FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

And some artists..
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #601 by Dog » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:44 pm

I think you are right, Slique Nique. Longing for spirituality/the magical/the unrational is much more central to the critique than I thought.

I saw it as a critique of totalitarianism which stiffles creativity. Because that’s what I think causes the dystopia he critiqued. But, he blames “reason/loss of spirituality” much more than I saw. It seems evident now from his choice of allegory (some mysterious alien magical zone), to his portrayal of the scientist as reductionist and materialist and of the nihilist writer as creatively spent. The final scene also squares nicely with the “magical”.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #602 by Slick Nick » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:48 pm

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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #603 by Dog » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:55 pm

I don’t agree with the assessment, which is probably where my blind spot comes from.

Like I mentionned, I would blame totalitarianism for the dystopia, not lack of faith in the magical.

I don’t get this feeling of loss over religiosity. I was raised very religiously. I was very religious until my late teens/early twenties. Then I read the bible, decided quickly that it was a historical-mythological story of a given ancient world people and not reliable as a source of what the universe or humens are. Turned atheist. No hard feelings and no great sense of loss. I continued searching for understanding with “better sources”. I didn’t lose my “spirituality” in the sense of my sense of wonder and awe and curiosity for the world. If anything, it grew. Substantially. Questions were no longer answered. They needed probing. It’s exciting. Science, to me, is much more “spiritual” than religion. Religion is dogma. Science is true search for “truth”, for understanding the universe and the human condition. Itnis the true state of contemplation. Real contemplation, not make believe pre-digested contemplation. A world of religion/magical thinking is where true “spirituality” dies in my mind.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #604 by Retardé S » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:34 am

Sounds interesting, will try to check it out this week. Kinda Kierkegaard-esque?
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #605 by Mufasa » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:03 am

Il y a aussi un rapport à la nature qui semble leur être étranger dans le monde obscure de la ville. Comment leur corp redécouvre la nature, les chemins impossibles comme les animaux qui se déplacent en se fiant à d'autres sens que la vue, chemins non raisonnables. La zone c'est d'abord la nature, ils en sont tellement extraits qu'une simple plaine devient une inquiétante étrangeté, ils sont tellement aliénés qu'une simple balade leur demande un guide clandestin et une aventure guérilla juste pour y parvenir.

Tarkovsky ne détestait pas les communistes parce qu'ils le privaient de liberté, mais parce qu'ils avaient persécuté l'Église et bulldozé la culture traditionnelle russe qui s'y rattachait. Il a même renié Solaris parce qu'il trouvait que la technologie du film empêchait un véritable rapport à l'essentiel, il méprisait l'occident pour la même raison.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #606 by Mufasa » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:08 am

Retarder S wrote:Sounds interesting, will try to check it out this week. Kinda Kierkegaard-esque?


Je dirais nietzschéen, pour le thème de l'après chrétienté. Pour Nietzsche les pires êtres humains sont les nihilistes, suivi des scientifiques, ce sont les derniers hommes qui méprises les grandes idées et les grandes émotions. Le personnage du chrétien est aussi dépendant de la zone pour se donner du pouvoir et de l'importance, comme les chrétiens avec la religion. Tarkovsky était fasciné par les écrits de Nietzsche.


Mais je ne connais que le journal d'un séducteur et le concept du chevalier de la foi chez Kierkegaard, pourrais pas en dire grand chose.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #607 by Retardé S » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:38 am

Mufasa wrote:
Retarder S wrote:Sounds interesting, will try to check it out this week. Kinda Kierkegaard-esque?


Je dirais nietzschéen, pour le thème de l'après chrétienté. Pour Nietzsche les pires êtres humains sont les nihilistes, suivi des scientifiques, ce sont les derniers hommes qui méprises les grandes idées et les grandes émotions. Le personnage du chrétien est aussi dépendant de la zone pour se donner du pouvoir et de l'importance, comme les chrétiens avec la religion. Tarkovsky était fasciné par les écrits de Nietzsche.


Mais je ne connais que le journal d'un séducteur et le concept du chevalier de la foi chez Kierkegaard, pourrais pas en dire grand chose.


