*NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

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Post #3451 by clawfirst » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:29 pm

This is a problem that needs to be delt with and we all know what it is. The prior administration did it right. Quietly...with a fuck ton of intelligence co op and drone strikes.

You dont openly declare war unless you have another agenda and want to instigate aggression.
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Post #3452 by vf » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:55 pm

They half got it. Did nothing to stop the proliferation of Isis though. They can't just bomb a country, have to rebuild the thing afterwards.
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Post #3453 by Whit Dickman » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:32 pm

vf wrote:What's sad is that people are still too fucking stupid and keep blaming it on immigrants and a religion. Has nothing to do at all with countless wars the west has either helped with or instigated and all the coups. Nothing to do with all the bombings. Nah, it's that damned religion.


Has *something* to do with religion. Do you kill people and expect to die without believing that you will nonetheless live forever in paradise (and, in fact, the killing will facilitate that)?
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Post #3454 by akiberg » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:18 pm

*nothing* to do with religion.
that's quite a statement.
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Post #3455 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:14 am

France, Germany, England. Perhaps certain religions/ideologies just aren't compatible with the rest of the world.
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Post #3456 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:16 am

Are we allowed to be talking about stuff like this in Canada anymore?
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Post #3457 by Curry Rage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:33 am

It has something to do with Islam, but I think people grossly oversell the importance of that observation. In the end, a policy to prevent attacks comes down to discovering means, method and opportunity and trying to shut those down. Ideology has a role to play, but wanting to kill me for a spot in heaven and wanting to kill me to usher in the Communist Future doesn't make much difference to me. It might help me figure out where to find you, but it's not a key to stopping you killing me. There isn't a direct causal relationship between reading a Quran and killing people. All the steps in between are where we need to focus our energies. There's an ideological component, but it's far more specific than "religion" or "Islam".

A look at the 20th Century shows that we've lived through a lot of terrorism in the West. There were dozens of attacks by political extremists of one sort or another including revolutionary nationalists, communists, fascists, etc. Globally, the same is true. In the 1970s there was terrorism in the Middle East, but a lot of it was secular in nature like the PLO and other types of Arab national/Ba'athist politics. The difference now is the globalisation of the attacks which have followed the globalisation of political and economic power as well as travel and movement. It's a lot easier for, say, a British person to contextualise and - if not sympathise with - to understand the more subtle motivations of, say, an Irish guy wanting a united Ireland than some guy hanging out in a camp in the dusty desert somewhere because an Irish guy more or less looks like me, thinks like me, lives like me and I have a view into their lives. There's also the globalising effect of media. Only a dedicated news hound would've known about all the terrorist activity across the world in a print-dominated media environment. Now, news of an attack moves across the globe almost in real time. I read about details of the attacks on Saturday evening from a friend posting on FB from Canada. Suddenly, something far away can feel local and personal. Of course, political actors are trying to weaponise that anxiety to appropriate power to themselves.

Of course, another feature of the attacks in Britain/Europe is that many (most?) of the perps are British/European-born. They tend to be second generation Europeans. I don't think we can ignore the idea - presented by a number of terrorism experts - that alienation among young people, and males specifically, is a breeding ground for young men looking to make their mark by believing in and doing something extreme. Is there an element of terrorism which is a backlash of our own society against itself? I think that's another question that needs tackling. The obverse of this is the alt right/Identitarian movement. Again, we see alienated young people (mostly male) kicking back at a system they feel has failed to deliver them meaning and purpose. They find solidarity and personal meaning in toying with extreme ideas and solutions, only in their case borrowed from fascism/traditionalism/racism. We also see terrorist attacks coming from that population. What they both share is a sense of cultural dislocation.
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Post #3458 by Curry Rage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:37 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
vf wrote:What's sad is that people are still too fucking stupid and keep blaming it on immigrants and a religion. Has nothing to do at all with countless wars the west has either helped with or instigated and all the coups. Nothing to do with all the bombings. Nah, it's that damned religion.


Has *something* to do with religion. Do you kill people and expect to die without believing that you will nonetheless live forever in paradise (and, in fact, the killing will facilitate that)?


