Dog containment thread and random noises

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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #201 by Macbeth » Fri May 11, 2018 12:37 am

I'm with Dogo here, though this has started to feel like a bunch of cunty-ass writers arguing about drama and this, my good friends, is never a good look on a self-respecting mens.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #202 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 12:48 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:making abstractions, computations, probabilistic assessments, reasoning, deciding......none of that means "outside a causal chain reaction". the weird thing is thinking human brains are the only things outside causal chains or randomness in our universe.

it's a paradigm shift. those are hard. takes some rewiring. but it's logical. pretty self evident, even. follow the logic and you'll get there.



No really, I'm not sure I understand what you're pointing to...

Exemple: Let's scratch death penalty.

What I am saying: a bunch of us think about it, deliberate and take a decision. Granted it's skewed by our biaises, but we do understand what we are discussing and the implications of our deliberations.

What you're saying: a bunch of us think about it, deliberate and take a decision, but none of us at any point had any agency over our thoughts, deliberations or decision making, because quantum physics. We do take choices (that we have no agency on) and we do observe consequences and somehow feel about them, because we have bouts of consciousness (not the kind that has agency, but the kind that has appreciation over choices or thoughts outside of out agency).

I'm really lost dog.. I just don't understand how you can reconcile both ideas.


Ok. lemme try to run it step by step with careful attention to terms.

1. notion of self. you are oscillating between two definitions and that is causing the confusion. definition one: a body as a physical apparatus comprised of interconnected cells. a physical machine. definition two: your consciousness, defined as the subjective experiences you have.

2. input goes into the machine, runs through it's circuits per its wiring and out goes output. the machine can do complicated computations and reasoning, weigh options. make probibalistic assessments. heck, it can even have faulty wiring and spew all kinds of nonsense. Can we agree on this? Consciousness is not needed. You can have a robot do this. from the outside, you won't be able to tell the difference. whether it has consciousness or not. shit goes through the complicated wiring and produces output.

3. consciousness. that feeling of awareness. you've agreed that it's part of the wiring. However, physics governs what goes through the wires. a synapse will fire because it is stimulated by a chemical which was released by an electrical impulse which was released by a prior synaptic simulation. Yes? input, sets out a chain reaction in the wiring, leads to output. But here, you make a magic claim. You say, "wait dog, when consciousness kicks in it takes control of the chain reaction. it (consciousness) decides which is the next neuron to stimulate and it does so not based on the prior stimulation but based on "free will". Note that "free will" here is, necessarily, something that acts without being constrained by prior cause otherwise, it's the chain reaction happening. Your notion of consciousness has it "deciding" outside the chain reaction. That doesn't exist*. if it's within the chain reaction, it's not free will. it's just the machine.

what i'm saying consciousness is: a feeling of self awareness that feels like "control" but can't be. the process is automatic, per the physical chain reaction. consciousness is an observer, not the driver. i know it doesn't feel that way. for decisions to be "free", they have to be detached from prior cause (ie. neuron fires, consciousness catches it, decides with no physical prior cause to change the direction of the signal, sends it another way). Your notion of consciousness as an agent is by definition something that breaks the causal chain. If it's just the causal chain, it's not free. It's "automatic" (even if it can be doing very complex things).

*i've kept the explanation to causal chains to simplify. In reality, events are governed by cause and effect in the macro world and randomness in the quantum world. very little randomness of the quantum world is carried over in the macro world because possible energy states get constrained (happy to explain if you wish), but some is. So, in reality, the world is governed by a combination of cause and effect and randomness. However, both of them make free will impossible. You don't control prior cause and you don't control randomness.

This help?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #203 by Slick Nick » Fri May 11, 2018 12:58 am

Macbeth wrote:I'm with Dogo here, though this has started to feel like a bunch of cunty-ass writers arguing about drama and this, my good friends, is never a good look on a self-respecting mens.


I'm not even arguing with Dog... I'm genuinely interested in understanding his point of view, and interested in further developing mine. And I'm not absolutely convinced of my position either.. just trying to make sense of all of this.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #204 by Macbeth » Fri May 11, 2018 1:00 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Macbeth wrote:I'm with Dogo here, though this has started to feel like a bunch of cunty-ass writers arguing about drama and this, my good friends, is never a good look on a self-respecting mens.