Well it sounds like it touches the subject of existentialism which both of those men focused on heavily. I have very superficial knowledge about philosophy, but existentialism has always compelled me, and it seems like today we're in the midst of a crisis. The relationship between the subjective and objective seems to be in conflict because people believe (or need to believe) the world is as they experience it.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #608 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:39 am

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:Whatever the interpretation, wannit the cinematography, the dialogue and overall mood the thing conveys superb? It’s a movie, not a treatise. It’s aim is to convey a feeling / a general mood or idea. It’s not as blunt as music and not as precise as a book. It’s somewhere between the two. In this regard, I think this one is certainly up there in quality.


It's great. They don't make movies like that anymore.. well Blade Runner had some of that feel, a lot of organic textures and composition. Villeneuve is a great mens.


I’m not a big fan of Villeneuve. Sicario and Incendies were duds to me. Haven’t watched Blade Runner or Arrival yet.


I liked Incendies, but then i related with the theme intimatele so there was that.

Sicario was probably better though i didn't particulièrement like it.

Arrival is just ok. The story kills it for me. The directing and acting is great though.

Can't say i care about seeing bladerunner. Maybe.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #609 by Macbeth » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:50 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
It's great. They don't make movies like that anymore.. well Blade Runner had some of that feel, a lot of organic textures and composition. Villeneuve is a great mens.


I’m not a big fan of Villeneuve. Sicario and Incendies were duds to me. Haven’t watched Blade Runner or Arrival yet.


I liked Incendies, but then i related with the theme intimatele so there was that.

Sicario was probably better though i didn't particulièrement like it.

Arrival is just ok. The story kills it for me. The directing and acting is great though.

Can't say i care about seeing bladerunner. Maybe.


I thoroughly enjoy Villeneuve's work.

Even the weak dishwater garbage he turns into captivating filmmaking (it helps having Deakins as your DOP on "Sicario" and "Prisoners").

Shave about 30 minutes off 2049 and you get an amazing piece of work. As it stands, it's a good but lumbering film with impressive staging and wonderful cinematography. That final sequence in the water is nothing short of brilliant.

I usually dislike this kind of sci-fi, but I left the theatre in awe. That's enough for me.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #610 by Mufasa » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:25 am

The sequence in the water will be studied in film schools for generations.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #611 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:50 am

They have schools where you watch movies??

:stare:
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #612 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:58 am

Kinda bummed out by this Tarkovski fellow. Wonderful filmaker. He asks the right questions, but I disagree with his answers. I can get behind a guy searching. A guy looking for meaning or looking for freedom. I can get behind a humanist. But, a guy concluding that what is wrong with the world is too much rationality and not enough mysticism/magical thinking? Not so much. In any event, still thought the film was wonderfully made. Will watch again and try some of his other works (he only has like 7 or something).
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #613 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:06 pm

I kinda disagree with Retarder’s assessment that the world is in a particular existential crisis. Well, maybe it is, but I think that’s a recurring event. A tug and pull between progressives and traditionalists, under various incarnations.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #614 by Mufasa » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:08 pm

Tarkovsky is a dumbass.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #615 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:09 pm

Mufasa wrote:Tarkovsky is a dumbass.


Good goalie name, tho.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #616 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:13 pm

I wouldn’t call him a dumbass. I’m genuinely interested in how smart people can come to opposing conclusions when presented similar facts. I think it goes back to ´core beliefs’ which can be there for silly reasons (some experience or story that shapes your frame of reference). Then, you see things through that lense. Maybe it’s part genetics too. I dunno.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #617 by Slick Nick » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:16 pm

Litecoin 185$

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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #618 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:17 pm

The future is in KryptoKitties
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #619 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:18 pm

Btw, great talking to you guys. Wonderful discussions when some of you put in the effort.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #620 by Craig » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:25 pm

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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #621 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:28 pm

Dog wrote:I wouldn’t call him a dumbass. I’m genuinely interested in how smart people can come to opposing conclusions when presented similar facts. I think it goes back to ´core beliefs’ which can be there for silly reasons (some experience or story that shapes your frame of reference). Then, you see things through that lense. Maybe it’s part genetics too. I dunno.


I saw grappling with this question (ie. « what’s at your core / what’s in the Room ») as Stalkers central theme. And I though the way he approached that remarkable. Maybe it’s nothing (all just transitory desires). Maybe it’s something you don’t want to find out. Maybe it’s dangerous to even search, you can get lost/persish. Maybe it’s materialistic. Maybe it’s family. Maybe if you set the human spirit free it will lead to fantastic unforeseen future capabilities (how I saw the ending).