Yes. Do you suppose the Red Brigades were secretly religious? Do family annihilators do it for the virgins?
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Post #3459 by Philthy Thrillz » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:28 am

I wish I could believe that when I die I'm going to pop 40 virgins. Sadly, im just worm food.
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Post #3460 by Curry Rage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:30 am

Philthy Thrillz wrote:I wish I could believe that when I die I'm going to pop 40 virgins. Sadly, im just worm food.


Totally. But I'd still put my life on the line and kill you if you threatened my family.
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Post #3461 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:06 am

tbm wrote:France, Germany, England. Perhaps certain religions/ideologies just aren't compatible with the rest of the world.

If you're talking about violent Wahhabism/Salafism, you're right. If you're talking about the various strains of Islam practiced by the vast majority of western Muslims, then you're either a) misinformed about the beliefs of most Muslims, or b) lying to yourself so that you can feel better about suggesting we deny basic rights to millions of innocent people.
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Post #3462 by Curry Rage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:21 am

Piggy! So good to see you.

Fer serious.
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Post #3463 by vf » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:00 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
vf wrote:What's sad is that people are still too fucking stupid and keep blaming it on immigrants and a religion. Has nothing to do at all with countless wars the west has either helped with or instigated and all the coups. Nothing to do with all the bombings. Nah, it's that damned religion.


Has *something* to do with religion. Do you kill people and expect to die without believing that you will nonetheless live forever in paradise (and, in fact, the killing will facilitate that)?


Curry covered this off pretty well. If I get shot in the Southside of Chicago from gang violence will that make me feel better about it? Poverty and war coupled with no chance of a future has created these zealots. Zealots the West helped train and supplied with weaponry. Religion is just a vehicle for their hate. It's not the cause of it.
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Post #3464 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:13 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
tbm wrote:France, Germany, England. Perhaps certain religions/ideologies just aren't compatible with the rest of the world.

If you're talking about violent Wahhabism/Salafism, you're right. If you're talking about the various strains of Islam practiced by the vast majority of western Muslims, then you're either a) misinformed about the beliefs of most Muslims, or b) lying to yourself so that you can feel better about suggesting we deny basic rights to millions of innocent people.



I believe it was pretty clear I was talking about Islam which is also a political ideology and not Muslims, a race, in my statement. I'm not in agreement with any ideology that is bigoted, racist, misogynistic, homophobic and which doesn't support free speech or expression.
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Post #3465 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:51 pm

I mean, religion clearly plays a part in it, but...
1) It's a problem with Wahhabism/Salafism, not a problem with Islam. You can't say it's a problem with Islam as a whole when the vast, vast majority of Muslims are just as horrified by Wahhabist/Salafist jihadists as anyone else.
2) Wahhibism/Salafism is not purely a religious issue. Wahhabism was born in highly political circumstances, as was Salafist jihadism, as were all of the militant groups it spawned. al-Qaeda and ISIS are political organizations as much as they are religious organizations, and their existence and tactics would not exist if western nations hadn't spent decades spilling oil and blood across the Middle East.
3) The danger of Salafist jihadism lies in what EB alluded to earlier — of all the groups that attract angry, young, disaffected men across the world, the Salafists combine an extraordinary call for violence with a tactical disregard for their own lives that makes it extremely difficult to prevent or defend against attacks. But as Courage has pointed out, these types of attackers aren't historically unique. Hell, the States had an epidemic of school shootings over the past decade and a half by angry young men who used they exact same tactics. (Which, as a related aside, I'm guessing have tailed off because the angry young nerds that used to commit school shootings now have the alt-right to funnel their hate into, which is kind of ironic).
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Post #3466 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:54 pm

tbm wrote:
Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
tbm wrote:France, Germany, England. Perhaps certain religions/ideologies just aren't compatible with the rest of the world.

If you're talking about violent Wahhabism/Salafism, you're right. If you're talking about the various strains of Islam practiced by the vast majority of western Muslims, then you're either a) misinformed about the beliefs of most Muslims, or b) lying to yourself so that you can feel better about suggesting we deny basic rights to millions of innocent people.



I believe it was pretty clear I was talking about Islam which is also a political ideology and not Muslims, a race, in my statement. I'm not in agreement with any ideology that is bigoted, racist, misogynistic, homophobic and which doesn't support free speech or expression.

