ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1001 by MonkeyWrench » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:23 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:
mooseOAK wrote:It’s like the constant line matching has sucked the energy out of the players.

It's pretty remarkable and sad how just about every player on this team besides Matthews, Rielly and JVR have regressed in terms of their offensive numbers. Matthews is a borderline generational player, Rielly is getting PP time on the main unit finally and JVR is also a PP god who has always managed to score irrespective of how good/bad this team is. With how they started the season, I thought most of them would either repeat or surpass last year's totals.


It's difficult to generate the same or better offensive totals playing dump and chase hockey. Babs needs to adjust because right now the style of play that the Leafs employ is not making the best use of its assets.


I understand using that style of play if the opposing team is goin trap.
But even with how much of a beast Hyman is at creating a turnover by forechecking, it's weird that the matthews line does it frequently.
9 times out of 10 I feel comfortable having matthews or nylander carry the puck in.
Why? Because they're fucking good at it.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1002 by clawfirst » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 pm

Its not harming them playing the way that isnt natural to them.............
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1003 by stoney » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:29 pm

clawfirst wrote:Its not harming them playing the way that isnt natural to them.............


Sure seems to be harming the Goals per Game and winning percentage.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1004 by Curry Rage » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:57 am

The aim was likely to effect the GA/G stat.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1005 by Curry Rage » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:58 am

clawfirst wrote:Its not harming them playing the way that isnt natural to them.............

Gotta learn. I bet the reigns loosen a little soon. Making up for little practice time.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1006 by Thomas Malthus » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:57 am

Pay no attention to it being Burtch, it's zone exits and entry data from the Shutdown Line guy.

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1007 by LeafOfBread » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 am

Thomas Malthus wrote:Pay no attention to it being Burtch, it's zone exits and entry data from the Shutdown Line guy.


You can use the tool yourself and look up players. Sample sizes are small though because i assume the guy doesn't track every single game.

Jake has had very poor results this year though which is weird because normally he's a strong transition D. Polak is comedy gold :donger:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/B995B ... y_count=no
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1008 by Thomas Malthus » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:13 am

LeafOfBread wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:Pay no attention to it being Burtch, it's zone exits and entry data from the Shutdown Line guy.


You can use the tool yourself and look up players. Sample sizes are small though because i assume the guy doesn't track every single game.

Jake has had very poor results this year though which is weird because normally he's a strong transition D. Polak is comedy gold :donger:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/B995B ... y_count=no


Thanks LOB. I didn't know he had a Tableau up, though it was something available to patreon supporters.

Mo looks fucking good.

Borgman looks pretty decent so far too by these numbers. His play seems to have slipped a bit of late but I'm pretty optimistic about him going forward. Seems like he could be a great third pairing defender. I'm not sure about his upside as a top four since he's sheltered heavily but we might see what that looks like next year.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1009 by vf » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:57 am

stoney wrote:
clawfirst wrote:Its not harming them playing the way that isnt natural to them.............


Sure seems to be harming the Goals per Game and winning percentage.


There will be pain.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1010 by stoney » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:32 am

vf wrote:
stoney wrote:
clawfirst wrote:Its not harming them playing the way that isnt natural to them.............


Sure seems to be harming the Goals per Game and winning percentage.


There will be pain.


Hopefully for a payoff
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1011 by Curry Rage » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:46 am

LeafOfBread wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:Pay no attention to it being Burtch, it's zone exits and entry data from the Shutdown Line guy.


You can use the tool yourself and look up players. Sample sizes are small though because i assume the guy doesn't track every single game.

Jake has had very poor results this year though which is weird because normally he's a strong transition D. Polak is comedy gold :donger:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/B995B ... y_count=no


Hmm...he might be comedy gold but these suggest that Carrick and Hainsey aren't much different. Not surprised to see Borgman look good on these. He's been getting soft minutes, but his ability to move the puck out of trouble has been consistent since camp.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1012 by vf » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:50 am

stoney wrote:
vf wrote:
stoney wrote:
Sure seems to be harming the Goals per Game and winning percentage.


There will be pain.


