Name Dog's Dog Thread

And some artists..
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2151 by Slick Nick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:38 am

AD can fuck a big titted Romanian pleb out of pauvrety? I can't see her going for lower classes anymore... she got the very tits.. would suspect could be easily subverted into your stuff.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2152 by Slick Nick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:27 am

Mufasa wrote:I see a shrink because I have you.


I hope this guy you pay gives you better advice than 20 of your friends that do it for free... I mean, he has a diploma in reading and everythinng. A real science man.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2153 by Ismellofhockey » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:45 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Mufasa wrote:I see a shrink because I have you.


I hope this guy you pay gives you better advice than 20 of your friends that do it for free... I mean, he has a diploma in reading and everythinng. A real science man.


Precisely the Mumus. Why pay someone to tell you you're grotesque and insufferable, when we berate you with this every day?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2154 by Slick Nick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:57 am

Ismellofhockey wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Mufasa wrote:I see a shrink because I have you.


I hope this guy you pay gives you better advice than 20 of your friends that do it for free... I mean, he has a diploma in reading and everythinng. A real science man.


Precisely Mumus. Why pay someone to tell you you're grotesque and insufferable, when we berate you with this every day?


He's not even autisitic... after two expensive tests.............. I mean, you ever seen mu? Why would you think he austic to begin with? I mean he's a cunt sometimes, but his shrink has to be playing the long game to tell him he has asburgers.

Just talk to us mu
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2155 by Ismellofhockey » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:03 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Ismellofhockey wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
I hope this guy you pay gives you better advice than 20 of your friends that do it for free... I mean, he has a diploma in reading and everythinng. A real science man.


Precisely Mumus. Why pay someone to tell you you're grotesque and insufferable, when we berate you with this every day?


He's not even autisitic... after two expensive tests.............. I mean, you ever seen mu? Why would you think he austic to begin with? I mean he's a cunt sometimes, but his shrink has to be playing the long game to tell him he has asburgers.

Just talk to us mu


The cuntastic is strong in all of us. It's conceited that the Mumus would think he has us beat.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2156 by Mufasa » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:51 am

My shrink is not charging me money, he's a man of culture.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2157 by AD » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:48 am

Romanian?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2158 by Dog » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:38 am

AD wrote:Romanian?


Italo-Slav.

:crossarms:
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2159 by AD » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:56 am

I did a Sri Lanki this week. That doesn't count?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2160 by Slick Nick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:37 pm

AD wrote:Romanian?


I swear she's not a gypsy.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2161 by Dog » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:51 pm

Are we still talking about Mumu’s shrink?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2162 by clawfirst » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:57 pm

I dont think i could trust a mind shrinker that isnt a woman.

I wouldnt trust the woman as a general rule. but at least i may believe that they believe talking about things changes anything.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2163 by Slick Nick » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:57 pm

Dog wrote:Are we still talking about Mumu’s shrink?


If you don't pay a shrink, he's not a shrink...
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2164 by AD » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:33 pm

She
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2165 by Macbeth » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:16 pm

I find it very hard to stick around, bruvs.

Very hard.

:(
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2166 by Mufasa » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:35 pm

Macbeth wrote:I find it very hard to stick around, bruvs.

Very hard.

:(


JUST DONT AND...

































LEAVE US FOR GOOD











:crossarms:
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2167 by AD » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:11 pm

Macbeth wrote:I find it very hard to stick around, bruvs.

Very hard.

:(


Just get "into" it and shut up.

Also. Start GDTs. And shut up.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2168 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:41 pm

Macbeth wrote:I find it very hard to stick around, bruvs.

Very hard.

:(


Just pop by while you're taking a shit. : )
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2169 by Retardé S » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Macbeth wrote:I find it very hard to stick around, bruvs.

Very hard.

:(

T'as pas besoin de revenir si ça te chatouille pas dans l'cul bruv.

On t'aime pareil.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2170 by Retardé S » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:59 pm

AD wrote:I did a Sri Lanki this week. That doesn't count?

Did she smell
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2171 by AD » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:02 pm

More than Mac and Craig's wife that for sure
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2172 by MP » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:38 pm

Retardé S wrote:
AD wrote:I did a Sri Lanki this week. That doesn't count?