Thought that was great. But that was me watching the movie with my liberal/humanist glasses. The dude was lamenting that reason killed magic. Urgh.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #622 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:32 pm

Greg, now I’m worried avout Greg! How is Greg doing? Greg should open up more on the internets (or pm).
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #623 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:32 pm

I find the incredible complexity of physical, natural and human relations.. across the spectrum of existence (a fundamentally observable reality) to be inherently spiritual/magical.

Reason, science, thought, observation, analysis, etc. are all beautiful and magical. Only dumbasses see a duality and an opposition between the "real" and the "magic".
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #624 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:35 pm

When one thinks about the incredible random and not so random elements that have caused existence as we all perceive it right now, one should be awestruck and humbled and feel connected to every other floating and shooting particle in the universe.

One should not be sad that seeing the particle takes away some mystical element. If at all, existence itself is just as amazing as the belief in magic.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #625 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:36 pm

But then again, as a kid, I was always more impressed at magic tricks after they tell you how to do them vs when they were "magic".
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #626 by Slick Nick » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:40 pm

Dog wrote:Kinda bummed out by this Tarkovski fellow. Wonderful filmaker. He asks the right questions, but I disagree with his answers. I can get behind a guy searching. A guy looking for meaning or looking for freedom. I can get behind a humanist. But, a guy concluding that what is wrong with the world is too much rationality and not enough mysticism/magical thinking? Not so much. In any event, still thought the film was wonderfully made. Will watch again and try some of his other works (he only has like 7 or something).


When you hear your daughter laugh, do you only think it pleases you because you evolved into a thing that is positively triggered by some noises? Same goes when you bang your wife or listen to a violin solo or enjoy a great bottle of wine. I mean, from the moment you enjoy things on a level above the rational/scientific one you enter the realm of the magical/mystical. Also, you tend to mix religion and ontology. Einstein and Newton were both far from being anti-scientific morans, yet they both believed that the causes of their findings had to be searched in the mystical. Science is great at pointing out the how but is clueless at explaining the why.I think what Tarkovsky tries to convey is that there are many levels to being and that by perusing blindly a scientific course, we might be missing on some important aspects. Yet at the same time, he criticizes the role of religions and considers that it can be extremely harmful when used irresponsibly.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #627 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:42 pm

AD wrote:I find the incredible complexity of physical, natural and human relations.. across the spectrum of existence (a fundamentally observable reality) to be inherently spiritual/magical.

Reason, science, thought, observation, analysis, etc. are all beautiful and magical. Only dumbasses see a duality and an opposition between the "real" and the "magic".


I think we need to define terms. If you mean « spiritual/magical » in terms of awe inspiring / feeling of transcendence / respect and curiosity for nature and all of existance, then I agree. If you mean you get there by holding dogmatic views as truth (ie. excluding or subordinating reason), I disagree. I get that feeling « spiritual / transcendending » is cool. I can get that from any number of completely ´secular’ experiences. There is no need for religion for that. This is a false dichotomy thatbreligious people bring up. That without religion there is no spirituality. Mofos, I get spirituality from a great many things (many very mundane) without any belief in the supernatural.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #628 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:42 pm

Slick Nick wrote:When you hear your daughter laugh, do you only think it pleases you because you evolved into a thing that is positively triggered by some noises?


Please don't answer that Dog.

Slick Nick wrote:Same goes when you bang your wife


Seriously. Don't.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #629 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:42 pm

Nobody is saying otherwise, you maroon.

/AD
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #630 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:43 pm

Dog wrote:Nobody is saying otherwise, you maroon.

/AD


Yeah, but you’re not quite saying that either. Devil’s in the detail.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #631 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:45 pm

AD wrote:When one thinks about the incredible random and not so random elements that have caused existence as we all perceive it right now, one should be awestruck and humbled and feel connected to every other floating and shooting particle in the universe.

One should not be sad that seeing the particle takes away some mystical element. If at all, existence itself is just as amazing as the belief in magic.


Exactly! I find scientific findings much more spiritual / awe inspiring (even if it turns out to be wholly materialistic) that traditional dogma. The truth is so much more rich than fiction.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #632 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:48 pm

AD wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:When you hear your daughter laugh, do you only think it pleases you because you evolved into a thing that is positively triggered by some noises?


Please don't answer that Dog.

Slick Nick wrote:Same goes when you bang your wife


Seriously. Don't.


The answer is YES (sorry nanners) and I have NO problem with that. I don’t need enhanced reality (if Inhave to make it up).

It is what it is and what it is is plenty super cool enough for me.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #633 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:49 pm

Dog wrote:
AD wrote:When one thinks about the incredible random and not so random elements that have caused existence as we all perceive it right now, one should be awestruck and humbled and feel connected to every other floating and shooting particle in the universe.

One should not be sad that seeing the particle takes away some mystical element. If at all, existence itself is just as amazing as the belief in magic.


Exactly! I find scientific findings much more spiritual / awe inspiring (even if it turns out to be wholly materialistic) that traditional dogma. The truth is so much more rich than fiction.


Why does the spiritual have to be supernatural in dumbasses minds?

What the fuck is supernatural? I mean, if something exists (whether it is "spiritual", "beyond our current ability to explain", etc.) does not inherently mean its not part of our natural existence.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #634 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:50 pm

Dog wrote:
AD wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:When you hear your daughter laugh, do you only think it pleases you because you evolved into a thing that is positively triggered by some noises?


Please don't answer that Dog.

Slick Nick wrote:Same goes when you bang your wife


Seriously. Don't.


The answer is YES (sorry nanners) and I have NO problem with that. I don’t need enhanced reality (if Inhave to make it up).

It is what it is and what it is is plenty super cool enough for me.


I told you not to answer..

:facepalm:
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #635 by Retardé S » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:51 pm

Well I never said it was a new event or particular (although technological advancement brings a dimension of volatility), I think it's an intrinsic angst in the build of the west that's been building up. Right now we're at the core of it, people seem to be more conscious/anxious of it in a way or another (hence why I used the term existential crisis). Traditional belief systems are prone to being blown appart because of the "McDonald's" nature of our worldview...

Further than progressives vs traditionalists, I would say it's nihilism vs whatever it is that is countering it. Although you can say there's an amount of nihilism in progressivism and what's countering it has an amount of traditionalism.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #636 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:51 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
AD wrote:When one thinks about the incredible random and not so random elements that have caused existence as we all perceive it right now, one should be awestruck and humbled and feel connected to every other floating and shooting particle in the universe.

One should not be sad that seeing the particle takes away some mystical element. If at all, existence itself is just as amazing as the belief in magic.


Exactly! I find scientific findings much more spiritual / awe inspiring (even if it turns out to be wholly materialistic) that traditional dogma. The truth is so much more rich than fiction.


Why does the spiritual have to be supernatural in dumbasses minds?

What the fuck is supernatural? I mean, if something exists (whether it is "spiritual", "beyond our current ability to explain", etc.) does not inherently mean its not part of our natural existence.


Supernatural, to me, means dogma. Something held as truth with no evidence. Heck, even against evidence to the contrary.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #637 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:57 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
AD wrote:
Please don't answer that Dog.



Seriously. Don't.


The answer is YES (sorry nanners) and I have NO problem with that. I don’t need enhanced reality (if Inhave to make it up).

It is what it is and what it is is plenty super cool enough for me.


I told you not to answer..

:facepalm:


That argument bugs me to no end. Not liking the implication of something or liking the implication of something has no impact on what it actually is. I don’t like the implications of cancer, yet it exists. One may not like the implication of descending feom apes, well guess what you don’t have a choice, you did descend from apes...
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #638 by Slick Nick » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:59 pm

Image
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #639 by Slick Nick » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:02 pm

Can someone slip some lsd in dog's plain water?

:why:
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #640 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:06 pm

And he blames his wife for being crazy, stressed and emotional.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #641 by Retardé S » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:25 pm

Dog wrote:
AD wrote:When one thinks about the incredible random and not so random elements that have caused existence as we all perceive it right now, one should be awestruck and humbled and feel connected to every other floating and shooting particle in the universe.

One should not be sad that seeing the particle takes away some mystical element. If at all, existence itself is just as amazing as the belief in magic.


Exactly! I find scientific findings much more spiritual / awe inspiring (even if it turns out to be wholly materialistic) that traditional dogma. The truth is so much more rich than fiction.


That's if you think of religion only by the lens of those who use it as a tool of manipulation in this planet, but the objective truth found in religion is simply on how to act towards each other.

It's not a methodology that's meant to rival science, that's a human construct. I agree when you say there's nothing to reconcile, but you ironically speak of religion as portrayed by the fundamentalists, Doge. :danson:
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #642 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:28 pm

Retarder S wrote:
Dog wrote:
AD wrote:When one thinks about the incredible random and not so random elements that have caused existence as we all perceive it right now, one should be awestruck and humbled and feel connected to every other floating and shooting particle in the universe.

