Dog containment thread and random noises

And some artists..
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Retardé S
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #301 by Retardé S » Sun May 13, 2018 10:20 pm

Dog wrote:I mean, I’m sure she’s a wonderful collection of various life forms. Hope you did something nice for her, Retardez.


What? No I didn't

You said...

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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #302 by Slick Nick » Mon May 14, 2018 12:05 am

Dog wrote:
Retardé S wrote:That's what I said to my mom this morning, she cried.

Psh, what a crybaby.


Whatever, she doesn’t even exist in any conventional sense. The vast majority of the cells in her body don’t even contain her dna, just bacteria living in « her ».

:vince:


Stop corrupting the youth (réfardé) you monster!
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #303 by Susf » Mon May 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Offseason Shredder wrote:Slick Nick, you might like this page. Moscow underworld photos - http://www.artcoup.com/moscow/


huh

https://www.rt.com/uk/426596-sun-scary- ... ie-photos/



dear god. this was the only good pic anyways. fuck u british wankers at the Sun

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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #304 by Twitter bArt » Wed May 16, 2018 9:59 am

Throwback to when Fids was into black holes

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/health/f ... index.html
:mkbét::lr: :lr:

OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone

It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.

Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."

...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...

Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.


:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #305 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 10:28 am

Twitter bArt wrote:Throwback to when Fids was into black holes

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/health/f ... index.html


I’m still into black holes. Black holes and the big bang are our two blind spots, where we don’t have a full quantum gravity explanation. The entry and exit points of the universe. Maybe. :)

Speaking of which, in the news this week: potential progress on quantum gravity description of black holes. At greg’s old university: https://physicsworld.com/a/echoes-of-gr ... m-gravity/
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #306 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 10:44 am

Also, for Nicolai. Started looking at youtube vids for you, you unreading mens. Stumbled upon a collection from the Royal Institution (centuries old brit academy of science). Looks to have great stuff in there. Hours long layperson oriented talks by leading scientists on different subjects. Will watch more.

Watched this one yeasterday. Presentor is physicist and professor at Caltech. He basically says everything i’ve said in this thread, including a little feel good finale along the same lines of my « if you define yourself as physics, then you are part of what’s unfolding and not something apart from it » thingy. That seems to be the way to make peace with free will. Redefine what you are (it’s logically rigorous) or (easier) « pretend » you have free will at the macro level because, well, that’s how it feels and it’s a better way to go (ie. try to make a personal philosophy that is rational with goals you set out, keeping in mind that you are part of a whole).

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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #307 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 10:54 am

One of my pet theories on the intersect between morality and rationality is game theory. I’ve posted before, but I’m sure you guys didn’t read. So I’ll post again for you guys not to read. Reason, as I see it, is an analytical tool that ultimately serves as a means to get a goal. The goal is not set by objective reality (ie. the universe or god doesn’t give you one). So, reason is morally agnostic. What I think constrains it is game theory. The best outcomes for all players as a whole is cooperation. Cheating will give a player a temporary advantage until others stop cooperating and the everybody loses. I think game theory, applied to human interractions, explains alot of morality (which I simply see as rules and principles, both genetic and social in origin, for social living because that’s what we are....deeply social animals). « Good » is what is good for social living. It’s not what would be good if we were solitary animals. Our concept of good is shaped fundamentally from our social nature. Turns out, you can mathematically map out social interractions. Game theory. Cooperation is the best outcome for all. Cheating gets you short lived gains, but ultimately brings the system down for all.

Morality by mathematics.

:danson:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #308 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 10:55 am

Goddamit, Artie! You see what you’ve made me do again.

