Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #51 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:07 pm

LeafOfBread wrote:
Curry Rage wrote:Not sayin' (just sayin) but it doesn't surprise me there's less talk about Dermott being robbed after a game in which he was 37% on the Corsiwicks in just 11 minutes. I haven't watched it yet, but there's always a learning curve for young D. Not surprised he didn't look like a world-beater against St. Loo's forecheck.

Eh, although that is a pretty terrible corsiwick, when your partner is someone whose relative impact on possession is negative for all but 2 players on the team, I wouldn't really hold it against him. Also, Babs actually used Dermott-Polak as a defensive pairing and sheltered the Gardiner-Carrick pairing more based on zone starts. In terms of the eye test, Dermott looked decent but I can admit that I have a bias as well.

In the grand scheme of things it makes what Borgman has been doing this season all the more impressive.


Borgman has been good. Dermott is getting the look he deserves.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #52 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:11 pm

vf wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:So you guys are telling me, if you guys were on the management team and were looking back over the past few months you're thinking "good job guys, that's what winning hockey looks like"?


I would think: There will be pain this is ugly hockey and it's regular fucking season, but, those floating fuckfaces are learning the hard way what it takes to win ugly. Carlyle got us into the playoffs and the team couldn't handle playoff hockey. I believe this team will be much better prepared to handle it. Because they've been forced to play ugly hockey. I figured you for a processes guy Thommy.


I'd love to know how playing Komarov the most minutes, benching Leivo, playing Polak, reducing Marners ice tkme by a minute from last year, and generally withholding the core guys on the Marlies is good process. It really just feels like Babs is leaning on the guys he trusts, most of whom are vets. I don't buy that this is all about making us better for the post season.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #53 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:29 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:So you guys are telling me, if you guys were on the management team and were looking back over the past few months you're thinking "good job guys, that's what winning hockey looks like"?


I would think: There will be pain this is ugly hockey and it's regular fucking season, but, those floating fuckfaces are learning the hard way what it takes to win ugly. Carlyle got us into the playoffs and the team couldn't handle playoff hockey. I believe this team will be much better prepared to handle it. Because they've been forced to play ugly hockey. I figured you for a processes guy Thommy.


I'd love to know how playing Komarov the most minutes, benching Leivo, playing Polak, reducing Marners ice tkme by a minute from last year, and generally withholding the core guys on the Marlies is good process. It really just feels like Babs is leaning on the guys he trusts, most of whom are vets. I don't buy that this is all about making us better for the post season.


Why does he trust them? Could it be because Leo is a better all-situations player than Leivo? Marner gets more minutes than both his vet linemates. Matthews, Hyman and Nylander all get more than that and the first two have the highest ATOI among forwards. Probably because he trusts their defensive games over Marner's.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #54 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 pm

What do Matthews, Hyman, Marleau, Leo and Kadri have in common?
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #55 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:34 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
I would think: There will be pain this is ugly hockey and it's regular fucking season, but, those floating fuckfaces are learning the hard way what it takes to win ugly. Carlyle got us into the playoffs and the team couldn't handle playoff hockey. I believe this team will be much better prepared to handle it. Because they've been forced to play ugly hockey. I figured you for a processes guy Thommy.


I'd love to know how playing Komarov the most minutes, benching Leivo, playing Polak, reducing Marners ice tkme by a minute from last year, and generally withholding the core guys on the Marlies is good process. It really just feels like Babs is leaning on the guys he trusts, most of whom are vets. I don't buy that this is all about making us better for the post season.


Why does he trust them? Could it be because Leo is a better all-situations player than Leivo?


That is a great question Courage because right now the guys he trusts aren't making us better, and according to you guys this is about being better in the playoffs. If that is the case shouldn't the young guys be the ones playing and learning? If the vets haven't figured it out by now we should probably be moving on from them.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #56 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:36 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
That is a great question Courage because right now the guys he trusts aren't making us better, and according to you guys this is about being better in the playoffs. If that is the case shouldn't the young guys be the ones playing and learning? If the vets haven't figured it out by now we should probably be moving on from them.


They're making us better than if kids were doing the same jobs. Of course, quite a few of the kids are already top minute-getters. Not sure what more you want. All Mitch all the time?

When the kids are better, they'll do the jobs.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #57 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:45 pm

Top forwards by total icetime

Matthews
Hyman
Marleau
Komarov
Nylander
Knads
Marner
Bozak
Brown
JVR



5v5 (a good test of who the coach trusts)

Matthews
Hyman
Nylander
Marleau
Kadri
Marner
Bozak
Leo
JVR
Brown

Does that look that remiss to you? Other than Brown, I'm not sure who might deserve to be anywhere different on the list based on their overall game. Hyman? He gets Matthews the puck. Due to roles, systems, handedness, etc. players aren't all substitutable.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #58 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:49 pm

PP

JVR
Bozie
Matthews
Marner
Marleau
Nylander
(Leivo)
Kadri
Brown
Leo
Hyman


PK

Leo
Hyman
Brown
Moore
(Goat)
Everyone else below :30/G
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #59 by LeafOfBread » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:58 pm

The OT deployment is something that I just legitimately cannot wrap my head around. 3v3 is pretty much 'last possession wins'. He starts Kadri and Komarov to match up defensively, they usually never get the puck or manage to lose it / dump it in then change and Matthews / Nylander have to fight to get possession back. Matthews is 55% on the draw, put him out there and let him try and win the face-off.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #60 by vf » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
That is a great question Courage because right now the guys he trusts aren't making us better, and according to you guys this is about being better in the playoffs. If that is the case shouldn't the young guys be the ones playing and learning? If the vets haven't figured it out by now we should probably be moving on from them.


They're making us better than if kids were doing the same jobs. Of course, quite a few of the kids are already top minute-getters. Not sure what more you want. All Mitch all the time?

When the kids are better, they'll do the jobs.


It's almost like he's trying to make the kids work harder and earn more ice time. How stupid!
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #61 by vf » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:28 pm

LeafOfBread wrote:The OT deployment is something that I just legitimately cannot wrap my head around. 3v3 is pretty much 'last possession wins'. He starts Kadri and Komarov to match up defensively, they usually never get the puck or manage to lose it / dump it in then change and Matthews / Nylander have to fight to get possession back. Matthews is 55% on the draw, put him out there and let him try and win the face-off.


I could be wrong since the nhl site is just fucking garbage now, but, aren't the Leafs 8-4 in OT(including SO) this season?
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #62 by stoney » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:29 pm

Curry Rage wrote:Not sayin' (just sayin) but it doesn't surprise me there's less talk about Dermott being robbed after a game in which he was 37% on the Corsiwicks in just 11 minutes. I haven't watched it yet, but there's always a learning curve for young D. Not surprised he didn't look like a world-beater against St. Loo's forecheck.


He had some good moments, including a nice chance on net.

Polak didn't look terrible last night.

We did lose a goal because two gorillas had to fight it out after a hit. That sucked.

They just aren't scoring goals, yet seem totally fine rolling the same lines doing all the same things. Best of luck to them.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #63 by stoney » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:31 pm

LeafOfBread wrote:The OT deployment is something that I just legitimately cannot wrap my head around. 3v3 is pretty much 'last possession wins'. He starts Kadri and Komarov to match up defensively, they usually never get the puck or manage to lose it / dump it in then change and Matthews / Nylander have to fight to get possession back. Matthews is 55% on the draw, put him out there and let him try and win the face-off.


It was Kadri Hyman last night.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #64 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:10 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
vf wrote:
I would think: There will be pain this is ugly hockey and it's regular fucking season, but, those floating fuckfaces are learning the hard way what it takes to win ugly. Carlyle got us into the playoffs and the team couldn't handle playoff hockey. I believe this team will be much better prepared to handle it. Because they've been forced to play ugly hockey. I figured you for a processes guy Thommy.


I'd love to know how playing Komarov the most minutes, benching Leivo, playing Polak, reducing Marners ice tkme by a minute from last year, and generally withholding the core guys on the Marlies is good process. It really just feels like Babs is leaning on the guys he trusts, most of whom are vets. I don't buy that this is all about making us better for the post season.