I'm not even arguing with Dog... I'm genuinely interested in understanding his point of view, and interested in further developing mine. And I'm not absolutely convinced of my position either.. just trying to make sense of all of this.

That's what I am saying.

Cunty-ass writers arguing about drama.

We're all "genuinely interested in understanding the other's point of view", Sliquety Snick.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #205 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 1:03 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:I mean, your post before that was an appeal to logic without evidence. Like, really?


i've backed up my assertions extensively. i'm happy to discuss with you if you want, greg. or not if this is not of interest to you. i seriously don't care. nick's been discussing with me in a thread set up for that very purpose (by him, actually). you wanna talk, great. you don't, fine.

the appeal to logic is actually incredibly simple.

step one. assumptions: a) the universe is ruled by cause and effect and randomness. b) your decisions and actions are the result of neutrons firing in your brain. c) your neurons are part of the universe. do you accept these or do you need "evidence"?

step two. deduction. your neurons fire per a closed causal chain or randomly. your "consciousness" doesn't swoop in and break the causal chain and control the next firings per magic.

this basic reasoning is backed up by growing neuroscientific evidence.

not interested in the discussion? don't have it.


If they were firing randomly, you would get sentences like this: dog :bettman: :paulrus: BLUE :trump2: :trump2: 45784svq ... that's if random firing could have made us built civilizations based on logic, abstract thinking, symbols sharing, etc.

So let's discard that avenue. If there's a chain... in your deterministic model, tomorrow's conversation is already scripted, and the reverse phenomena is also true, which would mean that the nanosecond after the bigbang, it was predictable that we would talk about burnt genitalia in a free will debate on here.. and how do you make sense of it.


Your first paragraph. that should not even be up for discussion. it's a non controversial scientific fact. and it's not as you describe. the macro world is a combination of cause and effect and randomness. the randomness comes from the quantum world. not much remains in the macro world because possible energy states get reduced giving you the stability of the macro world. i can explain if you want or you can read up on it if you prefer. fundamentally, causation in the macro world is probabilistic. said simply (but at the cost of some exactitude), the macro world is almost all the time (almost all the odds) causal and extremely rarely random. but really, it doesn't matter. neither a causal world not a random world allow free will.

second paragraph. yes, mostly. the macro world is almost all causal. you have to allow some wiggle room for random, as per my paragraph above. btw, most scientists (including einstein) were deterministic prior to quantum. quantum introduces randomness. we can discuss it if you want, but it's not material for this discussion. By definition, free will is neither something caused solely by a prior event nor is it random. and there is nothing else.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #206 by Slick Nick » Fri May 11, 2018 1:51 am

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:making abstractions, computations, probabilistic assessments, reasoning, deciding......none of that means "outside a causal chain reaction". the weird thing is thinking human brains are the only things outside causal chains or randomness in our universe.

it's a paradigm shift. those are hard. takes some rewiring. but it's logical. pretty self evident, even. follow the logic and you'll get there.



No really, I'm not sure I understand what you're pointing to...

Exemple: Let's scratch death penalty.

What I am saying: a bunch of us think about it, deliberate and take a decision. Granted it's skewed by our biaises, but we do understand what we are discussing and the implications of our deliberations.

What you're saying: a bunch of us think about it, deliberate and take a decision, but none of us at any point had any agency over our thoughts, deliberations or decision making, because quantum physics. We do take choices (that we have no agency on) and we do observe consequences and somehow feel about them, because we have bouts of consciousness (not the kind that has agency, but the kind that has appreciation over choices or thoughts outside of out agency).

I'm really lost dog.. I just don't understand how you can reconcile both ideas.


Ok. lemme try to run it step by step with careful attention to terms.

1. notion of self. you are oscillating between two definitions and that is causing the confusion. definition one: a body as a physical apparatus comprised of interconnected cells. a physical machine. definition two: your consciousness, defined as the subjective experiences you have.

2. input goes into the machine, runs through it's circuits per its wiring and out goes output. the machine can do complicated computations and reasoning, weigh options. make probibalistic assessments. heck, it can even have faulty wiring and spew all kinds of nonsense. Can we agree on this? Consciousness is not needed. You can have a robot do this. from the outside, you won't be able to tell the difference. whether it has consciousness or not. shit goes through the complicated wiring and produces output.

