2018 Hart Discussion.

The Tendoncy to Retire is Natural
User avatar
Rogers Pancreas
Posts: 3700
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:00 am
Location: New York
Has given rep: 55 times
Received rep: 128 times

2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #1 by Rogers Pancreas » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:51 pm

It's kind of an open award this season. Rinne and Bobrovsky are both franchise goaltenders that keep the Predators and Bluejackets relevant in national media (media that would much rather focus on Chicago and Pittsburgh than some expansion teams). Hall has absolutely zero help surrounding him, yet he managed to get the Devils to the playoffs when a lot of us all thought they had no business being in that conversation. Then, you have Kopitar and Giroux that put up some real sexy numbers playing hard minutes. I don't know who will win it, but I want to say that any of those five have a case.
His Satanic Majestic Request
User avatar
Boring Choice #2
Posts: 8091
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 1979 6:06 am
Has given rep: 928 times
Received rep: 903 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #2 by Boring Choice #2 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:57 pm

It'll be MacKinnon, but game 82 showed why Hall he should be a finalist.
User avatar
Hovercraft
Registered Broad
Posts: 3080
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:59 pm
Location: Newfoundland
Has given rep: 38 times
Received rep: 46 times
Contact:

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #3 by Hovercraft » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Giroux should at least get a nomination. Really competitive award this year.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 7221
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 11 times
Received rep: 137 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #4 by jester » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:40 pm

Voting will be really interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see a weird outcome just because votes will be distributed across multiple candidates a bit more evenly than usual.
User avatar
dbr
Registered Broad
Posts: 2636
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:16 pm
Has given rep: 20 times
Received rep: 4 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #5 by dbr » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:17 pm

The writers' votes are made public this year as well.
User avatar
Rogers Pancreas
Posts: 3700
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:00 am
Location: New York
Has given rep: 55 times
Received rep: 128 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #6 by Rogers Pancreas » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:59 pm

Boring Choice #2 wrote:It'll be MacKinnon, but game 82 showed why Hall he should be a finalist.

I can't tell you how much I hate the idea of MacKinnon winning it this year.
His Satanic Majestic Request
User avatar
Konecny HypeTrain Captain
Registered Broad
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:43 pm
Has given rep: 56 times
Received rep: 68 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #7 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:44 pm

I honestly thought this was a thread strictly related to discussing Carter Hart, I am now highly disappointed
User avatar
Craig
Registered Broad
Posts: 20397
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Guelph
Has given rep: 51 times
Received rep: 723 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #8 by Craig » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:00 am

I think McDavid has a better shot at winning this than people think. Besides putting up the most points, this thing is voted for by writers and writers love writing stories about him. He gets so much more coverage from out of market press than guys like Kopitar or Hall do.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 7221
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 11 times
Received rep: 137 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #9 by jester » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:33 am

Craig wrote:I think McDavid has a better shot at winning this than people think. Besides putting up the most points, this thing is voted for by writers and writers love writing stories about him. He gets so much more coverage from out of market press than guys like Kopitar or Hall do.


I bet he gets a good number of 2nd place (he's the best player) votes. Depending on how the 1st place votes split, it could get interesting.
User avatar
FlyHigh
Registered Broad
Posts: 2762
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:48 am
Has given rep: 6 times
Received rep: 27 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #10 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:29 am

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
Boring Choice #2 wrote:It'll be MacKinnon, but game 82 showed why Hall he should be a finalist.

I can't tell you how much I hate the idea of MacKinnon winning it this year.


Just curious as to why? 6 or 7 guys seem very deserving, but MacKinnon would be in my top-3, that team seems very short on talent after him and Rantanen.
User avatar
Hovercraft
Registered Broad
Posts: 3080
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:59 pm
Location: Newfoundland
Has given rep: 38 times
Received rep: 46 times
Contact:

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #11 by Hovercraft » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:34 pm

Barely any players have won the Hart on a team that missed the playoffs, thats the biggest knock on McDavid.
CantSeeColors
Registered Broad
Posts: 2604
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:44 am
Has given rep: 63 times
Received rep: 42 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #12 by CantSeeColors » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:17 pm

Why do people put stock into the rest of the team in this debate? That's a measure of their own value, not of the hart candidate's value
User avatar
Boring Choice #2
Posts: 8091
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 1979 6:06 am
Has given rep: 928 times
Received rep: 903 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #13 by Boring Choice #2 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:41 pm

The definition is "player judged most valuable to his team" and thus measures the value of the team and not just the value of the individual player.

