Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3701 by Whit Dickman » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:55 pm

LeafErikson wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
LeafErikson wrote:My guess would be a trade for Tavares would likely cost us quite a bit more than that. I don't think we get him without giving up Nylander or Marner, which makes it a non starter for me.

Do you see someone giving up a package like that for one year of JT?

But in your scenario aren't we getting more than one year of JT?
I'm with JH. Tavares isn't the right guy for this squad. Better to focus on spending assets on upgrading the D.

his contract is up next year

we would be getting more for JT, but the market will be set based on his current contract.
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Post #3702 by LeafOfBread » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:22 pm

If we ended up with Laine instead of Matthews then I would've been all for going after JT but with our current Cs I'm quite content. Matthews-Willy-Naz down the middle is still an elite group, and when the 3rd guy on the depth chart could be a 1C on some teams that's certainly a great situation to be in.
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Post #3703 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:40 am

I'd go after JT, there is no such thing as too many elite centers and he is easily a top 10 player in this league. Just look what he's done on a mediocre Islanders squad.
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Post #3704 by Philthy Thrillz » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:46 am

Bringing in JT all but guarantees a cup. 100% on that bandwagon.
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Post #3705 by Dynrehab » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:50 am

I'd like to bring the other JT in for 2-3 years to compliment the kids, give up no assets and he retires a cup winner with the Leafs. But I doubt he is interested.
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3706 by LeafErikson » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:38 pm

Dynrehab wrote:I'd like to bring the other JT in for 2-3 years to compliment the kids, give up no assets and he retires a cup winner with the Leafs. But I doubt he is interested.

I wonder if he wouldn't just retire if SJ decides to move on from him.
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Post #3707 by mooseOAK » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:17 pm

Won't come to Toronto, more than one reporter will be at the games.
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Post #3708 by Dynrehab » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:26 pm

mooseOAK wrote:Won't come to Toronto, more than one reporter will be at the games.


I think this is a myth. I'm sure he likes SJ and he started his family there (although his wife is from Europe) but he'd be OK to play in this market under the right circumstances. I don't think he would would have with the past regime though.
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Post #3709 by Philthy Thrillz » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:51 pm

Dynrehab wrote:I'd like to bring the other JT in for 2-3 years to compliment the kids, give up no assets and he retires a cup winner with the Leafs. But I doubt he is interested.



I don't think he's the right target to go after. IMO, he doesn't compliment the top six enough to invest in the most crucial years.

Matthews Nylander
Tavares Marner

You have two sets of elite players that compliment each other nicely

Joe Mitch, not so much
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Post #3710 by vf » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:59 pm

A #1 D would have a bigger impact imhomo. Scoring goals isn't a problem for this team.
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Post #3711 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:46 pm

vf wrote:A #1 D would have a bigger impact imhomo. Scoring goals isn't a problem for this team.


Right, but just like baseball goals prevented are not worth more than goals scored, and there is something to be said about improving our defense via a strong puck possession center like JT. The better reason for going after a D with our resources is that it is significantly easier and cheaper to improve a bottom 5 defense than a top 5 offense.
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Post #3712 by Honus Joglund » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:47 pm

These are the last ten Cup champs and their ranks in GF and GA:

2016 PIT - 3rd/6th
2015 CHI - 17th/2nd
2014 LAK - 26th/1st
2013 CHI - 2nd/1st
2012 LAK - 29th/2nd
2011 BOS - 5th/2nd
2010 CHI - 3rd/6th
2009 PIT - 6th/17th
2008 DET - 3rd/1st
2007 ANA - 8th/7th

Average rank: 10th/5th

The Leafs are 6th in GF (clearly good enough to win a Cup) and 21st in GA (clearly not good enough to win a Cup).

Right now we're shaping up to be the 2009-2013 Capitals, who proved that you can have a historic offense powered by multiple HHOFers, including an all time great, and still be fucked in the playoffs if you don't defend.

I hope Lou and Shanny don't waste the first half of Matthews, Marner and Nylander's careers on a team that has to try to outscore their problems. We need to get a lot better defensively and hopefully as soon as possible.
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Post #3713 by mooseOAK » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:42 am

Dynrehab wrote:
mooseOAK wrote:Won't come to Toronto, more than one reporter will be at the games.


