The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20101 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:17 am

LeafOfBread wrote:Should've traded him last offseason sigh


Should have traded him next year :colbert:


I do wish we knew what happened. Very strange.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20102 by clawfirst » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:33 am

mayoradamwest wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:Should've traded him last offseason sigh


Should have traded him next year :colbert:


I do wish we knew what happened. Very strange.

They saved 18 million dollars. Thats what happened.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20103 by Craig » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:54 am

They legit thought they might contend this year. That's what ultimately led us here. Then injuries ruined his value, to the point where they don't want to risk qualifying him at 18 million because they think the money is better spent elsewhere. So they trade him for the best they can get, which is apparently almost nothing. It all makes sense, except the part where they thought they could contend this year.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20104 by vf » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:09 am

The ptbnl is most likely conditional on Donaldsons productivity and how far the Indians make it in the playoffs. If it is I don't understand shitting on the deal, it would be the best path to maximizing a return for him.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20105 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:25 am

clawfirst wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:Should've traded him last offseason sigh


Should have traded him next year :colbert:


I do wish we knew what happened. Very strange.

They saved 18 million dollars. Thats what happened.


I may be one of the few who do not mind that they held onto him. He had lower value after last year... i just dont undsrstand why the 18m is out of the question for him.



More upset about the granderson deal. For such a great human, they only got half an Oromoloye? Le sigh...
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20106 by vf » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:31 am

They got one unfinished Oluwademilade Oluwadamilola Orimoloye. He's a raw Anthony Alford.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20107 by MonkeyWrench » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:34 am

mayoradamwest wrote:
clawfirst wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
Should have traded him next year :colbert:


I do wish we knew what happened. Very strange.

They saved 18 million dollars. Thats what happened.


I may be one of the few who do not mind that they held onto him. He had lower value after last year... i just dont undsrstand why the 18m is out of the question for him.



More upset about the granderson deal. For such a great human, they only got half an Oromoloye? Le sigh...


Creating the scenario where JD would be sent a QO has many layers. Due to his level of apparent frustration with his injury aswell as Jays staff, even though it's 18m, he would be motivated to seek a job elsewhere. However, he's also a very business/detail oriented man. So knowing how low his current value might be on the market, maybe he thinks it's wise for him to take the QO and reset his value for the next trade deadline/offseason.

In the end, I would have had no issue with him getting a qualifying offer. Would have been ugly? Sure. He would be especially upset if my dream scenario played out and he rejected the QO, adding another negative for teams that signed him. But it's all about improving the team.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20108 by clawfirst » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:59 am

mayoradamwest wrote:
clawfirst wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
Should have traded him next year :colbert:


I do wish we knew what happened. Very strange.

They saved 18 million dollars. Thats what happened.


I may be one of the few who do not mind that they held onto him. He had lower value after last year... i just dont undsrstand why the 18m is out of the question for him.



More upset about the granderson deal. For such a great human, they only got half an Oromoloye? Le sigh...

Just more failed asset management prioritising profit. Rogers.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20109 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:30 pm

Managing injured assets will never end well... :dunno:
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20110 by clawfirst » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:00 pm

This isnt the snes and a leveraged melnyk ,maw. This is the 5thish largest media market in north america acting like the Brewers.

Fuck em.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20111 by Honus Joglund » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:39 pm



27 year old who missed the season with Tommy John. He had a 6.58 ERA/1.67 WHIP in AAA last year.

This is like the Clemens or Cone trades. Literally giving a star player away for nothing.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20112 by AGENT ZERO » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:50 pm

Yeah, they mishandled this badly no matter how you look at it. If the Jays weren't serious about resigning him to a competitive offer they should have traded him last year.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20113 by AGENT ZERO » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:53 pm

Craig wrote:They legit thought they might contend this year. That's what ultimately led us here. Then injuries ruined his value, to the point where they don't want to risk qualifying him at 18 million because they think the money is better spent elsewhere. So they trade him for the best they can get, which is apparently almost nothing. It all makes sense, except the part where they thought they could contend this year.