Hopefully for a payoff


Winning in the regular season and playoffs are different things. I think he's trying to get them to be able to win during the latter.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1013 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:09 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:Pay no attention to it being Burtch, it's zone exits and entry data from the Shutdown Line guy.


You can use the tool yourself and look up players. Sample sizes are small though because i assume the guy doesn't track every single game.

Jake has had very poor results this year though which is weird because normally he's a strong transition D. Polak is comedy gold :donger:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/B995B ... y_count=no


Hmm...he might be comedy gold but these suggest that Carrick and Hainsey aren't much different. Not surprised to see Borgman look good on these. He's been getting soft minutes, but his ability to move the puck out of trouble has been consistent since camp.


Hainsey plays with Reilly which no doubt lowers his totals as Mo is the primary breakout option. Likewise with Z and Gardiner.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1014 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:13 pm

vf wrote:
stoney wrote:
vf wrote:
There will be pain.


Hopefully for a payoff


Winning in the regular season and playoffs are different things. I think he's trying to get them to be able to win during the latter.


The problem is that it isn't maximizing the strengths of this team. On the contrary it appears to be playing against them, and the results have been damning. I suppose I just have a hard time seeing a strategy that has failed miserably in the regular season suddenly working in the playoffs when the competition is higher and the margin for error smaller.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1015 by LeafOfBread » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:25 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:Pay no attention to it being Burtch, it's zone exits and entry data from the Shutdown Line guy.


You can use the tool yourself and look up players. Sample sizes are small though because i assume the guy doesn't track every single game.

Jake has had very poor results this year though which is weird because normally he's a strong transition D. Polak is comedy gold :donger:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/B995B ... y_count=no


Thanks LOB. I didn't know he had a Tableau up, though it was something available to patreon supporters.

Mo looks fucking good.

Borgman looks pretty decent so far too by these numbers. His play seems to have slipped a bit of late but I'm pretty optimistic about him going forward. Seems like he could be a great third pairing defender. I'm not sure about his upside as a top four since he's sheltered heavily but we might see what that looks like next year.

IMO Borgman's job has been harder because of the fact that his partner is Polak. There is more pressure on Borgman to move the puck as his partner is not really capable of doing so. If he can get a bit quicker, I definitely see 2nd pairing potential in him at least. His hands are deceptively good and he's strong as fuck and generally postionally sound.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1016 by Whit Dickman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:41 pm

I wonder if Dermott will be groomed as a RH d-man. He would make a good partner with Borgmann.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1017 by Thomas Malthus » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:42 pm

Even if guys like Hainsey or Carrick weren't getting lots of opportunities, if they were good at this, you'd think that it would show up in the percentage stat (not necessarily, but I think this is a good prior). That it doesn't show up in the percentage stat suggests that Hainsey, Polak, and Carrick struggle to transition the puck. This might not surprise you based on the eye test but it certainly adds to my question about where exactly the offensive part of Carrick's game comes from (based on those charts it's from his shots which is about the only thing he does well).
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1018 by MonkeyWrench » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:01 pm

Most league executives believe that, unless things take a sudden and ugly turn, the Maple Leafs are likely to hold on to winger in an effort to go as deep as the team can in the playoffs, TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger writes.

..

As one NHL manager pointed out, if the Leafs were to move all three at the deadline the return might be significant enough to roll those assets over on the draft floor in June into a top-pair defenceman or other pieces that might advance Toronto's chances of evolving into a legit contender next season.

The more likely scenario: the Leafs decide to sit tight and continue to develop the team while hoping their latest dive into the “own rental” pool pays off.


Next weeks article: Sky is blue in leaf land.

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1019 by Curry Rage » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:15 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Hainsey plays with Reilly which no doubt lowers his totals as Mo is the primary breakout option. Likewise with Z and Gardiner.


The same would hold for Polak/Borgman.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1020 by Curry Rage » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:15 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
stoney wrote:
Hopefully for a payoff


Winning in the regular season and playoffs are different things. I think he's trying to get them to be able to win during the latter.


The problem is that it isn't maximizing the strengths of this team. On the contrary it appears to be playing against them, and the results have been damning. I suppose I just have a hard time seeing a strategy that has failed miserably in the regular season suddenly working in the playoffs when the competition is higher and the margin for error smaller.