I think this is a myth. I'm sure he likes SJ and he started his family there (although his wife is from Europe) but he'd be OK to play in this market under the right circumstances. I don't think he would would have with the past regime though.

Thornton has said himself that the reason he likes San Jose is the relative lack of attention he gets.

Anyway, there is no point to having some old vet playing out the string on the Leafs roster.
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Post #3714 by Whit Dickman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:45 am

Honus Joglund wrote:These are the last ten Cup champs and their ranks in GF and GA:

2016 PIT - 3rd/6th
2015 CHI - 17th/2nd
2014 LAK - 26th/1st
2013 CHI - 2nd/1st
2012 LAK - 29th/2nd
2011 BOS - 5th/2nd
2010 CHI - 3rd/6th
2009 PIT - 6th/17th
2008 DET - 3rd/1st
2007 ANA - 8th/7th

Average rank: 10th/5th

The Leafs are 6th in GF (clearly good enough to win a Cup) and 21st in GA (clearly not good enough to win a Cup).

Right now we're shaping up to be the 2009-2013 Capitals, who proved that you can have a historic offense powered by multiple HHOFers, including an all time great, and still be fucked in the playoffs if you don't defend.

I hope Lou and Shanny don't waste the first half of Matthews, Marner and Nylander's careers on a team that has to try to outscore their problems. We need to get a lot better defensively and hopefully as soon as possible.


We have a short window where we can afford both JT and defensive help.
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Post #3715 by Thomas Malthus » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:15 pm

I want Landeskog and defensive help.
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Post #3716 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:02 pm

Lando would be terrific, but JT would be something else entirely. Imagine what that man could do with elite linemates.
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Post #3717 by mooseOAK » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:20 pm

Which JT are we talking about now? Don't want either but just checking.
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Post #3718 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:47 pm

If we signed JT, we'd win multiple cups to be sure. Not sure how anyone wouldn't want him.
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Post #3719 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:52 pm

mooseOAK wrote:Which JT are we talking about now? Don't want either but just checking.


Tavares
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Post #3720 by Geo » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:19 pm

Tavares signing as a free agent would be a dream, but he's going to garner a monster deal and I am much more concerned with the Leafs getting their own guys signed long-term. And given that, as already stated, adding another Top 4 D if possible.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I would love to see Boyle re-signed as well. Though that's probably unlikely given what's to come this offseason as well as the other options/offers for both Boyle and the Leafs.

No thanks to Jumbo Joe however. Would have been great a couple of years ago, but it doesn't strike me as a promising fit going forward nor do I think he'd sign here anyways.
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Post #3721 by mooseOAK » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:55 pm

Philthy Thrillz wrote:If we signed JT, we'd win multiple cups to be sure. Not sure how anyone wouldn't want him.

Huge cap hit that could be used for multiple good supporting players.
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Post #3722 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:19 pm

Our support will come from the incredible depth that Hunter will provide with his drafting, and will be cheap.
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Post #3723 by AGENT ZERO » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:11 pm

mooseOAK wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:If we signed JT, we'd win multiple cups to be sure. Not sure how anyone wouldn't want him.

Huge cap hit that could be used for multiple good supporting players.


As PT remarked, the Leafs are rich with supporting players signed to ELC's, but even if they weren't you still take an elite player over several support pieces.
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Post #3724 by Whit Dickman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:06 pm

You guys are crazy.

If you have the opportunity to sign a top 10 center for nothing other than cap space, you do it. Particularly in our case because we have a bunch of young forwards who are incredibly cheap for what they bring to the table.

Signing JT and Shattenkirk would immediately make up cup contenders. We might have to get creative with the cap a few years down the road (including, perhaps, trading one or both of JT and Shattenkirk), but a couple genuine shots at the cup is well worth it.

Don't trade assets for a vet with a big price tag... but if you can sign a star in free agency, you fucking do it.
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Post #3725 by Whit Dickman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:09 pm

We could replace Bozak *AND* JVR with JT.

Kapanen-JT-Marner

Vs

JVR-Bozak-Marner

Simple decision
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Post #3726 by Dynrehab » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:12 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:You guys are crazy.