I dont believe for a moment that they thought they were any better than a potential contender for the second WC aka an 85 win team.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20114 by mayoradamwest » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:37 am

clawfirst wrote:This isnt the snes and a leveraged melnyk ,maw. This is the 5thish largest media market in north america acting like the Brewers.

Fuck em.


I have an inherently hard time with strong opinions and a lack of information. This Donaldson thing just doesn't make sense to me, and I need to know who the "impact" prospect is supposed to be. I still don't get why they wouldn't just try to qualify him.

I don't mind that they tried to go for it. Hard to know Stroman, Sanchez, Tulo, Donaldson, osuna and everyone else would have so many injury issues. If they were an 85 win team, that should have given them opportunities to create value for their assets and get more return. That they're tearing down now vs a few months ago doesn't seem all that major to me.

There does seem to be a fairly obvious direction in play and I don't mind how they're dealing with the remnants of what it took to open the window a few years ago. This Donaldson stuff does seem to suck, but big picture things seem fine. :dunno:
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20115 by Craig » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:40 am

The lack of QO is because they're afraid he'll sign the 18 million deal, then nobody will want him at that price. In that scenario they give him 18 million in what they know is a dead season, then he walks at the end for nothing. I have no idea how legitimate the fear is, but that's the logic.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20116 by AGENT ZERO » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:33 am

We will know pretty soon if that fear is real becausw if he playa he is easily worth 18M.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20117 by AGENT ZERO » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:34 am

mayoradamwest wrote:
clawfirst wrote:This isnt the snes and a leveraged melnyk ,maw. This is the 5thish largest media market in north america acting like the Brewers.

Fuck em.


I have an inherently hard time with strong opinions and a lack of information. This Donaldson thing just doesn't make sense to me, and I need to know who the "impact" prospect is supposed to be. I still don't get why they wouldn't just try to qualify him.

I don't mind that they tried to go for it. Hard to know Stroman, Sanchez, Tulo, Donaldson, osuna and everyone else would have so many injury issues. If they were an 85 win team, that should have given them opportunities to create value for their assets and get more return. That they're tearing down now vs a few months ago doesn't seem all that major to me.

There does seem to be a fairly obvious direction in play and I don't mind how they're dealing with the remnants of what it took to open the window a few years ago. This Donaldson stuff does seem to suck, but big picture things seem fine. :dunno:


It's almost certainly Julian Merryweather who projects as a mid rotation starter.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20118 by mayoradamwest » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:49 am

AGENT ZERO wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
clawfirst wrote:This isnt the snes and a leveraged melnyk ,maw. This is the 5thish largest media market in north america acting like the Brewers.

Fuck em.


I have an inherently hard time with strong opinions and a lack of information. This Donaldson thing just doesn't make sense to me, and I need to know who the "impact" prospect is supposed to be. I still don't get why they wouldn't just try to qualify him.

I don't mind that they tried to go for it. Hard to know Stroman, Sanchez, Tulo, Donaldson, osuna and everyone else would have so many injury issues. If they were an 85 win team, that should have given them opportunities to create value for their assets and get more return. That they're tearing down now vs a few months ago doesn't seem all that major to me.

There does seem to be a fairly obvious direction in play and I don't mind how they're dealing with the remnants of what it took to open the window a few years ago. This Donaldson stuff does seem to suck, but big picture things seem fine. :dunno:


It's almost certainly Julian Merryweather who projects as a mid rotation starter.


Yeah that sucks, it doesn't make sense either.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20119 by clawfirst » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:41 am

It makes sense. Rogers is so cheap they wont invest 18 million into a real return or comp pick if donaldson didnt accept
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20120 by Dynrehab » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:05 pm

You guys seem to be throwing all the blame at management, but how would they ever imagine this injury scenario? They would have always thought there was a possibility for a decent return.

Add to that, Donaldson got injured and decided to do his own thing for rehab. That NEVER goes well and always sours the relationship. This scenario sucks, but the should have traded him sooner is only hindsight. Although I would have qualified him, but they must anticipate the prospect is better than the compensatory pick.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20121 by AGENT ZERO » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:07 pm

Dynrehab wrote:You guys seem to be throwing all the blame at management, but how would they ever imagine this injury scenario? They would have always thought there was a possibility for a decent return.

