2017-18 Pertinent Philadelphia Flyers News

FlyHigh · Post #501 by **FlyHigh** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:10 pm

This is a basic philosophical disagreement. I would rather fight fire with fire. If I'm going into a playoff series against a good team, I'm playing my best guys rather than relying on Grossmann (or the 2018 version of AMac) to play big minutes and hope that bounces go my way. I also don't quite see the "advanced stats are biased towards offense" argument considering that the LAK and the Bruins have been advanced stats darlings since those measurements first started to gain prominence. Just last year, the storyline was that the possession numbers overvalued those teams.

And again, the "Hagg reliability" narrative is really a "goaltenders have a .945 save percentage when Hagg is on the ice" narrative. If we're talking about flaws with stats/hockey analysis in general, I think one of the easiest things to forget is how important (1) goaltending and (2) luck are when thinking about ultimate outcomes. Crosby is a -10 at ES this year, does anybody think that's true reflection of his performance so far?

Rogers Pancreas · Post #502 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:43 pm

Sort of?

I'm sorry to take this in yet another direction, but since you asked I'm inclined to answer.

Advanced stats are a great new take on hockey, but they are far from infallible. And my personal opinion is that the stats junkies have never taken the initial step in defining exactly what is a "good" and "bad" hockey player. Once they collectively have that philosophical conversation, and a clear definition of both has been made available to everyone, then the advanced stats' community can develop a variable quantifier, and challenge said system with other statistical methods.

Right now, everyone's shooting in every direction, cherry-picking stats that suit their personal agenda with no regard to the long-term effect of their actions. And what we see happening is the credibility of advanced stats suffering among the old-guard (e.g. the NHWA). They tend to look at stuff like RelCORSI, and shrug it off because they can't understand why it's important, assuming it (among other advanced metrics) has any value at all.

So, as far as I'm concerned, total goal differential is probably the best indicator of a player's ability at that given moment, since the best way to win a game is to outscore the opposition, and Crosby's still rocking a +32 differential. He hasn't been as good as he has in the past, but he is still an asset. Robert Hagg, conversely, has been on the ice for more goals against than for, which is a problem today. Maybe he outgrows it, but it's a fucking problem. For another data point, Kimmo Timonen never had a season for the Philadelphia Flyers in which he was on the ice for more goals against than on the ice for.

Konecny HypeTrain Captain · Post #503 by **Konecny HypeTrain Captain** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:57 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:Sort of?

I'm sorry to take this in yet another direction, but since you asked I'm inclined to answer.

Advanced stats are a great new take on hockey, but they are far from infallible. And my personal opinion is that the stats junkies have never taken the initial step in defining exactly what is a "good" and "bad" hockey player. Once they collectively have that philosophical conversation, and a clear definition of both has been made available to everyone, then the advanced stats' community can develop a variable quantifier, and challenge said system with other statistical methods.

Right now, everyone's shooting in every direction, cherry-picking stats that suit their personal agenda with no regard to the long-term effect of their actions. And what we see happening is the credibility of advanced stats suffering among the old-guard (e.g. the NHWA). They tend to look at stuff like RelCORSI, and shrug it off because they can't understand why it's important, assuming it (among other advanced metrics) has any value at all.

So, as far as I'm concerned, total goal differential is probably the best indicator of a player's ability at that given moment, since the best way to win a game is to outscore the opposition, and Crosby's still rocking a +32 differential. He hasn't been as good as he has in the past, but he is still an asset. Robert Hagg, conversely, has been on the ice for more goals against than for, which is a problem today. Maybe he outgrows it, but it's a fucking problem. For another data point, Kimmo Timonen never had a season for the Philadelphia Flyers in which he was on the ice for more goals against than on the ice for.

You can't just bring a God into a conversation about hockey players though.

Hovercraft · Post #504 by **Hovercraft** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:13 am

Patrick with Voracek and Simmonds tonight. Hope it can get Patrick really going.

