2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

the tendon-cy to retire is natural.
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2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #1 by chaosof99 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:30 am

I guess season over and everything that happens new can only affect next season, so new thread.

Who will be protected in the expansion draft, and can we expect a coaching change? Lindry Ruff will not go back to Dallas next season. Would he be a good option to replace Hakstol?
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Post #2 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:05 am

Hak isn't getting canned.
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Post #3 by JLHockeyKnight » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:09 pm

Broads poll: Is Mason back next season?
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Post #4 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:32 pm

Hak's most definitely coming back. Mason I don't think will be, which pisses me off the more I think about his situation, Marty's, and the 2010 SCF.
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Post #5 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:59 pm

Yea RP, but the counter argument would be this team has no talent.
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Post #6 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:36 pm

???

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Post #7 by Hovercraft » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:06 pm

What other teams could use Mason? Maybe Hextall can just get him at a discount after July 1
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Post #8 by CantSeeColors » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:19 pm

Dallas, where his favorite goalie coach happens to work
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Post #9 by chaosof99 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:15 am

The Kings have fired Lombardi and Sutter. Could Sutter be potential bait for Hexy to get rid of Hakstol (seriously I just want Hakstol gone. I'm at the point where I think that Air Bud would be a better head coach).
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Post #10 by CantSeeColors » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:22 am

So how much would y'all be interested in giving Vegas to make them agree to take AMac as their expansion pick? A third round draft pick? We have two thirds and three fourths this year, so losing one or two of those picks wouldn't be too bad.
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Post #11 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:05 am

Easily a 3rd, or a 3+4. Would be open to giving our 2nd tbh, it's the term on that deal that's just so killer.
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Post #12 by Hovercraft » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:07 am

I think it would take more than a 3rd (unless Vegas really needs Salary).
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Post #13 by Rogers Pancreas » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:44 am

FlyHigh wrote:Easily a 3rd, or a 3+4. Would be open to giving our 2nd tbh, it's the term on that deal that's just so killer.
I'm not a fan of the second. I looked at all the draft picks between '95 and '05, and after the 2nd round there is no clear advantage to drafting in the 3rd versus the 5th versus. There is however an advantage to drafting in the 2nd versus the 3rd and the 1st versus the 2nd.

Also, you do not, under any circumstances, draft a goaltender in the 1st.
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Post #14 by Hovercraft » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:49 am

Would giving up someone like Laughton be too much?
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Post #15 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:33 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:Easily a 3rd, or a 3+4. Would be open to giving our 2nd tbh, it's the term on that deal that's just so killer.
I'm not a fan of the second. I looked at all the draft picks between '95 and '05, and after the 2nd round there is no clear advantage to drafting in the 3rd versus the 5th versus. There is however an advantage to drafting in the 2nd versus the 3rd and the 1st versus the 2nd.

Also, you do not, under any circumstances, draft a goaltender in the 1st.


I think that's a case though where you kind of have to look at the value comparison cause it's not like you're giving up a 2nd for nothing.

AMac has 3 more years left on his deal. I would assume that we want to start contending in that time frame considering that Giroux/Voracek/Simmonds are going to be aging by 2020. Even if you bought AMac out after next season (so in 2018), we'd be carrying a $1.875 mill cap hit for the following 4 years.

I mean, unless the goaltending completely falls apart (always a possibility), they really should be targeting 18-19 as a contention year. D should be pretty solid by then if 1-2 of Sanheim/Myers/Morin/Hagg is a top-4 and the forwards should still be decent. Who knows what will happen with contracts, but getting $5 mill of dead space off the books for 3 years (not to mention a waste of a roster spot) would be hugely beneficial and to me, possibly worth the 25-30% chance or whatever it is of drafting an NHL player in the 2nd round.
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Post #16 by CantSeeColors » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:58 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Would giving up someone like Laughton be too much?