Did she smell

Are you asking if she had a nose?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2173 by chicpea » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:17 pm

Macbeth wrote:I find it very hard to stick around, bruvs.

Very hard.

:(


Swing on by the private board and read my poems about smashing opiods into my gums with a tin hammer.

viewforum.php?f=58
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2174 by vonbonds » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:32 pm

Shawnathan Horcoff wrote:
Macbeth wrote:I find it very hard to stick around, bruvs.

Very hard.

:(


Just pop by while you're taking a shit. : )

He better not steal my schtick
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2175 by Slick Nick » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:39 pm

A Famous Argument Against Free Will Has Been Debunked
For decades, a landmark brain study fed speculation about whether we control our own actions. It seems to have made a classic mistake.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... al/597736/

Dog completely, utterly and permanently BTFO

Insulte à l'injure, the scientist got the hint from stock market meme lines.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2176 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:40 am

You’re kidding, right? A clickbait style 2019 article presenting a 2012 study as ‘revolutionary news’?

Egging on the ole dog, are you?

Yes?

Ok, sure, I’ll bite!

The 2012 study was already featured in just about everything I’ve read on this subject. It doesn’t confirm or infirm anything. Basically, it casts doubt on what exactly the “pre consciousness of a decision” neural activity is. Either the decision already unfolding (per Libet’s interpretation) or random neural activity that coalesces on “decision time” roughly around the time conscious awareness. Great, neither really mean much for “free will” and, as an aside, there are multiple other studies where, for example, a researcher zaps a part of the brain associated with an action, the person does the action in response to a stimuli and is convinced their had “freely” decided to do make that choice. Ditto when repeated with the person again thinking “they” “freely” chose that action.

Anywho, this whole thing, as briefly implied towards the end of the article, is a problem of definition. The article you linked itself contains the confusing mixing of terms.

Are “you” in charge of “your” decisions?

Baked into that question is a dichotomy between “you” and “your”. “You”, presumably, being some lesser and included “volational” thing that controls broader you (the body). And that thing being something other than the synapses of the brain arranged and operating per genes expressed in and interracting in a given environment. Cause, if that’s what we are referring to, then what the heck are we talking about. No one is doubting that. If volition means the extremely complex ways in which a given configuration interacts with its environment, then sure.

But the “little you”, lets call it, seems to refer to something else. Something not quite so mechanical. Somwthing outside the laws of physics that govern everything else in the universe. What could that be? Consciousness? Consciousness, defined as that subjective feeling of experience we sometimes get, certainly exists. But, it is very much also the product of neural interractions. Basically, when novel or demanding stimuli demands greater processing power, when different brain regions are exchanging info to make sense of a situation -you get that feeling. Especially, but not exclusively, when the prefrontal cortex is in heavier exchange with sensory interpretation regions of the brain. The analogy I like best is of consciousness as a board room. Where several brain regions report their findings and common ground is sought. It’s a meeting place. This is supported by many neuroimaging studies showing consciousness emerging when dense neural nodes are activated. Importantly, this consciousness is not always on. It’s intensity goes up and down like if controlled by a dimmer. When things are routine, we space out and make complex actions and decisions without much conscious awareness. Take driving for example. Introduce something novel requiring more brain regions to shimmy in, including the more recent and logical pre-frontal correx, and you get a more adapted, novel response -the process also inducing consciousness to varying degrees. In a real sense there is volition, in the aense of a complex machine adapting to its environment. Not so much if we rather mean that a little thing operating outside of physics (ie. free from both randomness or cause and effect) decides things “freely” (whatever that means, it makes no sense to me).