3. consciousness. that feeling of awareness. you've agreed that it's part of the wiring. However, physics governs what goes through the wires. a synapse will fire because it is stimulated by a chemical which was released by an electrical impulse which was released by a prior synaptic simulation. Yes? input, sets out a chain reaction in the wiring, leads to output. But here, you make a magic claim. You say, "wait dog, when consciousness kicks in it takes control of the chain reaction. it (consciousness) decides which is the next neutron to stimulate and it does so not based on the prior stimulation but based on "free will" Note that "free will" here is, necessarily, something that acts without being constrained by prior cause otherwise, it's the chain reaction happening. Your notion of consciousness has it "deciding" outside the chain reaction. That doesn't exist*. if it's within the chain reaction, it's not free will. it's just the machine.

what i'm saying consciousness is: a feeling of self awareness that feels like "control" but can't be. the process is automatic, per the physical chain reaction. consciousness is an observer, not the driver. i know it doesn't feel that way. for decisions to be "free", they have to be detached from prior cause (ie. neutron fires, consciousness catches it, decides with no physical prior cause to change the direction of the signal, sends it another way). Your notion of consciousness as an agent is by definition something that breads the causal chain. If it's just the causal chain, it's not free. It's "automatic" (even if it can be doing very complex things).

*i've kept the explanation to causal chains to simplify. In reality, events are governed by cause and effect in the macro world and randomness in the quantum world. very little randomness of the quantum world is carried over in the macro world because possible energy states get constrained (happy to explain if you wish), but some is. So, in reality, the world is governed by a combination of cause and effect and randomness. However, both of them make free will impossible. You don't control prior cause and you don't control randomness.

This help?



I'll have to reread that à tête reposée.. but the first question that came to mind is...

a synapse will fire because it is stimulated by a chemical which was released by an electrical impulse which was released by a prior synaptic simulation. Yes?


How does the wiring know where to direct the impulse and when do the electric impulses know that an idea is wrong?

In other words, you're asked a question: What is the water made of..
You start to answer: well it's made of Carbon and Hydrogen... oh wait, this is wrong, it's made of oxygen and hydrogen!

A robot will not do that, a robot (direct chain) will give you a straight up answer. He will never stop, reflect upon whether his answer is correct or not, reevaluate, and give you a second answer. This interaction, the sort of governing entity upon our automatic processes,is what we call consciousness. But in order to operate, it does have to have some agency over the first firing chain of events. It stops it, resets in time and launches a new one. And how does quantum theory allow that some random causal chain reaction get's stopped and a new one begins? If it's all a game of probabilities, and that the most probable idea gets through, how do we have the ability to create novel ideas? If the answer to to question a) is always a), no further advancement can be made. But if the answer is sometimes a) and other times b), then advancements can be made... and why is that the same firing of particles sometimes ends up a) and some times ends b) and sometimes ends up xyz), and what is the governing entity that decides which result is the better one? Sure it must be randomness, but then how is it deterministic? And what is correct and not correct in terms of abstractions? How can a firing sequence determine what is right and wrong, prior to seeing the result? If the result is the gauge of success, the deterministic model makes little sense.

All I see through all of this, is that there's not a single cause -> effect chain, but retroaction between both.. and that's where I see agency and free will.

Anyhow..
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #207 by Slick Nick » Fri May 11, 2018 2:05 am

Let's take a concrete example:

I ask you some abstract question and you come up with answer a)

Then a minute later I ask you a the same question but ask you to come up with a different answer, you give me answer b)

Then I ask you which of those answers is the correct one.

In order to answer that question, your brain has to create a new pathway, since the former was never asked... and how is the new circuitry born in a deterministic model? does it already exist prior to the new question? And how do you know that the answer you come up with is the right one, you now have to make a bunch of new circuits to determine whether your prior answer was the better one.. I mean, it's endless, it's neuroplasticity, it's thought, it's not scripted, it's novel, and there's always a superior entity that makes sense of all the new pathways, if there wasn't, we would always end up in dead ends.. it's reason, it's consciousness. And it might leave the question aside for a while, because it's not satisfied with the answer, and try a new pathway 50 years later.. and how does it make sense that particles know that they can't come up with an adequate answer and decide to leave it to rest for 50 years. In a deterministic model, you should have an end to a beginning, not a let's reconsider later option, particles don't just take a 50 years break. Consciousness is not the result of the appreciation of thoughts, or a sorry witness, but part of making it through constant retroaction. And I don't understand how, in your model, it's only a witness, since it seems to have a say on the whole process.