Muslims are not a race. Muslims are followers of Islam. Race has nothing to do with it. Also Islamism is a political ideology that is based upon but separate from Islam. It is possible to be Islamic (believe in Islam) without being Islamist (supporting government based around Islamic principles). The vast majority of Canadian Muslims are Islamic but not Islamist. You don't know what you're talking about. At all.

And since the majority of the world's Christians are bigoted, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and live in countries that don't support free speech and oppression, I'm sure you'll be comfortable making blanket statements about Christ's followers as well?
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Post #3467 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:03 pm

TBM, honestly, all I'm asking of you and anyone else is that you take the time to get to learn about this stuff — actually find out what Canadian Muslims think and believe, for instance — before you voice support for discriminating millions of your fellow Canadians who you've never taken the time to get to know.

Here's Environics 2106 survey of Canadian Muslims as a starting point: http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uplo ... report.pdf

Just take 10 or 20 minutes to browse the responses. Yes, you'll find that, like other religious groups, they have a tendency toward certain conservative cultural beliefs. But they are not the people you think they are.
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Post #3468 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:08 pm

"I'm not in agreement with any ideology that is bigoted, racist, misogynistic, homophobic and which doesn't support free speech or expression."
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Post #3469 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:14 pm

TBM, you have gotten the most basic facts wrong about Muslims and Islam. You clearly have no idea who the people you're talking about actually are. How can you honestly be confident that you have Islam figured out when you thought Muslims were a race until five minutes ago? How can you advocate discriminating against millions of people when you've never made the effort to get to know them?
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Post #3470 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:19 pm

I'm talking about Islam, the religion.
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Post #3471 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:33 pm

What do you think I'm talking about?
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Post #3472 by Curry Rage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:25 pm

tbm wrote:I'm talking about Islam, the religion.

Which one??
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Post #3473 by paulster » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:58 pm

tbm wrote:I'm talking about Islam, the religion.


Islamist or Islamic? Apparently there's a massive difference :paulrus:
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Post #3474 by Curry Rage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:10 pm

Well, you had to know it was coming. Just had my first contact with people calling the attacks in London a false flag.
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Post #3475 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:13 pm

paulster wrote:Islamist or Islamic? Apparently there's a massive difference :paulrus:

Compare a Christian who believes in the bible but also believes in separation of church and state vs. an evangelical who wants the Canadian constitution replaced with the ten commandments. It's a huge difference.
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Post #3476 by Zardoz » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:18 pm

Technically Mormons and Johovas are Christian, and they are fucking crazy.
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Post #3477 by WTF » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:49 pm

I've had the opportunity to work with people from diverse cultural and religious backgrounds and by and large, people are people.

The Muslims I've worked with have been some of the nicest people I've met and like everyone else, there are the usual concerns about kids and education, the cost of housing in the GTA, coping with a winter commute, and they're just as prone to fall for Apple's marketing as anyone else.
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Post #3478 by WTF » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:07 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
paulster wrote:Islamist or Islamic? Apparently there's a massive difference :paulrus:

Compare a Christian who believes in the bible but also believes in separation of church and state vs. an evangelical who wants the Canadian constitution replaced with the ten commandments. It's a huge difference.


Yeah, basically the difference between contextualists and fundamentalists, from my religion classes. I attended a Catholic high school and the teachers made it a point to ensure that we were educated as contextualists and to understand the historical, social and cultural factors at play when different parts of the Bible were written.

Also, Ezekiel may have described an encounter with a UFO and its crew (Ezekiel 1:4-28).
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Post #3479 by Philthy Thrillz » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:16 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:I wish I could believe that when I die I'm going to pop 40 virgins. Sadly, im just worm food.


Totally. But I'd still put my life on the line and kill you if you threatened my family.



Absolutely, as any man should.
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Post #3480 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:15 pm

Curry Rage wrote:It has something to do with Islam, but I think people grossly oversell the importance of that observation. In the end, a policy to prevent attacks comes down to discovering means, method and opportunity and trying to shut those down. Ideology has a role to play, but wanting to kill me for a spot in heaven and wanting to kill me to usher in the Communist Future doesn't make much difference to me. It might help me figure out where to find you, but it's not a key to stopping you killing me. There isn't a direct causal relationship between reading a Quran and killing people. All the steps in between are where we need to focus our energies. There's an ideological component, but it's far more specific than "religion" or "Islam".