But it doesn't specifically refer to other players or whether they make the playoffs. For instance, if Ilya Kovalchuk was the only reason that Atlanta didn't fold and move to another city or go bankrupt, wouldn't that make him pretty valuable?
User avatar
FlyHigh
Registered Broad
Posts: 2762
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:48 am
Has given rep: 6 times
Received rep: 27 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #14 by FlyHigh » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:58 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:Why do people put stock into the rest of the team in this debate? That's a measure of their own value, not of the hart candidate's value


I enjoy the narrative aspect. Realistically, if you went strictly by "candidate value", (1) a goalie would win the Hart every year or (2) McDavid would win for the next decade (which might happen anyway).

But the Avs are kind of a tirefire without MacKinnon and same for the Devils and Hall. The Avs have gotten really good ES goaltending which I guess might detract somewhat from MacKinnon's case, but the fact that both teams are in the POs is kind of nuts.

I think the main thing that would "detract" from Giroux's case for me is that he has a stronger supporting cast than both of those guys, but all 3 teams finished right around each other in points. Obviously doesn't take away from the fact that Giroux's been phenomenal and has come up with some massive goals/plays down the stretch.
User avatar
Boring Choice #2
Posts: 8091
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 1979 6:06 am
Has given rep: 928 times
Received rep: 903 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #15 by Boring Choice #2 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:04 pm

mostly, the concept of the award is dumb, because it is a team sport and all the members of the team are valuable in their own ways. is a goalie more valuable than a goalscorer or a defensive defenceman or a 4th line scrub? they all have their roles and play a part in the team's success. it'd be better if the award was for the best player in the league that season, but it's not.
User avatar
Hovercraft
Registered Broad
Posts: 3080
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:59 pm
Location: Newfoundland
Has given rep: 38 times
Received rep: 46 times
Contact:

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #16 by Hovercraft » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:20 pm

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-hart-troph ... =277729400

NHL.com writers votes in mock:

Voting totals (points awarded on a 5-4-3-2-1 basis): Nathan MacKinnon, Avalanche, 62 points (seven first-place votes); Taylor Hall, New Jersey Devils, 54 (three first-place votes); Anze Kopitar, Los Angeles Kings, 43 (three first-place votes); Nikita Kucherov, Tampa Bay Lightning, 26 (two first-place votes); Claude Giroux, Philadelphia Flyers, 18; Evgeni Malkin, Pittsburgh Penguins, 15; Connor McDavid, Edmonton Oilers, 15 (one first place-vote); Blake Wheeler, Winnipeg Jets, 11; Alex Ovechkin, Washington Capitals, 8 (one first-place vote); Artemi Panarin, Columbus Blue Jackets, 1; Brad Marchand, Boston Bruins, 1; Steven Stamkos, Tampa Bay Lightning, 1
User avatar
Rogers Pancreas
Posts: 3700
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:00 am
Location: New York
Has given rep: 55 times
Received rep: 128 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #17 by Rogers Pancreas » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:28 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
Rogers Pancreas wrote:
Boring Choice #2 wrote:It'll be MacKinnon, but game 82 showed why Hall he should be a finalist.

I can't tell you how much I hate the idea of MacKinnon winning it this year.


Just curious as to why? 6 or 7 guys seem very deserving, but MacKinnon would be in my top-3, that team seems very short on talent after him and Rantanen.

When you have 6 or 7 guys, like we said, there's a lot of different ways the votes can fall. But in my mind...

1) Kopitar and Giroux spent more TOI short-handed than any of the other candidates, they put up outstanding numbers, and they did it receiving the least generous offensive zone starts, which should have made it more difficult to produce. I have to give them credit for that much.

2) Hall's utilization is similar to MacKinnon's, but the secondary scoring he received in contrast was virtually non-existant, making the Devils trip out of the Metro' to the playoffs even more impressive. And it's not as if Cory Schneider, who didn't have a single win in 2018, bailed everyone out this year. So, I have to give Hall credit there as well.

