ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2051 by Curry Rage » Fri May 11, 2018 12:19 pm

In a move that may surprise, I'm all for Kyle Kalculator. I want a whole team of Debrincats. Even on D.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2052 by Curry Rage » Fri May 11, 2018 12:55 pm

In other news, the trashing of Hunter's scouting record (just 3 years into his tenure) has begun in earnest. Gotta rationalise why potentially losing him will be just fine.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2053 by cawbber » Fri May 11, 2018 1:37 pm

Curry Rage wrote:In other news, the trashing of Hunter's scouting record (just 3 years into his tenure) has begun in earnest. Gotta rationalise why potentially losing him will be just fine.

If he leaves that will be a shame, but he's not the only fish in the sea.

I have to believe he has a lot of say in the operation already, Shanny said as much. Those guys have access to as many resources as any team in the league. Hard to walk away from that I would imagine.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2054 by Curry Rage » Fri May 11, 2018 1:46 pm

Of course he's not the only guy in the world who can scout and develop players. I just found the negative pre-rationalisations for his possible departure entertaining. Grapes? I never wanted grapes. These grapes are sour anyway.

He's had three drafts and got two NHLers out of his first two picks with the organisation in Marner and Dermott. Marner looks like he could be special though many doubted his game could translate due to his size. It seems pretty likely Hunter was part of the decision to trade down knowing they could get Dermott who looks to have the makings of a top-4 guy. He had a no-brainer with Matthews in year 2 but grabbed Korshkov and Grundstrom right after and the latter looks to be near-NHL ready while the other guy still has a good chance to be a player. I wouldn't expect anyone from the 3rd Round on to be in the NHL at this point anyway. That almost never happens. Last year he took a little bit of a risk that Liljegren's drop was because of illness and his production as an 18 year old in the AHL would appear to justify Hunter's faith in his talent level. Still waaaaaay to early on the rest.

Hunter is also Director of Player Development, which means he's overseeing a lot of the stuff that goes into improving our young players. Guys like Kapanen, Dermott, Johnsson, etc. who've all graduated out of the Marlies system to make an impact on the NHL club.

I guess I'm getting into a mud puddle with pigs here but there's a lot to be said for what Hunter has done so far, IMO. He seems to have the esteem of all the guys we think know best - i.e. Shanny, Lou, Babs and now Dubas.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2055 by AGENT ZERO » Fri May 11, 2018 1:52 pm

I've really liked the scouting since we acquired Hunter. I've had a few gripes in the later rounds, but in the early going I've been on board with almost everything.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2056 by Curry Rage » Fri May 11, 2018 2:04 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:I've really liked the scouting since we acquired Hunter. I've had a few gripes in the later rounds, but in the early going I've been on board with almost everything.


Yeah, and that's just par for the course. Pretty hard to tell a lot of guys in the late rounds apart.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2057 by AGENT ZERO » Fri May 11, 2018 2:43 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:I've really liked the scouting since we acquired Hunter. I've had a few gripes in the later rounds, but in the early going I've been on board with almost everything.


Yeah, and that's just par for the course. Pretty hard to tell a lot of guys in the late rounds apart.


Agreed
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2058 by Thomas Malthus » Fri May 11, 2018 4:07 pm

I don’t really have much of an issue with Hunter.

People also say things like “He was only successful with London because he could buy and woo talent” as if those aren’t important in the NHL. Players from London had a reputation for being well groomed and prepared players. Fuck, even “all offense” Mitch surprised us all with his effort on defense over the past two years. Why on Earth would you consider a guy who can find, acquire, and develop talent a negative asset?

The main factor for me is about how progressive he is relative to Dubas. That’s tough to tell but he wasn’t exactly playing a roster full of Lawson Crouse’s when in London. Those teams were skilled and played a skilled hockey including on the back end. I wouldn’t have been upset with Hunter as GM but I’m happy we get to see what Dubas can do.

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2059 by LeafOfBread » Fri May 11, 2018 4:58 pm

I can't see Hunter leaving just yet anyways. Maybe he goes back to London, but otherwise in an NHL capacity there's nowhere for him to really go and this is the best place for him to be an AGM, especially with how much say he gets in scouting and drafting which is his bread and butter. I wouldn't be surprised if his salary as an AGM rivalled most GMs in the league.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2060 by Curry Rage » Sat May 12, 2018 4:44 am

Thomas Malthus wrote:The main factor for me is about how progressive he is relative to Dubas. That’s tough to tell but he wasn’t exactly playing a roster full of Lawson Crouse’s when in London. Those teams were skilled and played a skilled hockey including on the back end. I wouldn’t have been upset with Hunter as GM but I’m happy we get to see what Dubas can do.


What does "progressive" mean to you? Serious question.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2061 by Thomas Malthus » Sat May 12, 2018 7:08 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:The main factor for me is about how progressive he is relative to Dubas. That’s tough to tell but he wasn’t exactly playing a roster full of Lawson Crouse’s when in London. Those teams were skilled and played a skilled hockey including on the back end. I wouldn’t have been upset with Hunter as GM but I’m happy we get to see what Dubas can do.


What does "progressive" mean to you? Serious question.


In this context it means willing to deviate from hockey tradition and incorporate new ideas. Not necessarily iconoclastic in the sense that I don't think making different decisions is an attack on these hockey traditions or institutions but similar enough I suppose. Having said that, this sport is steeped in tradition and managers are reluctant to incorporate new ideas or take bold directions and there's some merit to the oft-repeated phrase "it's a copycat league". To me a progressive manager is one who's willing to set trends rather than appeal to tradition or wait until others find success before implementing it themselves. I really believe in there being a first mover advantage, especially when you're at the top of the league and trying to sustain success while others implement the ideas that made you successful. Analytics != being progressive but using analytics can be part of being progressive. Other things I think are examples of being progressive include willingness to get players with certain characteristics (height, nationality, style of play), taking ideas form other leagues (consistently and deliberately trading down in the draft, extending the tiered development system), hiring from outside the typical pool of former players, hiring a coach that (or encouraging them to) plays a different style of hockey (Gallant in Vegas, Cooper in Tampa). Maybe I'm a little pie in the sky and grass in greener over here and I know that these kinds of moves won't always work, but I definitely think finding someone who is in pursuit of the frontier in the sport is the way to go.

I just honestly don't know enough about Hunter to know how progressive he is. He was around for the trading down skill draft, he was in charge of the over-ager draft that may have been analytics driven. He's been around for bringing in more European players to the organization. It's hard to know how much of that was him compared to Dubas but we have more media from Dubas where he talks about having this kind of mindset and we've seen him employ some of this with the Marlies (not just trying to extend the tiered development system but also pouring resources into development and aggressively using PTOs). Hunter might be just as progressive as Dubas but I do know that Dubas fits my vision for a progressive GM and he has a strong track record and has the support of other people who seem good at their jobs (Lou, Shanny, Babs, Francis apparently) so I was hoping more for him than for Hunter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2062 by LeafOfBread » Tue May 15, 2018 8:12 am

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/dreger-caf ... ws~1394041

Decent interview by Dreger with Babs
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2063 by LeafOfBread » Tue May 15, 2018 2:01 pm

So Babs mentioned it in the interview above but Zaitsev has looked great at the WHC. A lot more like the Zaitsev I had been excited for when he first signed here. Hopefully he can play more like that next season.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2064 by Curry Rage » Tue May 15, 2018 3:43 pm

LeafOfBread wrote:So Babs mentioned it in the interview above but Zaitsev has looked great at the WHC. A lot more like the Zaitsev I had been excited for when he first signed here. Hopefully he can play more like that next season.


There was so many rumblings about his health, weight loss, etc. I wonder what was really going on with him. I bet we eventually find out that he was battling pretty hard just to keep playing regularly.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2065 by LeafOfBread » Tue May 15, 2018 4:56 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:So Babs mentioned it in the interview above but Zaitsev has looked great at the WHC. A lot more like the Zaitsev I had been excited for when he first signed here. Hopefully he can play more like that next season.


There was so many rumblings about his health, weight loss, etc. I wonder what was really going on with him. I bet we eventually find out that he was battling pretty hard just to keep playing regularly.

Well I recall he said how after his foot broke, when he came back he lost of a strength/muscle and you could see how he struggled to pivot too. Then he got a bad case of the flu that a lot of people were catching around January/February, and he dropped a good 10 lbs or so. I remember watching the playoffs and being shocked at how tiny he looked. Health was not on his side this year.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2066 by Thomas Malthus » Tue May 15, 2018 4:58 pm

My issues with Zaitsev have always been between the ears.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2067 by LeafOfBread » Tue May 15, 2018 5:39 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:My issues with Zaitsev have always been between the ears.

Yep, he certainly has all the talent and skill to be an impact D.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2068 by LeafOfBread » Wed May 16, 2018 1:45 pm



:danson:
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2069 by Thomas Malthus » Wed May 16, 2018 3:06 pm

Fucking savage. I can just imagine tossing him a "u mad bro?" after that.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2070 by MonkeyWrench » Thu May 17, 2018 1:48 pm

Dubas makes his first move.

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2071 by Thomas Malthus » Thu May 17, 2018 1:53 pm

Lindholm and Ozhiganov night challenge for spots on the Leafs but the other two seem like Marlies moves. Organizational depth is nice. I read that a few teams were in on both Lindholm and Ozhiganov.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2072 by Curry Rage » Thu May 17, 2018 4:42 pm

Oz is an interesting package of size and skating. Likes to step up and run guys too. He and Borgman might make a mobile but heavy 3rd pair that can move the puck somewhere down the line.

Nice to see Lindgren get a contract. He's another interesting player. He's got some great skills. Engvall has earned that contract with his play in the playoffs. A bit of size and reach would be a nice addition to our group. He seems at home on a kind of checking line with Goat.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2073 by LeafOfBread » Thu May 17, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: Lindholm, apparently his size on hockeydb is a little outdated. He was listed as 6'2", 200 lbs for the Olympics.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2074 by Philthy Thrillz » Thu May 17, 2018 8:18 pm

How big are these fellas?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2075 by Curry Rage » Fri May 18, 2018 3:14 am

Philthy Thrillz wrote:How big are these fellas?


Oz is listed as 6'2" and 207. From what I've seen, he plays big. Also has a 100+ mph clapper. We haven't had anyone with that kind of weapon on the back for a long while.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2076 by Curry Rage » Fri May 18, 2018 3:15 am

LeafOfBread wrote:Re: Lindholm, apparently his size on hockeydb is a little outdated. He was listed as 6'2", 200 lbs for the Olympics.


Wow. Because size was one of the big issues with him when he was drafted if I recall right. I guess the protein shakes and squats worked on that one. That's exciting because he can skate and shoot the thing. Hopefully his brain works too.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2077 by Curry Rage » Fri May 18, 2018 8:00 am

Curry Rage wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:Re: Lindholm, apparently his size on hockeydb is a little outdated. He was listed as 6'2", 200 lbs for the Olympics.


Wow. Because size was one of the big issues with him when he was drafted if I recall right. I guess the protein shakes and squats worked on that one. That's exciting because he can skate and shoot the thing. Hopefully his brain works too.


Just realised I mixed up Lindholm and Lindgren. Lindgren was the small D with all the skill. Lindholm is not that.

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2078 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri May 18, 2018 8:40 am

Curry Rage wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:How big are these fellas?


Oz is listed as 6'2" and 207. From what I've seen, he plays big. Also has a 100+ mph clapper. We haven't had anyone with that kind of weapon on the back for a long while.



Nice. Can he hit the broad side of the barn?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2079 by Curry Rage » Fri May 18, 2018 8:45 am

Philthy Thrillz wrote:
Curry Rage wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:How big are these fellas?


Oz is listed as 6'2" and 207. From what I've seen, he plays big. Also has a 100+ mph clapper. We haven't had anyone with that kind of weapon on the back for a long while.



Nice. Can he hit the broad side of the barn?


I presume so. Goal totals are pretty good for the KHL.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... pid=139633
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2080 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri May 18, 2018 8:54 am

Down year this year. Looked fairly consistent the prior three years. Wonder what that was about. By the sounds of the rumours, he was committed to coming over last summer or so. Maybe his heart wasn't in it this year.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2081 by Curry Rage » Fri May 18, 2018 9:09 am

Yeah, there was some talk elsewhere that his coach may have been fucking with his icetime and such when it came out he was looking to come over. Whether that had an effect or not is anyone's guess.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2082 by LeafOfBread » Fri May 18, 2018 9:30 am

Also to note, Kucherov had actually tried vouching for Tampa to bring over Ozhiganov in the past and pumped his tires quite a bit. Same with Gusev, whose rights Tampa did acquire but it looks like Gusev won't be coming over until his contract runs out in the KHL.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2083 by Thomas Malthus » Fri May 18, 2018 10:57 am

Curry Rage wrote:Yeah, there was some talk elsewhere that his coach may have been fucking with his icetime and such when it came out he was looking to come over. Whether that had an effect or not is anyone's guess.


Yeah, I read that too. In the playoffs he suffered an injury but his icetime per game had been down three minutes from the season previous and fell as the season progressed. Apparently Babs was big in getting him to come over (along with Lou), so you have to think that Babs sees at least something he likes. Hell, if having him around means an improvement for Zaitsev too (since they are familiar, former partners) that would be a worthwhile investment.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2084 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri May 18, 2018 11:26 am

Zats old partner... That could be real good if they have chemistry.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2085 by Curry Rage » Fri May 18, 2018 11:41 am

We'll see if Babs is willing to put two righties on a unit.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2086 by AGENT ZERO » Fri May 18, 2018 11:51 am

Curry Rage wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:Re: Lindholm, apparently his size on hockeydb is a little outdated. He was listed as 6'2", 200 lbs for the Olympics.


Wow. Because size was one of the big issues with him when he was drafted if I recall right. I guess the protein shakes and squats worked on that one. That's exciting because he can skate and shoot the thing. Hopefully his brain works too.