Belief dictates behavior.
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Post #3481 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:27 pm

vf wrote:Curry covered this off pretty well. If I get shot in the Southside of Chicago from gang violence will that make me feel better about it? Poverty and war coupled with no chance of a future has created these zealots. Zealots the West helped train and supplied with weaponry. Religion is just a vehicle for their hate. It's not the cause of it.


Go back before present day or even the last few decades (wars), or even before anyone dropped a bomb on anyone...what is the one constant in all of this hate?
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Post #3482 by WTF » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:31 pm

tbm wrote:
vf wrote:Curry covered this off pretty well. If I get shot in the Southside of Chicago from gang violence will that make me feel better about it? Poverty and war coupled with no chance of a future has created these zealots. Zealots the West helped train and supplied with weaponry. Religion is just a vehicle for their hate. It's not the cause of it.


Go back before present day or even the last few decades (wars), or even before anyone dropped a bomb on anyone...what is the one constant in all of this hate?


If you ask a Buddhist, they'd say that desire is the cause of all suffering (it is one of the Four Noble Truths). Desire for power, wealth, resources, land, hegemony, etc.
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Post #3483 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:41 pm

TBM, how can you possibly think you are well informed enough to talk about Islam — at all — when you tried to tell someone that Muslims are a race this morning?
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Post #3484 by clawfirst » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:43 pm

Ahh the great muslim race.

That's where they line up and crawl to mecca on their faces right...
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Post #3485 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:48 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:TBM, how can you possibly think you are well informed enough to talk about Islam — at all — when you tried to tell someone that Muslims are a race this morning?


Yes I made a blunder but I'll talk about what ever I want to.
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Post #3486 by akiberg » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:49 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:TBM, how can you possibly think you are well informed enough to talk about Islam — at all — when you tried to tell someone that Muslims are a race this morning?

i think this is ignorant, hurtful and exclusionary.
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Post #3487 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:50 pm

WTF wrote:
tbm wrote:
vf wrote:Curry covered this off pretty well. If I get shot in the Southside of Chicago from gang violence will that make me feel better about it? Poverty and war coupled with no chance of a future has created these zealots. Zealots the West helped train and supplied with weaponry. Religion is just a vehicle for their hate. It's not the cause of it.


Go back before present day or even the last few decades (wars), or even before anyone dropped a bomb on anyone...what is the one constant in all of this hate?


If you ask a Buddhist, they'd say that desire is the cause of all suffering (it is one of the Four Noble Truths). Desire for power, wealth, resources, land, hegemony, etc.


What do Buddhist's practice?
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Post #3488 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:53 pm

tbm wrote:
Bernie Bernbaum wrote:TBM, how can you possibly think you are well informed enough to talk about Islam — at all — when you tried to tell someone that Muslims are a race this morning?


Yes I made a blunder but I'll talk about what ever I want to.

Why should anyone listen to you when you don't know the most fundamental details of the subject you're talking about? Would you listen to a math professor who had to be told what a division sign meant?
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Post #3489 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:59 pm

Bernie there are people in Canada now preaching in mosques to kill Jews/non-believers, this isn't just occurring in Europe. As I said I'll talk about what ever I please.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3490 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:03 pm

akiberg wrote:
Bernie Bernbaum wrote:TBM, how can you possibly think you are well informed enough to talk about Islam — at all — when you tried to tell someone that Muslims are a race this morning?

i think this is ignorant, hurtful and exclusionary.


We need more motions passed (which can turn into bills, which can turn into laws) in Canada with no definition instead of actually talking about it, because it will fix everything.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3491 by Philthy Thrillz » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:08 pm

We should make a religious fred, it'd be right up there with the politik fred.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3492 by Philthy Thrillz » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:10 pm

Next think you know Jews won't be a race. :stare:
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3493 by WTF » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:10 pm

tbm wrote:
WTF wrote:
tbm wrote:
Go back before present day or even the last few decades (wars), or even before anyone dropped a bomb on anyone...what is the one constant in all of this hate?