And strangely, you don't find any of those processes anywhere else in nature or in less developed forms. You'll find some of it in mammals that developed a larger than usual prefrontal cortex, but mostly in peoplekind with very developed cortexes.. so yeah, in the end, could it be that evolution made it that we have some control over the automata, My answer is maybe yes...
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #208 by Craig » Fri May 11, 2018 8:05 am

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:I mean, your post before that was an appeal to logic without evidence. Like, really?


i've backed up my assertions extensively. i'm happy to discuss with you if you want, greg. or not if this is not of interest to you. i seriously don't care. nick's been discussing with me in a thread set up for that very purpose (by him, actually). you wanna talk, great. you don't, fine.

the appeal to logic is actually incredibly simple.

step one. assumptions: a) the universe is ruled by cause and effect and randomness. b) your decisions and actions are the result of neurons firing in your brain. c) your neurons are part of the universe. do you accept these or do you need "evidence"?

step two. deduction. your neurons fire per a closed causal chain or randomly. your "consciousness" doesn't swoop in and break the causal chain and control the next firings per magic.

this basic reasoning is backed up by growing neuroscientific evidence.

not interested in the discussion? don't have it.


I'm legitimately shocked you were predestined to take the bait on that, doggie.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #209 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 8:25 am

Nicolai, you beautiful mens, you are almost there. Let me propose one piece which I believe is missing from your view. It’s the game changer.

The secret sauces: Botton up happens.

Incredible sophistication, exquisitely adapted to its environment, happens when chance meets environment.

That, my friend, is evolution. It is literally what it is. Chance mutation + natural selection + time = you (and cats).

Random changes to organisms, over extraordinarily long times, make those organisms extremely well adapted to their environment. It’s completely directionless (in hat there is no mind guiding it). Mutations happen because of copy error or, less often, radiation. The vast majority of mutations are neutral. They don’t change anything. The majority of our genetic code is inactive. Almost all the other mutations that have an effect, have a negative effect. They give you cancer or they give you Retarder. A very small percentage of mutations give an organism an advantage in his environment. That survives and takes over the population with time. Environment changes, organisms that are well adapted to prior environment die off. Those that are better adapted to new environment survive.

Relentless, directionless. Chance mutations + pressure from environment = adaptation.

That this process of evolution turned single celled bacteria 3 billion years ago into humens (and fungi) is undeniable. The evidence for it, both from the fossil record and genetic analysis, is overwhelming.

Bottom up happens. Bottom up produces humen brains, with all its neuroplasticity.

Note that in your account, nothing could learn anything without « consciousness » directing stuff. That’s just not true. Babies have tremendous neuroplasticity, much more than adults whose brains have become relatively fixed. In your account, the opposite would be true. Adults, with their superior reasoning skills would have more neuroplasticity because, in your account, reason shapes neural pathways. It’s not reason that shapes neural pathways, it’s the environment in the context of a particular set of genes. Humen genes make baby neurons very adaptable. Out goes baby into the world and the neurons, by trial and error, shape pathways in response to the environment. Babies learn complicated shit. They pick up mandarin on the fly simply by being exposed to it. The interraction of their genes, shapped by evolution -an « autonomous process »- and their environment makes their neural circuits learn and adapt by trial and error. It qualibrates itself to its environment. Without a mind.

This is the greatest insight I can offer you. It’s why you are a theist. You assume a directing mind is needed to guide processes. That’s certainly instinctive. But it’s wrong. Directionless bottom up processes, by the interraction of genes and environment, can and does make great complexity. Even the human brain.

Your argument is « intelligent design ». Which is « this complexity requires an intelligent designer ». Evolutionary science has proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that evolution from single cell bacteria to humens is an « autonomous » process of chance mutations + environment + time.

On robots, new AI is built on the bottom up model. Based on evolution and the way human brains work. It makes its own neural pathways by process of trial and error. You feed it shit tons of data, it makes all kinds of inferences, keeps those that work, drops those that don’t. It deduces the rules by experience. The great leap forward was precisely abandoning a top down « i will write all your processes » approach. It hasn’t evolved the complexity of the human mind and the way it develops is constrained by its code (its genes), but I just want to correct the assumption you have that complexity needs a mind that programs everything. In fact, the opposite is true.

Refuting that is refuting evolutionary science. Litterally. I’m happy to discuss evolution more if you want. That’s the threshold you are at. The leap from « it takes a mind » to « well, actually, so far as we can see there is no mind and everything can be explained without one -in fact you have to remove any notion of an « untethered mind directing things» to explain natural processes ».
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #210 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 8:46 am

I haven't read anything the dog has written either (nor any other of you cunts when it goes beyond 4 lines for that matter).

But the jist of it is since all matter reactions are basically physics, even the matter comprising what we call our autonomous nervous system, then the reactions causing the matter to move aren't independent of a natural physical reactions, and definitely not centralized in a consciousness per individual, though that's how we perceive it.

There.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #211 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 8:56 am

AD wrote:I haven't read anything the dog has written either (nor any other of you cunts when it goes beyond 4 lines for that matter).

But the jist of it is since all matter reactions are basically physics, even the matter comprising what we call our autonomous nervous system, then the reactions causing the matter to move aren't independent of a natural physical reactions, and definitely not centralized in a consciousness per individual, though that's how we perceive it.

There.


Yes. I’ve tried to state simply. But then people are missing pieces and don’t see it, so I try to explain. And here we are. To be fair, to get more than a superficial understanding for something you need to dig into the weeds and test the assumptions. To be fair, I’m a detail type that goes on and on and on...

Wired weird.

:why:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #212 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 9:01 am

You really don't believe in the concept: "more than the sum of its parts". eh dog.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #213 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 9:13 am

AD wrote:You really don't believe in the concept: "more than the sum of its parts". eh dog.


In cats, ants or Neandertals? Or is just homo sapiens that became unthetered from physics?

I’ll believe in souls when I see any form of serious evidence hinting towards it. I just try to follow the evidence.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #214 by Craig » Fri May 11, 2018 9:30 am

AD wrote:I haven't read anything the dog has written either (nor any other of you cunts when it goes beyond 4 lines for that matter).

But the jist of it is since all matter reactions are basically physics, even the matter comprising what we call our autonomous nervous system, then the reactions causing the matter to move aren't independent of a natural physical reactions, and definitely not centralized in a consciousness per individual, though that's how we perceive it.

There.


Duh, who doesn't see that?

Like I said a while back, this argument leads directly to a "there's something about human consciousness that goes beyond physics" argument, which is itself an appeal to supernatural and BAM, it's a religious debate.

All first year philosophy. Covered it in about a week.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #215 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 9:57 am

Craig wrote:
AD wrote:I haven't read anything the dog has written either (nor any other of you cunts when it goes beyond 4 lines for that matter).

But the jist of it is since all matter reactions are basically physics, even the matter comprising what we call our autonomous nervous system, then the reactions causing the matter to move aren't independent of a natural physical reactions, and definitely not centralized in a consciousness per individual, though that's how we perceive it.

There.


Duh, who doesn't see that?

Like I said a while back, this argument leads directly to a "there's something about human consciousness that goes beyond physics" argument, which is itself an appeal to supernatural and BAM, it's a religious debate.

All first year philosophy. Covered it in about a week.


The argument has been going because (i) Nick stated that he doesn’t believe in souls but believes in free will and those are mutually incompatible assertions and (ii) Nick’s upfront and examining his beliefs -most people won’t even think about it and hold the same belief (even most atheists will believe in free will). But this discussion is basically between me and Nick with others interjecting to state they haven’t read anything lolz.

And religion is a discussable subject (assuming people feel like it). It doesn’t make rational sense to hold religious beliefs based on current knowledge. The only rational argument for it is « well, we don’t know everything so maybe in the future we’ll find out it’s mcphee pulling all the strings and we can’t see it ».

But anywho. Do you believe in free will, greg?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #216 by Craig » Fri May 11, 2018 10:00 am

Of course not.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #217 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 10:01 am

Good, robo greg.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #218 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 10:18 am

Dog wrote:
AD wrote:You really don't believe in the concept: "more than the sum of its parts". eh dog.


In cats, ants or Neandertals? Or is just homo sapiens that became unthetered from physics?

I’ll believe in souls when I see any form of serious evidence hinting towards it. I just try to follow the evidence.


