Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19851 by Dog » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:42 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:I think you have to call it by name to address it. If anything, I’ve found Obama too restrained up until the end of his second mandate. Too bad the justice department couldn’t continue under Sessions the work it had begun.


So to you it's worse when an innocent black man gets shot vs an innocent white man?


Non.

I don’t subscribe to your logic. Obama speaking out in relatively restrained terms = killing cops. You have a problem of causality there. You can flip it any which way you want. Cops that kill black men too easily = cops get killed. Poverty and health problems in aggressive young men = cops get killed. You take it as a given that cops were killed because of an Obama sentence or two. That it would not have happened otherwise. Worse, that victims of abuse should not be defended publicly because, hey, who knows what might happen. If some loony actress shoots some Hollywood producer, is it the fault of those who spoke out against legitimate abuse? Is that how it goes? Take it on the chin and shut up because who knows what may happen if people start speaking out?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19852 by Dog » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:46 pm

Nick, I love you, but you realize you’re having the exact same reflex as people have about just about any social change. Women voting? Freeing slaves? Allow Chinamens to immigrate? It will be the end of the world as we know it! Heck even pressing for those may lead to trouble. Best they just accept their lot in life or press only in the most moderate of terms where it never gets addressed.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19853 by Slick Nick » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:05 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:I think you have to call it by name to address it. If anything, I’ve found Obama too restrained up until the end of his second mandate. Too bad the justice department couldn’t continue under Sessions the work it had begun.


So to you it's worse when an innocent black man gets shot vs an innocent white man?


Non.

I don’t subscribe to your logic. Obama speaking out in relatively restrained terms = killing cops. You have a problem of causality there. You can flip it any which way you want. Cops that kill black men too easily = cops get killed. Poverty and health problems in aggressive young men = cops get killed. You take it as a given that cops were killed because of an Obama sentence or two. That it would not have happened otherwise. Worse, that victims of abuse should not be defended publicly because, hey, who knows what might happen. If some loony actress shoots some Hollywood producer, is it the fault of those who spoke out against legitimate abuse? Is that how it goes? Take it on the chin and shut up because who knows what may happen if people start speaking out?


You think it makes no sense to believe that Obama's comments, BLM movement, might have had influence on black youth's view of police officers? I believe that it did, we'll never know.. pure speculation on both sides. As for your example, it's an individual vs community things, hardly applicable IMO. If there was a problem with sexual abuse for both women and men, and the president who happens to be a woman would say something on the lines of "sexual assault of women has to stop" I would think it's irresponsible as well.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19854 by Slick Nick » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:09 pm

Dog wrote:Nick, I love you, but you realize you’re having the exact same reflex as people have about just about any social change. Women voting? Freeing slaves? Allow Chinamens to immigrate? It will be the end of the world as we know it! Heck even pressing for those may lead to trouble. Best they just accept their lot in life or press only in the most moderate of terms where it never gets addressed.


How am I refractory to change? Am I against less police brutality against black people? Am I against equal rights for women?

I'm against young women being brainwashed into thinking that if I hold a door for them in the metro it is a microagression. I'm against black kids reacting in a frustrated way when dealing with a police officer.. you really don't get my point.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19855 by Dog » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:18 pm

The difference between your position and mine is that I don’t think you really believe that there is especially a problem of police abuse against minorities (vs police abuse against non minorities, by definition). I believe there is. I also think you are conflating extremist feminist attitudes with more mainstream feminism.

Both of those are tricks (perhaps even subconscious ones) one uses to not fully recognize or minimize a problem.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19856 by Dog » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:25 pm

And picking an Obama speech and focusing on it as a cause for violence (to the detriment of many other -and to me more obvious- causes) is weird. Don’t you see that what you are saying amounts to either (i) not recognizing a particular problem or (ii) not thinking it merrits rocking the boat over.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19857 by Slick Nick » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:34 pm

Dog wrote:The difference between your position and mine is that I don’t think you really believe that there is especially a problem of police brutality against minorities (vs police brutality against non minorities, by definition). I believe there is. I also think you are conflating extremist feminist attitudes/views with more mainstream feminism.

Both of those are tricks (perhaps even subconscious ones) one use to not fully recognize or minimize a problem.