3) Unlike Kopitar, Giroux, and Hall, MacKinnon missed a significant amount of time this season. It may seem petty to keep him out of the conversation for what he may not have been able to control, but you can't honestly say that he contributed any value whoatsoever in those games he did miss - roughly 10-12% of the regular season. So, I think he has that working against him.

4) Goaltenders, like Bobrovsky and Rinne, may not be able to play every game like forwards. But, they are counted on to play 60 minutes of 50-60 games in the regular season, and they are counted on to make every save possible in the shoot-out. We can argue about supporting cast and utilization, but we've seen in the playoffs already - when either faulters (Bobrovsky or Rinne), their team implodes; when they dominate, their teams dominate. It's not altogether different from Kopitar and Giroux in that respect.
His Satanic Majestic Request
CantSeeColors
Registered Broad
Posts: 2604
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:44 am
Has given rep: 63 times
Received rep: 42 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #18 by CantSeeColors » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:34 pm

Someone riddle me this: how does one provide value to a team other than by being good at hockey? And by extension then, how can someone be more valuable to their team than the person who had the best season?
User avatar
JLHockeyKnight
Registered Broad
Posts: 2882
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:02 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Has given rep: 111 times
Received rep: 39 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #19 by JLHockeyKnight » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:46 pm

Hovercraft wrote:https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-hart-trophy-race-filled-with-quality-mvp-candidates/c-297815268?tid=277729400

NHL.com writers votes in mock:

Voting totals (points awarded on a 5-4-3-2-1 basis): Nathan MacKinnon, Avalanche, 62 points (seven first-place votes); Taylor Hall, New Jersey Devils, 54 (three first-place votes); Anze Kopitar, Los Angeles Kings, 43 (three first-place votes); Nikita Kucherov, Tampa Bay Lightning, 26 (two first-place votes); Claude Giroux, Philadelphia Flyers, 18; Evgeni Malkin, Pittsburgh Penguins, 15; Connor McDavid, Edmonton Oilers, 15 (one first place-vote); Blake Wheeler, Winnipeg Jets, 11; Alex Ovechkin, Washington Capitals, 8 (one first-place vote); Artemi Panarin, Columbus Blue Jackets, 1; Brad Marchand, Boston Bruins, 1; Steven Stamkos, Tampa Bay Lightning, 1


I get MacKinnon, Hall, and Kopitar, but whoever voted for Kucherov over Giroux needs to pull their heads out of their ass. Look at the team around Kucherov and then tell me again how valuable he is.

My money is on Hall. He doesn't really have anyone noteworthy around him. Devils are picking top 5 in the draft this year if it isn't for Hall.

MacKinnon is a close runner up in my book. Hoping Giroux at least gets a nomination, he's deserving of it.
User avatar
Rogers Pancreas
Posts: 3700
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:00 am
Location: New York
Has given rep: 55 times
Received rep: 128 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #20 by Rogers Pancreas » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:52 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:Someone riddle me this: how does one provide value to a team other than by being good at hockey? And by extension then, how can someone be more valuable to their team than the person who had the best season?

Player A is on a team that is very well-rounded. Player A suffers a long-term injury. His team, Team A, does not perform as well while Player A is out, but remains competitive.

Player B is on a team that is filled with dregs. Player B suffers the same long-term injury that takes him out of the game. His team, Team B, implodes.

Which player was more valuable to his team?
His Satanic Majestic Request
CantSeeColors
Registered Broad
Posts: 2604
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:44 am
Has given rep: 63 times
Received rep: 42 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #21 by CantSeeColors » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:25 pm

Rogers Pancreas wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:Someone riddle me this: how does one provide value to a team other than by being good at hockey? And by extension then, how can someone be more valuable to their team than the person who had the best season?

Player A is on a team that is very well-rounded. Player A suffers a long-term injury. His team, Team A, does not perform as well while Player A is out, but remains competitive.

Player B is on a team that is filled with dregs. Player B suffers the same long-term injury that takes him out of the game. His team, Team B, implodes.

Which player was more valuable to his team?

You'd have to tell me how well Players A and B played. All you're telling me is what value their teammates provided.
User avatar
Konecny HypeTrain Captain
Registered Broad
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:43 pm
Has given rep: 56 times
Received rep: 68 times

Re: 2018 Hart Discussion.

Post #22 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Tue May 01, 2018 4:41 pm

G isn't even a finalist

Return to “The Eric Wellwood Memorial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests