FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

And some artists..
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Post #151 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:04 pm

Dog wrote:
znk wrote:
TittiesNBeer wrote:I cant believe max will continue to take 5 shots a game without scoring though. Think hes gonna pot a few soon and that might be enough given how close things are.


They are almost all perimeter shots so it's easy to believe.


Unfair! He's shot a few from the crease directly into Lundqvist's mid chest.

Not true either from the video.

Credit where its due. Lundqvist has played well.

Sometimes a shooter can do everything hes expected to do and the goalie os just better
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #152 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:07 pm

Tell that to Gallagher!

(And I was kidding with the mid section shots). Patches genral play has been underwhelming, not necessarily his shots.
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Post #153 by edgar_dong » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:18 pm

I'll give Queen Hank a nod for being an old piece of shit giving it his all on his last legs, but any competent forward group would have carved his ass up by now.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #154 by MP » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:21 pm

edgar_dong wrote:I'll give Queen Hank a nod for being an old piece of shit giving it his all on his last legs, but any competent forward group would have carved his ass up by now.

Don't worry, the mighty Senators of Ottawa will look after ol' Hank for ya...
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Post #155 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:23 pm

I will miss most not having the chance to see our habs macro fracture Stone's hand.

:(
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Post #156 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:27 pm

Dog wrote:Tell that to Gallagher!

(And I was kidding with the mid section shots). Patches genral play has been underwhelming, not necessarily his shots.

I dont think hes been underwhelming at all.

He made one big mistake all series. The mcdonagh play that led to nashs goal.

Other than that the habs have controlled play with him on the ice, hes generated a ton of shots and chances, and is snakebit to not score.

Not much more he can do other than keep generating chances and controlling the play. If things dont go in for him thats just shit luck.

It sucks we arent winning... but hes not a guy i can find many faults with.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #157 by Not » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:29 pm

I love fair and balanced titties :danson:
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #158 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:30 pm

I don't like his puck control and passing.

:crossarms:
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Post #159 by Retarder S » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:14 pm

Patches had 2 or 3 legit chances last night, so it's a good sign. He's shot the puck a lot so far, but a lot has been coming from bad angles. I agree with Dog that his inability to keep the puck and his giveaways in the offensive end has been frustrating. He needs to be better in that aspect.
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Post #160 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:36 pm

We keep coming back to this narrrative that he's shooting from the perimeter and from bad angles. He's not.

Here are his 7 high danger scoring chances (in video form, for the I don't trust the stats, i need the eye test) from the first four games. You can see, he's getting chances from in tight, and not from bad angles.

Its about half way down the article.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/whats-behind-max-paciorettys-playoff-goal-scoring-woes/
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Post #161 by znk » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:48 pm

Even mumu would have stopped all those crest shots. :crossarms:
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Post #162 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:53 pm

To be fair, though, mumu quite enjoys getting shots on his chest.
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Post #163 by Retarder S » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:05 pm

Meh, he's been getting looks, but that doesn't mean his game is where it needs to be. The habs in general have been having a hard time sustaining pressure, and Pacioretty's main weakness has been not being able to provide space and time for his teammates in the offensive end because he's not strong enough on the puck and he's making bad decisions under pressure. Those are things that fans, coaches and teammates expect from one of the team's biggest and best forwards.

With evaluating Pacioretty's game, many fans always conflate his shots with his success, but you expect him to do other things well to generate offense not only for himself, but his linemates too. The main reason Pacioretty gets criticism when he's still shooting is because he's not protecting the puck, moving his feet and making bad passes.

That said, some shots from bad angles are the right play, but it's the exception to the rule.
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Post #164 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:18 pm

Can we just leave the pok tok to Retarded and Mcphee and revoke everyone else's pok tok privilege ?
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Post #165 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:19 pm

Other than _dong, obvs. _dong can and is welcomed to do as pleases him.
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Post #166 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Retarder S wrote:Meh, he's been getting looks, but that doesn't mean his game is where it needs to be. The habs in general have been having a hard time sustaining pressure, and Pacioretty's main weakness has been not being able to provide space and time for his teammates in the offensive end because he's not strong enough on the puck and he's making bad decisions under pressure. Those are things that fans, coaches and teammates expect from one of the team's biggest and best forwards.

With evaluating Pacioretty's game, many fans always conflate his shots with his success, but you expect him to do other things well to generate offense not only for himself, but his linemates too. The main reason Pacioretty gets criticism when he's still shooting is because he's not protecting the puck, moving his feet and making bad passes.

That said, some shots from bad angles are the right play, but it's the exception to the rule.


"Pacioretty's main weakness has been not being able to provide space and time for his teammates in the offensive end because he's not strong enough on the puck"

And again we go back to the stats that no forward on either team has better possession numbers in the series. So his line is sustaining pressure in the offensive end.

Look he's not scoring, I get how frustrating that is. But just because a player spends five games without scoring a goal, it doesn't mean that he is not doing the same things he's done all season long and is now playing poorly. He isn't. He just is getting shut down by a combination of Lundqvist's great goaltending and a lack of puck luck over a small sample size.

As McPhee said, play these teams 100 times and it probably ends 51-49 cause they are so closely matched. I'll add this, let them play 100 times, and Max likely comes up with 40 goals. However there will probably be a 5-6 stretch where he doesn't score. Lets hope its 5 and not 6.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #167 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:54 pm

We're not upset that Patches isn't scoring. We're upset that scoring is the only thing he can do.
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Post #168 by Not » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:36 pm

Dog wrote:We're not upset that Patches isn't scoring. We're upset that scoring is the only thing he can do.


Fake news!!!

He kills penalties and so far Rags are 0 for whatever on the PP
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Post #169 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:37 pm

It isn't though. With the exception of one play vs McDonagh at the blueline in game 4, he's played a great 200 foot game in this series.
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Post #170 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:39 pm

Not wrote:
Dog wrote:We're not upset that Patches isn't scoring. We're upset that scoring is the only thing he can do.


Fake news!!!

He kills penalties and so far Rags are 0 for whatever on the PP


I was actually going to edit that to restrict the comment to play in the O zone, but didn't.

Nothing gets past you guys!
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Post #171 by Not » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:50 pm

Dog wrote:
Not wrote:
Dog wrote:We're not upset that Patches isn't scoring. We're upset that scoring is the only thing he can do.


Fake news!!!

He kills penalties and so far Rags are 0 for whatever on the PP


I was actually going to edit that to restrict the comment to play in the O zone, but didn't.

Nothing gets past you guys!


Wrong again - his 60.84 CF% says otherwise
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Post #172 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:56 pm

Wtf is a cf%?
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Post #173 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:57 pm

Does Galchenyuk also have a good cf%?
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Post #174 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:04 pm

Dog wrote:Wtf is a cf%?


Corsi For %

Corsi For while one is on the ice / (Corsi for + Corsi Against while one is on the ice).

If you are above 50% your team has more control of the play when you are on the ice then the other team does. The more above 50, the better.
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Post #175 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:06 pm

Don't first lines playing at home usually have high cf%?
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Post #176 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:09 pm

Dog wrote:Does Galchenyuk also have a good cf%?


50.4% for the regular season
49.6% for this series

Basically right around even for him.
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Post #177 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:10 pm

Also, what is the fancy stat for "killing a offensive zone presence with a low quality/percentage pass, taking a low probability shot or losing control of the puck"?

It's not that Patches is bad compared to the average player, but is for what you'd expect of a "star" winger.

Nash is a similar player in my mind -whose play should be below Patch's at this point in his career, but he's had more impact on the series. Not so much just goals scored, but amount of dangerous scoring opportunities generated. Anywho, that what I see and mcphee will back me up so tread carefully.
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Post #178 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:11 pm

Dog wrote:Don't first lines playing at home usually have high cf%?


This is measured over all 5 games, not just 1 game. So 3 at home 2 on the road.

And no, first lines don't always have high CF%, but the good ones do.
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Post #179 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:11 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:
Dog wrote:Does Galchenyuk also have a good cf%?


50.4% for the regular season
49.6% for this series

Basically right around even for him.


Ok for the line he's played on.
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Post #180 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:14 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:
Dog wrote:Don't first lines playing at home usually have high cf%?


This is measured over all 5 games, not just 1 game. So 3 at home 2 on the road.

And no, first lines don't always have high CF%, but the good ones do.


No doubt his line has played pretty well. This is one of those things where you see too many plays dying on his stick and think "wtf does he bring to the table". Undoubtedly it's informed by having higher expectations of him than most players.
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Post #181 by mcphee » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:18 pm

I think 67 is limited at times by the team not having a C who can drive a line. There's nothing
To criticize in Danault's game but he isn't that kind of player. He got his 35 this year because he's a tremendous goal scorer.

Radu is a playmaker, but at times, a C has to direct traffic. It's a team flaw and it's hard to address but in tough games, our big guns are vulnerable.
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Post #182 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:22 pm

I agree with mcphee. If the habs had a better C, he could better mask Patche's obvious shortcomings.
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Post #183 by Retarder S » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:50 pm

What stats calculates the times a player is responsible for killing offensive zone pressure? We can talk about corsi% but in no way it paints the picture into how a player manages the puck and how teammates around him support him.

I'm not critical of Max's 5 game scoring drought, I'm critical of his play in the offensive end which affects the team both offensively and defensively. It's the reason why despite playing with the top scorer on the team, his line was blown apart. The stats paint a different picture of what's actually happening on the ice this time. Why are people trading Galchenyuk? I mean he has 3pts in 5 games, not that bad right? Why should we only be critical of players who are not known for their scoring? There's more to hockey than points.

Now, is Patches the only one to blame? No, we should give credit to the rangers too, they've protected Lundqvist well for the most part, specially the last two games. And like mcphee said driving the offense is a team weakness in general, so there's not much the habs can rely on to generate offense on a consistent basis. The thing is, we know the player in question can do better and become a difference maker in the next couple of games, he's the captain and arguably the most prolific forward on team, some form of criticism is warranted.
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Post #184 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:04 pm

Dog wrote:Also, what is the fancy stat for "killing a offensive zone presence with a low quality/percentage pass, taking a low probability shot or losing control of the puck"?

It's not that Patches is bad compared to the average player, but is for what you'd expect of a "star" winger.

Nash is a similar player in my mind -whose play should be below Patch's at this point in his career, but he's had more impact on the series. Not so much just goals scored, but amount of dangerous scoring opportunities generated. Anywho, that what I see and mcphee will back me up so tread carefully.


You have to be careful of confirmation bias. Nash has finished his chances, or had a defenceman grab the rebound and finish the chance, where Lundqvist has made the saves on max, and only once has someone put in the rebound (Radulov game 2). So in our mind we think that one is doing more and the other is seeing plays die on his stick. But the stats don't back that up. Thats the most useful thing about the stats to me. Destroying confirmation bias that happens to all of us as fans.

There is nothing to indicate Max is making more low quality plays than anyone else. If he was, he wouldn't have the dominant possession and the great number of high danger and medium danger chances while he's on the ice.
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Post #185 by mcphee » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:08 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:
Dog wrote:Also, what is the fancy stat for "killing a offensive zone presence with a low quality/percentage pass, taking a low probability shot or losing control of the puck"?

It's not that Patches is bad compared to the average player, but is for what you'd expect of a "star" winger.

Nash is a similar player in my mind -whose play should be below Patch's at this point in his career, but he's had more impact on the series. Not so much just goals scored, but amount of dangerous scoring opportunities generated. Anywho, that what I see and mcphee will back me up so tread carefully.


You have to be careful of confirmation bias. Nash has finished his chances, or had a defenceman grab the rebound and finish the chance, where Lundqvist has made the saves on max, and only once has someone put in the rebound (Radulov game 2). So in our mind we think that one is doing more and the other is seeing plays die on his stick. But the stats don't back that up. Thats the most useful thing about the stats to me. Destroying confirmation bias.

Nash can score in a way that Patch seldom does, bull rush to the net. After a season and Patch scores 35 and Nash has [?] less than that, it doesn't matter how. It does get noticeable though when the ways to score get limited.
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Post #186 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:09 pm

The fact that Max doesn't have a centre to play off of/play with is a big factor here though. I agree with that.
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Post #187 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:12 pm

And just because a line is broken up doesn't mean that they weren't playing well or controlling the play.

The fact is that the pucks weren't going in the net.

Julien may think that some kind of shuffling may change things a little, may spark it and get the pucks to start going in.

We've seen over the years, Max is a streaky goal scorer. I still believe if he can get one, he finishes this series with 2 or 3, and takes that into the next round too. If he gets it going he'll be very dangerous as he's getting the chances.
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Post #188 by mcphee » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:17 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:And just because a line is broken up doesn't mean that they weren't playing well or controlling the play.

The fact is that the pucks weren't going in the net.

Julien may think that some kind of shuffling may change things a little, may spark it and get the pucks to start going in.

We've seen over the years, Max is a streaky goal scorer. I still believe if he can get one, he finishes this series with 2 or 3, and takes that into the next round too. If he gets it going he'll be very dangerous as he's getting the chances.