One should not be sad that seeing the particle takes away some mystical element. If at all, existence itself is just as amazing as the belief in magic.


Exactly! I find scientific findings much more spiritual / awe inspiring (even if it turns out to be wholly materialistic) that traditional dogma. The truth is so much more rich than fiction.


That's if you think of religion only by the lens of those who use it as a tool of manipulation in this planet, but the objective truth found in religion is simply on how to act towards each other.

It's not a methodology that's meant to rival science, that's a human construct. I agree when you say there's nothing to reconcile, but you ironically speak of religion as portrayed by the fundamentalists, Doge. :danson:


By definition, without dogma it’s not religion. It’s stories. Religion needs a claim to the truth and it does so via dogma.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #643 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 pm

AD wrote:And he blames his wife for being crazy, stressed and emotional.


All I ask of people is to be as rational as possible. And humanists, cause we don’t want rational greg’s killing hobos. Rational humanists. Everything else is crap!
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #644 by AD » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:30 pm

Dog likes to creates equivalencies between spirituality, religion and dogma.

I may agree on the last two by the way, dog.














You moran.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #645 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:32 pm

AD wrote:Dog likes to creates equivalencies between spirituality, religion and dogma.

I may agree on the last two by the way, dog.




You moran.


Wut?
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #646 by Craig » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Dog wrote:Greg, now I’m worried avout Greg! How is Greg doing? Greg should open up more on the internets (or pm).


Huh? Why?
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #647 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:45 pm

You mofos are having problems with definitions again.

Religion implies use of dogma. That’s how it makes assertions. It doesn’t test hypothesis, it makes affirmations which it holds as truths by virtue of having been asserted (often by appealing to authority). In that sense (the way it « reasons »), religion is similar to appeals to tradition. Things held as truths because authority.

Science is fundamentally different in its approach. It makes affirmations based on empirical evidence. It’s not iron clad reasoning, for the most part. The vast majority of scientific « knowledge » is based on inductive reasoning rather than deductive reasoning. It is reasoning by analogy or by proxy to a large extent. It then becomes not a question of certainty, but a question of probability. Most scientific “knowledge” is in fact asserting what is more likely, more probable. It is rational to hold the claims that are most probable (with greater the confidence when more probable). It can change. New findings can change assertions. That’s not a problem.

The fundamental difference is in the way religion/tradition ´reasons’ and the way science ´reasons’. One appeals to dogma and authority to make claims, the other to experimentation, observatition and deriving theoried based on likely explanations.

And ´morality’ isn’t religion. It’s morality. It exists independant of religion.

The human brain isn’t primarily geared towards scientific thinking, though. It requires alot of energy. Even scientistis seldomly think scientifically (outside of the specific thing they are studying -and even then, they are prone to bias).
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #648 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:45 pm

Craig wrote:
Dog wrote:Greg, now I’m worried avout Greg! How is Greg doing? Greg should open up more on the internets (or pm).


Huh? Why?


You seem a little blue. I want to give you a hug, Greg!
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #649 by Dog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:59 pm

Retarder S wrote:Well I never said it was a new event or particular (although technological advancement brings a dimension of volatility), I think it's an intrinsic angst in the build of the west that's been building up. Right now we're at the core of it, people seem to be more conscious/anxious of it in a way or another (hence why I used the term existential crisis). Traditional belief systems are prone to being blown appart because of the "McDonald's" nature of our worldview...

Further than progressives vs traditionalists, I would say it's nihilism vs whatever it is that is countering it. Although you can say there's an amount of nihilism in progressivism and what's countering it has an amount of traditionalism.


I’m not sure. I’m not sure this is anything different than culture clashes of say the 60s, with the backlash of the 70s and neoliberalism. I’m not sure it’s even as bad as that. I’m not sure the ´current crisis´ isn’t leftover economic angst from 2008 and freaking out over immigratuon of brown people.
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Re: FPJ 22 : BON, B'EN C'EST DÉJÀ FINI

Post #650 by Boring Choice #2 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:00 pm

Dog wrote:And ´morality’ isn’t religion. It’s morality. It exists independant of religion.


Isn't this part of your quote just an
affirmation which it holds as truths by virtue of having been asserted (often by appealing to authority).

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