Dog containment thread and random noises

And some artists..
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1751 by AD » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:10 pm

Except Dempsey fundamentally believes in his schtick.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1752 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:12 pm

Retardé S wrote:
Dog wrote:
Retardé S wrote:I just think Doggo reaches to ascribe the ethno-nationalistic label on this one.


In his article, the one we are discussing, MBC litterally refers to it himself as “nationalism-identitaire”. How in the world am I reaching by calling it ethno-nationalism? It’s literally the argument he’s making, and he’s bot trying to mask it. He’s unapologetic about it. It’s what he does. More troubling to me is this blindness to it some seem to have. I mean, argue for ethni-nationalism if ya wanna...but don’t pretend that’s not his argument when that’s literally what he’s saying.


He's not calling himself that though. He's listing it amongst the ideologies in the PQ. My problem with the ethno-nationalism label is that it implies race just as much as religion, culture ect. which is not something he refers to at all in this article. The identity of the PQ is not as strict as ethno-nationalism, and he's not making the case for it, so why do you feel the need to assign him that label?

Are you assigning someone a belief so that you can yell at them?


There is a distinction between race (as a fully “genetic” concept) and ethnicity (as a social construct with some share ancestry). We’ve discussed this at lenght lately, not going back into it.

Like I said above, I don’t think he’s racist. I never called him racist. I also never called him a nazi.

I called him an ethno-nationalist (which he himself would describe himself as being, I’m sure) and said his little strong disdain for the left, combined with his ethno-nationalism, starts to reek of fascism. I stand by that. I think those qualifications are measured and acurate.

Look at his conclusion, if you think he’s juat beimg descriptive. His conclusion is that the pq should stop considering QS as “pro-sovereignty” brothers because they are pro-sovereignty for societal projects rather than purely “nationalist-identity” considerations. He has a looooong history of writing in a very pro “collective rights of the majority” against minority rights and being pro “nationalisme-identitaire” (as he himself calls it).

Dude’s fairly hardcore. And it freaks me out that so many don’t see it.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1753 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:15 pm

Well I believe Trump is pretty much a conservative liberal.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1754 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:17 pm

Retardé S wrote:
Dog wrote:And did retarded say I exaggerated by calling Trump an authoritarian/fascist wannabe playing the race card? Lol.

Nah you called him a fascist. Fascist wannabe is a new one. By the end of 2024 it will be something else. :trump:


He’s a fascist (whether he realizes it or not) restrained (painfully and in a strenuous manner) by american institutions set up as checks and balances against dictators.

Better?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1755 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:17 pm

Mufasa wrote:Well I believe Trump is pretty much a conservative liberal.


I give up.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1756 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:18 pm

Ethno-nationalist is a word made up recently by the liberals to describe the alt-right ideology. It's actually code word for néo nazi.

Dont throw that word around like that, dog. MBC is a right wing reactionary, but he's not close to anything alt right.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1757 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:21 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
I'm not going through a lengthy independence debate.. let's just agree to disagree.


Okey dokey. The lack of argument beyond the ethnic one is the reason I never sympathized, though. I’ve been asking since forever.


Do you not think that an independent Quebec would be more assertive on the linguistic and cultural side of things?


Ahat does that mean. How do you enhance bill 101? In fact, you could do that now. What else would you do?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1758 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:22 pm

Dog wrote:
Retardé S wrote:
Dog wrote:And did retarded say I exaggerated by calling Trump an authoritarian/fascist wannabe playing the race card? Lol.

Nah you called him a fascist. Fascist wannabe is a new one. By the end of 2024 it will be something else. :trump:


He’s a fascist (whether he realizes it or not) restrained (painfully and in a strenuous manner) by american institutions set up as checks and balances against dictators.

Better?


I'm starting to believe liberals are crazier than the tea party. I remember how the ultra conservatives were calling Obama a Muslim communist, I thought they had lost contact with reality. The libs are giving them a run for their money.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1759 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:22 pm

Mufasa wrote:Ethno-nationalist is a word made up recently by the liberals to describe the alt-right ideology. It's actually code word for néo nazi.