If you have the opportunity to sign a top 10 center for nothing other than cap space, you do it. Particularly in our case because we have a bunch of young forwards who are incredibly cheap for what they bring to the table.

Signing JT and Shattenkirk would immediately make up cup contenders. We might have to get creative with the cap a few years down the road (including, perhaps, trading one or both of JT and Shattenkirk), but a couple genuine shots at the cup is well worth it.

Don't trade assets for a vet with a big price tag... but if you can sign a star in free agency, you fucking do it.


Tavares is a UFA one year before having to sign the kids.
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Post #3727 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:23 pm

2 8 8
2 8 8
1 3 1
1 1 1

5 5
5 5
1 1

5
1

If you were to build around two sets of elite players that average 8 mill a piece, a top 4 that averages 5, and a goalie at 5.

That is roughly what the payroll would look like at a 72 mill cap.
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Post #3728 by Whit Dickman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:58 pm

Dynrehab wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:You guys are crazy.

If you have the opportunity to sign a top 10 center for nothing other than cap space, you do it. Particularly in our case because we have a bunch of young forwards who are incredibly cheap for what they bring to the table.

Signing JT and Shattenkirk would immediately make up cup contenders. We might have to get creative with the cap a few years down the road (including, perhaps, trading one or both of JT and Shattenkirk), but a couple genuine shots at the cup is well worth it.

Don't trade assets for a vet with a big price tag... but if you can sign a star in free agency, you fucking do it.


Tavares is a UFA one year before having to sign the kids.


No bridge deals?
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Post #3729 by Dynrehab » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:14 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
Dynrehab wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:You guys are crazy.

If you have the opportunity to sign a top 10 center for nothing other than cap space, you do it. Particularly in our case because we have a bunch of young forwards who are incredibly cheap for what they bring to the table.

Signing JT and Shattenkirk would immediately make up cup contenders. We might have to get creative with the cap a few years down the road (including, perhaps, trading one or both of JT and Shattenkirk), but a couple genuine shots at the cup is well worth it.

Don't trade assets for a vet with a big price tag... but if you can sign a star in free agency, you fucking do it.


Tavares is a UFA one year before having to sign the kids.


No bridge deals?


I don't think so. These kids will have >200 points when it is time for new contracts. But not $20 million deals either. 8X $8 I think for Mitch and Austin.
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Post #3730 by Geo » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:13 am

Matthews (36) is 2 goals away from the career high of Tavares (38, his next high is 33). Nylander and Marner each with 58 points in his rookie season, already more than the 54 points scored by Tavares in his 82-game rookie season. To be fair, Nylander played the final 22 games with the Leafs last season, scoring 13 points for the worst team in the league record-wise.

Nylander is the oldest of the trio and he turns 21 at the start of May. These three along with other players assembled (including some also in need of new contracts in the next few years) have helped the Maple Leafs currently be on the verge of a 90-plus-point season.

Let's get Zaitsev and these guys signed first, and then we can talk Tavares imo.

Edit: If anything, in light of his injury tonight and seeing Stamkos just manage to avoid potential disaster, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Tavares chooses to avoid the risk and signs a mega-extension with the Islanders this summer. And then in a few years, if things aren't going well, he forces his way out to a team of his choosing - much like Rick Nash with Columbus. That way he'll still get his 8-year deal/extension and the big bucks that come with it, he'll be worth that contract to the Islanders as their big/only draw, he'll give the new management team a chance to improve things, and even if it's less than ideal because he forces their hand, his loyalty to the Islanders rewards them with some assets back in a trade.
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Post #3731 by mooseOAK » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:39 am

AGENT ZERO wrote:
mooseOAK wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:If we signed JT, we'd win multiple cups to be sure. Not sure how anyone wouldn't want him.

Huge cap hit that could be used for multiple good supporting players.


As PT remarked, the Leafs are rich with supporting players signed to ELC's, but even if they weren't you still take an elite player over several support pieces.

The Leafs have three lines that can score now. To me that says to concentrate on something else to improve.
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Post #3732 by Whit Dickman » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:34 am

Thats because we have JVR/Bozak. Are we signing them long term?
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Post #3733 by AGENT ZERO » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:23 pm

mooseOAK wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
mooseOAK wrote:Huge cap hit that could be used for multiple good supporting players.