Why does he trust them? Could it be because Leo is a better all-situations player than Leivo? Marner gets more minutes than both his vet linemates. Matthews, Hyman and Nylander all get more than that and the first two have the highest ATOI among forwards. Probably because he trusts their defensive games over Marner's.


This is where you lose me Courage, Marner is arguably the second most talented player on this roster. You don't drop his minutes because he doesn't play as good defensively as a Komarov or Hyman, that is stupid. There are multiple dimensions to a hockey player, and the cumulative impact of Marner is greater than most of those guys that you listed. Patrick Kane is a pretty terrible defensive player too, but it didn't seem to prevent the Hawks from riding him en route to multiple Stanley Cups.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #65 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:16 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
That is a great question Courage because right now the guys he trusts aren't making us better, and according to you guys this is about being better in the playoffs. If that is the case shouldn't the young guys be the ones playing and learning? If the vets haven't figured it out by now we should probably be moving on from them.


They're making us better than if kids were doing the same jobs. Of course, quite a few of the kids are already top minute-getters. Not sure what more you want. All Mitch all the time?

When the kids are better, they'll do the jobs.


I want Marner (15:43) and JVR (14:39) to be in the 18-20 minute range, likewise with Nylander (16:42), and I would like to see the Leafs begin to dictate matchups with their speed and skill instead of trying to line-match against the opposition by overplaying Marleau-Kadri-Komarov. I'd also like to see the Leafs insert Leivo and Kapanen into the lineup more consistently, and give opportunities to the players on the Marlies who have helped lead them to first in the conference and 1st in GA.

Second, the kids are already better. We got into the playoffs for the first teams in years by inserting a record amount of youth into the lineup lat season, not by overplaying the vets.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #66 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:20 pm

Curry Rage wrote:Top forwards by total icetime

Matthews
Hyman
Marleau
Komarov
Nylander
Knads
Marner
Bozak
Brown
JVR



5v5 (a good test of who the coach trusts)

Matthews
Hyman
Nylander
Marleau
Kadri
Marner
Bozak
Leo
JVR
Brown

Does that look that remiss to you? Other than Brown, I'm not sure who might deserve to be anywhere different on the list based on their overall game. Hyman? He gets Matthews the puck. Due to roles, systems, handedness, etc. players aren't all substitutable.


Now show the actual ice-time and compare it to what the top players on TB and BOS are getting. The Leafs don't play their best players enough.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #67 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:40 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:This is where you lose me Courage, Marner is arguably the second most talented player on this roster. You don't drop his minutes because he doesn't play as good defensively as a Komarov or Hyman, that is stupid. There are multiple dimensions to a hockey player, and the cumulative impact of Marner is greater than most of those guys that you listed. Patrick Kane is a pretty terrible defensive player too, but it didn't seem to prevent the Hawks from utilizing him en route to multiple Stanley Cups.


So, do you just take a subjective poll about who is the most *talented* and give out ice time based on your impressions? If Marner was getting the 2nd most icetime, would this team suddenly play better hockey? LOL.

You put players in positions that compliment one another because it's a team game. What if we give Marner Hyman's minutes? Substituting in a small winger who gets his *2nd most talented* ass handed to him in the corners regularly isn't going to make Matthews and Nylander any better. The cumulative impact of him getting pushed off the puck is that your two most prolific scorers are now worse and Marner - whose talent is with the puck - sees less of it. Not to mention you now don't have a secondary scoring line and teams can shut you down too easily.

So, you give Marner his own line to drive against lesser competition and top-6 5v5 icetime, i.e. more 5v5 and PP time than Komarov. He gets offensive minutes and PP time with offensive players. It's their deficiencies that means he sees a bit less ice than he might otherwise. Compromises have to be made. It's a team game.

Or maybe you put Marner on the Knads line. Now he's spending his energy and *2nd most talent* playing the shittiest matchup minutes of all, spending most of his shifts in his own zone defending and you probably make that line worse at its job because Leo is a far better defensive player.