Well thanks for believing that I'm a bigot but I do indeed think that there is a racism problem with cops, I don't think that it's responsible to address a larger and well defined problem by racializing it. There's clearly a profilage problem, but it's inherently a race issue and you can't bring it up in any other manner. You wonder why there's so much racism right now... that's mostly because we always bring back race in every single discussion. Angry white men this, white women vote that, black killings, etc. You won't ever get passed racism if you keep racializing every single issue. You will have the opposite effect, a backlash. For fucks sake we spent the last 50 years trying to deracialize everyday life.. in the 90s and the 00s, we'd barley hear about race.. doesn't mean racism was out, but we at least tried to get passed it. Now, every single time someone opens his mouth on the TV it's race this race that, don't eat sushi it's racist, don't dress your kid as pokahontas it's racist, privilege, prejudice... like you really hope to achieve a better world by racializing every single topic and divide our way of treating problems from a gender or race perspective? Our societies have never been this polarized, and it's precisely the fact that we're always bringing up race/gender issues that it is this way.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19858 by Slick Nick » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:37 pm

Dog wrote:And picking an Obama speech and focusing on it as a cause for violence (to the detriment of many other -and to me more obvious- causes) is weird. Don’t you see that what you are saying amounts to either (i) not recognizing a particular problem or (ii) not thinking it merrits rocking the boat over.


Where in my previous posts did I single out this as the sole cause? I keep on saying that there is obviously a problem with racism in the police... victimization won't solve it.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19859 by Dog » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:50 pm

I don’t think you are a bigot. I think there is a consistency problem in your argument. 1 + 1 = 1.5 sorta thing.

I don’t quite understand how you can say that there is a racism problem in policing but by pointing that out it is the « pointer » that is turning it into a race issue. It is a race issue. By definition. If there is a racism issue, it is a race issue. Pointing it out doesn’t create the problem. It brings the problem to the forefront to be addressed. Now the reaction may be « ah, fuck this shit. I’m tired of the whining » but how is that consistent with the fact that, as you admit, there is a racism issue in policing? It’s like saying. Yes, there’s a problem, but if you make too big a deal about it people will react and we don’t want that.

And I believe there was a significantly worse race problem in the ‘90s. Clinton’s crime bill had a horrendous effect on the US black community. Gays most certainly had it worse as well. I think the ball has moved forward, which doesn’t mean that the problem has been solved or is sufficiently neutralized to warrant calling for silence. Sexual harrasment claims are exploding right now. That will lead to changes and in time even probably some push back from men crying that they can’t talk to women anymore for fear of going to prison and other nonesense to justify the fact that they don’t like the fact that the goalposts have moved -you can’t be as much of a dick anymore. Doesn’t mesn that sexual harassment is new or didn’t exist in the 90s when you’d perhaps hear less of it.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19860 by Retardé S » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:52 pm

People should be judged by their own behaviour, not by their identity, no matter what the numbers or the optics say. People have the power to be free from their biology, their culture and the influence around them, but it seems like when it's time to be a victim, that notion goes to shit. We humans are all capable of the best and worst, no matter who we are. Assigning victimhood based on gender, race, sexual orientation contradicts our very own nature and interferes directly with our process to determine what's right or wrong. That's what we do when we judge situations with our own preconceived ideas about what the world ought to be rather than facts or the lack thereof.

Being a victim is different from not being a victim and feeling like a victim.

A major problem I'm seeing is that victim mentality is treated like a right rather than a negative aspect of society (which leads to more struggle within communities and the individual internally). It's an awful coping mechanism and societal cop out that at the very best stagnates real progress and potentially just brings out the worst in us.

Now I've heard the argument being made about the danger of calling out false victims and how it could affect real victims (which ironically sounds like fear). My answer to that is take it to the people who actually abuse power/ideas and empower those who feel like a number, but do not meddle with the notion of judgement based on individual behaviour.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19861 by Dog » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:56 pm

Slick Nick wrote:Where in my previous posts did I single out this as the sole cause?


Slick Nick wrote:I believe Obama reacted in a terrible way by acknowledging that the police was in fact racist. [...] C. resulted in several police officers getting murdered and a spike of violence in black neighborhoods.


Slick Nick wrote:So to you it's worse when an innocent black man gets shot vs an innocent white man?


There and there to be exact. But whatever, I don’t want to bust your balls.

