Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3401 by Germz » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:33 pm

Of course, the Phaneuf and Ryan situation is a real headache if we're scrounging for money to keep both Stone and Karlsson. If buyouts are forbidden, those contracts probably pose the greatest threat to our top two players. But we knew that already.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3402 by Ricard_Persson » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:06 pm

Really strong articles from Ken Warren and Don, yes Don Brennan today. Impressive for the spineless media. It looks like everyone is fed up.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3403 by FH2002 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:54 pm

Karlsson:

“I don’t really know what direction they’re going in because we haven’t really spoken about it, so I can’t really comment about it.”

Ottawa is shitting the bed on the ice, the team President resigned/got fired, the GM got a new 3 year deal, and the owner just announced they are heading in a new direction wrt to scouting and drafting. No one thought to talk to the franchise player about it?

“It starts at the top. You need to sort that bit out before you move anywhere else,” he said. “It’s just a normal way of doing things in any organization, whether it’s the sports business or regular business.”

http://ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ottawa-senators/senators-players-coach-seem-ready-for-whatever-the-future-may-hold

Garrioch presents it as though Karlsson is talking about Dorion, but Karlsson’s talking about Melnyk.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3404 by senate » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:06 pm



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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3405 by Germz » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:14 pm

I've always resisted the Ballard comparisons, but by golly, we are getting there.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3406 by RTWAP » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:55 pm

Lotsa good comments in this thread.

On the Karlsson situation, I do not envy Dorion's position. He may have a mandate and budget to try to re-sign him but how the heck do you put a value on "formerly top three player worldwide, currently about the 15th best D-man, prospects for recovery uncertain."

I'd be strongly tempted to try signing him for two years year at $13M per just to punt the decision to a future when there is (hopefully) more certainty.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3407 by MP » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:41 am

My vote is get Dahlin, then sign and trade Hot Karl.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3408 by Hossa » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:25 am

The Dahlin factor should not be dismissed either. We are well within striking range of that selection and Dahlin is the rare draft eligible who could make a difference immediately. It's one reason to wait until the summer for the bigger decisions. Tkachuk, Zadina and Svechnikov are less game-changers than Dahlin.

I still go back and forth between blowing it up or retooling around Karlsson, Chabot, Stone, Hoffman and Duchene. Part of me just doesn't trust Dorion/Melnyk/Boucher to lead a rebuild. I've long been a proponent of proper rebuilds from the ground up, and what Toronto's done is textbook in that regard, but our management group is not Toronto's. If we're going to blow it up and rebuild completely, I wouldn't want to do it on the cheap with a GM who is a bit simple and a conservative systems coach.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3409 by MP » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:41 am

I like Dorion on the draft front though Formenton and Batherson look to be real pieces to add to White and Chabot. We just need a different GM to handle trades...
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3410 by MP » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:17 pm

Phaneuf scores!
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3411 by RTWAP » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:20 am

Hossa wrote:The Dahlin factor should not be dismissed either. We are well within striking range of that selection and Dahlin is the rare draft eligible who could make a difference immediately. It's one reason to wait until the summer for the bigger decisions. Tkachuk, Zadina and Svechnikov are less game-changers than Dahlin.

I still go back and forth between blowing it up or retooling around Karlsson, Chabot, Stone, Hoffman and Duchene. Part of me just doesn't trust Dorion/Melnyk/Boucher to lead a rebuild. I've long been a proponent of proper rebuilds from the ground up, and what Toronto's done is textbook in that regard, but our management group is not Toronto's. If we're going to blow it up and rebuild completely, I wouldn't want to do it on the cheap with a GM who is a bit simple and a conservative systems coach.


Yah. *sigh* I go back and forth too.

Here are some ideas by friends have been banging around.
  1. Trade Hoffman for RNH.
  2. Trade Zack Smith (plus?) for a first to a marginal playoff team that struggles down the stretch.
  3. Trade Brassard for a first to a marginal playoff team that struggles down the stretch.
  4. Get lucky with one of those picks in the draft lottery and end up with 2 picks in the top 5.
  5. Pick one D and one F early in the first round.
  6. Re-sign Duchene 8/8/8/7/7/6/6/6 (36 years old at end of contract) - AAV 7M.
  7. Re-sign Karlsson 13/12/11/10/10/9/8/7 (37 years old at end of contract) - AAV 10M.
  8. Re-sign Stone 8 years $50M.
  9. Top 6 wingers at start of season are Stone, Ryan, Gaborik, Dzingel. But Dzingel being challenged by any of White, Brown, Batherson, Formenton, and 2018 top forward pick.
  10. Trade Englund and a 6th for one year of Methot (he was traded for a 2nd and 7th). This assumes he isn't permanently broken.
  11. In summer 2019, get a defensive D veteran, but not too old, D-man (McDonagh in the 2019-20 roster below).

Rosters for the next two years:
https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/591341
https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/591365

Assuming MacArthur's salary is paid by insurance, the team cap hit is $11M under the cap next season, and $7.7M under the next season. Both seasons calculated with 23-man rosters.

:paulrus:
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3412 by MP » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:40 am

Karlsson is getting no less than McDavid money ($12.5M for 8). Thus if we get Dahlin, we trade Karl on July 1st after allowing the other GM's to pre-negotiate that extension.

If we don't get Dahlin, we need to try and bridge Karlsson on a 2 to 3 year deal at $13-14M and then if he not broken you sign him to that deal you mentioned above.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3413 by ColinM » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:50 am

Rumour has it Melynk is destined to be the Sens CEO. Clearly what we need is more of Melnyk’s finger prints on the organization.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3414 by senate » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:20 pm

Ricard_Persson wrote:Strange with Anselmi walking out. Obviously because of Melnyk but with the Ottawa media, we’ll never know as they’re afraid to get their press pass slapped by gene. Maybe I’ll sign up to the athletic so that I can pay for some guy who isn’t a writer to punch out a piece in his rec room after he gets home from his 9 to 5 job..


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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3415 by senate » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:16 pm

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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3416 by senate » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:32 pm

Dumont claimed by Tampa.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3417 by RTWAP » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:12 am

MP wrote:Karlsson is getting no less than McDavid money ($12.5M for 8). Thus if we get Dahlin, we trade Karl on July 1st after allowing the other GM's to pre-negotiate that extension.

If we don't get Dahlin, we need to try and bridge Karlsson on a 2 to 3 year deal at $13-14M and then if he not broken you sign him to that deal you mentioned above.


In the last year of his deal McDavid is making $12.5M as a 29 year old.

If Karlsson is re-signing somewhere for eight years then he'd turn 37 during his last year of the deal. I don't think that's justifiable.

I agree a bridge deal makes sense. It might not be likely at this point. And even if it happened I don't think you'd follow it up with a deal that averaging $10M that took him to age 40. Maybe six years instead of eight, or tailing off more at the end.

Or you could trade him away in the next couple of days, do a quick rebuild with all the pieces from the current liquidation, and sign him to an expensive 7 year $91M deal as a UFA on July 1, 2019. At that point we might have enough very good and very cheap young talent to be able to pay him that while also paying for some other good players in the late twenties or early thirties.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3418 by FH2002 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:51 am

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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3419 by Fruity Pebbles » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:28 pm

I just want this to be over. I don't really have much faith in a rebuild.... not after the team has slowly moved to a bare bones run operation where the owner is now openly bitching about how much he's losing on this team. Look at how poorly Buffalo and Edmonton rebuilds have gone with owners that financed their organization top to bottom. And we're bare bones. So if the leftover staff that have stayed on aren't good it's not like we have options.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3420 by The Bytown Boozer » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:13 pm

Jesus fucking Christ this is depressing.

The season ticket drive is going to be an utter disaster.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3421 by RTWAP » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:45 pm

FH2002 wrote:https://twitter.com/travisyost/status/967123003694657536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23967123003694657536


Dorion has continued with Bryan Murray's overly emotional and thin-skinned approach to GM'ing. Remember how petulant Murray sounded when Heatley wanted a trade? Every time Murray opened his mouth to complain he sounded like such a victim, with very little control over the situation.

Likewise when Alfie decided to sign with Detroit. Murray's comments were so defensive. And in hindsight I wonder if the rush to change the narrative lead to them trading for Ryan without doing a proper scouting job on him.

I'll never understand why Dorion felt the need to kick Turris on his way out of town. All he needed to say was Turris is a very good player, and if this opportunity to improve the team hadn't come along then he would have been resigned. Instead they tried to blame it on Turris. Why do that?

Maybe it's Melnyk. Does he fuck with his GM's so much that they never feel in control, always trying to react with insufficient resources and insufficient decision-making power, always trying to justify their actions to a volatile owner?
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3422 by The Bytown Boozer » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:56 pm

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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3423 by Fruity Pebbles » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:20 pm

RTWAP wrote:
FH2002 wrote:https://twitter.com/travisyost/status/967123003694657536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23967123003694657536


Dorion has continued with Bryan Murray's overly emotional and thin-skinned approach to GM'ing. Remember how petulant Murray sounded when Heatley wanted a trade? Every time Murray opened his mouth to complain he sounded like such a victim, with very little control over the situation.

Likewise when Alfie decided to sign with Detroit. Murray's comments were so defensive. And in hindsight I wonder if the rush to change the narrative lead to them trading for Ryan without doing a proper scouting job on him.

I'll never understand why Dorion felt the need to kick Turris on his way out of town. All he needed to say was Turris is a very good player, and if this opportunity to improve the team hadn't come along then he would have been resigned. Instead they tried to blame it on Turris. Why do that?

Maybe it's Melnyk. Does he fuck with his GM's so much that they never feel in control, always trying to react with insufficient resources and insufficient decision-making power, always trying to justify their actions to a volatile owner?


To be fair we gave guys like Fisher a soft landing. We moved Bishop somewhere he could be a legitimate #1. The problem is all this goodwill gets undone as soon by this other stuff.

Duchene looks like a Dorion and Boucher decision and man was it a terrible fucking move. Turris was obviously a really popular guy in that locker room. I guess Dorion and Boucher blew it and assumed because Turris is quiet (seems that way) that he could be moved out for someone else. Huge blunder.

I have nothing against Duchene. He didn't decide this. It was a stupid trade, a center swap to buy an extra year of a center that for some reason our GM and HC liked more... and it's thrown us into a rebuild mode that I'm not optimistic about.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3424 by PredsFan77 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:34 pm

wtf is going on up there
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3425 by FH2002 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:55 pm

Melnyk still drinks. It’s the only explanation.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3426 by Ricard_Persson » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:41 pm

So I'm guessing the players have been in Vegas since after the Caps game?

After a tough season hopefully the coach of GM came out and told them to let loose. If I owned the team it would be mandatory to get loaded up until game time. The players have been through a lot and it hasn't been a fun season. You could see more jump in some players last game after the deadline passed and that weight was removed.

This is a nice road trip, hopefully the players are able to do what they want. The season is over. Have fun.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3428 by Ricard_Persson » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:36 am

Boozer is loaded again.

At least Kanata’s Palladium has outlasted that arena by 5 years and counting.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3429 by PredsFan77 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:10 am

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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3430 by RTWAP » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:43 pm

Fruity Pebbles wrote:Duchene looks like a Dorion and Boucher decision and man was it a terrible fucking move. Turris was obviously a really popular guy in that locker room. I guess Dorion and Boucher blew it and assumed because Turris is quiet (seems that way) that he could be moved out for someone else. Huge blunder.

I have nothing against Duchene. He didn't decide this. It was a stupid trade, a center swap to buy an extra year of a center that for some reason our GM and HC liked more... and it's thrown us into a rebuild mode that I'm not optimistic about.


I think it was a good hockey trade. And players shouldn't have taken it badly since by most external evaluations it was an attempt to improve the team now, and for the future. But I think the tone of the trade changed when Dorion tried to blame it on Turris. Expecting his former teammates to just accept him being thrown under the bus on the way out of town is stupid. It's not that they didn't accept Duchene, but Dorion's crappy comments didn't speed up the transition into the team fabric for Duchene, and they may have increased the tension between the players and management.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3431 by Ricard_Persson » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:17 am

I think Duchene is the third highest skilled center to every play in Ottawa, behind #1 Yashin and #2 Spezza.

I'd probably put him ahead of Spezza on my list, but Spezza was very good in his prime. Duchene's speed in today's game is his biggest asset. It's the reason Spezza's career is almost over. He was never fast. He had great skill and would "slow the game down" like Mario, but you don't really get away with slowing the game down anymore.

Turris is a great guy for sure, but last year when Ottawa lost to the Crosby/Malkin #1-2 punch at center, they knew right there that they wanted to get a true #1.

For the first time in a long time, they have that in Duchene.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3432 by FH2002 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:16 pm

With at least one serious suitor, word on the street is Pierre Dorion asked for nothing for Karlsson at the deadline. He didn’t know what he wanted. Teams were so stunned Ottawa wouldn’t articulate what they wanted, so they moved eventually moved on. Dorion is in over his head as a GM and the gong show will only get worse.

I liked the Duchene trade from a hockey perspective. Duchesne is a much better player, but if Ottawa could have given up White for Duchene I think that was a better choice, Of course, that’s easy to say now.

Trading Turris the weekend of the games in Europe was in poor taste and would;t have sat well with the rest if the players. Let him enjoy this rare once in a lifetime trip with his buddies, come home and then make the trade.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3433 by Ricard_Persson » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:21 am

Yes, unfortunately White will follow the same hype pressure of almost all Senators prospects. He's never been a goal scorer in his life, so don't expect him to become one in the NHL. I wouldn't say he's as bad a Lazar, but what we have is maybe a 15 goal player. 20 on a real hot year, 5-6 years from now when he's NHL settled. Unfortunately like most "first rounders" he'll have trouble living up to the media and fan hype.

He'll be a solid NHLer for a long time, and probably win a Cup with someone. Those defensive guys who are skilled enough to play up and down the line-up always end up as depth guys on really good teams. I see him as a more skilled Chris Kelly. The problem is, I think some people see him as a 25 goal guy.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3434 by MP » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:25 am

The real problem will be he'll hit 20 goals in a contract year and Dorion will pay him like a 25 goal 1st round pick....
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3435 by senate » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:59 pm

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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3436 by The Bytown Boozer » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:47 am

I present to you the All-GTFO'd Ottawa Team

Hossa-Yashin-Alfredsson

Chára-Karlsson

Hašek
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3437 by The Bytown Boozer » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:26 am

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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3438 by FH2002 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:53 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:I present to you the All-GTFO'd Ottawa Team

Hossa-Yashin-Alfredsson

Chára-Karlsson

Hašek


Not one of them was born in Ottawa or the valley. That’s the problem.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3439 by TGR » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:40 pm

senate wrote:Image


Dorion: Look, mommy! I'm a big boy now!
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3440 by mayoradamwest » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:20 pm

:(
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3441 by RTWAP » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:20 pm

So the Sens are locked into second last and will receive a pick somewhere between 1st and 5th. I think that means they're likely to keep the pick. The consensus seems to be that there is a drop off after the 6th or 7th but I guess if the Sens have identified a different drop-off after 4 then there is a chance they might want to keep their 2019 pick instead. If that situation arises then I would expect them to engage with Colorado and try to get them to throw in a pick from a later round in return for the Sens letting Colorado have the 5th pick.