Great. Less diverse scoring and a worse matchup line. Not how I'd try to win more games. YMMV.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #68 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:52 pm

But playing Komarov who is getting destroyed in shot attempts and is on pace for 7 goals 17 minutes a night makes sense?
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #69 by Philthy Thrillz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:03 pm

I think management, Babs included have the future in mind. It's two fold really. The team learns how to play good two way hockey, and the young guns aren't running and gunning their way to 9, 10+ million dollar contracts. It's a thing to be sure.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #70 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:13 pm

Philthy Thrillz wrote:I think management, Babs included have the future in mind. It's two fold really. The team learns how to play good two way hockey, and the young guns aren't running and gunning their way to 9, 10+ million dollar contracts. It's a thing to be sure.


I don't buy the contract argument because it would mean we are sacrificing the cheapest years of the big 3, which doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #71 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:17 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Now show the actual ice-time and compare it to what the top players on TB and BOS are getting. The Leafs don't play their best players enough.


Who gives a shit about what BOS does? I didn't realise they were who we should be comparing ourselves to. But, I'll bite. Let's look at EV TOI since PP time isn't handed out at the same rate to all teams.

Matthews (1st): 16:20 EV TOI would be 1st on BOS and 2nd on TBL to Kucherov (16:32).

Nylander (3rd) 14:31 would put him 4th on BOS and 5th on TBL by 11 seconds. So, basically 4th.

Marner (6th): 13:24 EV TOI puts him 6th on all three clubs.

Our most talented guys are getting the same minutes as those teams' top 6 players.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #72 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:21 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:But playing Komarov who is getting destroyed in shot attempts and is on pace for 7 goals 17 minutes a night makes sense?


Yes. Take away his 2:56 of SH TOI and he's 8th on the club in EV TOI. All your beloved *talent* is getting more ice than him save for JVR.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #73 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:25 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:I think management, Babs included have the future in mind. It's two fold really. The team learns how to play good two way hockey, and the young guns aren't running and gunning their way to 9, 10+ million dollar contracts. It's a thing to be sure.


I don't buy the contract argument because it would mean we are sacrificing the cheapest years of the big 3, which doesn't make much sense.


Sacrificing them by being solidly in a playoff position 2 years after we were damn near the worst team in the league.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #74 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:26 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:This is where you lose me Courage, Marner is arguably the second most talented player on this roster. You don't drop his minutes because he doesn't play as good defensively as a Komarov or Hyman, that is stupid. There are multiple dimensions to a hockey player, and the cumulative impact of Marner is greater than most of those guys that you listed. Patrick Kane is a pretty terrible defensive player too, but it didn't seem to prevent the Hawks from utilizing him en route to multiple Stanley Cups.


So, do you just take a subjective poll about who is the most *talented* and give out ice time based on your impressions? If Marner was getting the 2nd most icetime, would this team suddenly play better hockey? LOL.

You put players in positions that compliment one another because it's a team game. What if we give Marner Hyman's minutes? Substituting in a small winger who gets his *2nd most talented* ass handed to him in the corners regularly isn't going to make Matthews and Nylander any better. The cumulative impact of him getting pushed off the puck is that your two most prolific scorers are now worse and Marner - whose talent is with the puck - sees less of it. Not to mention you now don't have a secondary scoring line and teams can shut you down too easily.

So, you give Marner his own line to drive against lesser competition and top-6 5v5 icetime, i.e. more 5v5 and PP time than Komarov. He gets offensive minutes and PP time with offensive players. It's their deficiencies that means he sees a bit less ice than he might otherwise. Compromises have to be made. It's a team game.

Or maybe you put Marner on the Knads line. Now he's spending his energy and *2nd most talent* playing the shittiest matchup minutes of all, spending most of his shifts in his own zone defending and you probably make that line worse at its job because Leo is a far better defensive player.

Great. Less diverse scoring and a worse matchup line. Not how I'd try to win more games. YMMV.


That is exactly how I feel about this season... If it were up to me I would change the matchup line because it is not working and experiment with options on the Marlies because I do not believe the solution to the Leafs problem is currently on the roster. I agree with you that the balanced line approach is the right approach, and that Marner is not as good defensively as Nylander so I would swap Marner on the top line and give Nylander an opportunity to pivot his own line (preferably JVR - Nylander - Johnsson/Kapanen).