If you ask a Buddhist, they'd say that desire is the cause of all suffering (it is one of the Four Noble Truths). Desire for power, wealth, resources, land, hegemony, etc.


What do Buddhist's practice?


Following the Eightfold Path.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3494 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:10 pm

tbm wrote:Bernie there are people in Canada now preaching in mosques to kill Jews/non-believers, this isn't just occurring in Europe. As I said I'll talk about what ever I please.


Montreal a few months back,

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world ... y-theories
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3495 by Curry Rage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:13 pm

tbm wrote:
Curry Rage wrote:It has something to do with Islam, but I think people grossly oversell the importance of that observation. In the end, a policy to prevent attacks comes down to discovering means, method and opportunity and trying to shut those down. Ideology has a role to play, but wanting to kill me for a spot in heaven and wanting to kill me to usher in the Communist Future doesn't make much difference to me. It might help me figure out where to find you, but it's not a key to stopping you killing me. There isn't a direct causal relationship between reading a Quran and killing people. All the steps in between are where we need to focus our energies. There's an ideological component, but it's far more specific than "religion" or "Islam".


Belief dictates behavior.


Sure, but in this case a belief "more specific than "religion" or "Islam"."
*Buy Oil Stocks!*
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3496 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:22 pm

WTF wrote:
tbm wrote:
WTF wrote:
If you ask a Buddhist, they'd say that desire is the cause of all suffering (it is one of the Four Noble Truths). Desire for power, wealth, resources, land, hegemony, etc.


What do Buddhist's practice?


Following the Eightfold Path.



So basically religion.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3497 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:23 pm

tbm wrote:Bernie there are people in Canada now preaching in mosques to kill Jews/non-believers, this isn't just occurring in Europe. As I said I'll talk about what ever I please.

And there are Christian Canadians on Stormfront who think we should cleanse North America of Jews, blacks, the indigenous and anyone else who isn't a Hitler youth. There are fundamentalist Christians who still worship at churches that believe homosexuality is a sin that should be punishable by death. For some reason you don't seem to confuse that small group of extremist with other Canadians who worship the same God.

If the only things you're willing to read about Muslims are about the extremists, you will have — and you clearly do have — not a goddamn clue about typical Canadian Muslims. It's amazing that you think anyone should take you seriously on a subject you know nothing about. It's unnerving that you'll call for the discrimination of millions of people without taking five minutes to learn who the people you wish to discriminate against actually are.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3498 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:25 pm

tbm wrote:
tbm wrote:Bernie there are people in Canada now preaching in mosques to kill Jews/non-believers, this isn't just occurring in Europe. As I said I'll talk about what ever I please.


Montreal a few months back,

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world ... y-theories

Yes. I read the news.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3499 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:44 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
tbm wrote:Bernie there are people in Canada now preaching in mosques to kill Jews/non-believers, this isn't just occurring in Europe. As I said I'll talk about what ever I please.

And there are Christian Canadians on Stormfront who think we should cleanse North America of Jews, blacks, the indigenous and anyone else who isn't a Hitler youth. There are fundamentalist Christians who still worship at churches that believe homosexuality is a sin that should be punishable by death. For some reason you don't seem to confuse that small group of extremist with other Canadians who worship the same God.

If the only things you're willing to read about are about the extremists, you will have — and you clearly do have — not a goddamn clue about typical Canadian Muslims. It's amazing that you think anyone should take you seriously on a subject you know nothing about. It's unnerving that you'll call for the discrimination of millions of people without taking five minutes to learn who the people you wish to discriminate against actually are.


I have only touched on the brainwashed cowards that spread their hate and those that have killed innocent people and children like at the concert last week. It's too bad you still can't tell the difference.
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Re: *NSFW* - Professor Dickman's Office Hours and Sometimes Leafs Lounge. Virgin 4.0

Post #3500 by tbm » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:48 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
tbm wrote:
tbm wrote:Bernie there are people in Canada now preaching in mosques to kill Jews/non-believers, this isn't just occurring in Europe. As I said I'll talk about what ever I please.


Montreal a few months back,

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world ... y-theories

Yes. I read the news.


How do you feel about this, do you condemn it, do you live in Canada?

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