CantSeeColors · Post #505 by **CantSeeColors** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:12 pm

FlyHigh wrote:This is a basic philosophical disagreement. I would rather fight fire with fire. If I'm going into a playoff series against a good team, I'm playing my best guys rather than relying on Grossmann (or the 2018 version of AMac) to play big minutes and hope that bounces go my way. I also don't quite see the "advanced stats are biased towards offense" argument considering that the LAK and the Bruins have been advanced stats darlings since those measurements first started to gain prominence. Just last year, the storyline was that the possession numbers overvalued those teams.

And again, the "Hagg reliability" narrative is really a "goaltenders have a .945 save percentage when Hagg is on the ice" narrative. If we're talking about flaws with stats/hockey analysis in general, I think one of the easiest things to forget is how important (1) goaltending and (2) luck are when thinking about ultimate outcomes. Crosby is a -10 at ES this year, does anybody think that's true reflection of his performance so far?

While I generally agree with you philosophically (I've just been explaining what I think is hakstol's logic here - I've always been a fan of letting kids like sanheim make their mistakes), I think you're partially off on hagg. He does legitimately suppress the other team's offense, so it's not just luck/goaltending, he just grades out so poorly because he's adding nothing going forward right now

FlyHigh · Post #506 by **FlyHigh** » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:58 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:Sort of?

I'm sorry to take this in yet another direction, but since you asked I'm inclined to answer.

Advanced stats are a great new take on hockey, but they are far from infallible. And my personal opinion is that the stats junkies have never taken the initial step in defining exactly what is a "good" and "bad" hockey player. Once they collectively have that philosophical conversation, and a clear definition of both has been made available to everyone, then the advanced stats' community can develop a variable quantifier, and challenge said system with other statistical methods.

Right now, everyone's shooting in every direction, cherry-picking stats that suit their personal agenda with no regard to the long-term effect of their actions. And what we see happening is the credibility of advanced stats suffering among the old-guard (e.g. the NHWA). They tend to look at stuff like RelCORSI, and shrug it off because they can't understand why it's important, assuming it (among other advanced metrics) has any value at all.

So, as far as I'm concerned, total goal differential is probably the best indicator of a player's ability at that given moment, since the best way to win a game is to outscore the opposition, and Crosby's still rocking a +32 differential. He hasn't been as good as he has in the past, but he is still an asset. Robert Hagg, conversely, has been on the ice for more goals against than for, which is a problem today. Maybe he outgrows it, but it's a fucking problem. For another data point, Kimmo Timonen never had a season for the Philadelphia Flyers in which he was on the ice for more goals against than on the ice for.

This method though would fundamentally undervalue guys like Hagg/AMac/Gudas (who play PK but not PP) and overvalue Ghost (only plays PP).

The stats are indicators. In a lot of cases, they are pretty good indicators. But ultimately, you do have to obviously watch what happens. I mean, Manning had a positive Corsi last night. He was also directly responsible for 2 goals against...

CantSeeColors · Post #507 by **CantSeeColors** » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:29 am

FlyHigh wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:Sort of?

I'm sorry to take this in yet another direction, but since you asked I'm inclined to answer.

Advanced stats are a great new take on hockey, but they are far from infallible. And my personal opinion is that the stats junkies have never taken the initial step in defining exactly what is a "good" and "bad" hockey player. Once they collectively have that philosophical conversation, and a clear definition of both has been made available to everyone, then the advanced stats' community can develop a variable quantifier, and challenge said system with other statistical methods.

Right now, everyone's shooting in every direction, cherry-picking stats that suit their personal agenda with no regard to the long-term effect of their actions. And what we see happening is the credibility of advanced stats suffering among the old-guard (e.g. the NHWA). They tend to look at stuff like RelCORSI, and shrug it off because they can't understand why it's important, assuming it (among other advanced metrics) has any value at all.

So, as far as I'm concerned, total goal differential is probably the best indicator of a player's ability at that given moment, since the best way to win a game is to outscore the opposition, and Crosby's still rocking a +32 differential. He hasn't been as good as he has in the past, but he is still an asset. Robert Hagg, conversely, has been on the ice for more goals against than for, which is a problem today. Maybe he outgrows it, but it's a fucking problem. For another data point, Kimmo Timonen never had a season for the Philadelphia Flyers in which he was on the ice for more goals against than on the ice for.