:why:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #309 by Boring Choice #2 » Wed May 16, 2018 11:54 am

Dog wrote:
Twitter bArt wrote:Throwback to when Fids was into black holes

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/health/f ... index.html


I’m still into black holes. Black holes and the big bang are our two blind spots, where we don’t have a full quantum gravity explanation. The entry and exit points of the universe. Maybe. :)

Speaking of which, in the news this week: potential progress on quantum gravity description of black holes. At greg’s old university: https://physicsworld.com/a/echoes-of-gr ... m-gravity/


my completely unsubstantiated theory is that the black hole condenses all the matter that goes into it and creates a super-dense object which causes a new big bang in a new dimension / universe, which then expands and forms new planets and stars and new black holes which condense matter into the next big bang/universe, etc.

our universe is just one of an infinite number of universes which has come along as a consequence of a previous black hole which condensed to form one of an infinite number of big bangs.

edit: apparently hawkins had a similar thought already. damn. there goes my honorary physics phd.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #310 by Macbeth » Wed May 16, 2018 12:28 pm

BUT WAS IT THE EGG OR THE CHICKEN ORIGINALLY????6?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #311 by Boring Choice #2 » Wed May 16, 2018 12:34 pm

eggs existed long before chickens ever did. the dinosaur that eventually evolved into a chicken was almost certainly hatched from an egg.

that is like the least controversial of the controversies that have ever existed.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #312 by Twitter bArt » Wed May 16, 2018 12:44 pm

Boring Choice #2 wrote:
Dog wrote:
Twitter bArt wrote:Throwback to when Fids was into black holes

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/health/f ... index.html


I’m still into black holes. Black holes and the big bang are our two blind spots, where we don’t have a full quantum gravity explanation. The entry and exit points of the universe. Maybe. :)

Speaking of which, in the news this week: potential progress on quantum gravity description of black holes. At greg’s old university: https://physicsworld.com/a/echoes-of-gr ... m-gravity/


my completely unsubstantiated theory is that the black hole condenses all the matter that goes into it and creates a super-dense object which causes a new big bang in a new dimension / universe, which then expands and forms new planets and stars and new black holes which condense matter into the next big bang/universe, etc.

our universe is just one of an infinite number of universes which has come along as a consequence of a previous black hole which condensed to form one of an infinite number of big bangs.

edit: apparently hawkins had a similar thought already. damn. there goes my honorary physics phd.



so somewhere out in the stratosphere there are more Dogs and Boring Accountants not posting about hockey on a hockey message board.

Fascinating
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #313 by Twitter bArt » Wed May 16, 2018 12:44 pm

Boring Choice #2 wrote:eggs existed long before chickens ever did. the dinosaur that eventually evolved into a chicken was almost certainly hatched from an egg.

that is like the least controversial of the controversies that have ever existed.



ummm where's the eggs come from
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #314 by Craig » Wed May 16, 2018 12:47 pm

Twitter bArt wrote:
Boring Choice #2 wrote:eggs existed long before chickens ever did. the dinosaur that eventually evolved into a chicken was almost certainly hatched from an egg.

that is like the least controversial of the controversies that have ever existed.



ummm where's the eggs come from


Dinosaurs and such.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #315 by Twitter bArt » Wed May 16, 2018 12:51 pm

so which came first dinosaur or the egg
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #316 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 1:35 pm

Boring Choice #2 wrote:
Dog wrote:
Twitter bArt wrote:Throwback to when Fids was into black holes

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/health/f ... index.html


I’m still into black holes. Black holes and the big bang are our two blind spots, where we don’t have a full quantum gravity explanation. The entry and exit points of the universe. Maybe. :)

Speaking of which, in the news this week: potential progress on quantum gravity description of black holes. At greg’s old university: https://physicsworld.com/a/echoes-of-gr ... m-gravity/


my completely unsubstantiated theory is that the black hole condenses all the matter that goes into it and creates a super-dense object which causes a new big bang in a new dimension / universe, which then expands and forms new planets and stars and new black holes which condense matter into the next big bang/universe, etc.

our universe is just one of an infinite number of universes which has come along as a consequence of a previous black hole which condensed to form one of an infinite number of big bangs.

edit: apparently hawkins had a similar thought already. damn. there goes my honorary physics phd.