Dont throw that word around like that, dog. MBC is a right wing reactionary, but he's not close to anything alt right.


His own words, how he calls it: “nationalisme-identitaire ».

Distinguish that with ethnic nationalism.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1760 by Slick Nick » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:24 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Okey dokey. The lack of argument beyond the ethnic one is the reason I never sympathized, though. I’ve been asking since forever.


Do you not think that an independent Quebec would be more assertive on the linguistic and cultural side of things?


Ahat does that mean. How do you enhance bill 101? In fact, you could do that now. What else would you do?


Give bubonic AIDS contaminated blankets to everyone on the west side of Boulevard Saint-Laurent
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1761 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:25 pm

Mufasa wrote:Ethno-nationalist is a word made up recently by the liberals to describe the alt-right ideology. It's actually code word for néo nazi.

Dont throw that word around like that, dog. MBC is a right wing reactionary, but he's not close to anything alt right.


Pretty sure that term came about in the 50s when people started digging into the causes of WWII, but whatever. It's definitely been used a lot more recently, but that's probably because a lot more political support is going to people who fit the label in Western countries lately.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1762 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:25 pm

He wants everyone to share québécois identity, ethno nationalist want everyone in their state to be white. They are in differant planes of existence.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1763 by AD » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:26 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Do you not think that an independent Quebec would be more assertive on the linguistic and cultural side of things?


Ahat does that mean. How do you enhance bill 101? In fact, you could do that now. What else would you do?


Give bubonic AIDS contaminated blankets to everyone on the west side of Boulevard Saint-Laurent


You had to start with Shea Weber??! You fucking monster.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1764 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:27 pm

I think he ment me actually.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1765 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:35 pm

Mufasa wrote:I'm starting to believe liberals are crazier than the tea party. I remember how the ultra conservatives were calling Obama a Muslim communist, I thought they had lost contact with reality. The libs are giving them a run for their money.


Wow, el-Trumpo started his political ascendency by becoming the chief spokesperson for the profiundly racist birther movement. He campaigned principally by attacking south american migrants as rapists and murderers and his ridiculous symbolic wall. He repeatedly questioned muslim-american’s allegiances to the US. Hos first act was a « stunt » banning travellirs for various muslim counteies for no reason. His staff is infused with actual nazis and deep racists (Gorka and Miller notably). He’s repeatedly attacked the media as « enemies of the state ». He’s called for criminal investigations and imprisonment of political opponents (as in seriously going off on Sessions, a deep bigot himself) for failing to use the justice department against democrats and for indicting republicans. His campaign head, first national security advisor, personal lawyer and dozens of others have been indictez/convicted/pleaded guilty in all sorts of wrongdoings and most are now cooperating with a special counsel investigation collussion with Russia. Oh, and that soecial counsel was named after he fired the head of the FBI for refusing to swear personal
Allegiance to him and drop a ceiminal investigation on his national security advisor.

I mean, I know you don’t follow the news, but this compares how with right-wing nutjobs calling Obama a Muslim?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1766 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:35 pm

Mufasa wrote:He wants everyone to share québécois identity, ethno nationalist want everyone in their state to be white. They are in differant planes of existence.


You people really need to figure out what an ethnicity is.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1767 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:37 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Do you not think that an independent Quebec would be more assertive on the linguistic and cultural side of things?


Ahat does that mean. How do you enhance bill 101? In fact, you could do that now. What else would you do?


Give bubonic AIDS contaminated blankets to everyone on the west side of Boulevard Saint-Laurent


Answer seriously, pls. What current powers does Quebec currently lack that it would exercise as an idenpendant country to protect its culture? Having foreign embassies? Is that the missing ingredient?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1768 by Slick Nick » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:42 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Ahat does that mean. How do you enhance bill 101? In fact, you could do that now. What else would you do?


Give bubonic AIDS contaminated blankets to everyone on the west side of Boulevard Saint-Laurent


Answer seriously, pls. What current powers does Quebec currently lack that it would exercise as an idenpendant country to protect its culture? Having foreign embassies? Is that the missing ingredient?


Just by virtue of not being part of a larger anglo entity and by stating the supremacy of french language constitutionally and creating more institutions etc.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1769 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:43 pm

He's a big tard, that's for sure. Racist? Pretty much. But the rest of the Russian investigation, Session and the FBI is just poutine interne of the deep state. It doesn't impress me much, and doesn't make him a fascist. I mean was Sarkozy a fascist? He did say a lot of racist things and even put up some of the most violent anti immigration policies. I don't think he was a fascist.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1770 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:46 pm

Lol, deep state.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1771 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:46 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Give bubonic AIDS contaminated blankets to everyone on the west side of Boulevard Saint-Laurent


Answer seriously, pls. What current powers does Quebec currently lack that it would exercise as an idenpendant country to protect its culture? Having foreign embassies? Is that the missing ingredient?


Just by virtue of not being part of a larger anglo entity and by stating the supremacy of french language constitutionally and creating more institutions etc.


Can you be specific about more institutions and etc?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1772 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:50 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Give bubonic AIDS contaminated blankets to everyone on the west side of Boulevard Saint-Laurent


Answer seriously, pls. What current powers does Quebec currently lack that it would exercise as an idenpendant country to protect its culture? Having foreign embassies? Is that the missing ingredient?


Just by virtue of not being part of a larger anglo entity and by stating the supremacy of french language constitutionally and creating more institutions etc.


Quebec’s sole official language is french. Bill 101 is already in place. Quebec has sole constitutional authority over culture, education and civil law (notably). That’s how a federation works. Mutually exclusive (with some exceptions) jurisdictions. The Canadian charter would apply to some measures an Ottawa court deems unconstitutional (it hasn’t deemed bill 101 as contrary to the charter), but Quebec, if it wanted to could always use the notwithstanding clause to put into effect more draconian measures.

So, again, what concrete measure would an independant Quebec put in place to protect its culture that it can’t do right now? I mean, you’re kinda basing your support for sovereignty on this, right? Have examples/specific measures in mind?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1773 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:52 pm

Slick, laisse-toi pas embarquer dans leur petit jeu, j'ai déjà fait la démonstration 1000 fois des bienfaits de l'indépendance.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1774 by Slick Nick » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:53 pm

Craig wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Answer seriously, pls. What current powers does Quebec currently lack that it would exercise as an idenpendant country to protect its culture? Having foreign embassies? Is that the missing ingredient?


Just by virtue of not being part of a larger anglo entity and by stating the supremacy of french language constitutionally and creating more institutions etc.


Can you be specific about more institutions and etc?


I don't know gerg, I'm not a policy maker.. but I'm sure a lot of smart people have a lot of good ideas about it. There plenty of butthurt anglos even inside Quebec that don't even understand the need for bill 101.. a bill that is basically never enforced to it's original purpose and that is bypassed regularly even with the help on provincial governments (écoles passerrelles is an exemple). Francisation centers have been defunded, etc. etc. etc.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1775 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:58 pm

“I don’t know”

“I’ve already shown it a thousand times and will not waste my time naming one or two of the most salient”.

I’m sorry, guys, but be freaking honest (with yourselves first and foremost).
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1776 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:59 pm

I gotta be honest Nick, your argument here is starting to sound a lot like "trust me, we need this for reasons I cannot be specific about."
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1777 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:59 pm

I'm pretty sure that once French speakers are under 20% of the population, things will start to get ugly. Harper already demonstrated that you don't need French Canadians to get the majority, we're getting close to the end of the little party we put together.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1778 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:00 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Craig wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Just by virtue of not being part of a larger anglo entity and by stating the supremacy of french language constitutionally and creating more institutions etc.


Can you be specific about more institutions and etc?