I don't know if CJ spoke about lines but I thought he was looking to use 47 to spark 27, as much as anything. I think he shuffled last night when he may have been better leaving things. Maybe it was matchup or checking related but I didn't see the upside.
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Post #189 by mcphee » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:19 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:The fact that Max doesn't have a centre to play off of/play with is a big factor here though. I agree with that.

Danault isn't a bad passer, he isn't a particularly good playmaker, there's a difference.
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Post #190 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:22 pm

mcphee wrote:
TittiesNBeer wrote:The fact that Max doesn't have a centre to play off of/play with is a big factor here though. I agree with that.

Danault isn't a bad passer, he isn't a particularly good playmaker, there's a difference.


I didn't say anything about his passing.

I just said he's not a guy for Max to play off of/play with. We can all agree he's not your typical #1 Centre. Obviously a line with a true #1 C is going to better than one with Danault on it. I like Danault, don't get me wrong. But he's been forced into a role that is probably two lines too high for him right now by circumstances.
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Post #191 by edgar_dong » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:40 pm

Bikor, if you've been working overtime the last few nights and haven't been able to actually watch Pacioretty, it's okay. :danson:
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Post #192 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:07 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:
Dog wrote:Also, what is the fancy stat for "killing a offensive zone presence with a low quality/percentage pass, taking a low probability shot or losing control of the puck"?

It's not that Patches is bad compared to the average player, but is for what you'd expect of a "star" winger.

Nash is a similar player in my mind -whose play should be below Patch's at this point in his career, but he's had more impact on the series. Not so much just goals scored, but amount of dangerous scoring opportunities generated. Anywho, that what I see and mcphee will back me up so tread carefully.


You have to be careful of confirmation bias. Nash has finished his chances, or had a defenceman grab the rebound and finish the chance, where Lundqvist has made the saves on max, and only once has someone put in the rebound (Radulov game 2). So in our mind we think that one is doing more and the other is seeing plays die on his stick. But the stats don't back that up. Thats the most useful thing about the stats to me. Destroying confirmation bias that happens to all of us as fans.

There is nothing to indicate Max is making more low quality plays than anyone else. If he was, he wouldn't have the dominant possession and the great number of high danger and medium danger chances while he's on the ice.


Makes sense (if you can trust the stats). Unfortunately it
also means we have to stop watching games as it only skews our perception of what is actually going on.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #193 by mcphee » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:14 pm

TittiesNBeer wrote:
mcphee wrote:
TittiesNBeer wrote:The fact that Max doesn't have a centre to play off of/play with is a big factor here though. I agree with that.

Danault isn't a bad passer, he isn't a particularly good playmaker, there's a difference.


I didn't say anything about his passing.

I just said he's not a guy for Max to play off of/play with. We can all agree he's not your typical #1 Centre. Obviously a line with a true #1 C is going to better than one with Danault on it. I like Danault, don't get me wrong. But he's been forced into a role that is probably two lines too high for him right now by circumstances.

I wasn't arguing, or disagreeing, I was continuing the point. here's a trend in the league now, more than I've seen in a while where you see a grinder playing with skill. Maybe Lucic brought it back in style, but it usually isn't the C. I don't think Danault holds anyone back , his board work gets a lot of pucks to his wingers, but there is stuff that he just doesn't do. To Danault's credit, he hasn't tried to play differently to suit his wingers.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #194 by Dog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:19 pm

Dano still has alot of goodwill, so we don't see it yet. He's the new DD on this team.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #195 by mcphee » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:26 pm

Dog wrote:Dano still has alot of goodwill, so we don't see it yet. He's the new DD on this team.

Thing is, he takes Eller's place. If they can get 30-32 points for the next 6 years, they'll be thrilled.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #196 by TittiesNBeer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:47 pm

Dog wrote:Dano still has alot of goodwill, so we don't see it yet. He's the new DD on this team.


Danault is better defensively.

But yes, if they continue to play him out of position on the first line, he'll take abuse.

I don't blame Danault though, its not his fault that the Habs have no depth at centre. It wasn't DD's fault either.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #197 by Mufasa » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:43 am

From my time with the team, I understand he and the coaching staff want him to be in a position to use his shot from the circles. They believe it's better, numberwise, if he always stays around that spot and let other guys do the trash and digging.
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #198 by Dog » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:34 am

An impoverished mens Brett Hull or a rich mens Pierre Dagenais!
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Re: FDS05 : BACK TO BASICS

Post #199 by Not » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:20 pm

The only issue with Patches this series is that he hasn't finished his chances - and some of that is bad pok lok.

His play and leadership wouldn't of been an issue if he got a couple of greasy goals.

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