I think your heart is in the right place, just find the « victim » blaming odd.
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Post #19862 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:07 am

Retarder S wrote:People should be judged by their own behaviour, not by their identity, no matter what the numbers or the optics say. People have the power to be free from their biology, their culture and the influence around them, but it seems like when it's time to be a victim, that notion goes to shit. We humans are all capable of the best and worst, no matter who we are. Assigning victimhood based on gender, race, sexual orientation contradicts our very own nature and interferes directly with our process to determine what's right or wrong. That's what we do when we judge situations with our own preconceived ideas about what the world ought to be rather than facts or the lack thereof.

Being a victim is different from not being a victim and feeling like a victim.

A major problem I'm seeing is that victim mentality is treated like a right rather than a negative aspect of society (which leads to more struggle within communities and the individual internally). It's an awful coping mechanism and societal cop out that at the very best stagnates real progress and potentially just brings out the worst in us.

Now I've heard the argument being made about the danger of calling out false victims and how it could affect real victims (which ironically sounds like fear). My answer to that is take it to the people who actually abuse power/ideas and empower those who feel like a number, but do not meddle with the notion of judgement based on individual behaviour.


With respect, I have no idea what you guys are on about. Only way I can make sense of it, is if you don’t believe it’s a « real » problem. Would you say abolitionists were playing the « victim » card? Suffragettes? Gay rights activists?

You’d only call it « bullshit victimization » if you believe demands are pushed too far / complaints are overblown.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19863 by Slick Nick » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:10 am

Dog wrote:I don’t think you are a bigot. I think there is a consistency problem in your argument. 1 + 1 = 1.5 sorta thing.

I don’t quite understand how you can that there is a racism problem in policing bit by poiting that out it is the « pointer » that is turning it into a race issue. It is a race issue. By definition. If there is a racism issue, it is a race issue. Pointing it out does create the problem. It brings the problem to the forefront to be addressed. Now the reaction may be « ah, fuck this shit. I’m tired of the whining » but how is that consistent with the fact that, as you admit, there is a racism issue in policing? It’s like saying. Yes, there’s a problem, but if you make too big a deal about it people will react and we don’t want that.


Killings and profilage are very distinct things. You're saying that if a black man gets shot it's a racist crime but if a white man gets shot it's just a crime. I don't buy that. If a black man kills a white police officer; is it a racist crime, or just a crime? Is it ok, or more acceptable, for a black police officer to kill a black man? or a white man? So should we go the BLM way and have black officers for black neighborhoods and white officers for white neighborhoods, segregation is really a good idea, worked well too in the past.

Dog wrote:And I believe there was a significantly worse race problem in the ‘90s. Clinton’s crime bill had a horrendous effect on the US black community. Gays most certainly had it worse as well. I think the ball has mived forward, which doesn’t mean that the problem has been solved or is sufficiently neutralized to warrant calling for silence. Sexual harrasment claims are exploding right now. That will lead to changes and in time even probably some push back from men crying that they can’t talk to women anymore for fear of going to prison and other nonesense to justify the fact that they don’t like the fact that the goalposts have moved -you can’t be as much of a dick anymore. Doesn’t mesn that sexual harassment is new or didn’t exist in the 90s when you’d perhaps hear less of it.


Like I said, it doesn't mean that these problems didn't exist... but the fact that we tried not to bring up race/gender every singly time most definitely helped, alongside education, to get us where we are, and in the last 5 years, we've seen a rise in those issues strangely along side the racializing of everything.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19864 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:26 am

Slick Nick wrote:Killings and profilage are very distinct things. You're saying that if a black man gets shot it's a racist crime but if a white man gets shot it's just a crime. I don't buy that. If a black man kills a white police officer; is it a racist crime, or just a crime? Is it ok, or more acceptable, for a black police officer to kill a black man? or a white man? So should we go the BLM way and have black officers for black neighborhoods and white officers for white neighborhoods, segregation is really a good idea, worked well too in the past.


I believe police develop a very strong « us vs them » mentality. Demographics with higher crime rates and/or lower social standing will be treated much more harshly and violently. In the US particularly, because of historical and socio-economic reasons, that tends to mean police will treat blacks and latinos more violently than whites. That’s the racism issue in policing (and I’m being nice by excluding the downright racist). It is a problem of approach. It is a problem of mentality. It escalades confrontations to a deadly point for nothing and the police will be more trigger happy as they are dealing with their mental « enemy ». It’s not much different, for example, as the heavy handed military tactics used by brazilian police in the slums. It creates a cycle of violence and community mistrust and resentment that keeps the spiral going. Heavy handed police handling of problematic areas and demographics is a problem. So is their militarization. « Profiling » as you call it, stereotyping, dehumanizing leads to violence. They are not seperate worlds.