It's not a long term strategy, it's practice.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1021 by Curry Rage » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:Even if guys like Hainsey or Carrick weren't getting lots of opportunities, if they were good at this, you'd think that it would show up in the percentage stat (not necessarily, but I think this is a good prior). That it doesn't show up in the percentage stat suggests that Hainsey, Polak, and Carrick struggle to transition the puck. This might not surprise you based on the eye test but it certainly adds to my question about where exactly the offensive part of Carrick's game comes from (based on those charts it's from his shots which is about the only thing he does well).


I was saying this somewhere. His offense seems to come from his shot and his PP game, but he doesn't see any PP time with the Leafs.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1022 by vf » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:26 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
stoney wrote:
Hopefully for a payoff


Winning in the regular season and playoffs are different things. I think he's trying to get them to be able to win during the latter.


The problem is that it isn't maximizing the strengths of this team. On the contrary it appears to be playing against them, and the results have been damning. I suppose I just have a hard time seeing a strategy that has failed miserably in the regular season suddenly working in the playoffs when the competition is higher and the margin for error smaller.


Is a coach better off getting players to improve on the things they're bad at or focus on the things they're good at?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1023 by Thomas Malthus » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:03 pm

Burtch was on twitter earlier exploring what he'd trade for an improvement on the right side. Came to the conclusion that he'd trade Gardiner + if the return was established player and either Dermott or Borgman if the return was another guy at a similar stage of development. Then said at one point he'd consider Rielly + for Trouba but that it was likely an overpay.

I'm not trading Gardiner for Tanev. Tanev is a better version of Zaitsev but has a rough injury history and doesn't look like a player who will age well. I'd like him but probably not at the prices he'd command. I'd easily trade Gardiner + Brown + something for Trouba. I wouldn't trade Rielly for Trouba. I'd be open to trading Gardiner in a package for Tyson Barrie. I'm interested in Gudas but I don't know how likely Philly is to trade him.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1024 by Curry Rage » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:29 pm

I imagine Rielly is as close to untouchable as we have on this club outside of Matthews. They've put so much time and effort into developing him and he's starting to turn into a dominant player. Moving him just opens up another huge hole you have to fill. I think Gardiner has more-or-less peaked. I'd move him for the right RS guy. We have enough good LS options (like Dermott) coming along to make up for his loss soon enough.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1025 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:34 pm

Gards for Barrie?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1026 by Zardoz » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:03 pm

I'd trade Gards for Barrie, kind of lateral, but I can't stand Gardiner...
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1027 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:17 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
Winning in the regular season and playoffs are different things. I think he's trying to get them to be able to win during the latter.


The problem is that it isn't maximizing the strengths of this team. On the contrary it appears to be playing against them, and the results have been damning. I suppose I just have a hard time seeing a strategy that has failed miserably in the regular season suddenly working in the playoffs when the competition is higher and the margin for error smaller.


It's not a long term strategy, it's practice.


I don't see the point, it's an ineffective strategy. Babcock himself has always said that the best defense is a good offense, and playing dump and chase hockey is not conducive to good offense. It's a tactic that bad teams utilize because they lack the skill or pace to gain controlled entry.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1028 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:19 pm

vf wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
Winning in the regular season and playoffs are different things. I think he's trying to get them to be able to win during the latter.


The problem is that it isn't maximizing the strengths of this team. On the contrary it appears to be playing against them, and the results have been damning. I suppose I just have a hard time seeing a strategy that has failed miserably in the regular season suddenly working in the playoffs when the competition is higher and the margin for error smaller.


Is a coach better off getting players to improve on the things they're bad at or focus on the things they're good at?


I'm a proponent of building a strategy that focuses on your strengths, but I know what you are trying to say. My problem is this, you can improve your defensive play without reverting to dump and chase hockey and abandoning most of what made the Leafs a dynamic offensive team. I'm also not a fan of how reactive Babcock has been this season, I would like to see him line match less and force the opposition to adjust to the Leafs.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1029 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:29 pm

Zardoz wrote:I'd trade Gards for Barrie, kind of lateral, but I can't stand Gardiner...