They're probably going to take him anyway, so I'd do it.
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Post #17 by VLoo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:51 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:Dallas, where his favorite goalie coach happens to work


I mean, sure, if Dallas isn't content with paying mediocre goaltending only 10.5 mil as it stands right now and wants to add to that total. In that context, Mason makes sense to Dallas.
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Post #18 by jester » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:03 pm

I don't get why Vegas would agree to the Amac deal short of it being over the top. Assuming the team wants to get out of the deal, they're going to pay for it. If you're Vegas, take the player you want and then deal for Amac on the side.
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Post #19 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:36 pm

What happens if we send him to the Phantoms? We save like 1mil? I forget what happens I just know we don't get the whole 5mil in cap
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Post #20 by CantSeeColors » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:39 pm

VLoo wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:Dallas, where his favorite goalie coach happens to work


I mean, sure, if Dallas isn't content with paying mediocre goaltending only 10.5 mil as it stands right now and wants to add to that total. In that context, Mason makes sense to Dallas.

The Jeff Reese version of mason is miles better than the guys Dallas has been throwing out there
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Post #21 by VLoo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:41 pm

But they both still have a year left on their deals, is what I'm saying. I'm not arguing quality, you just can't invest that much cap in goaltending.
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Post #22 by CantSeeColors » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:45 am

Pretty easy to buy one out or trade one and eat some salary now that there's a year left
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Post #23 by Hovercraft » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:50 am

Konecny HypeTrain Captain wrote:What happens if we send him to the Phantoms? We save like 1mil? I forget what happens I just know we don't get the whole 5mil in cap



Yeah I think we save 950k
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Post #24 by Rogers Pancreas » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:15 am

Man, what I'd give to be in the Atlantic. That division is weak as fuck.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #25 by FlyHigh » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:12 am

Sounds like Mason went in on Hakstol/the team, guess he definitely won't be back.

Rogers Pancreas wrote:Man, what I'd give to be in the Atlantic. That division is weak as fuck.


Pretty embarrassing that the Bruins are the 6th best team in the conference and have the most favorable path to the ECF.
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Post #26 by Hovercraft » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:18 pm

Some quotes from exit interviews:

"“It’s pretty cliché but I just said I’m going to go out there and have fun. I’m going to make plays and I don’t care if I get yelled at. I’m going to play my game and make my plays. People can look at is as risky but most of the time it works out for me," Gostisbehere said."

Shot at Hak by Ghost, but I kind of agree with him that he needs to just play to his strengths. Ensuring he has a good partner would go a long way there too.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=84472


Mason:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/fly ... t_yet.html


MDZ and Schultz officially not coming back.
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Post #27 by Rogers Pancreas » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:48 pm

“It was the pressure of a contract year,” Neuvirth said. “Always speculating who’s the guy and who’s not the guy. For me, I was trying to put all those things behind me and just focus on myself. I know it was a tough season for me and there were a lot of up and downs, but I know I can be way better. ... I am going to use this year as a motivation, work harder in the summer, come back and be ready to go.”


Loved this one, myself.
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Post #28 by dbr » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:59 pm

Ghost's game is not always the safest, but that's the risk you take with players like him. I applaud him for working on his two-way game, but his strengths are his offensive capabilities.
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Post #29 by Hovercraft » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:21 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
“It was the pressure of a contract year,” Neuvirth said. “Always speculating who’s the guy and who’s not the guy. For me, I was trying to put all those things behind me and just focus on myself. I know it was a tough season for me and there were a lot of up and downs, but I know I can be way better. ... I am going to use this year as a motivation, work harder in the summer, come back and be ready to go.”


Loved this one, myself.


Mason said pretty similar anti-platooning comments.
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Post #30 by vonbonds » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:58 pm

dbr wrote:Ghost's game is not always the safest, but that's the risk you take with players like him. I applaud him for working on his two-way game, but his strengths are his offensive capabilities.

I doubt he'll ever be a very good two way player. He and the coaching staff need to have him focus on offense and pair him accordingly with your best defensive pairing for him to thrive.
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Post #31 by jester » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:00 pm

vonbonds wrote:
dbr wrote:Ghost's game is not always the safest, but that's the risk you take with players like him. I applaud him for working on his two-way game, but his strengths are his offensive capabilities.

I doubt he'll ever be a very good two way player. He and the coaching staff need to have him focus on offense and pair him accordingly with your best defensive pairing for him to thrive.


That dog just don't hunt in the modern NHL. Short of being an outlier in offensive production, D need to be able to carry some water defensively.