Souls? Who's talking about souls you moron?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #219 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 10:20 am

Craig wrote:
AD wrote:I haven't read anything the dog has written either (nor any other of you cunts when it goes beyond 4 lines for that matter).

But the jist of it is since all matter reactions are basically physics, even the matter comprising what we call our autonomous nervous system, then the reactions causing the matter to move aren't independent of a natural physical reactions, and definitely not centralized in a consciousness per individual, though that's how we perceive it.

There.


Duh, who doesn't see that?

Like I said a while back, this argument leads directly to a "there's something about human consciousness that goes beyond physics" argument, which is itself an appeal to supernatural and BAM, it's a religious debate.

All first year philosophy. Covered it in about a week.


No no. I know we all understand that. But Dog assumes he's just stumbled upon something new. Its fascinating to see him "discover" things. He's a lot like my 4 year old.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #220 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 10:20 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
AD wrote:You really don't believe in the concept: "more than the sum of its parts". eh dog.


In cats, ants or Neandertals? Or is just homo sapiens that became unthetered from physics?

I’ll believe in souls when I see any form of serious evidence hinting towards it. I just try to follow the evidence.


Souls? Who's talking about souls you moron?


You see, greg?

That’s what I’m talking about.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #221 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 10:21 am

What’s the sum is greater than the parts, banana?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #222 by Slick Nick » Fri May 11, 2018 10:24 am

Dog wrote:Nicolai, you beautiful mens, you are almost there. Let me propose one piece which I believe is missing from your view. It’s the game changer.

The secret sauces: Botton up happens.

Incredible sophistication, exquisitely adapted to its environment, happens when chance meets environment.

That, my friend, is evolution. It is literally what it is. Chance mutation + natural selection + time = you (and cats).

Random changes to organisms, over extraordinarily long times, make those organisms extremely well adapted to their environment. It’s completely directionless (in hat there is no mind guiding it). Mutations happen because of copy error or, less often, radiation. The vast majority of mutations are neutral. They don’t change anything. The majority of our genetic code is inactive. Almost all the other mutations that have an effect, have a negative effect. They give you cancer or they give you Retarder. A very small percentage of mutations give an organism an advantage in his environment. That survives and takes over the population with time. Environment changes, organisms that are well adapted to prior environment die off. Those that are better adapted to new environment survive.

Relentless, directionless. Chance mutations + pressure from environment = adaptation.

That this process of evolution turned single celled bacteria 3 billion years ago into humens (and fungi) is undeniable. The evidence for it, both from the fossil record and genetic analysis, is overwhelming.

Bottom up happens. Bottom up produces humen brains, with all its neuroplasticity.

Note that in your account, nothing could learn anything without « consciousness » directing stuff. That’s just not true. Babies have tremendous neuroplasticity, much more than adults whose brains have become relatively fixed. In your account, the opposite would be true. Adults, with their superior reasoning skills would have more neuroplasticity because, in your account, reason shapes neural pathways. It’s not reason that shapes neural pathways, it’s the environment in the context of a particular set of genes. Humen genes make baby neurons very adaptable. Out goes baby into the world and the neurons, by trial and error, shape pathways in response to the environment. Babies learn complicated shit. They pick up mandarin on the fly simply by being exposed to it. The interraction of their genes, shapped by evolution -an « autonomous process »- and their environment makes their neural circuits learn and adapt by trial and error. It qualibrates itself to its environment. Without a mind.

This is the greatest insight I can offer you. It’s why you are a theist. You assume a directing mind is needed to guide processes. That’s certainly instinctive. But it’s wrong. Directionless bottom up processes, by the interraction of genes and environment, can and does make great complexity. Even the human brain.

Your argument is « intelligent design ». Which is « this complexity requires an intelligent designer ». Evolutionary science has proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that evolution from single cell bacteria to humens is an « autonomous » process of chance mutations + environment + time.

On robots, new AI is built on the bottom up model. Based on evolution and the way human brains work. It makes its own neural pathways by process of trial and error. You feed it shit tons of data, it makes all kinds of inferences, keeps those that work, drops those that don’t. It deduces the rules by experience. The great leap forward was precisely abandoning a top down « i will write all your processes » approach. It hasn’t evolved the complexity of the human mind and the way it develops is constrained by its code (its genes), but I just want to correct the assumption you have that complexity needs a mind that programs everything. In fact, the opposite is true.