Barrie is prone to many of the same issues, and is not as strong defensively. That said, if it enables the Leafs to slot in Dermott and remove Polak the trade-off is more than worth it.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1030 by vf » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:36 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
The problem is that it isn't maximizing the strengths of this team. On the contrary it appears to be playing against them, and the results have been damning. I suppose I just have a hard time seeing a strategy that has failed miserably in the regular season suddenly working in the playoffs when the competition is higher and the margin for error smaller.


Is a coach better off getting players to improve on the things they're bad at or focus on the things they're good at?


I'm a proponent of building a strategy that focuses on your strengths, but I know what you are trying to say. My problem is this, you can improve your defensive play without reverting to dump and chase hockey and abandoning most of what made the Leafs a dynamic offensive team. I'm also not a fan of how reactive Babcock has been this season, I would like to see him line match less and force the opposition to adjust to the Leafs.


I believe it to be team wide punishment. Play fast, play hard, feel good about yourselves. Or else. You want freedom offensively? Listen very carefully on the defensive end. Or else.
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Re: RE: Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1031 by Zardoz » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:40 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Zardoz wrote:I'd trade Gards for Barrie, kind of lateral, but I can't stand Gardiner...


Barrie is prone to many of the same issues, and is not as strong defensively. That said, if it enables the Leafs to slot in Dermott and remove Polak the trade-off is more than worth it.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Lateral trade style wise, but shifts the pairings nicely. Dermott/Barrie could be a really nice, mobile, offensive pair.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1032 by edgar_dong » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:57 pm

I haven't been able to watch my Leafs in a while so I cannae comment on their recent performance, but it seems to me you folks are almost completely disregarding the other element on the ice: the opposition. Is Will Nylander, for example, consistently hitting the red line uncontested and tossing it into the corner, or is the opposition perhaps occasionally "forcing" his "hand"? Even Patty Kane knows he can't walk across the blue line at will.
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1033 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:08 pm

vf wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
Is a coach better off getting players to improve on the things they're bad at or focus on the things they're good at?


I'm a proponent of building a strategy that focuses on your strengths, but I know what you are trying to say. My problem is this, you can improve your defensive play without reverting to dump and chase hockey and abandoning most of what made the Leafs a dynamic offensive team. I'm also not a fan of how reactive Babcock has been this season, I would like to see him line match less and force the opposition to adjust to the Leafs.


I believe it to be team wide punishment. Play fast, play hard, feel good about yourselves. Or else. You want freedom offensively? Listen very carefully on the defensive end. Or else.


Fingers crossed because the style of hockey we have played since November is difficult to watch.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1034 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:11 pm

edgar_dong wrote:I haven't been able to watch my Leafs in a while so I cannae comment on their recent performance, but it seems to me you folks are almost completely disregarding the other element on the ice: the opposition. Is Will Nylander, for example, consistently hitting the red line uncontested and tossing it into the corner, or is the opposition perhaps occasionally "forcing" his "hand"? Even Patty Kane knows he can't walk across the blue line at will.


It's definitely a system thing because the Leafs were posting the same controlled entry rates in October as they did last season, and then in November suddenly went from one of the better controlled entry teams to one of the worst, and one of the lowest dump and chase teams to one of the highest. If it was an opposition thing it wouldn't have happened that fast and been that rapid.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1035 by Curry Rage » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:26 am

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
The problem is that it isn't maximizing the strengths of this team. On the contrary it appears to be playing against them, and the results have been damning. I suppose I just have a hard time seeing a strategy that has failed miserably in the regular season suddenly working in the playoffs when the competition is higher and the margin for error smaller.


It's not a long term strategy, it's practice.


I don't see the point, it's an ineffective strategy. Babcock himself has always said that the best defense is a good offense, and playing dump and chase hockey is not conducive to good offense. It's a tactic that bad teams utilize because they lack the skill or pace to gain controlled entry.