I feel that none of this is diminishing in any way. Opposition to it seems more like that rejecting that the earth is not the center of the universe or that humans are not the result of evolution from other organisms going back to primordial bacteria. Now we cling to some fuzzy notion of a little “free” guy or gal pulling the neural levers and whatnot. Utter nonesense. What we actually are is actually far more interesting. We are not appart from everything else. Just a given configuration of it. We are, essentially, I think, interpreting machine. Things whereby the universe experiences and itself. Now, we have to be careful not to just displace a “free will” to the universe. I mean none of that. Rather, I mean, that we are what we are -interacting nodes of energy (which ultimately is ‘doing potential’) that developed the ability for delving into its very nature. We’re kind of the forefront of creation -as far we know. Humans are interesting. Other animals are likely to have some more rudimentary form of self consciousness, but humans are like at the threshold of really getting it. Our consciousness is, I think, “coming on” -sufficiently evolved to be on some of the time and therefore to make some “sense” of its environment. Basically, we are a point where the universe becomes self conscious. While we have to be careful not to equate self consciousness with “free will”, what it is that we are is phenomenon developing ability to subjectively experience itself. No need to be “outside the system” (ie. “free”) for that to be cool. In fact, I think it’s cooler to be part and parcel of the system. In any event, “outside/free” just pushes back the same question -what is that outside/free entity? What rules govern it? What is it made of? I find our current universe, already offers a compelling answer at the quantum level -we are essentially actualized potential. A thing that flips from unlimited but unactualized to limited but actualized. To me that makes immense sense. Experiencing everything at once (as in the base state of quantum superposition) necessarily means undifferentiated. Within that state, however, mutually exclusive interactions can, by a process of self delimitation (of exclusion from rest), have defined experiences in relativity to “outside” phenomena.

Makes sense?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2177 by AD » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:44 am

Uhm.. we all got that pretty much immediately from reading the first 5 paragraphs of the article, doggo.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2178 by Craig » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:46 am

Paragraphs? Try words.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2179 by Slick Nick » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:50 am

They mad.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2180 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:52 am

AD wrote:Uhm.. we all got that pretty much immediately from reading the first 5 paragraphs of the article, doggo.


I know, I’m dogsplaining to Nick.

Because Nick want to be free and concrete and solid and independent and exist forever or be depressed. Don’t ask “which Nick” as Nick does not think that the fact that “he” constantly evolves and changes makes that question moot to a good extent and already points him towards the bigger answer.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2181 by Slick Nick » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:18 pm

Dog wrote:I feel that none of this is diminishing in any way. Opposition to it seems more like that rejecting that the earth is not the center of the universe or that humans are not the result of evolution from other organisms going back to primordial bacteria. Now we cling to some fuzzy notion of a little “free” guy or gal pulling the neural levers and whatnot. Utter nonesense. What we actually are is actually far more interesting. We are not appart from everything else. Just a given configuration of it. We are, essentially, I think, interpreting machine. Things whereby the universe experiences and itself. Now, we have to be careful not to just displace a “free will” to the universe. I mean none of that. Rather, I mean, that we are what we are -interacting nodes of energy (which ultimately is ‘doing potential’) that developed the ability for delving into its very nature. We’re kind of the forefront of creation -as far we know. Humans are interesting. Other animals are likely to have some more rudimentary form of self consciousness, but humans are like at the threshold of really getting it. Our consciousness is, I think, “coming on” -sufficiently evolved to be on some of the time and therefore to make some “sense” of its environment. Basically, we are a point where the universe becomes self conscious. While we have to be careful not to equate self consciousness with “free will”, what it is that we are is phenomenon developing ability to subjectively experience itself. No need to be “outside the system” (ie. “free”) for that to be cool. In fact, I think it’s cooler to be part and parcel of the system. In any event, “outside/free” just pushes back the same question -what is that outside/free entity? What rules govern it? What is it made of? I find our current universe, already offers a compelling answer at the quantum level -we are essentially actualized potential. A thing that flips from unlimited but unactualized to limited but actualized. To me that makes immense sense. Experiencing everything at once (as in the base state of quantum superposition) necessarily means undifferentiated. Within that state, however, mutually exclusive interactions can, by a process of self delimitation (of exclusion from rest), have defined experiences in relativity to “outside” phenomena.

Makes sense?


It didn't make sense last year, why would it subitly start making sense today? :rolleyes:
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2182 by Ismellofhockey » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:53 pm

Dog wrote:You’re kidding, right? A clickbait style 2019 article presenting a 2012 study as ‘revolutionary news’?

Egging on the ole dog, are you?

Yes?