Add to that, Donaldson got injured and decided to do his own thing for rehab. That NEVER goes well and always sours the relationship. This scenario sucks, but the should have traded him sooner is only hindsight. Although I would have qualified him, but they must anticipate the prospect is better than the compensatory pick.


By many accounts the relationship soured when the Jays refused to offer Donaldson more than a 3 year extension. I completely understand the justification for that, but if that was the plan he should have been dealt last year when his value was at it's peak. By waiting and then offering him a below market value deal the Jays put themselves in a weaker position from a trade standpoint. I've defended every move up to this point, but this one was handled poorly. A player of Donaldon's calibre should have been re-signed in the winter or traded before the season started.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20122 by Vector » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:04 pm

Just read one report that said JD didn’t want to be traded and really wanted to finish his career as a Blue Jay. Personally, I would have preferred him with the team next year as on the QO or an incentive-heavy contract. Somewhere along the way management decided against it and burned a lot of good will.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20123 by vf » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:43 pm

clawfirst wrote:This isnt the snes and a leveraged melnyk ,maw. This is the 5thish largest media market in north america acting like the Brewers.

Fuck em.


Meh, ownership structure is the biggest fuck up. Rogers has to declare all Jays spending to their shareholders. If they would sell to MLSE they could act like a big market team.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20124 by Balki Bartokomous » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:45 am

JD was awesome. It hurts to see him in the city that ousted the Raptors in three straight seasons, beat the Jays in the ALCS, and then stole Encarnacion. I hate Cleveland so much.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20125 by vf » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:15 pm

Atkins just sid on Tim and Sid that the ptbnl is because he's on the 40 man and didn't clear waivers in Cleveland. No conditions.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20126 by Balki Bartokomous » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:27 pm

Maybe it's EE
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20127 by vf » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:14 pm

This is all the guys on their 40 that's 25 or younger. Chang is the only one to excite me at all. Mercado might be something if his mechanical changes have held. The rest are filler imo. I know reports are saying Julian Merryweather(sic), but that does go against what Atkins said the return of “an exciting upper-level talent” who will have a near-future impact in the majors is better for the team then the comp pick they could have gotten out of JD. Merryweather isn't better then a comp pick. Oh, and the Jays were in on offering JD a QO. They even sent 2.7M with JD. You don't send 2.7M to get Julian Merryweather.

Shane Bieber RH SP
Ben Taylor RH RP
Eric Haase C
Yu Chang ss/3b
Oscar Mercado CF
Greg Allen CF
Bradley Zimmer CF
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20128 by Vector » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:27 pm

God I want your optimism right now, vf. I’m guessing it’s a pitcher and will be Merryweather.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20129 by vf » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:15 am

Would anyone of even claimed Merryweather though?
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20130 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:36 am

vf wrote:Would anyone of even claimed Merryweather though?


Because he's an exciting upper-level talent who will have a near-future impact in the majors. Image
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20131 by vf » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:40 am

susf. His ERA in AAA is 6.58. That's only exciting for the OTHER team.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20132 by AGENT ZERO » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:41 pm

vf wrote:Would anyone of even claimed Merryweather though?


Yeah, he has good stuff and solid numbers across the minor leagues.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20133 by AGENT ZERO » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:42 pm

vf wrote:susf. His ERA in AAA is 6.58. That's only exciting for the OTHER team.


Strong peripherals though, and his numbers look fine at every other level. I don't love the return, but he actually looks like an interesting prospect and easily better than a comp pick who bust far more often than not.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20134 by MonkeyWrench » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:28 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:susf. His ERA in AAA is 6.58. That's only exciting for the OTHER team.


Strong peripherals though, and his numbers look fine at every other level. I don't love the return, but he actually looks like an interesting prospect and easily better than a comp pick who bust far more often than not.


I'll take a lottery pick over a certainty with a ceiling so low it's in the basement.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20135 by vf » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:13 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:susf. His ERA in AAA is 6.58. That's only exciting for the OTHER team.