Dog wrote:
Like I said, it doesn't mean that these problems didn't exist... but the fact that we tried not to bring up race/gender every singly time most definitely helped, alongside education, to get us where we are, and in the last 5 years, we've seen a rise in those issues strangely along side the racializing of everything.


I think this is a fair question. Is bringing complaints to the forfeont the best strategy to have them addressed. I think that’s an « it depends » situation. Overall, I tend to think that what doesn’t get pushed doesn’t get done. And, frankly, I think there is something terribly wrong when people react to complaints by going full alt-right like retard. I think that’s indicative of people not wanting to give what is asked. Wanting minorities to « stay in their place ». I don’t really think the (wider societal) discussion is really about strategy. I think it’s about substance and that’s why it’s so hot button.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19865 by Mufasa » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:39 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:I think you have to call it by name to address it. If anything, I’ve found Obama too restrained up until the end of his second mandate. Too bad the justice department couldn’t continue under Sessions the work it had begun.


So to you it's worse when an innocent black man gets shot vs an innocent white man?

Et tu Nick?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19866 by Macbeth » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:51 am

Mufasa wrote:
Dog wrote:But seriously, these people are obviously suffering from social exclusion. Like any other group in similar circumstances, they can develop anti-social views.

They just need a hug, man. Stop being a jerk and go given them a hug, mumu.


I used to have a friend who was almost 40 years and hadn't kiss a single girl, was obviously closet gay though. He never planned to mass murder womens.

Has he lost the silver pants, duster coat and fedora yet ?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19867 by Slick Nick » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:52 am

Dog wrote:I believe police develop a very strong « us vs them » mentality. Demographics with higher crime rates and/or lower social standing will be treated much more harshly and violently. In the US particularly, because of historical and socio-economic reasons, that tends to mean police will treat blacks and latinos more violently than whites. That’s the racism issue in policing (and I’m being nice by excluding the downright racist). It is a problem of approach. It is a problem of mentality. It escalades confrontations to a deadly point for nothing and the police will be more trigger happy as they are dealing with their mental « enemy ». It’s not much different, for example, as the heavy handed military tactics used by brazilian police in the slums. It creates a cycle of violence and community mistrust and resentment that keeps the spiral going. Heavy handed police handling of problematic areas and demographics is a problem. So is their militarization. « Profiling » as you call it, stereotyping, dehumanizing leads to violence. They are not seperate worlds.


But you don't think that portraying police officers as enemies has an effect on these kids' reaction towards cops? We'll never get out of this loop dog.. rather just agree to disagree. Maybe I care because I was unjustly treated by the police when I was young and dumb, and heard a whole lot of stories of shitty cops from my dumb friends. I spent years in fear of them and it took me years to realize that the police as not my enemy, that it was partly the fault of one particular moron officer and partly my own fault for breaking the law. I think black kids shouldn't be seeing their police officers as enemies, they should trust them and go see them when they need help. Because I believe that the vast majority of police officers, even in the US, just want to do their job proudly. Generalizing about a race, or about a profession, is basically the same. Trust must be earned too, obviously, and things must change without a doubt.


Dog wrote:
I think this is a fair question. Is bringing complaints to the forfeont the best strategy to have them addressed. I think that’s an « it depends » situation. Overall, I tend to think that what doesn’t get pushed doesn’t get done. And, frankly, I think there is something terribly wrong when people react to complaints by going full alt-right like retard. I think that’s indicative of people not wanting to give what is asked. Wanting minorities to « stay in their place ». I don’t really think the (wider societal) discussion is really about strategy. I think it’s about substance and that’s why it’s so hot button.


You can't go around calling everyone a rapist and sexist and a racist and variousphobes and not expect some sort of backlash. "Angry white men" is not more acceptable than "angry black men", yet one is racism and the other is totally fine and a progressive view of the world. Apparently people get angry when they are being called pejorative things. Huh, who would have thought?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19868 by Retardé S » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:57 am

Dog wrote:
Retarder S wrote:People should be judged by their own behaviour, not by their identity, no matter what the numbers or the optics say. People have the power to be free from their biology, their culture and the influence around them, but it seems like when it's time to be a victim, that notion goes to shit. We humans are all capable of the best and worst, no matter who we are. Assigning victimhood based on gender, race, sexual orientation contradicts our very own nature and interferes directly with our process to determine what's right or wrong. That's what we do when we judge situations with our own preconceived ideas about what the world ought to be rather than facts or the lack thereof.