This method though would fundamentally undervalue guys like Hagg/AMac/Gudas (who play PK but not PP) and overvalue Ghost (only plays PP).

The stats are indicators. In a lot of cases, they are pretty good indicators. But ultimately, you do have to obviously watch what happens. I mean, Manning had a positive Corsi last night. He was also directly responsible for 2 goals against...

Strongly agree here. I like what the stat people are trying to do with 5 on 5 xG, since it seems to me to attempt to combine the large sample size of Corsi/Fenwick-type stats with something that also accommodates the quality of the chances, but I haven't seen a good way to combine that with special teams play. So far my impression is that you kind of just have to look at your stat of choice in each situation in isolation and kind of qualitatively combine them, i.e., Player X grades out well by shot suppression on PK, but doesn't play PP and isn't great at Corsi/xG at evens, so he's probably just an ok player.

FlyHigh · Post #508 by **FlyHigh** » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:31 pm

Yeah for sure, and it's tough to tell when the stats are fooling you or aren't picking up everything that's going on. I think (not positive) that the Flyers PK has actually graded out pretty well in terms of shot suppression over the past few years, but our PK SVPCT is way below every other team's. Obviously you first look at the goalies in that situation, but considering how long the problem has been there, and some of the breakdowns we've seen this year, you wonder if there's a bit more going on.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #509 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:17 pm

With another seven points, Claude will tie John LeClair for seventh all-time leading scorer in Flyers' franchise history. And with a half-way decent close to the regular season, he may even pass Lindros to move into fifth. On the all-time assist list, he's already moved ahead of Recchi for fourth. And if my math's right, he'll only need twenty-four more assists to move ahead of Barber for third all-time. In terms of games played, he needs sixteen to move ahead of Dornhoefer for ninth all-time.

Ghost is a little funny. With four more goals, he'll move into a tie for eighth all-time among Flyers' defensemen. On the assist list, he's a ways away yet, BUT he did just manage to tie Joni in career assists as a Flyer. He's also just one point away from tying Ed Van Impe in point scored. If you want to look ahead, he could be top ten in goals, assists and points within two years. But, there's still a lot of hockey to be played between now and then.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #510 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:54 pm

Some more Giroux related news: today he was named the NHL's First Star of the Week. It doesn't mean dick in the grand scheme of things, but it's news all the same.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #511 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:07 pm

Giroux just moved ahead of LeClair on the all-time points list, for seventh overall. He's six points away from Kerr, and fifteen from Lindros in that regard.

On the assists list, he's still at number four. He's probably going to need another nineteen to get to Barber, so I wouldn't expect for him to reach that mark this season. But once he does, he should move ahead of Propp as well to settle comfortably behind Clarke.

Hovercraft · Post #512 by **Hovercraft** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:12 pm

So do we trade for a goalie? Mrazek seems to be leading the rumor mill. Lehner is hurt apparently. I think Pickard could be a cheap option too.

CantSeeColors · Post #513 by **CantSeeColors** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:09 pm

I'm surprised that there aren't more rumors about Antti Raanta, given that Arizona is out of things and he's on an expiring contract.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #514 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:30 pm

Or Jonathan Bernier.

Hovercraft · Post #515 by **Hovercraft** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:49 pm

Lindblom called up apparently! Wonder if it means a move is coming

Hovercraft · Post #516 by **Hovercraft** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:10 pm

We got Mrazek for a cond 4th 2018 and cond 3rd 2019.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #517 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:39 pm

Pretty good news all around. Looks like Stolarsz is back as well.

Konecny HypeTrain Captain · Post #518 by **Konecny HypeTrain Captain** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:07 pm

Basically a 3rd rounder potentially a 2nd if we make a playoff run and he's the starter.

Konecny HypeTrain Captain · Post #519 by **Konecny HypeTrain Captain** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:07 pm

chaosof99 · Post #520 by **chaosof99** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:25 am

We got Mrazek at a reasonable price, and Lindblom has been recalled. Good news on both fronts there.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #521 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:04 am

Kind of figured that stipulation was built in there for the 2019 3rd. I also guarantee Hextall lets him walk at that price.