Now, with Ghost, it isn't all bad defensively. His primary weakness is his size, which hurts in playing down low defense. At the same time, he's pretty good at breaking up plays in the neutral zone. The key with him is going to be smart neutral zone plays, and working on his own zone.
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Post #32 by FlyHigh » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:03 pm

Think the key for Ghost (and any NHLer really) is to create more than he gives up. I think Ghost is on the ice for a lot more chances at both ends than other guys, so when his luck is bad he can look awful and when it's good he can look like a world-beater.

I found the "Ghost found his game" narrative at the end of the season to be really aggravating. By every number we have outside of goals, assists, and +/-, his game didn't change much. I personally did not notice some kind of massive sea change; certainly nothing analogous to the difference between "October/November Provorov" and "March Provorov."

What happened is that his luck started to even out and people seized on this as some kind of evidence that he'd reached another stage in his development rather than thinking about natural regression to the mean.
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Post #33 by JLHockeyKnight » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:04 pm

Hovercraft wrote:
Konecny HypeTrain Captain wrote:What happens if we send him to the Phantoms? We save like 1mil? I forget what happens I just know we don't get the whole 5mil in cap



Yeah I think we save 950k


I feel like I read that that jumps up to $1 million next season.

Edit: https://capfriendly.com/faq#buried

Next season is $1.025 million.
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Post #34 by jester » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:17 am

FlyHigh wrote:Think the key for Ghost (and any NHLer really) is to create more than he gives up. I think Ghost is on the ice for a lot more chances at both ends than other guys, so when his luck is bad he can look awful and when it's good he can look like a world-beater.

I found the "Ghost found his game" narrative at the end of the season to be really aggravating. By every number we have outside of goals, assists, and +/-, his game didn't change much. I personally did not notice some kind of massive sea change; certainly nothing analogous to the difference between "October/November Provorov" and "March Provorov."

What happened is that his luck started to even out and people seized on this as some kind of evidence that he'd reached another stage in his development rather than thinking about natural regression to the mean.


To an extent, this is true--particularly in the regular season. Where I think you run into problems if you have a notable flaw is in the playoffs, when game plans get significantly more tailored. It's tough to have a top 4 D the opposition knows they can take advantage of.

This, for example, is the real reason AMac is so problematic. Teams that make it a point to work his side due to his weakness in the neutral zone can significantly improve their zone entries. When teams are a bit more neutral towards him, his flaws don't manifest as much.

Ghost has work to do, but that's pretty normal for a D his age and experience level.
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Post #35 by vonbonds » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:38 am

jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:
dbr wrote:Ghost's game is not always the safest, but that's the risk you take with players like him. I applaud him for working on his two-way game, but his strengths are his offensive capabilities.

I doubt he'll ever be a very good two way player. He and the coaching staff need to have him focus on offense and pair him accordingly with your best defensive pairing for him to thrive.


That dog just don't hunt in the modern NHL. Short of being an outlier in offensive production, D need to be able to carry some water defensively.

Now, with Ghost, it isn't all bad defensively. His primary weakness is his size, which hurts in playing down low defense. At the same time, he's pretty good at breaking up plays in the neutral zone. The key with him is going to be smart neutral zone plays, and working on his own zone.

Aren't we saying the same thing? He'll never be a very good two way player. That doesn't mean he can't be competent in his own end. His size always gets exposed when a bigger player imposes his will upon him. If he develops his offensive game even more he'll scare teams into trying to take advantage of him constantly because of his ability to turn it around on them when that tactic doesn't work.

I'd be trying to turn him into a Coffey or Leetch type player. Neither were anything special in their own end (Paul Coffey was really bad..lol) but man alive did teams worry about them nonetheless and they gave a lot more punishment on the scoreboard than they took.
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Post #36 by FlyHigh » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:14 am

On the playoff point it's increasingly tough to say IMO. 15 years ago I definitely would have agreed. But now you see a guy like Burns logging huge minutes for the Sharks and while Burns is an unbelievably dynamic player, he's really not great in his own zone, even got worked a couple times by EDM last night and took a tripping penalty after getting turned inside out. Yet Sharks still made the Cup finals last year.