Refuting that is refuting evolutionary science. Litterally. I’m happy to discuss evolution more if you want. That’s the threshold you are at. The leap from « it takes a mind » to « well, actually, so far as we can see there is no mind and everything can be explained without one -in fact you have to remove any notion of an « untethered mind directing things» to explain natural processes ».


:why:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #223 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 10:25 am

Dog wrote:What’s the sum is greater than the parts, banana?


Like a painting is greater than the pixels forming it. A hockey team is greater than its players. A facebook page is greater than the individual photos and streams it links to.

You know.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #224 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 10:29 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:What’s the sum is greater than the parts, banana?


Like a painting is greater than the pixels forming it. A hockey team is greater than its players. A facebook page is greater than the individual photos and streams it links to.

You know.


4 year old toddler: but daddy, no i don’t know. We’re talking about decision making and you are claiming humans have the ability to act free of the laws governig everything else in the universe. How does « the sum of the parts of humans is greater than the parts and I prefer to not call that a soul » beat physics?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #225 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 10:31 am

Slick Nick wrote:
:why:


Too bad, because that’s the answer. You need to understand evolution if you want to understand how adaptive complex systems arise without intelligent design.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #226 by Twitter bArt » Fri May 11, 2018 10:42 am

is any of this going to help is predict who the Habs will draft
:mkbét::lr: :lr:

OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone

It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.

Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."

...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...

Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.


:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #227 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 10:55 am

Twitter bArt wrote:is any of this going to help is predict who the Habs will draft


Probably not. We’re far from being able to artificially simulate the complexity of our universe. It’s actually impossible with current tech. Litterally not enough atoms in the universe to power quantum monte carlo simulations with current computers. Recent paper shows it: http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/ ... 01758.full.

Maybe with quantum computers, if we get there.

So, in the mean time, I just say we draft Zadina.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #228 by Twitter bArt » Fri May 11, 2018 11:01 am

is that your pre-dispositioned atoms firing
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #229 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 11:03 am

Yeah, my best guess is that it is.

What’s asking the question?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #230 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 11:10 am

Dog wrote:
AD wrote:
Dog wrote:What’s the sum is greater than the parts, banana?


Like a painting is greater than the pixels forming it. A hockey team is greater than its players. A facebook page is greater than the individual photos and streams it links to.

You know.


4 year old toddler: but daddy, no i don’t know. We’re talking about decision making and you are claiming humans have the ability to act free of the laws governig everything else in the universe. How does « the sum of the parts of humans is greater than the parts and I prefer to not call that a soul » beat physics?


Am I claiming that dog?

What kind of idiot can't read. Jesus.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #231 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 11:29 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
AD wrote:
Like a painting is greater than the pixels forming it. A hockey team is greater than its players. A facebook page is greater than the individual photos and streams it links to.

You know.


4 year old toddler: but daddy, no i don’t know. We’re talking about decision making and you are claiming humans have the ability to act free of the laws governig everything else in the universe. How does « the sum of the parts of humans is greater than the parts and I prefer to not call that a soul » beat physics?


Am I claiming that dog?

What kind of idiot can't read. Jesus.


You are. It’s implied in your « sum is greater than the parts ». Wanna look for it, break down what you mean. You can call me an idiot all you want. It’s a reflex people have when their deep beliefs are threatened.

How does the sum break the causal chain and if it doesn’t how is it different than the parts?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #232 by Twitter bArt » Fri May 11, 2018 11:56 am

:grabspopcorngif:
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #233 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 11:58 am

Twitter bArt wrote::grabspopcorngif:


The algorithm leading to a ban doesn’t require a quantum computer to crunch on this one.

:danson:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #234 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 12:05 pm

Dog calls us all idiots for 6 months, in 4 posts, freaks out when I call him a moron.

Now I remember why he defended Beaker.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #235 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 12:23 pm

AD wrote:Dog calls us all idiots for 6 months, in 4 posts, freaks out when I call him a moron.

Now I remember why he defended Beaker.


You wanna answer the question? How does the sum break the causal chain?

:danson:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #236 by mcphee » Fri May 11, 2018 12:35 pm

I'm warning you, don't make me come up there........
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #237 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 12:50 pm

Yes Sir.

:(
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #238 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 1:48 pm

My wife just texted me that a bird is ripping our roof apart with its beak. Throwing chunks of tile down.