I don't know gerg, I'm not a policy maker.. but I'm sure a lot of smart people have a lot of good ideas about it. There plenty of butthurt anglos even inside Quebec that don't even understand the need for bill 101.. a bill that is basically never enforced to it's original purpose and that is bypassed regularly even with the help on provincial governments (écoles passerrelles is an exemple). Francisation centers have been defunded, etc. etc. etc.


What’s stopping full enforcement of bill 101? The supreme court of Canada has repeatedly held it to be fully constitutional. Who in Ottawa is stopping anything?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1779 by Slick Nick » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:01 pm

Dog wrote:“I don’t know”

“I’ve already shown it a thousand times and will not waste my time naming one or two of the most salient”.

I’m sorry, guys, but be freaking honest (with yourselves first and foremost).


Yes, you are right. Everything is great and couldn't be better. The PLC and PLQ are really the guardians of french language and culture in this beautiful country.

Can we change subjects now?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1780 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:01 pm

Dog wrote:“I don’t know”

“I’ve already shown it a thousand times and will not waste my time naming one or two of the most salient”.

I’m sorry, guys, but be freaking honest (with yourselves first and foremost).


I've had this conversation with peeps here, thousand of times, and I always came out as the winner.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1781 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:02 pm

Mufasa wrote:I'm pretty sure that once French speakers are under 20% of the population, things will start to get ugly. Harper already demonstrated that you don't need French Canadians to get the majority, we're getting close to the end of the little party we put together.


You think once/if Quebec population falls below 20%, the fed government and other provinces will get together and amend the constitution to strip Quebec of its powers on culture?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1782 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:03 pm

Mufasa wrote:
Dog wrote:“I don’t know”

“I’ve already shown it a thousand times and will not waste my time naming one or two of the most salient”.

I’m sorry, guys, but be freaking honest (with yourselves first and foremost).


I've had this conversation with peeps here, thousand of times, and I always came out as the winner.


Sure, why not.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1783 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:04 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:“I don’t know”

“I’ve already shown it a thousand times and will not waste my time naming one or two of the most salient”.

I’m sorry, guys, but be freaking honest (with yourselves first and foremost).


Yes, you are right. Everything is great and couldn't be better. The PLC and PLQ are really the guardians of french language and culture in this beautiful country.

Can we change subjects now?


We can certainly change the subject, but I’ve never in my life got a serious answer out of that question. That’s gotta mean something.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1784 by Slick Nick » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:06 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Craig wrote:
Can you be specific about more institutions and etc?


I don't know gerg, I'm not a policy maker.. but I'm sure a lot of smart people have a lot of good ideas about it. There plenty of butthurt anglos even inside Quebec that don't even understand the need for bill 101.. a bill that is basically never enforced to it's original purpose and that is bypassed regularly even with the help on provincial governments (écoles passerrelles is an exemple). Francisation centers have been defunded, etc. etc. etc.


What’s stopping full enforcement of bill 101? The supreme court of Canada has repeatedly held it to be fully constitutional. Who in Ottawa is stopping anything?


The USSR had great linguistic laws.. didn't prevent the russification of it's republics.

Then after those became independent states, the situation reversed.

Freaking voodoo magic shit.. no one understands how independent states were better at protecting and promoting their cultures vs Moscow.

Come on Doggo.. je comprends que tu aimes le fédéralisme et qu'en général le français a sa place dans certaines parties du Canada.. mais tu peux pas scincèrement et honnêtement croire qu'un Québec indépendant ne ferait pas une meilleure job s'il s'en donnait la mission.

Talking about people not being honest with themselves.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1785 by mcphee » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:09 pm

Mufasa wrote:
Dog wrote:“I don’t know”

“I’ve already shown it a thousand times and will not waste my time naming one or two of the most salient”.

I’m sorry, guys, but be freaking honest (with yourselves first and foremost).


I've had this conversation with peeps here, thousand of times, and I always came out as the winner.