As PT remarked, the Leafs are rich with supporting players signed to ELC's, but even if they weren't you still take an elite player over several support pieces.

The Leafs have three lines that can score now. To me that says to concentrate on something else to improve.


Why do the Leafs have to concentrate exclusively on one thing to improve?
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Post #3734 by mooseOAK » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:39 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
mooseOAK wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
As PT remarked, the Leafs are rich with supporting players signed to ELC's, but even if they weren't you still take an elite player over several support pieces.

The Leafs have three lines that can score now. To me that says to concentrate on something else to improve.


Why do the Leafs have to concentrate exclusively on one thing to improve?

More effective allocation of resources? On a related but different issue if Tavares is signed then there are two Alpha dogs given that Auston Mathews will be a first line centreman also.
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Post #3735 by AGENT ZERO » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:42 pm

The Leafs should probably trade one of Nylander/Marner while they are at it. The last thing they want is too many elite first line players on the same team.
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Post #3736 by cawbber » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:44 pm

mooseOAK wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
mooseOAK wrote:The Leafs have three lines that can score now. To me that says to concentrate on something else to improve.


Why do the Leafs have to concentrate exclusively on one thing to improve?

More effective allocation of resources? On a related but different issue if Tavares is signed then there are two Alpha dogs given that Auston Mathews will be a first line centreman also.

I'm pretty comfortable referring to Matthews as a first line centre right now
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Post #3737 by mooseOAK » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:03 pm

cawbber wrote:
mooseOAK wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
Why do the Leafs have to concentrate exclusively on one thing to improve?

More effective allocation of resources? On a related but different issue if Tavares is signed then there are two Alpha dogs given that Auston Mathews will be a first line centreman also.

I'm pretty comfortable referring to Matthews as a first line centre right now

What a coincidence, so am I!
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Post #3738 by clawfirst » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:26 am

First line franchise centre. Possibly generational(as the common usage definition is today. Ovi crosby mcdavid austin)
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Post #3739 by clawfirst » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:27 am

Supported by 2 second line C
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Post #3740 by AGENT ZERO » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:01 pm

Kadri's produced like a 1st line C all year.
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Post #3741 by Thomas Malthus » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:41 pm

Kadri is sitting in 15th for points by centres this season (oddly both Marner and Nylander are considered centres by the NHL). He's third in powerplay goals (again among centres) behind Crosby and Schenn (:fingered:). If you want to look only at evens, he's still 15th (Matthews is 7th). Damn, that's a crazy season for Naz.
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Post #3742 by WTF » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Naz has been great this season and Babcock has really managed to get the best out of him as a two-way player.

Thank you, Deveraux?
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Post #3743 by LeafOfBread » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:30 pm

WTF wrote:Naz has been great this season and Babcock has really managed to get the best out of him as a two-way player.

Thank you, Deveraux?

Yup, we would've drafted Brayden Schenn who is a much shittier player.
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3744 by AGENT ZERO » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:29 pm

Funny how that all worked out in the end.
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3745 by Curry Rage » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:49 pm

Tyler who?!?
*Buy Oil Stocks!*
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3746 by Zardoz » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:34 pm

Apparently Kapanen is having one hell of a game tonight with 2 assists and 6 shots. Brought his nhl level intensity with him I guess.
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3747 by Whit Dickman » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:23 pm

Leipsic - Gauthier - Kapanen is a line. Might see that at the NHL level, eventually.
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3748 by Philthy Thrillz » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:04 pm

I don't want to see Kap stifled on the fourth line next year. He's a good two way player with too much offence ability.
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3749 by Whit Dickman » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:50 pm

Philthy Thrillz wrote:I don't want to see Kap stifled on the fourth line next year. He's a good two way player with too much offence ability.


Unless Billy moves to C, 4th line to start is a good bet. Brown will stay on 3rd line. I'm fact, our forward lines may just stay the same (with Boyle being the most uncertain).
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Re: Marlies and Prospects - Hell no! We won't go!

Post #3750 by Philthy Thrillz » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 pm

He could replace most of JVR's goal, maybe 20. I don't think that would be over rating him. With better defence acumen and speed, he'd be a better fit than JVR. I really hope they take advantage of his value in the trade market, he's our ticket to shoring up the top four without sacrificing our future.

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