It's an effective strategy depending on the circumstances. We *know* this team can run and gun. Everybody knows it. So, like in the first game against OTT months ago, they just set up in the neutral zone and make us turn it over and counterattack. If you're going to get through 4 rounds of playoffs against different types of team, you need to be able to chip and chase when the game requires it. No Babcock team I've ever watched ONLY played dump and chase all the time. Even this one isn't doing it all the time.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1036 by Zardoz » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:29 am

Jack Johnson wants out of Ohio... Interesting.

Having not looked into it much, has he become a decent shut-down guy? What are his numbers like? He's eating a lot of minutes on a pretty good team, he's a top 4 guy with low offensive production this year. That's about all I've got.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1037 by clawfirst » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:34 am

They wont trade him. He's their rental
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1038 by Thomas Malthus » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:05 pm

That dude updated his visualization to include zone denials (how well a guy defends the blue line) for defenders. On the Leafs Hainsey tops the blue line in breakups/60 but seems to allow a high share of entries to be with control. This seems to indicate that teams target his side more frequently than Rielly’s and that it seems to pay off for them. Zaitsev is very poor along all three measures of zone denials. Jake is hovering around average in all three, tending just above. Rielly is slightly better than Jake, much better at forcing dump ins against which is even more impressive considering the quality of competition he faces. Borgman is really doing well, of course in soft minutes. That pretty much all checks out given what we talk about in GDTs.

On to some trade targets.

Tanev is a monster at forcing dump ins but doesn’t seem to break play up at the blue line, could be that teams target his partners for entry similar to Hainsey with Rielly. He has good shot assist numbers but not shot numbers and currently carries the puck into the offensive zone well but out of the zone more than he should. Would look great paired with Rielly.

Barrie is about as good as Jake, maybe a like better, at defending the blue line and forcing dump ins. I don’t think I need to talk about how good he is offensively. I agree with you fellas that he could look good with Dermott, I also think if we want to break Dermott in he would look good with Hainsey. Would be expensive..

Johnson isn’t good here but is good at transitioning the puck, so more of what we already have. I’m not high on this option.

Damon Severson is great at defending the blueline, not great at exiting with control but is great at entering the offensive zone and okay at creating offence once there. I like this option a lot. Seems to be on the outs with NJ, would look great paired with Gardiner, on second pair.

Gudas is okay at defending the blueline, would be the fourth best Leaf at it, but isn’t great in transition an generates offence through his own shots similar to Carrick. I’d like this move depending on the price. Seems like a nice stop gap option and what Babs thinks Polak is.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1039 by LeafOfBread » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:37 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:That dude updated his visualization to include zone denials (how well a guy defends the blue line) for defenders. On the Leafs Hainsey tops the blue line in breakups/60 but seems to allow a high share of entries to be with control. This seems to indicate that teams target his side more frequently than Rielly’s and that it seems to pay off for them. Zaitsev is very poor along all three measures of zone denials. Jake is hovering around average in all three, tending just above. Rielly is slightly better than Jake, much better at forcing dump ins against which is even more impressive considering the quality of competition he faces. Borgman is really doing well, of course in soft minutes. That pretty much all checks out given what we talk about in GDTs.

On to some trade targets.

Tanev is a monster at forcing dump ins but doesn’t seem to break play up at the blue line, could be that teams target his partners for entry similar to Hainsey with Rielly. He has good shot assist numbers but not shot numbers and currently carries the puck into the offensive zone well but out of the zone more than he should. Would look great paired with Rielly.

Barrie is about as good as Jake, maybe a like better, at defending the blue line and forcing dump ins. I don’t think I need to talk about how good he is offensively. I agree with you fellas that he could look good with Dermott, I also think if we want to break Dermott in he would look good with Hainsey. Would be expensive..

Johnson isn’t good here but is good at transitioning the puck, so more of what we already have. I’m not high on this option.

Damon Severson is great at defending the blueline, not great at exiting with control but is great at entering the offensive zone and okay at creating offence once there. I like this option a lot. Seems to be on the outs with NJ, would look great paired with Gardiner, on second pair.

Gudas is okay at defending the blueline, would be the fourth best Leaf at it, but isn’t great in transition an generates offence through his own shots similar to Carrick. I’d like this move depending on the price. Seems like a nice stop gap option and what Babs thinks Polak is.