The chances of the 2018 3rd becoming a 2nd are slim to none as well, and if the team does make the CF... well, it's tough to get too upset with that result.

Hovercraft · Post #522 by **Hovercraft** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:14 am

Yeah I don't see him re-signing here, we have 5 mil signed in goalies already. Solid trade though, glad Hextall gave up an asset to keep us in the race.

Konecny HypeTrain Captain · Post #523 by **Konecny HypeTrain Captain** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:22 am

I like the move, this is a great year to get playoff experience for some of the young guys.

Hovercraft · Post #524 by **Hovercraft** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:28 am

Interestingly, Detroit is retaining half his salary. Seems like Hex wanted to keep his options open for deadline acquisitions.

CantSeeColors · Post #525 by **CantSeeColors** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:40 am

Hovercraft wrote:Interestingly, Detroit is retaining half his salary. Seems like Hex wanted to keep his options open for deadline acquisitions.

Or he's aiming to maximize the space he has to absorb performance bonuses from guys on ELCs, which is a really shrewd move. Provorov is almost certainly going to get his, and Konecny or Patrick seem like they might be able to get something if they keep their improved play up.

chaosof99 · Post #526 by **chaosof99** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:52 am

Simmonds out 2-3 weeks. Makes Lindblom being recalled more sense since he'd be kind of a waste on the 4th line. Still rather shitty news.

Hovercraft · Post #527 by **Hovercraft** » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:17 pm

I wonder who will play with Jake and Patrick. Lindblom or Raffl or Weal?

Edit: per Sam C, Weal moved up to the 2nd line and Lindblom will be on the 3rd line with Laughton and Raffl.

chaosof99 · Post #528 by **chaosof99** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:42 am

Haven't really examined the Flyers contract situation in a while. Took a look at their CapFriendly page and then I realized that holy fuck, we have Ghost for another five years at 4.5 and Coots at 4.33 for another four. I'll be in my bunk.

Anyway, I really want them to get Grabner in the offseason on a short term contract. I admit that it is partially due to Grabner's nationality, but I love his speed and agility. He is having quite a year though and could get paid, even though he's 30 already. Only other acquisition I'd want is Athanasiou off Detroit. They will hardly be able to afford him given the pure insanity that is their cap situation. However, Flyers are also rather full up on Forwards.

vonbonds · Post #529 by **vonbonds** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:54 am

chaosof99 wrote:Haven't really examined the Flyers contract situation in a while. Took a look at their CapFriendly page and then I realized that holy fuck, we have Ghost for another five years at 4.5 and Coots at 4.33 for another four. I'll be in my bunk.

Anyway, I really want them to get Grabner in the offseason on a short term contract. I admit that it is partially due to Grabner's nationality, but I love his speed and agility. He is having quite a year though and could get paid, even though he's 30 already. Only other acquisition I'd want is Athanasiou off Detroit. They will hardly be able to afford him given the pure insanity that is their cap situation. However, Flyers are also rather full up on Forwards.

His speed will keep teams from grading him like other 30 year olds. It's why Patrick Marleau got a 3 year contract at whatever age he is because his skating is fine and not declining so far.

Hovercraft · Post #530 by **Hovercraft** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:12 pm

I don't see the need for any UFA additions next year really. If anything we'd need a bottom 6 C, not a winger. Grabner will probably be traded at the deadline this year.

Only flyers with expiring contracts are : Hagg, Manning and Flip. But after 18-19 we have a lot of people who need new deals: Provorov, Konecny, Simmonds, Laughton, Weal, Raffl, Sanheim + goalies. We are better off being conservative with cash next off season and banking the savings for the next off season.

Giroux-Couturier-Konecny
Weal-Patrick-Voracek
Lindblom-Laughton-Simmonds
Raffl-XXXXX-Leier/Turd#1/Turd#2

Provorov-Ghost
Macdonald-Hagg
Sanheim-Gudas
Morin

I think 3rd/4th C will be our biggest hole. Maybe Vecchione or someone gets a shot at 4th line C if Laughton is cemented as #3C to end this year. or If someone like Rubstov or Frost come in and steal 3C from Laughton in camp.