Ok, sure, I’ll bite!

The 2012 study was already featured in just about everything I’ve read on this subject. It doesn’t confirm or infirm anything. Basically, it casts doubt on what exactly the “pre consciousness of a decision” neural activity is. Either the decision already unfolding (per Libet’s interpretation) or random neural activity that coalesces on “decision time” roughly around the time conscious awareness. Great, neither really mean much for “free will” and, as an aside, there are multiple other studies where, for example, a researcher zaps a part of the brain associated with an action, the person does the action in response to a stimuli and is convinced their had “freely” decided to do make that choice. Ditto when repeated with the person again thinking “they” “freely” chose that action.

Anywho, this whole thing, as briefly implied towards the end of the article, is a problem of definition. The article you linked itself contains the confusing mixing of terms.

Are “you” in charge of “your” decisions?

Baked into that question is a dichotomy between “you” and “your”. “You”, presumably, being some lesser and included “volational” thing that controls broader you (the body). And that thing being something other than the synapses of the brain arranged and operating per genes expressed in and interracting in a given environment. Cause, if that’s what we are referring to, then what the heck are we talking about. No one is doubting that. If volition means the extremely complex ways in which a given configuration interacts with its environment, then sure.

But the “little you”, lets call it, seems to refer to something else. Something not quite so mechanical. Somwthing outside the laws of physics that govern everything else in the universe. What could that be? Consciousness? Consciousness, defined as that subjective feeling of experience we sometimes get, certainly exists. But, it is very much also the product of neural interractions. Basically, when novel or demanding stimuli demands greater processing power, when different brain regions are exchanging info to make sense of a situation -you get that feeling. Especially, but not exclusively, when the prefrontal cortex is in heavier exchange with sensory interpretation regions of the brain. The analogy I like best is of consciousness as a board room. Where several brain regions report their findings and common ground is sought. It’s a meeting place. This is supported by many neuroimaging studies showing consciousness emerging when dense neural nodes are activated. Importantly, this consciousness is not always on. It’s intensity goes up and down like if controlled by a dimmer. When things are routine, we space out and make complex actions and decisions without much conscious awareness. Take driving for example. Introduce something novel requiring more brain regions to shimmy in, including the more recent and logical pre-frontal correx, and you get a more adapted, novel response -the process also inducing consciousness to varying degrees. In a real sense there is volition, in the aense of a complex machine adapting to its environment. Not so much if we rather mean that a little thing operating outside of physics (ie. free from both randomness or cause and effect) decides things “freely” (whatever that means, it makes no sense to me).

I feel that none of this is diminishing in any way. Opposition to it seems more like that rejecting that the earth is not the center of the universe or that humans are not the result of evolution from other organisms going back to primordial bacteria. Now we cling to some fuzzy notion of a little “free” guy or gal pulling the neural levers and whatnot. Utter nonesense. What we actually are is actually far more interesting. We are not appart from everything else. Just a given configuration of it. We are, essentially, I think, interpreting machine. Things whereby the universe experiences and itself. Now, we have to be careful not to just displace a “free will” to the universe. I mean none of that. Rather, I mean, that we are what we are -interacting nodes of energy (which ultimately is ‘doing potential’) that developed the ability for delving into its very nature. We’re kind of the forefront of creation -as far we know. Humans are interesting. Other animals are likely to have some more rudimentary form of self consciousness, but humans are like at the threshold of really getting it. Our consciousness is, I think, “coming on” -sufficiently evolved to be on some of the time and therefore to make some “sense” of its environment. Basically, we are a point where the universe becomes self conscious. While we have to be careful not to equate self consciousness with “free will”, what it is that we are is phenomenon developing ability to subjectively experience itself. No need to be “outside the system” (ie. “free”) for that to be cool. In fact, I think it’s cooler to be part and parcel of the system. In any event, “outside/free” just pushes back the same question -what is that outside/free entity? What rules govern it? What is it made of? I find our current universe, already offers a compelling answer at the quantum level -we are essentially actualized potential. A thing that flips from unlimited but unactualized to limited but actualized. To me that makes immense sense. Experiencing everything at once (as in the base state of quantum superposition) necessarily means undifferentiated. Within that state, however, mutually exclusive interactions can, by a process of self delimitation (of exclusion from rest), have defined experiences in relativity to “outside” phenomena.