Not that Ghost is Burns, or anything close, and I do think you need those traditional solid defensive guys at some point, but I wonder if we'll start to see offensive-minded D play a bigger role in playoff seasons in the future.
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Post #37 by jester » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:13 pm

FlyHigh wrote:On the playoff point it's increasingly tough to say IMO. 15 years ago I definitely would have agreed. But now you see a guy like Burns logging huge minutes for the Sharks and while Burns is an unbelievably dynamic player, he's really not great in his own zone, even got worked a couple times by EDM last night and took a tripping penalty after getting turned inside out. Yet Sharks still made the Cup finals last year.

Not that Ghost is Burns, or anything close, and I do think you need those traditional solid defensive guys at some point, but I wonder if we'll start to see offensive-minded D play a bigger role in playoff seasons in the future.


... unless you're an outlier ...

If you can produce like Burns, you can get away with it.
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Post #38 by jester » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:17 pm

vonbonds wrote:
jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:I doubt he'll ever be a very good two way player. He and the coaching staff need to have him focus on offense and pair him accordingly with your best defensive pairing for him to thrive.


That dog just don't hunt in the modern NHL. Short of being an outlier in offensive production, D need to be able to carry some water defensively.

Now, with Ghost, it isn't all bad defensively. His primary weakness is his size, which hurts in playing down low defense. At the same time, he's pretty good at breaking up plays in the neutral zone. The key with him is going to be smart neutral zone plays, and working on his own zone.

Aren't we saying the same thing? He'll never be a very good two way player. That doesn't mean he can't be competent in his own end. His size always gets exposed when a bigger player imposes his will upon him. If he develops his offensive game even more he'll scare teams into trying to take advantage of him constantly because of his ability to turn it around on them when that tactic doesn't work.

I'd be trying to turn him into a Coffey or Leetch type player. Neither were anything special in their own end (Paul Coffey was really bad..lol) but man alive did teams worry about them nonetheless and they gave a lot more punishment on the scoreboard than they took.


Paul Coffey would not be Paul Coffey if he played the game today. The increased structure of play has made it all but impossible to play the game the way he did, and to a lesser extent Leetch. Even with forwards, the inability to play defense is a massive liability. You just can't approach these offensive D and say "let's pair him with a defensive guy!"

Now the opposite is true as well. The idea of a defensive D has grown pretty obsolete. We had Grossman here, who was very good at suppressing scoring, and his inability to generate zone exits drove everyone nuts.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #39 by vonbonds » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:23 pm

jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:
jester wrote:
That dog just don't hunt in the modern NHL. Short of being an outlier in offensive production, D need to be able to carry some water defensively.

Now, with Ghost, it isn't all bad defensively. His primary weakness is his size, which hurts in playing down low defense. At the same time, he's pretty good at breaking up plays in the neutral zone. The key with him is going to be smart neutral zone plays, and working on his own zone.

Aren't we saying the same thing? He'll never be a very good two way player. That doesn't mean he can't be competent in his own end. His size always gets exposed when a bigger player imposes his will upon him. If he develops his offensive game even more he'll scare teams into trying to take advantage of him constantly because of his ability to turn it around on them when that tactic doesn't work.

I'd be trying to turn him into a Coffey or Leetch type player. Neither were anything special in their own end (Paul Coffey was really bad..lol) but man alive did teams worry about them nonetheless and they gave a lot more punishment on the scoreboard than they took.


Paul Coffey would not be Paul Coffey if he played the game today. The increased structure of play has made it all but impossible to play the game the way he did, and to a lesser extent Leetch. Even with forwards, the inability to play defense is a massive liability. You just can't approach these offensive D and say "let's pair him with a defensive guy!"

Now the opposite is true as well. The idea of a defensive D has grown pretty obsolete. We had Grossman here, who was very good at suppressing scoring, and his inability to generate zone exits drove everyone nuts.

I just brought up offensive oriented defensemen that came to mind. That's my age showing here. He needs to focus on what he does well and lessen what he doesn't. If he's not an offensive weapon he isn't very valuable to you.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #40 by jester » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:35 pm

vonbonds wrote:
jester wrote:
vonbonds wrote:Aren't we saying the same thing? He'll never be a very good two way player. That doesn't mean he can't be competent in his own end. His size always gets exposed when a bigger player imposes his will upon him. If he develops his offensive game even more he'll scare teams into trying to take advantage of him constantly because of his ability to turn it around on them when that tactic doesn't work.