I'm looking forward to the draft lottery, and the draft itself. But maybe even more than that, I am looking forward to hearing about a finalized Lebreton deal later this year. I have high hopes that Melnyk will sell the team once he has its future clarified and has maximized the value of the team. The departure of Anselmi and Melnyk stepping into the role might be due to such a plan being in place. Why stick around if your owner is planning his exit, and why would any experienced new president take on a short-term gig?

Or maybe that's just me reading the tea leaves and finding what I'm looking for.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3442 by RTWAP » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:07 pm

A really interesting discussion of the Senators from an analytics perspective.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/ottawa-1200/ke ... -1.1048819

It turns out that the team last year and this year played pretty much the same. Except last year they got incredible goaltending that covered up their huge imbalance between offensive zone time and defensive zone time.

The Senators give away the puck in the own zone waaaay too much. And aside from Karlsson (and maybe Chabot) their D have way too many giveaways.

The team needs to improve their analytics staff. They need to improve their D (maybe that's mostly from maturation). And they need a different coaching approach, either from this coach or a new coach.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3443 by RTWAP » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:43 pm

More from the same guy, with some stats, and some Gino Reda.

https://www.tsn.ca/video/statscentre-th ... %7E1365223
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3444 by ColinM » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:35 pm

So what do we make of the fact that Colorado traded Duschene in order to start a rebuild only to make the playoffs, where as the Senators fall started on the weekend of the Duschene trade.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3445 by Germz » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:32 am

That Dorion was kind enough to save Joe Sakic's job.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3446 by mayoradamwest » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:50 am

ColinM wrote:So what do we make of the fact that Colorado traded Duschene in order to start a rebuild only to make the playoffs, where as the Senators fall started on the weekend of the Duschene trade.


That the line between good and bad isn’t as much of a divide as thought.

There’s a good core here. Building around Karlsson and a goalie makes a lot of sense. Not sure what to do with Anderson, who is due for a rebound after his traditional biannual crap year.

Stone, Hoffman, duchene is a better start than most. I think the issue is more the utter lack of quality depth. The bottom 6 were a joke this year, and losing the number 2 defenceman meant instead of a top pair and 4 bottom 6 guys we had 1 star and 6-7 bottom pairing guys.

Give this team a bottom 6, a goalie, and someone to play with karlsson and they’d be fine. Appetite is for complete rebuild though...
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3447 by MP » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:20 pm

Dorion has to get Karlsson, Duchene, and Stone to buy into his plan, otherwise IMO there is no option but to deal all three for a rebuild.

Can Enstrom still play? Might be a decent swedish pickup..?

We also need a 1B goalie to backup Anderson.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3448 by ColinM » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:45 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:
ColinM wrote:So what do we make of the fact that Colorado traded Duschene in order to start a rebuild only to make the playoffs, where as the Senators fall started on the weekend of the Duschene trade.


That the line between good and bad isn’t as much of a divide as thought.



That is an interesting thought. Colorado and Ottawa might have had a 30 point gap in the standings but not a 30 point gap in terms of talent. Most of the gap can tie into an active decision to tank back in January. It kind of makes you wonder what swapping 5 wins for 5 loses back in November and December would have done for the season.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3449 by MP » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 pm

ColinM wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
ColinM wrote:So what do we make of the fact that Colorado traded Duschene in order to start a rebuild only to make the playoffs, where as the Senators fall started on the weekend of the Duschene trade.


That the line between good and bad isn’t as much of a divide as thought.



That is an interesting thought. Colorado and Ottawa might have had a 30 point gap in the standings but not a 30 point gap in terms of talent. Most of the gap can tie into an active decision to tank back in January. It kind of makes you wonder what swapping 5 wins for 5 loses back in November and December would have done for the season.


Pretty certain it would have given us 10 more points. :rimshot:

Really though Anderson and our defence were porous. Our defense wasn't great last year, but Anderson held us in it.
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Re: Miss Callaneous' Senatorial Grabuge 2

Post #3450 by senate » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:22 pm








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