Makes sense?


Not having free will implies we are not conscious. If we can't understand where our own decisions come from, how can we be fully conscious of ourselves and of the universe we are a part of?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2183 by mayoradamwest » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Fart.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2184 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:06 pm

.
















































































































































Image
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2185 by Retardé S » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:11 pm

Ever just wake up, and look forward to eating breakfast and not think about all this shit boys?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2186 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Ismellofhockey wrote:Not having free will implies we are not conscious. If we can't understand where our own decisions come from, how can we be fully conscious of ourselves and of the universe we are a part of?


Huh?

Definitions, people. Consciousness is a subjective ‘feeling of experiencing’ something. We have that for some decisions/actions/experiences but not for most. Most of our processes (including internal regulation and interpretation ans response to external stimuli) are outside our consciousness. For example, are you aware that what you see is not a passive representation of what is out there (like a photo would be). Our brains, outside our consciousness, makes most of it up with predictions based on sensory input and past experiences. For example, your eyes are made weird. Nerves run out the middle of your retina into your brain. There is no light capturing cells smack in the middle of your eyes. You see a black spot in the middle of everything? No? Why? Your brain makes a guess at what’s there and that’s the image you get. Ever drive a car and suddenly come to after driving (making turns and whatnot) for a while? You certainly were making decisions, even complex ones, without conscious awareness. Ever meditate? As you sit there and calm your mind you can quite easily “observe” thoughts running through your mind. Ditto with emotions and feelings. They come from nowhere and then go and others follow. “You” have no control over them. All you can do is watch. And even that -holding the intention to watch- is very difficult to hold, because you just get sucked into your thoughts and become “associated/identified” with them. When you snap out of it, you can clearly see the contrast between the moments you consciously observe and moments where you get sucked in and think you ‘were’ those thought processes.

The very idea that something, anything, can operate in a free (which I can only take to mean outside of randomness or cause and effect) is nonsensical to me. What is something that is not random and not moored to prior cause? What exactly is this “free”? We are certainly extremely complex machines, but we don’t exist outside physics.

Still don’t believe me? Let me poke a stick in your brain and by changing the physical configuration completely change “you”.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2187 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:22 pm

This is like so obvious, people. Come on!

:why:
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2188 by Mufasa » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:35 pm

You don't need to understand where our actions come from, we just have to experience it as free will. But determinism doesn't prevent you from experiencing life with a free spirit who uses his will to moderate his own pulsions. So the question of free will is not really interesting to me, it's an old christian debate that doesn't make much sense nowadays, except maybe for AI and new forms of intelligence to come.

(Haven't read the dawg, don't intend to either.)
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2189 by TittiesNBeer » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:39 pm

Im using my free will not to read this bullshit.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2190 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:40 pm

Mufasa wrote:You don't need to understand where our actions come from, we just have to experience it as free will. But determinism doesn't prevent you from experiencing life with a free spirit who uses his will to moderate his own pulsions. So the question of free will is not really interesting to me, it's an old christian debate that doesn't make much sense nowadays, except maybe for AI and new forms of intelligence to come.

(Haven't read the dawg, don't intend to either.)


That’s the position most philosophers of mind seem to take. A ‘soft dualism’. Basically, yeah sure there is no “free” will, but we don’t know the future and have to navigate the world. So, to us, it’s exactly “as if” we had it. Take what you are and try your best, sorta thing.

I’m quite comfortable and agree with that.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2191 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:41 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:Im using my free will not to read this bullshit.


Naw man, that’s just a preconditioned response to a given situation.

(As is this).

:-)
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2192 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:00 pm

A thing I like to think about in this notion of a self is the impact of cultural transmission/evolution. We all know of physical evolution through mutating genes, but genes aren’t deterministic. Same genes will be given wildly different expressions in given environments and further the relatively new (last decade or so) discovery of epigenetics -that certain gene mutations, even permanent ones, even onces that can then be passed on to offspring, can be cause by environment. As in you had a horrible childhood and your genes were given a permanent expression in response to that (perhaps you are a more anxious, reactive type) and that change can be passed down to furture generations.