I thought the knock on him was that he wasnt a good skater?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2087 by Curry Rage » Fri May 18, 2018 12:49 pm

Lindgren or Lindholm? I was reading quickly and mixed the two up reading LoB's post. Since corrected. Lindgren has always had skating on his list of plusses AFAIK. I don't know a damn thing about Lindholm except what I've watched and seen since he was signed. Couldn't tell you. Who can keep all these Swedes and Russkis straight, anyway? They all look the same to me.

Curry Rage wrote:
Just realised I mixed up Lindholm and Lindgren. Lindgren was the small D with all the skill. Lindholm is not that.

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2088 by Curry Rage » Mon May 21, 2018 4:05 pm

Looks like Lou is off to the Isles. AZ's dream of landing Tavares likely dashed. Rumblings that Hunter may follow, though I can't understand why - if Lou is supposed to be GM - he'd want to leave being 2IC to be 2IC, unless he really does have a problem working for Dubas.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2089 by Philthy Thrillz » Mon May 21, 2018 5:22 pm

Could be a hand shake to promote Hunter in a couple years.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2090 by LeafOfBread » Mon May 21, 2018 7:36 pm

Curry Rage wrote:Looks like Lou is off to the Isles. AZ's dream of landing Tavares likely dashed. Rumblings that Hunter may follow, though I can't understand why - if Lou is supposed to be GM - he'd want to leave being 2IC to be 2IC, unless he really does have a problem working for Dubas.

Are there any real rumblings besides Friedman's speculation (which was just purely his guess)?
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2091 by MonkeyWrench » Mon May 21, 2018 7:43 pm

Not only is he going to allow JT to depart if he decides it's ok, he'll also take Matt Martin back for a 6th.

I didn't expect Lou to stick around too long. I guess it's better to get it over with now rather than later. If he decides now is the time to move on, before the draft, his voice has much more of an impact.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2092 by LeafOfBread » Mon May 21, 2018 11:54 pm

Apparently Hunter wasn't at the memorial cup with the rest of the Leafs brass. I won't jump to conclusions yet, but if Hunter does indeed leave for a non-GM role somewhere else then good riddance I say. Don't want that saltiness around here.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2093 by Curry Rage » Tue May 22, 2018 2:35 am

LeafOfBread wrote:
Curry Rage wrote:Looks like Lou is off to the Isles. AZ's dream of landing Tavares likely dashed. Rumblings that Hunter may follow, though I can't understand why - if Lou is supposed to be GM - he'd want to leave being 2IC to be 2IC, unless he really does have a problem working for Dubas.

Are there any real rumblings besides Friedman's speculation (which was just purely his guess)?


I dunno. You've chased that up further than me, evidently. There seemed to be more than one person in the media saying his nose might be out of joint if he didn't get the GM job a few weeks back, if memory serves.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2094 by Curry Rage » Tue May 22, 2018 2:40 am

LeafOfBread wrote:Apparently Hunter wasn't at the memorial cup with the rest of the Leafs brass. I won't jump to conclusions yet, but if Hunter does indeed leave for a non-GM role somewhere else then good riddance I say. Don't want that saltiness around here.


He's a proud and competitive guy. That's nothing new. He was when he played.

There's been plenty more sour grapes kicking around the webz since this latest rumour started, though. Apparently your draft guy has to get a whole bunch of obvious steals that totally outpace standard development timelines in his first couple of years on the job or he's not really all that. People are weird.

You judge your drafting a few years down the road by how many in-house guys are making big contributions to your club or got you key assets in return. Patience.

My biggest concern would be what happens to all the guys Hunts brought in if he bolts?
*Buy Oil Stocks!*
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LeafOfBread
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2095 by LeafOfBread » Tue May 22, 2018 9:20 am

Aaaaand he's gone. Cya.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2096 by paulster » Tue May 22, 2018 9:39 am

No time for butthurt. GTFO.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2097 by AGENT ZERO » Tue May 22, 2018 10:02 am

Curry Rage wrote:Looks like Lou is off to the Isles. AZ's dream of landing Tavares likely dashed. Rumblings that Hunter may follow, though I can't understand why - if Lou is supposed to be GM - he'd want to leave being 2IC to be 2IC, unless he really does have a problem working for Dubas.


I doubt Lamoriello is going to impact Tavares decision. If he was going to leave before he will still leave, and vice versa if he was going to stay.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2098 by AGENT ZERO » Tue May 22, 2018 10:05 am

I can't believe he left right before the draft.
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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2099 by AGENT ZERO » Tue May 22, 2018 10:09 am

Nvm

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Re: ongoing 2017-2018 season discussion

Post #2100 by clawfirst » Tue May 22, 2018 10:09 am

This smells bad

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