That multiverse theory (not really a theory, as it’s not testable at present) is a leading idea. A finite or infinite multiverse of universes popping in and out of existance. I’m intrigued by potential links between quantum fluctuations at the micro level (particles popping in and out of existence seemingly randomly), quantum entanglement (particles « attached » at distance) and recent theories of entanglement being a contortion of spacetime. An idea I’ve heard and keep in my nogging is of black hole being our macro equivalent to quantum entanglement for another « bigger » dimension and our quantum fluctuations being black holes in « smaller » dimensions. We would then be in a black hole and spacetime would be the entanglement between particles. You then get an image of a finite or infinite multiverse with basically driven by probabilistic entangled quantum fluctuations.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #317 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 1:51 pm

Twitter bArt wrote:so which came first dinosaur or the egg


We don’t know what’s the ultimate cause or even if there is one. When looking for where the buck stops, tgere are two possibilities to me:

1. It’s random. We are accustomed to think of a mind causing stuff, but there may not be. A “primordial” mind is not more probable than a wholly secular explanation. Potential can be more fundamental (natural) than nothing. At the “base” you can have potential and potential sometimes will make our universe and you. May only make yours, may make many. Everything can potentially exist. Sometimes you get you in this universe. That seems counterintuitive because, again, in our macro world we are used to cause and effect and our perceptuon of volition (free minds) acting on the world. That, however, is an erroneous perception of our universe. Our universe is entirely probabilistic -it runs on probabilities with potential energy states restricted by other potential energy states on interraction. Giving rise to the quasi-stability of the macro world (but greg can still end up in Nepal in the next instant, just very unlikely because greg is made up of a huge number of particles interracting with potential energy states very heavily skewed towards greg staying put in the next instant).

2. The buck can stop at a mind. A mind is not what drives our universe, probability does. But a mind could have created our universe. Nothing hints towards that (and the probabilistic nature of our universe hints towards probability being fundamental) but it’s not impossible. We haven’t observed anything “outside” our universe. It’s possible it’s a primordial mind that sets it going. However, it’s not a mind in any of the existing religious sense. It would be a mind that set off, 15 billion years ago, a probabilistic chain reaction leading to you and, as entropy moves forward, the likely heat death of the universe.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #318 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 2:16 pm

We shouldn’t be rooting for one outcome over another. This shouldn’t be partisan. I think we should just try to get a decent laymens understanding of the current state of knowledge and believe what seems more likely given what we know. It will almost certainly be wrong. We are missing too many pieces. But we know enough to eliminate a bunch of potential explanations. It’s just about making best guesses based on reason and best evidence. And adapting as we learn new stuff. If tomorrow reputable publications start publishing what is believed to be evidence of some fundamental volition driving our universe, then I’ll start believing that. It’s not that I don’t want there to be a guiding mind. It’s that it’s nowhere to be seen and we’ve looked pretty deeply. It could be at the cause of the big bang 15 billion years ago. Maybe. But it seems more likely to that the probability that rules our universe also rules outside of it (but that’s just a guess). It could be that that there is nothing else « outside » our universe. It could be a mind that powered up his quantum computer and that mind could be primordial in some ontological sense. But, it would be very distant. The universe is very big and the big bang was a long time ago. That mind took one heck of a detour to make us. There may be a good reason for that. Or the good reason may be that there is no mind. If somebody wants to believe in a non interventionist big bang creating mind, I guess that’s fine. I think the probabilistic nature of our universe hints towards probability being fundamental, but there is no reasonnit should be. Bottom line, we have a decent sense from the big bang to now. Outside of it and whether there is anything, we have very little idea. We may be able to deduce stuff by studying black holes and the big bang (the first instants). Or that may forever remain inaccessible to us.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #319 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 2:16 pm

Why do I write so much? It’s like thinking out loud.

:why:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #320 by Twitter bArt » Wed May 16, 2018 3:09 pm

Good God I can't wait for Not's BBQ this year.
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #321 by Boring Choice #2 » Wed May 16, 2018 3:22 pm

Twitter bArt wrote:
so somewhere out in the stratosphere there are more Dogs and Boring Accountants not posting about hockey on a hockey message board.