I also think the Leafs should just matchup Matthews with whoever the oppositions best players are, and matchup our secondary lines with the oppositions best secondary lines. I think it's a matchup that favors the Leafs more often than not.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #75 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:28 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:I think management, Babs included have the future in mind. It's two fold really. The team learns how to play good two way hockey, and the young guns aren't running and gunning their way to 9, 10+ million dollar contracts. It's a thing to be sure.


I don't buy the contract argument because it would mean we are sacrificing the cheapest years of the big 3, which doesn't make much sense.


Sacrificing them by being solidly in a playoff position 2 years after we were damn near the worst team in the league.


So you think the Leafs are cutting the ice-time of Matthews, Marner and Nylander so that they have less bargaining power for a big deal when their RFA deals expire?
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #76 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:34 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
Now show the actual ice-time and compare it to what the top players on TB and BOS are getting. The Leafs don't play their best players enough.


Who gives a shit about what BOS does? I didn't realise they were who we should be comparing ourselves to. But, I'll bite. Let's look at EV TOI since PP time isn't handed out at the same rate to all teams.

Matthews (1st): 16:20 EV TOI would be 1st on BOS and 2nd on TBL to Kucherov (16:32).

Nylander (3rd) 14:31 would put him 4th on BOS and 5th on TBL by 11 seconds. So, basically 4th.

Marner (6th): 13:24 EV TOI puts him 6th on all three clubs.

Our most talented guys are getting the same minutes as those teams' top 6 players.


I compared us to Boston and Tampa Bay because those are the top two teams in our division, and also the two teams we need to beat to advance in the playoffs. Matthews is admittedly higher than I thought he was, but Nylander, Marner and JVR should all be higher than they are, especially Marner and JVR.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #77 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:35 pm

We got into the playoffs for the first teams in years by inserting a record amount of youth into the lineup lat season, not by overplaying the vets.


The same guys are in the lineup. Matthews, Nylander and Hyman are playing more minutes than last year. Rielly is playing more. Connor Brown is playing less, but lost his spot to a Hall of Famer.

EV TOI for vets:

Bozak down.
JVR down
Knads down
Leo up 9 seconds

ATOI

Bozak down
JVR down
Kadri down
Leo down (but basically the same)

Marner is the only significant youth guy seeing a lot less ice but, frankly, he hasn't been as dangerous this year either.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #78 by Curry Rage » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:37 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
I compared us to Boston and Tampa Bay because those are the top two teams in our division, and also the two teams we need to beat to advance in the playoffs. Matthews is admittedly higher than I thought he was, but Nylander, Marner and JVR should all be higher than they are, especially Marner and JVR.


You don't see a difference between giving Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, Stammer or Kucherov big minutes and a bunch of 20-year-olds?

Whose 5v5 minutes do Marner and JVR deserve? Marleau's? Kadri's? They're getting basically the same PP time as last year.

Somehow, in managed minutes, Marner is still producing (3rd in points) and JVR is tied for 1st on the club in goals. How much more do you expect to get out of them?
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #79 by clawfirst » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:35 pm

Curry Rage wrote:What do Matthews, Hyman, Marleau, Leo and Kadri have in common?

The ability to ride a roller coaster without an adult
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #80 by clawfirst » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:37 pm

Babcock doesnt shorten the bench till its make something happen time. Trailing in the 3rd...a few week slump for Datsyuk and zetterberg on different lines leading to a game where they play together..ect
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #81 by clawfirst » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:41 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
I'd love to know how playing Komarov the most minutes, benching Leivo, playing Polak, reducing Marners ice tkme by a minute from last year, and generally withholding the core guys on the Marlies is good process. It really just feels like Babs is leaning on the guys he trusts, most of whom are vets. I don't buy that this is all about making us better for the post season.


Why does he trust them? Could it be because Leo is a better all-situations player than Leivo? Marner gets more minutes than both his vet linemates. Matthews, Hyman and Nylander all get more than that and the first two have the highest ATOI among forwards. Probably because he trusts their defensive games over Marner's.


This is where you lose me Courage, Marner is arguably the second most talented player on this roster. You don't drop his minutes because he doesn't play as good defensively as a Komarov or Hyman, that is stupid. There are multiple dimensions to a hockey player, and the cumulative impact of Marner is greater than most of those guys that you listed. Patrick Kane is a pretty terrible defensive player too, but it didn't seem to prevent the Hawks from riding him en route to multiple Stanley Cups.