Now, classical ‘physical’ mutations take a long time to have a real effect. Culture is much more malleable. Given neuroplasticity (even outside longer lasting epigenetic changes to genes), just the way that brains wires up -experiences, things learned CHANGE the physical wiring of our brains. The thing constantly adapts and morphs to deal with the environment.

Now, say I’m a teacher of some sort. Say I transmit to you something new that you did not know and you now know. I changed your brain. Physically. It’s now different. Neural pathways changed. Next time you come across something and the changed pathways are activated, you will react differently. ‘I’ changed ‘you’. Said differently, ‘you’ are no longer the same ‘you’. ‘You’ now incorporates a part of ‘me’. I infected you. :-)

I like to think of humans this way. Information treatment and transferring machines. Mutually affecting and shaping each other-very much per a Bayesian logic updating prior beliefs per new imput on a weighted basing. Nobody has it all, but this game of ‘refinement’ narrows down possibilities. Until you get to a final answer, at which time it gets absorbed by all entities and history ends. As it did in 1990.

:danson:
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2193 by Ismellofhockey » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:28 pm

Dog wrote:
Ismellofhockey wrote:Not having free will implies we are not conscious. If we can't understand where our own decisions come from, how can we be fully conscious of ourselves and of the universe we are a part of?


Huh?

Definitions, people. Consciousness is a subjective ‘feeling of experiencing’ something. We have that for some decisions/actions/experiences but not for most. Most of our processes (including internal regulation and interpretation ans response to external stimuli) are outside our consciousness. For example, are you aware that what you see is not a passive representation of what is out there (like a photo would be). Our brains, outside our consciousness, makes most of it up with predictions based on sensory input and past experiences. For example, your eyes are made weird. Nerves run out the middle of your retina into your brain. There is no light capturing cells smack in the middle of your eyes. You see a black spot in the middle of everything? No? Why? Your brain makes a guess at what’s there and that’s the image you get. Ever drive a car and suddenly come to after driving (making turns and whatnot) for a while? You certainly were making decisions, even complex ones, without conscious awareness. Ever meditate? As you sit there and calm your mind you can quite easily “observe” thoughts running through your mind. Ditto with emotions and feelings. They come from nowhere and then go and others follow. “You” have no control over them. All you can do is watch. And even that -holding the intention to watch- is very difficult to hold, because you just get sucked into your thoughts and become “associated/identified” with them. When you snap out of it, you can clearly see the contrast between the moments you consciously observe and moments where you get sucked in and think you ‘were’ those thought processes.

The very idea that something, anything, can operate in a free (which I can only take to mean outside of randomness or cause and effect) is nonsensical to me. What is something that is not random and not moored to prior cause? What exactly is this “free”? We are certainly extremely complex machines, but we don’t exist outside physics.

Still don’t believe me? Let me poke a stick in your brain and by changing the physical configuration completely change “you”.


No, I know all that Dog. What I mean is that if we don't have free will and yet still make non-random decisions, then there is something controlling us that is outside of us. Because if our decisions are basically the sum of past experiences pushing us in one direction or another and modulated by our emotional state, that is still free will, right? That is still something we can analyze and change. So then if we don't have free will, it is because this decision process escapes not only our superficial consciousness, but also our pre-consciousness or subconscious. It is outside of us. If it is, then we can't grasp an essential component of our "being". So are we fully conscious?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2194 by Mufasa » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:29 pm

Retardé S wrote:Ever just wake up, and look forward to eating breakfast and not think about all this shit boys?


Do you?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2195 by Retardé S » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:44 pm

Mufasa wrote:
Retardé S wrote:Ever just wake up, and look forward to eating breakfast and not think about all this shit boys?


Do you?

In a manic state, yes.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2196 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:51 pm

Ismellofhockey wrote:
Dog wrote:
Ismellofhockey wrote:Not having free will implies we are not conscious. If we can't understand where our own decisions come from, how can we be fully conscious of ourselves and of the universe we are a part of?


Huh?