Fascinating


I talk about hockey all the time... just not in the dog containment thread.

I have even talked hockey in the hockey threads here, even though I don't know much about the Habs other than their being shit. I tend to keep hockey talk to related hockey discussions.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #322 by clawfirst » Wed May 16, 2018 3:25 pm

Twitter bArt wrote:so which came first dinosaur or the egg

The fish.

Duh.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #323 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 3:32 pm

clawfirst wrote:
Twitter bArt wrote:so which came first dinosaur or the egg

The fish.

Duh.


I was gonna say. Keeping the egg internal is new(ish). We were all fishes and laid eggs. Of course, none of this has anything to do with the discussion. Sexual reproduction (as opposed to reproduction by cell division) is itself fairly new.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #324 by Macbeth » Wed May 16, 2018 3:32 pm

Why do I make fart movies again ?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #325 by clawfirst » Wed May 16, 2018 3:39 pm

Cause a good fart joke is like sitting down. We can all enjoy it.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #326 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 3:43 pm

Claw gets it all.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #327 by clawfirst » Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm

Not even close to all.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #328 by clawfirst » Wed May 16, 2018 3:52 pm

Day 8.

Clean
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #329 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 3:55 pm

clawfirst wrote:Not even close to all.


See, you get it!
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #330 by clawfirst » Wed May 16, 2018 3:57 pm

Smoking will be the last and most difficult.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #331 by Slick Nick » Wed May 16, 2018 7:11 pm

Dog wrote:Also, for Nicolai. Started looking at youtube vids for you, you unreading mens.


I'm not an unreading mens, I love podcasts and YT videos because I can do other stuff while listening. Often just play vids when I go to bed, helps me find some inner peace. Plus the brain takes less time to process sound vs image, so I'm just saving some of the very scarce resources that I have. I'm pretty sure I have some form of ADHD but I'm not going to drug myself and lose my soul like Mac and Mumu.

I've been listening to Jung's (audiobook) lately, fascinating stuff... it's not about particle spins though.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #332 by Slick Nick » Wed May 16, 2018 7:16 pm

Also, Nicolai with a C is the Romanian form. I would like to not to be associated with those peasants. :crossarms:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #333 by Retardé S » Wed May 16, 2018 7:47 pm

My first crush as an 8 year old spanish speaking panamanian-canadian immigrant was a romanian girl named Dorottya. I had no problems getting girls to smile at me in Panama, but in Canada, it was a different story. I tried to write a love letter in french and gave her a box of chocolates for St. Valentine's day; She ended up throwing out the letter without even reading it and took the chocolates.

Death to Romanians.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #334 by Slick Nick » Wed May 16, 2018 8:13 pm

I threw away a lot of love letters without reading them when I was a highschool cutie. I remember one particular time the poor girl strated crying painfully. I never meant to do harm, in reality I was really shy and didn’t know how to deal with all the unwanted attention. I just wanted to be left alone. It was quite terrible, I would get a haircut and all the girls would start talking about it, felt a lot of pressure tbh.

Today I kinda miss it, go figure.

So don’t judge the girl, it could have been emotinal immaturity.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #335 by clawfirst » Wed May 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Somewhere a nj broad is cutting himself
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #336 by AD » Wed May 16, 2018 8:29 pm

I'm so sad guys. I can't break another heart. It's really hard. It takes me days and days to come up with the courage to tell these girls I don't want a relationship.

And they all cry...
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #337 by AD » Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm

Why must they always cry...
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #338 by Retardé S » Wed May 16, 2018 8:34 pm

AD wrote:Why must they always cry...

Because they're girls
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #339 by AD » Wed May 16, 2018 8:41 pm

Why can't they be more like me.. cynical hopeless promiscuous shells of humans trying to drown their sorrows in meaningless sexual contacts in an attempt to dull the pain of their dead souls?

