite there as a league yet. We should be please that VDV and PEB are gone. We will still have Patrick, Konecny, Weal, Leier, Laughton on the team as young "fresh" forwards and oodles of young D.


I think there is always going to be spots for defensive grinders.


Yeah I still think there will be spots for them too, especially strong defensive players but I think in general skill and speed levels are going to keep improving down the lineup. I think we could see guys like Laughton and Leier become fast grinders that can chip in a couple goals. The old school low skill types will be phased out eventually, the same with defensemen who can't skate and can't make an outlet pass.

For now we still need to have some veteran presence on a young team, even if it's that means AMac in the NHL. Otherwise Gudas is our most experienced D-man which is crazy when you think about it. Macdonald will be bought out before the end of his deal, but might as well let him be a minute muncher.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #111 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:39 pm

jester wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:Well, yea, if they're good.


But those guys are never going to pop on the analytics side of the ledger. That's where analytics and situational play run afoul of one another.

That's a hell of a non-sequitur.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #112 by jester » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:48 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:Well, yea, if they're good.


But those guys are never going to pop on the analytics side of the ledger. That's where analytics and situational play run afoul of one another.

That's a hell of a non-sequitur.


Not really, how do you define "good"? A lot of the bitching these days stems from bad analytics (e.g., Grossman).
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #113 by jester » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:01 am

Hovercraft wrote:
jester wrote:
Hovercraft wrote:It's not just the Flyers that have attachments to gritty grinding veterans. That's just the NHL and NHL coaching. The Goons have been pretty much phased out, and useless grinders will be next but we aren't quite there as a league yet. We should be please that VDV and PEB are gone. We will still have Patrick, Konecny, Weal, Leier, Laughton on the team as young "fresh" forwards and oodles of young D.


I think there is always going to be spots for defensive grinders.


Yeah I still think there will be spots for them too, especially strong defensive players but I think in general skill and speed levels are going to keep improving down the lineup. I think we could see guys like Laughton and Leier become fast grinders that can chip in a couple goals. The old school low skill types will be phased out eventually, the same with defensemen who can't skate and can't make an outlet pass.

For now we still need to have some veteran presence on a young team, even if it's that means AMac in the NHL. Otherwise Gudas is our most experienced D-man which is crazy when you think about it. Macdonald will be bought out before the end of his deal, but might as well let him be a minute muncher.


Well, speed and skill are going to constantly improve ... but you're still going to have the, comparatively speaking, grinding element. At the end of the day you need the guys that can be effective playing 10 min a night, killing penalties, etc. There are a lot of guys that will "out skill" the guys taking those jobs, but lack the commitment to the job to take on that role and do it effectively.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #114 by Rogers Pancreas » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:18 am

jester wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
But those guys are never going to pop on the analytics side of the ledger. That's where analytics and situational play run afoul of one another.

That's a hell of a non-sequitur.


Not really, how do you define "good"? A lot of the bitching these days stems from bad analytics (e.g., Grossman).

To recap:

I think there is always going to be spots for defensive grinders.


Well, yea, if they're good.


But those guys are never going to pop on the analytics side of the ledger. That's where analytics and situational play run afoul of one another.


:hellyeah:

If you're a good fourth-line player (e.g. Laperriere), teams will find a place for you. If you're not (i.e. VDV), you'll be gone before long. That is the one and only point to be made.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #115 by jester » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:24 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:If you're a good fourth-line player (e.g. Laperriere), teams will find a place for you. If you're not (i.e. VDV), you'll be gone before long. That is the one and only point to be made.


Right, but "good" is far less objective than you are making it out to be. Particularly when you get down to the "grinder" level, because at that point you can value one thing or another.

So, as said, analytics are NEVER going to like a lot of these guys that might have situational value. Grossman being a classic example.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #116 by Hovercraft » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:11 pm

Grossmann was still a pretty shitty hockey player though, by any metric or eye test. He was effective when he first came over before Malkin concussed him but there is just no place for D men who can't pass. You can be "gritty" or physical player but you still have to be able to breakout.
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Re: Flyers Preseason GDT

Post #117 by jester » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:54 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Grossmann was still a pretty shitty hockey player though, by any metric or eye test. He was effective when he first came over before Malkin concussed him but there is just no place for D men who can't pass. You can be "gritty" or physical player but you still have to be able to breakout.


The score remained the same when Grossman was on the ice. He was low event. There is tremendous value in that situationally.

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