Definitions, people. Consciousness is a subjective ‘feeling of experiencing’ something. We have that for some decisions/actions/experiences but not for most. Most of our processes (including internal regulation and interpretation ans response to external stimuli) are outside our consciousness. For example, are you aware that what you see is not a passive representation of what is out there (like a photo would be). Our brains, outside our consciousness, makes most of it up with predictions based on sensory input and past experiences. For example, your eyes are made weird. Nerves run out the middle of your retina into your brain. There is no light capturing cells smack in the middle of your eyes. You see a black spot in the middle of everything? No? Why? Your brain makes a guess at what’s there and that’s the image you get. Ever drive a car and suddenly come to after driving (making turns and whatnot) for a while? You certainly were making decisions, even complex ones, without conscious awareness. Ever meditate? As you sit there and calm your mind you can quite easily “observe” thoughts running through your mind. Ditto with emotions and feelings. They come from nowhere and then go and others follow. “You” have no control over them. All you can do is watch. And even that -holding the intention to watch- is very difficult to hold, because you just get sucked into your thoughts and become “associated/identified” with them. When you snap out of it, you can clearly see the contrast between the moments you consciously observe and moments where you get sucked in and think you ‘were’ those thought processes.

The very idea that something, anything, can operate in a free (which I can only take to mean outside of randomness or cause and effect) is nonsensical to me. What is something that is not random and not moored to prior cause? What exactly is this “free”? We are certainly extremely complex machines, but we don’t exist outside physics.

Still don’t believe me? Let me poke a stick in your brain and by changing the physical configuration completely change “you”.


No, I know all that Dog. What I mean is that if we don't have free will and yet still make non-random decisions, then there is something controlling us that is outside of us. Because if our decisions are basically the sum of past experiences pushing us in one direction or another and modulated by our emotional state, that is still free will, right? That is still something we can analyze and change. So then if we don't have free will, it is because this decision process escapes not only our superficial consciousness, but also our pre-consciousness or subconscious. It is outside of us. If it is, then we can't grasp an essential component of our "being". So are we fully conscious?


We can certainly be aware of internal or external mechanisms (even if that itself is a mechanism). Also, by being ‘observant’, ‘you’ can actually improve pattern recognition and improve pre-frontal cortex connections with other brain parts -basically, you can become more ‘self controlled’ and a better decision maker, which, I think, means, neurologically, that pathways for ‘mulling shit over efficiently’ can improve. I think meditation is good training for this -it basically improves brain interconnectedness and pre-frontal communication (both ways) with other parts. Makes you more aware (of self and exterior), which -since awareness or consciousness is the result of dense neural nodes, ie. where several regions interconnect- basically means you can benefit from more input and harmonization from different parts. The ‘board room’, as it were, holds a few more meetings where department heads can share leading to more informed decisions.

There is still no ‘free’ in there -if by free we mean operating outside cause and effect or randomness (which both imply ‘external’ causation). However, we certainly have ‘will’. We can decide shit and act. As can most other animals, but I digress. Humans basically have more integrated computation systems -like way more than those stupid iguanas.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2197 by Dog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:00 pm

Dog wrote:which both imply ‘external’ causation


Which itself I think is important to mull over some more. That external/internal distinction is quite arbitrary. Internal conditions are shaped by external conditions and vice-versa. It’s open thermodynamic systems interacting. Out mixes with in and vice versa, until equilibrium is reached (at which point they become identical). In the meantime (ie. before the heat death of the universe in countless trillions of years ;), you have systems with varying degrees of similarities in the average energy states of its constating particles interracting and affecting one another.

Yes?
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2198 by Ismellofhockey » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:05 pm

OK, in that case I agree that we have little or no "free" will, but we do exert a lot more control over it than those bloody iguanas.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2199 by AD » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:05 pm

Retardé S wrote:Ever just wake up, and look forward to eating breakfast and not think about all this shit boys?


Thats called being 14.
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Re: Name Dog's Dog Thread

Post #2200 by AD » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:06 pm

Ismellofhockey wrote:OK, in that case I agree that we have little or no "free" will, but we do exert a lot more control over it than those bloody iguanas.


We exert just as much control over it than a paramecea.

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