I'd be trying to turn him into a Coffey or Leetch type player. Neither were anything special in their own end (Paul Coffey was really bad..lol) but man alive did teams worry about them nonetheless and they gave a lot more punishment on the scoreboard than they took.


Paul Coffey would not be Paul Coffey if he played the game today. The increased structure of play has made it all but impossible to play the game the way he did, and to a lesser extent Leetch. Even with forwards, the inability to play defense is a massive liability. You just can't approach these offensive D and say "let's pair him with a defensive guy!"

Now the opposite is true as well. The idea of a defensive D has grown pretty obsolete. We had Grossman here, who was very good at suppressing scoring, and his inability to generate zone exits drove everyone nuts.

I just brought up offensive oriented defensemen that came to mind. That's my age showing here. He needs to focus on what he does well and lessen what he doesn't. If he's not an offensive weapon he isn't very valuable to you.


Why not strengthen what you do well, and work on what you do poorly? Particularly in defensive play, a lot of it is merely making good choices. When to pinch, jump the pass lane, etc. If you're a bit too aggressive you get caught and hang your team out to dry. A bit too passive, and you leave opportunities on the table. So, it's about learning to balance it out. The "ideal" version of Ghost is as a strong offensive D that doesn't hurt you defensively.

To put this in other terms. If you had a guy with 30 HR power, but was a .180 hitter ... would you not suggest that he work on getting his average up?
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #41 by CantSeeColors » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:35 pm

Change Coffey to Karlsson and your point holds water.

edit: that was directed to VB. Jester snuck in in front of me.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #42 by jester » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:38 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:Change Coffey to Karlsson and your point holds water.

edit: that was directed to VB. Jester snuck in in front of me.


Right, but that gets back to the outlier argument. And Coffey makes Karlsson look responsible defensively. Some of these modern D would be putting up godly numbers if you dropped them into the 80s.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #43 by Hovercraft » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:07 pm

Mullen is not returning as PP coach. Hopefully we will finally see some fresh ideas next year.

And apparently Stolarz got hurt in the phantoms last regular season game. Bad luck for him heading into the playoffs.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #44 by jester » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:36 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Mullen is not returning as PP coach. Hopefully we will finally see some fresh ideas next year.

And apparently Stolarz got hurt in the phantoms last regular season game. Bad luck for him heading into the playoffs.


IDK, this team has had a lot of success on the PP. The primary gripe has been the second unit, which is legit, but we cannot ignore the first unit in evaluating Mullen.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #45 by Hovercraft » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:56 pm

Even the first unit fell off a cliff this year. Mullen has had a lot of strong PP units over the years and good success, but he was very unwilling to adapt when PKs had us covered. I see no problem with fresh eyes and ideas coming into what we already have.

And yes the 2nd unit has been trash production wise.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #46 by jester » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:55 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Even the first unit fell off a cliff this year. MUllen has had a lot of strong PP units over the years and good success, but he was very unwilling to adapt when PKs had us covered. I see no problem with fresh eyes and ideas coming into what we already have.

And yes the 2nd unit has been trash production wise.


Eh, the PP was red hot early on, and ran into some bad luck to an extent later on in the season (team wide problem). It's also important to remember the small sample size with special teams. If we had like 6 more goals we were a top 5 unit.

2nd unit has been a problem, for sure. But personnel and opportunity is part of the story.

I'm dubious that Mullen was a problem, and that a change there will lead to improvement.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #47 by Hovercraft » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:04 pm

Hopefully Provorov, Konecny and Hagg/Sanheim will be a huge boon to the 2nd unit next year. I think we could at least consider going back to two D on unit #1 too (Provorov-Ghost) as we gave up a lot of short handed chances this year.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #48 by FlyHigh » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:55 pm

BSH has been advocating taking Couturier off the 2nd unit and giving him more minutes at ES/PK; don't hate it.

Apparently Stolarz will be in the AHL again next year, interesting. Going to have a logjam at G in another year or two looks like.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #49 by GoneFullHextall » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:34 pm

Stolarz was hurt in the recent Phantoms game and his status for the playoffs is unknown.
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Re: 2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

Post #50 by vonbonds » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:03 pm

Fuck. He's on my keeper team and I wanted him to dominate so he'd go into next season full of confidence..lol

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