Being a victim is different from not being a victim and feeling like a victim.

A major problem I'm seeing is that victim mentality is treated like a right rather than a negative aspect of society (which leads to more struggle within communities and the individual internally). It's an awful coping mechanism and societal cop out that at the very best stagnates real progress and potentially just brings out the worst in us.

Now I've heard the argument being made about the danger of calling out false victims and how it could affect real victims (which ironically sounds like fear). My answer to that is take it to the people who actually abuse power/ideas and empower those who feel like a number, but do not meddle with the notion of judgement based on individual behaviour.


With respect, I have no idea what you guys are on about. Only way I can make sense of it, is if you don’t believe it’s a « real » problem. Would you say abolishinists were playing the « victim » card? Suffragettes? Gay rights activists?

You’d only call it « bullshit victimization » if you believe demands are pushed too far / complaints are overblown.


Dog, you're one of the most level-headed posters here and I enjoy reading your thoughts, but in this case, I think you're assigning motives to Nick and myself, perhaps not intentionally, in order to make your argument.

As for my post, victim mentality is different than actual victimhood and a problem of its own. It's embedded in our culture. I'm not talking about who gets to be a victim and who doesn't by using a "suffering-o-meter", I'm speaking about people who actually act wrong and suffer consequences and society empowering that behaviour based on the victim status of the groups they can be assigned to. Racism and all kinds of discrimination should be talked about when we face it, but outcomes and what leads to them are complex and by using a broad brush to deal with every problem we face, we reinforce those problems instead of solving them. If what you fear is that I and society can't possibly make the distinction between the bullshit victim card and real injustice despite what we've achieved as a society, I'm honestly not interested in convincing you because it's your world view.

In light of the current political climate, it isn't fun having to constantly defend ones moral stance when trying to make a point in politics. I understand that you might have prejudices against certain opinions, but by making certain nuances and associations it becomes about the person you're having a discussion with.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19869 by Slick Nick » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:10 am

Mufasa wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:I think you have to call it by name to address it. If anything, I’ve found Obama too restrained up until the end of his second mandate. Too bad the justice department couldn’t continue under Sessions the work it had begun.


So to you it's worse when an innocent black man gets shot vs an innocent white man?

Et tu Nick?


Si tu prends tes ritalins et tu lis attentivement ce que j'ai écrit, tu vas comprendre que c'est précisément parce que je trouve que les filles sont géniales que je ne veux pas qu’elles pourrissent de l'intérieur à cause d'une idéologie putride qui se nomme le féminisme de 3ième génération/théorie de l'intersectionnalité/la biologie humaine n'existe pas/les hommes sont tous des porcs et des violeurs. Et c'est précisément parce que j'aime les gens d'ethnie brune (sauf les Portugais) que je souhaite que leur vision du monde ne soit pas subjuguée par l'idée que la société toute entière souhaite/agit pour leur nuire.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19870 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:19 am

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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19871 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:25 am

Portos aren’t brown. They are dark white.

:crossarms:

That said, you idiots have made some good points.

On crime/policing. I come from the point of view that crime is a socio-economic issue. I therefore tend to ascribe behaviours in high crime areas to socio-economics. But, thinking it over because of you idiots, I guess one should not be surprised that cops dealing with people in high crime areas develop an agressive stance. I tend to think that cops should be the grown ups in the room, as paternalistic as that is towards the specific demographic. In the end, though, real blame should go towards socio-economic conditions in high crime areas and that is a whole society problem and blame should not be cast solely on the cops that are mandated to « deal with it » when ressources are otherwise lacking. It has to be addressed at a community level.

On feminism, I still feel like there is a conflating of extremist views with mainstream views (which will serve to discredit the mainstream view, an often used trick even if the person doing it may not be aware that they are doing it). But, if we are solely talking about extremist feminist views, then I would agree that extremist feminist views (of the all mens are pigs and irredeemable type) are too extreme and counter-productive.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19872 by Mufasa » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:44 am

Macbeth wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Dog wrote:But seriously, these people are obviously suffering from social exclusion. Like any other group in similar circumstances, they can develop anti-social views.

They just need a hug, man. Stop being a jerk and go given them a hug, mumu.


I used to have a friend who was almost 40 years and hadn't kiss a single girl, was obviously closet gay though. He never planned to mass murder womens.