I'm happy that Rielly has improved in this regard. Previous seasons he was poor at both giving up the zone and shot suppression and for the first time ever he's actually producing good/decent results in both areas while still playing hard competition. Such a joy being able to watch him.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1040 by Whit Dickman » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:24 pm

Johnson for Bozak would help, right?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1041 by Honus Joglund » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:48 pm

I'd rather keep Bozak and get a defenseman who isn't awful. Johnson is like a poor man's Dion. He's even dumberer, worse defensively and his offense has vanished even worse than Dion's. The last three years he's averaged 19 points per 82 games. :rudy:

It's also a bad sign that he's trying to force a trade away from a contender because he's worried about money. Do you want to add a guy for a playoff run who's number one concern is July 1st? Hard pass.

Hjalmarsson or bust.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1042 by Honus Joglund » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:46 pm

Rielly - Hjalmarsson
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Dermott - Hainsey

Rielly - Hainsey
Hjalmarsson - Zaitsev
Gardiner - Dermott

:fistbull:
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1043 by Thomas Malthus » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:23 pm

Hjalmarsson looks not good this year. Not sure that he'd be a great pickup. Could be that playing on Arizona kills all numbers but it could be that he's simply regressing because of his age.

Some options.

Small trade for Franson to improve bottom pairing.

Rielly - Hainsey
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Borgman - Franson

Trade Gardiner + (Soshnikov?) for Barrie to give us a better handedness balance.

Rielly - Hainsey
Dermott - Barrie
Borgman - Zaitsev
Carrick

Trade futures + salary player (I think we need this to make the deal work) for Tanev.

Rielly - Tanev
Gardiner - Hainsey
Borgman - Zaitsev
Carrick/Dermott

Trade Gardiner + 1st + Kapanen/Brown for Trouba.

Rielly - Hainsey
Dermott - Trouba
Borgman - Zaitsev
Carrick
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1044 by Honus Joglund » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:12 pm

I watched Hjalmarsson last night against Edmonton and he looked like the same old Hjalmarsson to me. He played ~20 minutes with Chychrun and they were Arizona's best pairing. He's still mobile and, from what I saw, there's no doubt that he is still a top four d-man.

You have to keep in mind that until last night every game Hjalmarsson had played this year was in the middle of Arizona's horrific start, where they didn't have a regulation win until their 21st game. The only player in Arizona that has had a good season is Keller. OEL has been awful and he's already -37. Domi has 19 pts in 44 games. Stepan is on pace for his worst year since he was a rookie. I don't believe that all of these good players suddenly got really bad at the same time. Judging anyone on that team is like judging Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, etc. during Horachek's run. All of these guys were caught up in the vortex of suck and clearly it wasn't a true indication of them as players.

Even if Hjalmarsson were a disappointment, he's a UFA in 2019 and by then the Leafs should be expecting Dermott, Borgman and Liljegren to take more responsibility.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1045 by AGENT ZERO » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:36 am

Yeah, I'm not ready to give up on Hjalmarsson after 18 games.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1046 by Honus Joglund » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:45 am

Just watched Arizona/San Jose and Hjalmarsson had another solid game. For a while they were mixing up their d-pairings every shift and he was playing with pretty much everyone before they finally settled on Connauton/Hjal in the last 30 minutes. He played a shade under 20 minutes again. He's still very active trying to block passing lanes, still breaking up passes, still good at closing distance with his stick and he's still blocking a ton of shots. He had a really good play where he broke up a 2-on-1 after Connauton threw the puck away.

I don't think he looks worn out, like Brent Seabrook for example. I think he's a perfect stay-at-home top-four d-man and PKer for the Leafs.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1047 by Curry Rage » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:51 am

OEL looked like he'd stopped giving a fuck when we last played them. Poor guy.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1048 by Whit Dickman » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:26 pm

What would we need to give up for Hjalmarsson, though?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1049 by stoney » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:09 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:What would we need to give up for Hjalmarsson, though?


Halak and a 2nd
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #1050 by AGENT ZERO » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:41 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:What would we need to give up for Hjalmarsson, though?


2nd + prospect or 1st rounder would be my guess.

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