:paranoid:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #239 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 1:49 pm

Dog wrote:
AD wrote:Dog calls us all idiots for 6 months, in 4 posts, freaks out when I call him a moron.

Now I remember why he defended Beaker.


You wanna answer the question? How does the sum break the causal chain?

:danson:


It doesn't break it!! It makes it beautiful!
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #240 by MP » Fri May 11, 2018 1:53 pm

Dog wrote:My wife just texted me that a bird is ripping our roof apart with its beak. Throwing chunks of tile down.

:paranoid:

Is that the bird's free will or physics?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #241 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 2:01 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
AD wrote:Dog calls us all idiots for 6 months, in 4 posts, freaks out when I call him a moron.

Now I remember why he defended Beaker.


You wanna answer the question? How does the sum break the causal chain?

:danson:


It doesn't break it!! It makes it beautiful!


So we have no free will, but are beautiful? Well, mcphee is beautiful on the inside.

I agree. I likes the arts. Symbolism is strong for the humens. Fait vibrer nos cordes. Sharing symbols is key to understanding the humens. We’re much better meme transmission machines than other animals. Makes for « cultural evolution ». Turns cave mens into agriculture mens into internets mens. Well, into nazi mens too. Pretty cool that we can transmit memes like that.

That what you had in mind?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #242 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 2:02 pm

YES!!!
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #243 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 2:03 pm

MP wrote:
Dog wrote:My wife just texted me that a bird is ripping our roof apart with its beak. Throwing chunks of tile down.

:paranoid:

Is that the bird's free will or physics?


It’s building a nest up there. Tried to attack my wife too.

To answer your question: i’ll try to find out with the autopsy.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #244 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 2:04 pm

AD wrote:YES!!!


Well, you goofball, if you meant we were ipads sending apps to one another, why didn’t you just say so??!
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #245 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 2:13 pm

I do leave the door open to the possibility that we will eventually figure out our code (the deep algorithms of the quantum world) and become the masters of our program. Program programming itself. Not sure whether that’s free will or not but at the point you have control of the underlying physics, you can design the rules you want (including causation). Theoretically. That is kinda our trending direction. Self awareness, even if still passive, is a huge step towards it. Or maybe not. I’m fine with it either way. It’s more wanting to know that drives me. Just the way I’m wired.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #246 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 2:21 pm

Greg, can you be a dear and hack the deep algorithms of the quantum world so we can break free of this dump?

I’ll give you rep!
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #247 by Boring Choice #2 » Fri May 11, 2018 2:55 pm

Dog wrote:I do leave the door open to the possibility that we will eventually figure out our code (the deep algorithms of the quantum world) and become the masters of our program. Program programming itself. Not sure whether that’s free will or not but at the point you have control of the underlying physics, you can design the rules you want (including causation). Theoretically. That is kinda our trending direction. Self awareness, even if still passive, is a huge step towards it. Or maybe not. I’m fine with it either way. It’s more wanting to know that drives me. Just the way I’m wired.


i think the dog was hacked and has been infected with a virus. perhaps the hacker is useless after all.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #248 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 3:03 pm

Boring Choice #2 wrote:
Dog wrote:I do leave the door open to the possibility that we will eventually figure out our code (the deep algorithms of the quantum world) and become the masters of our program. Program programming itself. Not sure whether that’s free will or not but at the point you have control of the underlying physics, you can design the rules you want (including causation). Theoretically. That is kinda our trending direction. Self awareness, even if still passive, is a huge step towards it. Or maybe not. I’m fine with it either way. It’s more wanting to know that drives me. Just the way I’m wired.


i think the dog was hacked and has been infected with a virus. perhaps the hacker is useless after all.


I’ve been tryimg to spread this virus/meme for a few pages now.

:wink:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #249 by Twitter bArt » Fri May 11, 2018 3:22 pm

“That’s why the philosophers warn us not to be satisfied with mere learning, but to add practice and then training. For as time passes we forget what we learned and end up doing the opposite, and hold opinions the opposite of what we should.” – Epictetus
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #250 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 3:56 pm

Twitter bArt wrote:“That’s why the philosophers warn us not to be satisfied with mere learning, but to add practice and then training. For as time passes we forget what we learned and end up doing the opposite, and hold opinions the opposite of what we should.” – Epictetus


Practice forms neural circuits. Bottom up trial and error. Absolutely, Epictus.

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