Has he lost the silver pants, duster coat and fedora yet ?


Haven't seen him since that faithful night. But he's not the kind of mens to lose such things.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19873 by Mufasa » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:45 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
So to you it's worse when an innocent black man gets shot vs an innocent white man?

Et tu Nick?


Si tu prends tes ritalins et tu lis attentivement ce que j'ai écrit, tu vas comprendre que c'est précisément parce que je trouve que les filles sont géniales que je ne veux pas qu’elles pourrissent de l'intérieur à cause d'une idéologie putride qui se nomme le féminisme de 3ième génération/théorie de l'intersectionnalité/la biologie humaine n'existe pas/les hommes sont tous des porcs et des violeurs. Et c'est précisément parce que j'aime les gens d'ethnie brune (sauf les Portugais) que je souhaite que leur vision du monde ne soit pas subjuguée par l'idée que la société toute entière souhaite/agit pour leur nuire.


Sti que t'es vide Nick.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19874 by Craig » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:27 am

Retarder S wrote:People should be judged by their own behaviour, not by their identity, no matter what the numbers or the optics say. People have the power to be free from their biology, their culture and the influence around them, but it seems like when it's time to be a victim, that notion goes to shit.


Yeah, just stop being black, inner city youths of America.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19875 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:04 am

Craig wrote:
Retarder S wrote:People should be judged by their own behaviour, not by their identity, no matter what the numbers or the optics say. People have the power to be free from their biology, their culture and the influence around them, but it seems like when it's time to be a victim, that notion goes to shit.


Yeah, just stop being black, inner city youths of America.


I think they have a point that there is also a problem with some of the culture and behaviour of, say, poor inner city black youths in high crime areas in America.

From there, I don't agree with what appears to me to be a conclusion of "stop whining, look at your own behaviour and bootstrap yourself into being a fine outstanding young citizen". It severally downplays what is the central issue. Socio-economic conditions in those areas. That's the real thing that needs to be addressed.

I tend to think that humans are humans, put them in similar conditions and they react similarly (like real similar conditions, from birth onwards). Stereotypes can hold to an extend (as unfair as they are to those that inevitably don't fit and as exaggerated as they tend to become), but that is superficial. The real question is the "why". Why do people in x, y, z circumstances tend to do a, b, c more on average and on a relative basis compared to other subgroups. Conservative leaning folk will tend to ascribe failures to character flaws (except within their own subgroup, for which many have a blind spot). Liberals will tend to flip it around. They'll tend to ascribe failures to environmental conditions (except within the subgroup of those that don't share their worldview). I think liberals are right in that when subsections of society behave in a certain way, you'll get a lot further ahead in resolving an issue by looking for general conditions affecting the subset than by just dismissing it as the character failings of that subset. I find it extremely unlikely that you get the power, wealth and privilege distributions within society that you have based primarily on own personal will power and diligence of participants. The world over, minority groups tend to fair less well than the dominant groups. Groups with long histories of oppression tend to fair the worst. There are rare exceptions, but that tends to be it. Is it because these very diverse groups in different part of the world all have lower fortitude of character? I tend to think that is unlikely. I tend to think it is because of the relative marginalization and subordinated power dynamics of the group (which can be historic with mostly lingering inequality of ressources and prejudices).
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19876 by AD » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:06 am

Nick, I as well, hate most Portos.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19877 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:08 am

AD wrote:Nick, I as well, hate most Portos.


So, what you're saying is that there is a chance you don't hate me!

:banana:
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19878 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:13 am

I find this discussion fascinating! Thanks to hack for posting his thoughts, that he knew would be unpopular here, and getting a discussion going. I don't know about you folks, but honnest discussions with people with different viewpoints is the primary mechanism by which I questions and can advance my own thoughts. Interesting stuff.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19879 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:23 am

Basically, what you guys are saying is that identity politics is the primary (or at least a leading) cause of the polarization of politics and the right wing "backlash". Is that a fair characterization?

I don't find that an unreasonable statement, even I don't know what causative power in polarizing politics I'd ascribe to identity politics myself.