That's because you abruptly declare victory, like my brother used to in ping pong when it was actually only 20-18. Then he'd run upstairs yelling for Mom.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1786 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:14 pm

I'm still gonna say it, when my grandfather was was born French speakers represented 27% of the Canadian population, when I was born it was 24% and nowadays it's a bit over 22%. What about Quebecers having actual political powers? Yeah we have all the provincial fields, but what if Quebecers didn't want an actual other people taking all their decisions for them? The smaller the percentile of the population French Canadians represent, the harder it'll get. And what about not wanting to be an minority? Actual policies are temporary and could change in effects with time.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1787 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:16 pm

That's just Mumu's special brand of trolling, Mike. Pay it no mind.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1788 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:17 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
I don't know gerg, I'm not a policy maker.. but I'm sure a lot of smart people have a lot of good ideas about it. There plenty of butthurt anglos even inside Quebec that don't even understand the need for bill 101.. a bill that is basically never enforced to it's original purpose and that is bypassed regularly even with the help on provincial governments (écoles passerrelles is an exemple). Francisation centers have been defunded, etc. etc. etc.


What’s stopping full enforcement of bill 101? The supreme court of Canada has repeatedly held it to be fully constitutional. Who in Ottawa is stopping anything?


The USSR had great linguistic laws.. didn't prevent the russification of it's republics.

Then after those became independent states, the situation reversed.

Freaking voodoo magic shit.. no one understands how independent states were better at protecting and promoting their cultures vs Moscow.

Come on Doggo.. je comprends que tu aimes le fédéralisme et qu'en général le français a sa place dans certaines parties du Canada.. mais tu peux pas scincèrement et honnêtement croire qu'un Québec indépendant ne ferait pas une meilleure job s'il s'en donnait la mission.

Talking about people not being honest with themselves.


I’m not very knowledgeable on USSR separation of powers between central and local authorities, so can’t speak to that.

As for what I think of the Quebec cultural situation, I think the Quebecois have done an outstanding job of protecting their cultural heritage in 250 years of british rule and Canadian federation and any political danger has long passed.

The threat to Quebec culture comes from the American hegemon, it’s not a political threat from Ottawa.

I find it kinda shoking that many of the threats you name (anglo quebecers, the plq) are actually fully internal to Quebec. Who in the plq is not a quebecer? How would an independent Quebec be more able to deal with internal forces?

I think the current balance is about right. You do need to stay open to international markets and immigration, some pemetration of English is absokutely unavoidable and should not be avoided. As for the protection of french language, in all seriousness, as a guy with pretty good constitutional law knowledge, I don’t see at all what powers Quebec lacks. Checks on french protection would continue to operate in an independant Quebec (ie. internal heterogeneity and US economic and cultural hegemonic forces). Quebec could very well toughen up its language laws now. Nothing is stopping it. Nothing other than internal forces and foreign market and cultural forces. I don’t see how independance changes anything. A federation is not a unitary state. Quebec, the orovince, holds vast exclusive powers, notably in culture and education.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1789 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:18 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
I don't know gerg, I'm not a policy maker.. but I'm sure a lot of smart people have a lot of good ideas about it. There plenty of butthurt anglos even inside Quebec that don't even understand the need for bill 101.. a bill that is basically never enforced to it's original purpose and that is bypassed regularly even with the help on provincial governments (écoles passerrelles is an exemple). Francisation centers have been defunded, etc. etc. etc.


What’s stopping full enforcement of bill 101? The supreme court of Canada has repeatedly held it to be fully constitutional. Who in Ottawa is stopping anything?


The USSR had great linguistic laws.. didn't prevent the russification of it's republics.

Then after those became independent states, the situation reversed.

Freaking voodoo magic shit.. no one understands how independent states were better at protecting and promoting their cultures vs Moscow.

Come on Doggo.. je comprends que tu aimes le fédéralisme et qu'en général le français a sa place dans certaines parties du Canada.. mais tu peux pas scincèrement et honnêtement croire qu'un Québec indépendant ne ferait pas une meilleure job s'il s'en donnait la mission.

Talking about people not being honest with themselves.


He's asking you for a concrete example of something and you came back with Whatabout USSR and a gut feeling.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1790 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:23 pm

Mufasa wrote:what if Quebecers didn't want an actual other people taking all their decisions for them?