This is why you were a soccer player. Coaching hockey is about limiting error and risk management. High event hockey is bad hockey to a coach who can only teach one thing...lowering events.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #82 by Philthy Thrillz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:13 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:I think management, Babs included have the future in mind. It's two fold really. The team learns how to play good two way hockey, and the young guns aren't running and gunning their way to 9, 10+ million dollar contracts. It's a thing to be sure.


I don't buy the contract argument because it would mean we are sacrificing the cheapest years of the big 3, which doesn't make much sense.


They aren't good enough to win it all. Letting them go to town and rack up a shit tonne of points all the while neglecting their own end, is a surefire way to encourage entitlement, a shitty hockey team, and cap hell.

Imo, it will be more beneficial for the future with players that play a solid two-way game on cheaper second contracts rather than overpaid cherry pickers.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #83 by stoney » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:56 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
I compared us to Boston and Tampa Bay because those are the top two teams in our division, and also the two teams we need to beat to advance in the playoffs. Matthews is admittedly higher than I thought he was, but Nylander, Marner and JVR should all be higher than they are, especially Marner and JVR.


You don't see a difference between giving Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, Stammer or Kucherov big minutes and a bunch of 20-year-olds?

Whose 5v5 minutes do Marner and JVR deserve? Marleau's? Kadri's? They're getting basically the same PP time as last year.

Somehow, in managed minutes, Marner is still producing (3rd in points) and JVR is tied for 1st on the club in goals. How much more do you expect to get out of them?


All things aside, we can get more from JVR. Career pace and all, but he is a stud.

I hope when we need more, he gets some added time in with more teammates.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #84 by Dynrehab » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:37 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote: If the team was supposed to be learning why haven't we seen improvement since the style switch?


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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #85 by Dynrehab » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:46 pm

Philthy Thrillz wrote:I think management, Babs included have the future in mind. It's two fold really. The team learns how to play good two way hockey, and the young guns aren't running and gunning their way to 9, 10+ million dollar contracts. It's a thing to be sure.


I think the future they are looking at is May and June, and not future seasons. Guys fatigue in an 82 games season. Balanced ice time is fine, unless the goal is home ice advantage in round 1 which means very little.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #86 by LeafOfBread » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:11 am

vf wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:The OT deployment is something that I just legitimately cannot wrap my head around. 3v3 is pretty much 'last possession wins'. He starts Kadri and Komarov to match up defensively, they usually never get the puck or manage to lose it / dump it in then change and Matthews / Nylander have to fight to get possession back. Matthews is 55% on the draw, put him out there and let him try and win the face-off.


I could be wrong since the nhl site is just fucking garbage now, but, aren't the Leafs 8-4 in OT(including SO) this season?

Yes. Earlier in the season Babcock was rolling out Matthews / Nylander / Marleau / Marner with Rielly to start usually, and they were the ones who scored the OT goals. The last few OT games he reverted back to the Kadri / Komarov combination to start off, though he put Hyman last night instead like stoney said, which is marginally better but still not their best combo. If he really wants to try and do a defensive matchup it would at least make sense to put Marleau who is good defensively and has hands.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #87 by clawfirst » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:16 am

Dynrehab wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:I think management, Babs included have the future in mind. It's two fold really. The team learns how to play good two way hockey, and the young guns aren't running and gunning their way to 9, 10+ million dollar contracts. It's a thing to be sure.


I think the future they are looking at is May and June, and not future seasons. Guys fatigue in an 82 games season. Balanced ice time is fine, unless the goal is home ice advantage in round 1 which means very little.

The real advanced stats, max output/usage
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #88 by Curry Rage » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:21 am

If you're wondering why Leo plays the amount he does, re watch the St. Loo game and focus on him playing F3 and when he's the weak side back checker. Art.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #89 by Thomas Malthus » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:05 pm

I don't disagree that Komarov is one of, if not the, best defensive players on the team. My problem is that his lack of offense this year is contributing to how unsuccessful out shutdown line is. If you're constantly getting outshot and outchanced by the other team's best lines what exactly are you shutting down?