Regardless, if we take it at face value, I think it merits digging deeper. Why would identity politics cause a backlash? Why do the demands of minority groups cause members of the majority to retrench and counter-attack? Is it for fear of loss of privilege? In that case, is it justifiable, other than by violence or coercion, to hold on to such privilege? Is it simply psychological? "By claiming you are mistreated by society and because I am part of the majority of that society, you are in fact attacking me and I will not have it", sorta thing. That's fine, but is it just a gut reaction or is it justified? If somebody airs a justified grievance, should I be allowed to dismiss it because I can't handle criticism of the social dynamics of which I am a member of the dominant class?

It's not necessarily a black or white or aboriginal thing, either. I was quite miffed when black voters in California, for example, voted predominantly against gay rights amendments on the same night as they celebrated the election of the first black (mulatto, really) president.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19880 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:05 am

I think I get the gist of nick’s/retarder’s sentiment. You can’t just ascribe external blame for your woos, you need to help yourself too. Is this the victim mentality you refer to?

I think that is fair, at least in some cases. But it goes hand in hand. If you recognize systemic bias and work to address it, to level the playing field, you will also expect results at some point. That the situation redresses itself progressively, with time. I don’t think you can really have one without the other. You can’t say to people, « stop pointing out the headwinds, just walk harder ». It is absolutely legitimate to point out the headwinds and as the headwinds are addressed (trully) to expect progress. It’s a long endeavour to erase centuries/millenia of social domination/prejudice.

In fact, it’s not only race/gender related. Similar could be said for areas of high white unemployment and generational welfare cycles. You need to do something to try to break the cycle. Invest in the communities. Offer good schooling, social services, quality early childcare, reward work re-integration, try to foster some civic pride and build the community’s self esteem. Still, it could well take generations to trully notice change. Either that or call them lazy bums, despise them and nothing ever gets better.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19881 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:20 am

You related this to my daughter, nick. I thought about that. I certainly don’t teach her that she’ll face headwinds as a woman and her goal is to fight those headwinds. I teach her the opposite. That girls are just as smart as boys and can do whatever they want. I’ve always been mindful not to give her doubt on women’s place in the world. But you know what, it comes anyways. She’s come to me with quite a few « girls vs boys » questions, all since starting school. Looking at history books, she’s also noted how shitty women had it in the past. It brings up questions. My answer has always to enforce that they were wrong, those headwinds are lifted and she can do anything she wants. Still, she doesn’t just live with me. She gets societal messages from peers, tv, etc. And even at 7 has questionned it. I’m also mindful that she is quite privileged and has alot of ressources backing her. Because of that, I’m quite confident she will face relatively limited headwinds. Except maybe if she goes into STEM. Those incels scare me. Seriously, there is a problem in tech with regards to women. Hopefully, it is addressed by the time she grows up if she goes down that path. If I was raising a kid facing significant more headwinds than an upper middle class white girl, I may have a different perspective. May prepare him/her to expect more headwinds. I’m also myself and my wife relatively educated, well off, resourceful types. That informs my worldview and approach. If I had less tools/privileges, I’d be different.

An interesting I came accross a while ago. Studies tend to show that girl’s perdormance in STEM tails off in high school, mostly because of culture. This, in 2017. Studies as simple as giving a math test to grade schoolers and high schoolers. Two groups for each. One group told the « test is very hard, most fail » before starting. The other, not told this. Girls in elementary school did similarly in both groups. Girls in high school trailled boys significantly if told in advance the math test was hard. They bettered boys if not told this. Something between elementary school and high school changes girl’s perception of their ability in stem. The message is cultural.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19882 by MP » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:27 am

Cultural or estrogen...
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19883 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:28 am

Estrogen?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19884 by MP » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:45 am

The other thing that changes between elementary and secondary school for girls.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19885 by AD » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:52 am

Why are we discussing high school girls in two different thread in two different boards. I move to have one board dedicated to high school girls.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19886 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:56 am

Estrogen brings self-doubt ?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19887 by PPJ » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:30 pm

AD wrote:Nick, I as well, hate most Portos.


I consider it a point of honour being hated by the likes of you.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19888 by MP » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:59 pm

Dog wrote:Estrogen brings self-doubt ?

Estrogen screws up everything....but it creates boobs, so we put up with it.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19889 by Mufasa » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:28 pm

MP wrote:
Dog wrote:Estrogen brings self-doubt ?

Estrogen screws up everything....but it creates boobs, so we put up with it.


WELL THAT'S IT FOLKS.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19890 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 pm

All the ills can be explained away rather easily, fellas: too much, too fast (béaucoup beaucoup, béaucoup rapidé).
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19891 by Macbeth » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Mufasa wrote:
MP wrote:
Dog wrote:Estrogen brings self-doubt ?