It’s not all decisions. In a federation, there is a sharing of mutually exclusive jurisdictions. I certainly understand Quebec wanting to preserve its culture. If the province lacked the powers to do so, that would certainly be problematic. But they have all they need.

Now, why would my interests conflict with greg’s in matters of federal jurisdiction? Does ethnicity dictate best foreign policy? Defense policy? Bankruptcy legislation? I feel way more comfortable alligning with greg than beigne on most if not all of those. :) The conflicts of interest is on cultural and linguistic matters and that is covered by exclusive Quebec jurisdiction.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1791 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:24 pm

Mufasa wrote:I'm still gonna say it, when my grandfather was was born French speakers represented 27% of the Canadian population, when I was born it was 24% and nowadays it's a bit over 22%. What about Quebecers having actual political powers? Yeah we have all the provincial fields, but what if Quebecers didn't want an actual other people taking all their decisions for them? The smaller the percentile of the population French Canadians represent, the harder it'll get. And what about not wanting to be an minority? Actual policies are temporary and could change in effects with time.


That's actually a decent argument. Our federal system was essentially set up to give Quebec a near veto on major changes. As demographics shift, y'all are losing that.

Well, sorta. The rules give Quebec an essential veto, not French speakers. So I guess that doesn't really change unless demographics shift a lot more towards RoC, or Quebec gets in a position where they elect a government that doesn't represent Franco interests.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1792 by Slick Nick » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:25 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
What’s stopping full enforcement of bill 101? The supreme court of Canada has repeatedly held it to be fully constitutional. Who in Ottawa is stopping anything?


The USSR had great linguistic laws.. didn't prevent the russification of it's republics.

Then after those became independent states, the situation reversed.

Freaking voodoo magic shit.. no one understands how independent states were better at protecting and promoting their cultures vs Moscow.

Come on Doggo.. je comprends que tu aimes le fédéralisme et qu'en général le français a sa place dans certaines parties du Canada.. mais tu peux pas scincèrement et honnêtement croire qu'un Québec indépendant ne ferait pas une meilleure job s'il s'en donnait la mission.

Talking about people not being honest with themselves.


I’m not very knowledgeable on USSR separation of powers between central and local authorities, so can’t speak to that.

As for what I think of the Quebec cultural situation, I think the Quebecois have done an outstanding job of protecting their cultural heritage in 250 years of british rule and Canadian federation and any political danger has long passed.

The threat to Quebec culture comes from the American hegemon, it’s not a political threat from Ottawa.

I find it kinda shoking that many of the threats you name (anglo quebecers, the plq) are actually fully internal to Quebec. Who in the plq is not a quebecer? How would an independent Quebec be more able to deal with internal forces?

I think the current balance is about right. You do need to stay open to international markets and immigration, some pemetration of English is absokutely unavoidable and should not be avoided. As for the protection of french language, in all seriousness, as a guy with pretty good constitutional law knowledge, I don’t see at all what powers Quebec lacks. Checks on french protection would continue to operate in an independant Quebec (ie. internal heterogeneity and US economic and cultural hegemonic forces). Quebec could very well toughen up its language laws now. Nothing is stopping it. Nothing other than internal forces and foreign market and cultural forces. I don’t see how independance changes anything. A federation is not a unitary state. Quebec, the orovince, holds vast exclusive powers, notably in culture and education.


Yes and Quebec is ruled 75% of the time by a party that has very little incentive to promote it's culture and language and who's mission has never been structured around it. A new country would write a new constitution, the political spectrum would change, there would be no need to care about Ottawa's approbation... The whole situation would change dramatically.

Anyway, it's not going to happen..

I give up on this, I'm not going to convince anyone and you won't convince me.. so let's just change gears and talk about something else.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1793 by Craig » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:26 pm

Dog wrote:
Mufasa wrote:what if Quebecers didn't want an actual other people taking all their decisions for them?