Strong peripherals though, and his numbers look fine at every other level. I don't love the return, but he actually looks like an interesting prospect and easily better than a comp pick who bust far more often than not.


Numbers have been fine until you comp his age to those levels. Doing half decent as a 25 year old in AA isn't impressive. He'll be 27 before he throws again and hasn't had a full season in AAA.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20136 by Vector » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:17 pm

And all that is because he's either undergone or will undergo TJ surgery. With his age and health, he's barely a prospect. If Merryweather was a part of a package, then I'd have no problem, but sounds like he'll be the only return.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20137 by AGENT ZERO » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:56 pm

Merryweather kind of looks like Mike Clevinger if you squint, and the stuff has apparently been getting better with age. I dont think he is as bad as you guys are making him out to be.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20138 by vf » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:23 pm

He might be a fine back of the rotation starter. How 'exciting'. I'd take a comp pick over him.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20139 by vf » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:34 pm

Vector wrote:And all that is because he's either undergone or will undergo TJ surgery. With his age and health, he's barely a prospect. If Merryweather was a part of a package, then I'd have no problem, but sounds like he'll be the only return.


He had his surgery back in March.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20140 by Vector » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:04 pm

Thanks. I couldn’t find anything to confirm he had the surgery. I didn’t try very hard.

In other news, Jays getting Rowdy!
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20141 by Honus Joglund » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:13 am



Image
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20142 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:16 am

vf wrote:He might be a fine back of the rotation starter. How 'exciting'. I'd take a comp pick over him.


I see mid rotation upside from some of the reports I've read online. I trust the Jays like him more than a comp pick if they were willing to make this trade, and because of their history in Cleveland I bet that they have an extensive background on this kid. Once upon a time the Indians acquired Kluber and Carrasco and they were also said to be fringe back end guys.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20143 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:48 am

From Fangraphs:

I left Merryweather off of Cleveland’s offseason list entirely because I had reports from scouts who thought he was succeeding as a 24-year-old in A-ball due to deception, a good changeup, and little else. Turns out that was foolish. Merryweather is 25 but he’s pitched his way to Columbus and he carved up one of the more talented lineups in the International League yesterday, garnering swings and misses with all three pitches. He’s deceptive, athletic, touched 95 several times, flashed a plus curveball and changeup, and despite some issues timing all the moving parts of his delivery, he threw lots of strikes. There are scouts who think he fits better in relief, but he has mid-rotation stuff.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20144 by Vector » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 pm

That was before the season and injury. He projected very well. I’m just not convinced after TJ surgery.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20145 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:25 pm

Vector wrote:That was before the season and injury. He projected very well. I’m just not convinced after TJ surgery.


Almost every pitcher has TJ surgery at some point, and almost every pitcher comes back 100% from it.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20146 by vf » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:27 pm

That is not a glowing report. A delivery with a lot of moving parts with scouts split between mid rotation and bullpen. A report that says he succeeded based off his change up and little else. Also going to guess this report was from before he got blown out of the water in the IL. Was that because he was fighting through injury or because they started sitting on his fastball?(I have no idea) Honestly, even if he ends up being a mid rotation starter it still seems like buying low to me. He comes from the draft as Max Pentecost.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20147 by vf » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:28 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Vector wrote:That was before the season and injury. He projected very well. I’m just not convinced after TJ surgery.


Almost every pitcher has TJ surgery at some point, and almost every pitcher comes back 100% from it.


Yeah, they've got TJ pretty much figured. I believe most guys come back throwing harder then before.
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Honus Joglund
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20148 by Honus Joglund » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:16 pm

Ohtani going for TJ.

The Angels decided to try to rest him for three months before finally letting him pitch again a few days ago, then his arm blew up mid-start and caused even more damage. Now he's probably gone until 2020.

Good job, ya fucking morons.
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20149 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:19 pm

Why are pitchers so brittle nowadays?
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Re: The Vector Unemployment/Blue Jays Thread

Post #20150 by vf » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:54 pm

Million dollar question doc

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