CantSeeColors · Post #531 by **CantSeeColors** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:38 pm

I have a suspicion Gudas gets traded this summer and Morin fills his spot.

Hovercraft · Post #532 by **Hovercraft** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:18 pm

Gudas being a natural RD makes it pretty hard to trade him. I expect Manning will go to UFA and walk but I don't think Gudas will be traded. Morin will need to compete with Hagg and Macdonald.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #533 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:28 pm

Makes sense. Move Gudas' contract to a west coast team while you still control his rights, pick up a little draft capital in the process, and re-sign Hagg, leaving the Flyers with two opening spots for Morin and Sanheim. What's not to like?

Rogers Pancreas · Post #534 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:30 pm

Hovercraft wrote:Gudas being a natural RD makes it pretty hard to trade him. I expect Manning will go to UFA and walk but I don't think Gudas will be traded. Morin will need to compete with Hagg and Macdonald.

What hand he shoots with matters about as much as his playoff beard potential.

You're also overlooking Sanheim, who's done his time with the Phantoms.

chaosof99 · Post #535 by **chaosof99** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:38 pm

Hovercraft wrote:I don't see the need for any UFA additions next year really.

It's not a need, it's a want. I understand that we don't exactly need to add these guys, but I really would love to have them and we have the cap space to facilitate it. Just think we could stick Weal into third line center and have four great lines by dropping Laughton to 4th line alongside Raffl. Of course without it we could just call Vecchione up and him them into the 4th.

vonbonds · Post #536 by **vonbonds** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:50 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
Hovercraft wrote:Gudas being a natural RD makes it pretty hard to trade him. I expect Manning will go to UFA and walk but I don't think Gudas will be traded. Morin will need to compete with Hagg and Macdonald.

What hand he shoots with matters about as much as his playoff beard potential.

You're also overlooking Sanheim, who's done his time with the Phantoms.

Why do you say that? Gudas being a natural RD is valuable in the NHL as hovercraft says. If he could control his nonsensical aggression he’d be very valuable. Just teach him that and keep him.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #537 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:14 pm

vonbonds wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:
Hovercraft wrote:Gudas being a natural RD makes it pretty hard to trade him. I expect Manning will go to UFA and walk but I don't think Gudas will be traded. Morin will need to compete with Hagg and Macdonald.

What hand he shoots with matters about as much as his playoff beard potential.

You're also overlooking Sanheim, who's done his time with the Phantoms.

Why do you say that? Gudas being a natural RD is valuable in the NHL as hovercraft says. If he could control his nonsensical aggression he’d be very valuable. Just teach him that and keep him.

I said it because I believe it. But, it's not exactly something anyone can prove or disprove because we'll never get an NHL player to alternate between his forehand and offhand season after season, all the while holding everything around him constant.

If you're looking for something a little more anecdotal, Gudas was playing on the top-pairing with Provorov, and he didn't look good. It didn't matter that we had a natural left and a natural right pairing. They just weren't a good fit, because one of those players was a fucking albatross. But when Hakstol got wise to Ghost and Provorov, they produced, and the team as a whole benefit from their success.

So, if there's a GM in this league that thinks three left-handed shots and three right-handed shots are going to make his team a Stanley Cup contender, fan-tastic. Rake that man over the coals for being so fucking stupid. And maybe throw in a fourth-line center with a great face-off percentage while we're at it, because we've all seen how much that matters.

vonbonds · Post #538 by **vonbonds** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:47 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
vonbonds wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:What hand he shoots with matters about as much as his playoff beard potential.

You're also overlooking Sanheim, who's done his time with the Phantoms.

Why do you say that? Gudas being a natural RD is valuable in the NHL as hovercraft says. If he could control his nonsensical aggression he’d be very valuable. Just teach him that and keep him.

I said it because I believe it. But, it's not exactly something anyone can prove or disprove because we'll never get an NHL player to alternate between his forehand and offhand season after season, all the while holding everything around him constant.

If you're looking for something a little more anecdotal, Gudas was playing on the top-pairing with Provorov, and he didn't look good. It didn't matter that we had a natural left and a natural right pairing. They just weren't a good fit, because one of those players was a fucking albatross. But when Hakstol got wise to Ghost and Provorov, they produced, and the team as a whole benefit from their success.