It’s bot all decisions. In a federation, there is a sharing of mutually exclusive jurisdictions. I certainly understand Quebec wanting to preserve its culture. If the province lacked the powers to do so, that would certainly be problamatic. But they have all they need.

Now, why would my interests conflict with greg’s in matters of federal jurisdiction? Does ethnicity dictate best foreign policy? Defense policy? Bankruptcy legislation? I feel way more comfortable alligning with greg than beigne on most if not all of those. The conflicts of interest is on cultural and linguistic matters and that is covered by exclusive Quebec jurisdiction.


"C'mon guys, let's go fight in another European war to defend British interests!"
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1794 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:28 pm

Craig wrote:
Mufasa wrote:I'm still gonna say it, when my grandfather was was born French speakers represented 27% of the Canadian population, when I was born it was 24% and nowadays it's a bit over 22%. What about Quebecers having actual political powers? Yeah we have all the provincial fields, but what if Quebecers didn't want an actual other people taking all their decisions for them? The smaller the percentile of the population French Canadians represent, the harder it'll get. And what about not wanting to be an minority? Actual policies are temporary and could change in effects with time.


That's actually a decent argument. Our federal system was essentially set up to give Quebec a near veto on major changes. As demographics shift, y'all are losing that.

Well, sorta. The rules give Quebec an essential veto, not French speakers. So I guess that doesn't really change unless demographics shift a lot more towards RoC, or Quebec gets in a position where they elect a government that doesn't represent Franco interests.


To tell you the truth, since the PQ took the identity turn in 2013, I've been sliding more and more toward peace with federalism. I wouldn't even defend indépendance if doggo didn't pull the trap for my beloved Nick.

I would vote yes in a référendum, but I could actually live and die in Canada.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1795 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:30 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
The USSR had great linguistic laws.. didn't prevent the russification of it's republics.

Then after those became independent states, the situation reversed.

Freaking voodoo magic shit.. no one understands how independent states were better at protecting and promoting their cultures vs Moscow.

Come on Doggo.. je comprends que tu aimes le fédéralisme et qu'en général le français a sa place dans certaines parties du Canada.. mais tu peux pas scincèrement et honnêtement croire qu'un Québec indépendant ne ferait pas une meilleure job s'il s'en donnait la mission.

Talking about people not being honest with themselves.


I’m not very knowledgeable on USSR separation of powers between central and local authorities, so can’t speak to that.

As for what I think of the Quebec cultural situation, I think the Quebecois have done an outstanding job of protecting their cultural heritage in 250 years of british rule and Canadian federation and any political danger has long passed.

The threat to Quebec culture comes from the American hegemon, it’s not a political threat from Ottawa.

I find it kinda shoking that many of the threats you name (anglo quebecers, the plq) are actually fully internal to Quebec. Who in the plq is not a quebecer? How would an independent Quebec be more able to deal with internal forces?

I think the current balance is about right. You do need to stay open to international markets and immigration, some pemetration of English is absokutely unavoidable and should not be avoided. As for the protection of french language, in all seriousness, as a guy with pretty good constitutional law knowledge, I don’t see at all what powers Quebec lacks. Checks on french protection would continue to operate in an independant Quebec (ie. internal heterogeneity and US economic and cultural hegemonic forces). Quebec could very well toughen up its language laws now. Nothing is stopping it. Nothing other than internal forces and foreign market and cultural forces. I don’t see how independance changes anything. A federation is not a unitary state. Quebec, the orovince, holds vast exclusive powers, notably in culture and education.


Yes and Quebec is ruled 75% of the time by a party that has very little incentive to promote it's culture and language and who's mission has never been structured around it. A new country would write a new constitution, the political spectrum would change, there would be no need to care about Ottawa's approbation... The whole situation would change dramatically.

Anyway, it's not going to happen..

I give up on this, I'm not going to convince anyone and you won't convince me.. so let's just change gears and talk about something else.


I don’t get it. Why would anglo quebecers and plq voters all of a sudden turn more hardcore protectors of french language in an independant Quebec? Why would internal “opposing” forces just vanish?