Hunh?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #340 by clawfirst » Wed May 16, 2018 8:43 pm

Those ones are doing porn/peeling. You know what to do
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #341 by Retardé S » Wed May 16, 2018 8:43 pm

Slick Nick wrote:I threw away a lot of love letters without reading them when I was a highschool cutie. I remember one particular time the poor girl strated crying painfully. I never meant to do harm, in reality I was really shy and didn’t know how to deal with all the unwanted attention. I just wanted to be left alone. It was quite terrible, I would get a haircut and all the girls would start talking about it, felt a lot of pressure tbh.

Today I kinda miss it, go figure.

So don’t judge the girl, it could have been emotinal immaturity.


I'm not judging the girl, I'm judging her nationality. :smuglanne:

Kidding aside, I added her on facebook about 15 years later and she turned out gorgeous. Solid 8/10.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #342 by TittiesNBeer » Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 pm

AD wrote:Why must they always cry...


Happens a lot with 12 year old girls
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #343 by Retardé S » Wed May 16, 2018 8:47 pm

AD wrote:Why can't they be more like me.. cynical hopeless promiscuous shells of humans trying to drown their sorrows in meaningless sexual contacts in an attempt to dull the pain of their dead souls?

Hunh?


There's plenty of those around nanners, perhaps you're not looking in the right age range?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #344 by Retardé S » Wed May 16, 2018 8:47 pm

AD wrote:Why can't they be more like me.. cynical hopeless promiscuous shells of humans trying to drown their sorrows in meaningless sexual contacts in an attempt to dull the pain of their dead souls?

Hunh?


There's plenty of those around nanners, perhaps you're not looking in the right age range?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #345 by Slick Nick » Wed May 16, 2018 8:49 pm

AD wrote:Why can't they be more like me.. cynical hopeless promiscuous shells of humans trying to drown their sorrows in meaningless sexual contacts in an attempt to dull the pain of their dead souls?

Hunh?


Maybe one day you will think you've met the one, and she'll tell you to jagg off cause she only wanted casual sex....
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #346 by Slick Nick » Wed May 16, 2018 8:50 pm

Retardé S wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:I threw away a lot of love letters without reading them when I was a highschool cutie. I remember one particular time the poor girl strated crying painfully. I never meant to do harm, in reality I was really shy and didn’t know how to deal with all the unwanted attention. I just wanted to be left alone. It was quite terrible, I would get a haircut and all the girls would start talking about it, felt a lot of pressure tbh.

Today I kinda miss it, go figure.

So don’t judge the girl, it could have been emotinal immaturity.


I'm not judging the girl, I'm judging her nationality. :smuglanne:

Kidding aside, I added her on facebook about 15 years later and she turned out gorgeous. Solid 8/10.



Yesh, Romanian girls are pretty hot... all of central Europe mass produces hotties.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #347 by AD » Wed May 16, 2018 8:51 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:
AD wrote:Why must they always cry...


Happens a lot with 12 year old girls


At one point, that joke is gonna get old...















... unlike the girls I'm dating! :pacman:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #348 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 9:53 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:Also, for Nicolai. Started looking at youtube vids for you, you unreading mens.


I'm not an unreading mens, I love podcasts and YT videos because I can do other stuff while listening. Often just play vids when I go to bed, helps me find some inner peace. Plus the brain takes less time to process sound vs image, so I'm just saving some of the very scarce resources that I have. I'm pretty sure I have some form of ADHD but I'm not going to drug myself and lose my soul like Mac and Mumu.

I've been listening to Jung's (audiobook) lately, fascinating stuff... it's not about particle spins though.


We are a board of mens with potential mild add and beaker.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #349 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 9:57 pm

AD wrote:
TittiesNBeer wrote:
AD wrote:Why must they always cry...


Happens a lot with 12 year old girls


At one point, that joke is gonna get old...















... unlike the girls I'm dating! :pacman:


You date girls that won’t get old?

:stare:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #350 by Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 9:58 pm

And, lastly, « I wouldn’t be racist if I was Georgian/Panamanian ».

/greg

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