So, if there's a GM in this league that thinks three left-handed shots and three right-handed shots are going to make his team a Stanley Cup contender, fan-tastic. Rake that man over the coals for being so fucking stupid. And maybe throw in a fourth-line center with a great face-off percentage while we're at it, because we've all seen how much that matters.

I never said he’s a first pairing guy by any stretch but a 2nd or 3rd pairing is still valuable as a RD.

Hovercraft · Post #539 by **Hovercraft** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:18 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
Hovercraft wrote:Gudas being a natural RD makes it pretty hard to trade him. I expect Manning will go to UFA and walk but I don't think Gudas will be traded. Morin will need to compete with Hagg and Macdonald.

What hand he shoots with matters about as much as his playoff beard potential.

You're also overlooking Sanheim, who's done his time with the Phantoms.

I'm not overlooking Sanheim, I had him in my posted lineup.... If anything I'm overlooking Morin as I had him as 7th D. I also wouldn't be surprised if Myers jumps ahead of Morin soon.

Ryan Suter called out his coach a couple years ago because he greatly prefers playing with a RHD:

""I guess they decided to change things up. I don't know what they're thinking," Suter said. "It's different, I need to play with a right-handed defensemen to give me more options in the neutral zone, offensively and even coming out of the D zone. It's not fair to put a guy on his offside. I don't know if it's just for practice today or what it is, they didn't say anything.""

Some guys, like Ghost, thrive on their off side because it opens up more shooting lanes in the offensive zone. But whenever possible it's safer to have D on their natural side as then you aren't trying to make plays along the boards on your backhand. 100% of NHL d men are more comfortable on their forehand then their backhand.

I'm not saying Gudas is amazing, I just feel like he fits his role as a 4-6 physical D man well and he happens to be a RD, which whether you believe it or not is advantageous in the NHL. In a perfect world Macdonald would be gone and this wouldn't even be a discussion. Bringing up rookie D men and playing them in the NHL on their off side to start their careers is not a recipe for success. Of course, there are way more LHD than RHD in the NHL so it happens all the time, but I don't think Hextall get rid of this kind of flexibility for a mid round pick.

Babcock on RD-LD balance:
https://tipofthetower.com/2017/05/13/to ... n-problem/

Konecny HypeTrain Captain · Post #540 by **Konecny HypeTrain Captain** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:28 am

Feel like Gudas has to go just because of money, I don't see him here long term but I would be fine letting him play his contract out and walking.

Hovercraft · Post #541 by **Hovercraft** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:46 am

Yeah that's what I expect as well. I don't see him getting an extension, but I also don't see the point in moving him before his deal is up.

jester · Post #542 by **jester** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:03 pm

Gudas' fate is likely tied to Myers and Morin ... and neither is knocking on the door at present (due to injury, mostly).

chaosof99 · Post #543 by **chaosof99** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:53 am

Apparently there is a rumor floating around that Flyers are talking to the Sabres about Sam Reinhart. Could be a decent addition for a middle-six center, but depends on the price of course.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #544 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:51 pm

Again, no.

Konecny HypeTrain Captain · Post #545 by **Konecny HypeTrain Captain** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:32 am

RP might be on to something with these "no's"

Seriously Flyers should probably just sit pretty and let things play out for a while, we could be set everywhere and just have to fill bot 6 which isn't the hardest thing in the world to do.

jester · Post #546 by **jester** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:43 am

Konecny HypeTrain Captain wrote:RP might be on to something with these "no's"

Seriously Flyers should probably just sit pretty and let things play out for a while, we could be set everywhere and just have to fill bot 6 which isn't the hardest thing in the world to do.

The underlying questions is how many of the D prospects do you think are going to pan out, and which ones? Morin and Myers have a lot of potential value, but injury has gotten in the way this year. Sanheim ... is a test topic these days. But, one or two of these guys is moveable for an impact forward, in my opinion. Particularly, if you identify who will fail to meet potential.