And is that even desirable? How much more can tou turn the dial until you cut yourself off from the North American and workd markets?

Litterally, what additional steps need to be taken?
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1796 by mcphee » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:36 pm

Mufasa wrote:
Craig wrote:
Mufasa wrote:I'm still gonna say it, when my grandfather was was born French speakers represented 27% of the Canadian population, when I was born it was 24% and nowadays it's a bit over 22%. What about Quebecers having actual political powers? Yeah we have all the provincial fields, but what if Quebecers didn't want an actual other people taking all their decisions for them? The smaller the percentile of the population French Canadians represent, the harder it'll get. And what about not wanting to be an minority? Actual policies are temporary and could change in effects with time.


That's actually a decent argument. Our federal system was essentially set up to give Quebec a near veto on major changes. As demographics shift, y'all are losing that.

Well, sorta. The rules give Quebec an essential veto, not French speakers. So I guess that doesn't really change unless demographics shift a lot more towards RoC, or Quebec gets in a position where they elect a government that doesn't represent Franco interests.


To tell you the truth, since the PQ took the identity turn in 2013, I've been sliding more and more toward peace with federalism. I wouldn't even defend indépendance if doggo didn't pull the trap for my beloved Nick.

I would vote yes in a référendum, but I could actually live and die in Canada.
Admit it Mu, you want us to remain countrymen. I feel the same way. My Canada includes MU. For some reason , you got me thinking of how my old man was brought up about 5 minutes from where you are, I think he would've been a Mu fan.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1797 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:36 pm

On the USSR, I remmeber my hungarian buddy telling me of Russian being mandatory in Hungarian schools.

Is Ottawa forcing english in Quebec schools? Les exoles passerelles are a bottom up demand (not top down). No political authority is pushing english in schools beyond a basic level. The demand is from people (mostly french quebecers) wanting their kids to learn proper english because US and world economy -not because Ottawa is forcing it down their throats.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1798 by Mufasa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:40 pm

mcphee wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Craig wrote:
That's actually a decent argument. Our federal system was essentially set up to give Quebec a near veto on major changes. As demographics shift, y'all are losing that.

Well, sorta. The rules give Quebec an essential veto, not French speakers. So I guess that doesn't really change unless demographics shift a lot more towards RoC, or Quebec gets in a position where they elect a government that doesn't represent Franco interests.


To tell you the truth, since the PQ took the identity turn in 2013, I've been sliding more and more toward peace with federalism. I wouldn't even defend indépendance if doggo didn't pull the trap for my beloved Nick.

I would vote yes in a référendum, but I could actually live and die in Canada.
Admit it Mu, you want us to remain countrymen. I feel the same way. My Canada includes MU. For some reason , you got me thinking of how my old man was brought up about 5 minutes from where you are, I think he would've been a Mu fan.


Much like I'm waiting for my parents to die so I can leave the heterosexual lifestyle behind, as long as you are alive I'll pretend to be a federalist.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1799 by Slick Nick » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:41 pm

Dog wrote:I don’t get it. Why would anglo quebecers and plq voters all of a sudden turn more hardcore protectors of french language in an independant Quebec? Why would internal “opposing” forces just vanish?

And is that even desirable? How much more can tou turn the dial until you cut yourself off from the North American and workd markets?

Litterally, what additional steps need to be taken?


This is why I didn't want to get into a lenghty debate about this.. everything has been said and resaid about this topic... it's kinda boring and pointless. We've spent the last 12h going back and forth and we're exactly at the same place than we started in.

The language and culture of my ancestors are important to me and I'm 10000% convinced that an independent Québec would do a better job of protecting them than the Liberal Party of Canada. None of your arguments will ever convince me of the opposite so let's just call it a day and talk about something else.
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Re: Dog containment thread and random noises

Post #1800 by Dog » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:44 pm

Okey dokey.

(But it’s not the liberal party of Canada that will protect quebec language and culture, but the provincial government of Quebec that has exclusive jurisdiction on the matter).

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