Estrogen screws up everything....but it creates boobs, so we put up with it.


WELL THAT'S IT FOLKS.

Oùsse tu veux aller après ça ?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19892 by Not » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:53 pm

Dog wrote:You related this to my daughter, nick. I thought about that. I certainly don’t teach her that she’ll face headwinds as a woman and her goal is to fight those headwinds. I teach her the opposite. That girls are just as smart as boys and can do whatever they want. I’ve always been mindful not to give her doubt on women’s place in the world. But you know what, it comes anyways. She’s come to me with quite a few « girls vs boys » questions, all since starting school. Looking at history books, she’s also noted how shitty women had it in the past. It brings up questions. My answer has always to enforce that they were wrong, those headwinds are lifted and she can do anything she wants. Still, she doesn’t just live with me. She gets societal messages from peers, tv, etc. And even at 7 has questionned it. I’m also mindful that she is quite privileged and has alot of ressources backing her. Because of that, I’m quite confident she will face relatively limited headwinds. Except maybe if she goes into STEM. Those incels scare me. Seriously, there is a problem in tech with regards to women. Hopefully, it is addressed by the time she grows up if she goes down that path. If I was raising a kid facing significant more headwinds than an upper middle class white girl, I may have a different perspective. May prepare him/her to expect more headwinds. I’m also myself and my wife relatively educated, well off, resourceful types. That informs my worldview and approach. If I had less tools/privileges, I’d be different.

An interesting I came accross a while ago. Studies tend to show that girl’s perdormance in STEM tails off in high school, mostly because of culture. This, in 2017. Studies as simple as giving a math test to grade schoolers and high schoolers. Two groups for each. One group told the « test is very hard, most fail » before starting. The other, not told this. Girls in elementary school did similarly in both groups. Girls in high school trailled boys significantly if told in advance the math test was hard. They bettered boys if not told this. Something between elementary school and high school changes girl’s perception of their ability in stem. The message is cultural.


Dog - I have a 28 year old daughter. Never once have I had a discussion on the place of women in the world with her. Of course I have a much more simplistic view of child raising (love, nurture, support) but what you describe sounds like a science experiment. :hillary:
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19893 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:02 pm

She’s asked me questions, it’s not that I sat her down and talked to her about it. She asks herself questions about everything, I have no idea where she gets it from!
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19894 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:05 pm

She mulls it over too. Will come back and ask from different angles over a period of time until she appears to have satisfied her curiosity. Then, she moves on. No idea where it comes from.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19895 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:07 pm

I mean, from a young age, we’ve given her treats and allowed her out of her enclosure when she asks the right questions and give her a mild electrochock when she doesn’t, but that’s just normal.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19896 by Macbeth » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:08 pm

Dog wrote:She mulls it over too. Will come back and ask from different angles over a period of time until she appears to have satisfied her curiosity. Then, she moves on. No idea where it comes from.

Her parents being CRAZY FUCKERS ?
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19897 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

That’s like your opinion, man.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19898 by Wavering Transient » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

Dog, I will give you and others a proper reply tomorrow, but I can answer your Prop. 8 question before I leave for work.

Black people are often social conservatives by way of Christianity and Islam. Liberals use them as a sort of reliable vote mule, but are often surprised to find out that the social progessive agenda does not go over well with them. The black Obama vote was a racial identity vote, which poll analyses comparing 2008–2012 to 2016 bear out.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19899 by Dog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:12 pm

Wavering Transient wrote:Dog, I will give you and others a proper reply tomorrow, but I can answer your Prop. 8 question before I leave for work.

Black people are often social conservatives by way of Christianity and Islam. Liberals use them as a sort of reliable vote mule, but are often surprised to find out that the social progessive agenda does not go over well with them. The black Obama vote was a racial identity vote, which poll analyses comparing 2008–2012 to 2016 bear out.


I don’t disagree with this. Many minorities are not themselves progressives. Still doesn’t change the fact that bleading hearts pull for them to be treated fairly/have the playing field levelled.

It’s not a quid pro quo thing or belief that we necessarily share the same worldview. It’s really a belief in individual rights and level playing field, even if the recipients don’t share those beliefs.
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Re: Habs Broads: Everything is meh and everbody is meh

Post #19900 by Mufasa » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:27 pm

On why the Incel subreddit was closed.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... are_btn_tw

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