Konecny HypeTrain Captain · Post #547 by **Konecny HypeTrain Captain** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:59 am

Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Myers, and then Hagg/Morin. That's how I value our D, I think somebody gets moved at some point for sure but the Flyers will sit until they are sure of their core even if the other prospects lose some value in the process. Ghost, Provorov and Sanheim are pretty untouchable to me and if Sanheim gets moved a stud needs to be coming back even if Sanheim goes with another prospect or pick. Ghost and Provorov are obviously not going to be traded.

Rogers Pancreas · Post #548 by **Rogers Pancreas** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:26 am

jester wrote:
Konecny HypeTrain Captain wrote:RP might be on to something with these "no's"

Seriously Flyers should probably just sit pretty and let things play out for a while, we could be set everywhere and just have to fill bot 6 which isn't the hardest thing in the world to do.

The underlying questions is how many of the D prospects do you think are going to pan out, and which ones? Morin and Myers have a lot of potential value, but injury has gotten in the way this year. Sanheim ... is a test topic these days. But, one or two of these guys is moveable for an impact forward, in my opinion. Particularly, if you identify who will fail to meet potential.

The answers to those questions are 1) no one knows, and 2) no one knows. And until we start to find out the answers to those questions, Hextall needs to just sit and look pretty. Now, if you want to talk about moving Morin or Hagg, there's less inherent risk because the offensive upside with either of those two seems to be pretty limited. Sanheim and Myers are too big, skate two well, and have too much offensive upside for me to ever consider parting with, though. Especially when we only have Ghost and Provorov to fall back on right now.

I'm just curious. Do you consider Reinhart an "impact forward?" And if not, who on the market would you consider an "impact forward."

jester · Post #549 by **jester** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:11 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
jester wrote:
Konecny HypeTrain Captain wrote:RP might be on to something with these "no's"

Seriously Flyers should probably just sit pretty and let things play out for a while, we could be set everywhere and just have to fill bot 6 which isn't the hardest thing in the world to do.

The underlying questions is how many of the D prospects do you think are going to pan out, and which ones? Morin and Myers have a lot of potential value, but injury has gotten in the way this year. Sanheim ... is a test topic these days. But, one or two of these guys is moveable for an impact forward, in my opinion. Particularly, if you identify who will fail to meet potential.

The answers to those questions are 1) no one knows, and 2) no one knows. And until we start to find out the answers to those questions, Hextall needs to just sit and look pretty. Now, if you want to talk about moving Morin or Hagg, there's less inherent risk because the offensive upside with either of those two seems to be pretty limited. Sanheim and Myers are too big, skate two well, and have too much offensive upside for me to ever consider parting with, though. Especially when we only have Ghost and Provorov to fall back on right now.

I'm just curious. Do you consider Reinhart an "impact forward?" And if not, who on the market would you consider an "impact forward."

I'm ambivalent about Reinhart, haven't seen him play enough. As far as the "no one knows" part, I'm not sure that's a particularly good argument against a hypothetical trade. One of the reasons a trade is possible is precisely because "no one knows." If you know you have a stud D, you are probably not trading him. If you know you got a guy that isn't going to max out, then he loses value. That is the rub, it's a gamble. If you're right, you get a good return for an overvalued asset (Mike Richards). If you're wrong, you send Patrick Sharp to Chicago.

FlyHigh · Post #550 by **FlyHigh** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:09 am

Seemed like the Reinhart thing was more just idle speculation by Friedman/Marek right?

I think the point was made in another thread by chaos, but don't see what we'd do with a young "impact forward." Team might have a slight 2C/3C hole right now, but you'd hope that 2 of Patrick/Frost/Laughton are able to fill those roles in the coming years and on the wing, you have Konecny/Giroux/Voracek as solid top-6 guys, Lindblom seems to have done OK in the AHL, and somebody on The Athletic pointed out that apparently Aube-Kubel leads the AHL in even-strength points (doesn't get PP time) and has really strong possession numbers. Plus you figure guys like Weal/Raffl are fairly solid top-9 contributors.

This team is probably a good top-4 d-man (and solid goaltending) away from being a mildly interesting playoff team (thus my personal frustration at the refusal to play Sanheim, particularly considering that our bottom-4 is getting gashed right now and has been for the last ~25 games).

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