I've had this retirement savings analogy stuck in my head. There's one kind of risk when saving, that's volatile and uncertain returns from riskier assets like stocks. If the response to that is to park your savings in bonds, there's still another kind of risk—that you won't have enough savings come retirement.

I'm not sure how clear the analogy is but in this case Nylander and Marner are the stocks and Komarov is the bond. Sure, you can play Leo more because you want to eliminate the risk from playing Marner and Nylander but then you risk not being able to win the game because Komarov's line generates no offense.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #90 by paulster » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:25 pm

Well then we need to trade for a flashy Russian so we can have a bitcoin.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #91 by WTF » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:15 pm

paulster wrote:Well then we need to trade for a flashy Russian so we can have a bitcoin.


What's Filatov up to these days?
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #92 by Dynrehab » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:39 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:
I'm not sure how clear the analogy is but in this case Nylander and Marner are the stocks and Komarov is the bond. Sure, you can play Leo more because you want to eliminate the risk from playing Marner and Nylander but then you risk not being able to win the game because Komarov's line generates no offense.


Are you looking at the risk of a singular game? Because the risk in the regular season is Make the playoffs vs not making the playoffs. I think the analogy is more like a poker game. You need $100 to get in the game. When you are at $200 and the tournament starts in 2 months, you try some different things to make you a better poker player but just make sure you don't get close to or below $100. You just want in the tournament with as much skill and experience as possible. This team, while slumping is playing .500 hockey or better. There isn't that much risk of not getting in the playoffs and I fail to see the risk for the long term of this team.

In the past 10, they have 11 points. They lost an overtime game 2 nights ago after allowing a late goal. They lost to Ottawa after giving up a late goal. They lost to Columbus in overtime after giving up 2 late goals. They are leaving a few points on the table, but nothing serious. Other than Vegas at noon on New Years Eve and a 2-0 loss to the Lightning, they have been in games.

Also, the "because of their division" doesn't cut it for me either. They still have 3 games with Florida, 4 with Buffalo and 2 with Ottawa, 2 with Detroit and 2 with the Habs. They haven't been feasting on bottom feeders and they have played a tonne of road games up until the past week. And by conference they would still be 4 points up on a playoff spot.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #93 by paulster » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:43 pm

They were in the lightning game as well - it was quite entertaining.

Las Vegas they still were able to make it interesting for a few minutes despite the early blowout.

Leafs are a good team!
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #94 by Curry Rage » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:53 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:I don't disagree that Komarov is one of, if not the, best defensive players on the team. My problem is that his lack of offense this year is contributing to how unsuccessful out shutdown line is. If you're constantly getting outshot and outchanced by the other team's best lines what exactly are you shutting down?

I've had this retirement savings analogy stuck in my head. There's one kind of risk when saving, that's volatile and uncertain returns from riskier assets like stocks. If the response to that is to park your savings in bonds, there's still another kind of risk—that you won't have enough savings come retirement.

I'm not sure how clear the analogy is but in this case Nylander and Marner are the stocks and Komarov is the bond. Sure, you can play Leo more because you want to eliminate the risk from playing Marner and Nylander but then you risk not being able to win the game because Komarov's line generates no offense.


Both of those guys do play more than Leo at ES and on the PP and they're both paired with great offensive players. Komarov's linemates are both pacing for 25-30 goals/82 GP
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #95 by vf » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:07 pm

Leo is almost at half of his career shooting percentage, shouldn't we be expecting some regression to the mean? If he shot his career shooting percentage this season he'd be on pace for 14 goals. His exact total from last season.
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Re: Good Bunch of Men host St. Louis Blues - 7:00 PM TSN

Post #96 by Curry Rage » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:30 pm

vf wrote:Leo is almost at half of his career shooting percentage, shouldn't we be expecting some regression to the mean? If he shot his career shooting percentage this season he'd be on pace for 14 goals. His exact total from last season.


Nah, he's done.

Seriously, though, I think I read/heard that line are shooting a cumulative 4% over some stretch or something gawdawful like that. Both Marleau and Kadri have pretty good career numbers. I don't think Leo is the factor dragging them down.
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