2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Results: Will still lose to Boston in 7 games
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #301 by LeafOfBread » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:31 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:Well, there goes my plans to trade Mango for help on the backend.

He's out at least 8 weeks with surgery on his knee.

Yep. Good news though is that it does open up $3.4M in cap relief and if he comes back for playoffs it wouldn't affect them cap-wise, so there's at least that. Hopefully Ceci stays out as well and then you have $7.9M to work with.

AZ wrote:If we get a 4 year term I will be over the moon. I was scared of 6 years, and thought for sure the term would be 5 at minimum.


Yeah 4 is pretty solid. I think Muzzin should be able to play at this level for another 2 years at least, and then maybe a bit of a decline after that which I can live with. Fingers crossed he can stay healthy.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #302 by Curry Rage » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:19 am

I’ll put this here because he’s an oft mentioned trade target.



Chip off the old block. His old man was a beaut.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #303 by LeafOfBread » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:22 am

Curry Rage wrote:I’ll put this here because he’s an oft mentioned trade target.



Chip off the old block. His old man was a beaut.

That was beautiful. The hit itself wasn't even bad, completely clean, Elias just needs to be stronger. Hilarious watching Bambi getting taken out like that
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #304 by Curry Rage » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:28 am

And another reason you’d have to pay through the nose for Manson. Every guy in that room will have noticed.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #305 by AGENT ZERO » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:35 am

I would kill for that kind of player on the Leafs.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #306 by Curry Rage » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:19 am

With all the injuries and upheaval, I don’t think this team is a true contender this season, regardless of how they might do against PIT and TB. The record under Keefe is good but I think it masks some deeper issues and is becoming harder and harder to sustain now that other teams have had time to scout the system and adjust.

Rielly won’t be at 100% when he returns. Their key depth guys like Soup and Johnsson are out and will still be nursing injuries even should they return, and it’s those types of players that make this team a real three or four line threat. Injuries and illness have allowed us to get a look at Kerfoot, Engvall and Spezza in bigger roles than you might like and it’s evident our depth isn’t quite good enough to overcome the setbacks we’ve had.

I’m a bit risk averse but, if I’m Dubas, I’m probably not doing much at the deadline unless it fills a long term need. We sort of made our short-term deadline type deal when we brought in Barrie in a contract year. Making short term moves now wouldn’t really be loading up as much as just plugging gaps.

I’d let this year play out and look to (once again) work on the defense this summer and put some faith in Sandin, Dermott and Lily being ready for more responsibility next year. I still don’t know how Dermott fits in when Rielly returns, you sign Muzzin and permanently promote Sandin, but I do fear that he just needs some more reps and moving him now to rebalance the pairs wouldn’t be moving him at anything near peak value. He’s a bit of a tweener: he’s not a high end offensive talent you can shelter defensively and still get value from and he’s not a pure shutdown kind of player either. He’s trying to find the right balance and role for himself and non-elite defenseman (and a lot of the elite ones) tend to take time to develop. The “league is younger” thing is all about offensive production and young guys have legs. But defense remains largely about decision-making and brains take a bit longer to develop in response to experience.

The right side of the D remains a much bigger concern. While Holl has been passable with Muzzin in a matchup role, I don’t think there’s much more upside there and he feels like a guy I’d ideally want playing on the bottom pairing.

Fuck Barrie. Mr. “Norris in Toronto” will want money and term and his agent will be selling teams on the story that big, bad Babs ruined his year and he never got on track blah blah. He’s dumb and I think you fuck everything else up trying to shelter him. He’s treading water statistically right now getting soft defensive minutes playing with the Matthews line and starting in the OZ 60% of the time (57% on the year incl. Babcock using him with Muzzin). At some point you can’t have a roster full of guys who need special conditions to thrive. You have to have guys in your top-4 who you can trust a little to do a bit of everything. You can have some guys you use in special roles but only if the upside is so good that you turn a blind eye to the problems it creates elsewhere. To me, he’s no Tory Krug. I hope Dubas - who has shown a penchant for giving players a lot of rope (see: Hutchinson - doesn’t consider the optics of losing Barrie within a year of being traded for Kadri and just eats his shit and lets him walk, despite the gaping hole on the right side. I honestly don’t see him being more than a nuisance who scores now and again.

I re-up Clifford and probably even Spezza even though I know the latter puts off the problem of having reliable fourth line C depth ready to go when his wheels really start to fall off. Bye bye Cody Ceci. I already wonder if the swiftness with which he was put on LTIR despite the injury never looking really obvious (even Mo looked hobbled at times) didn’t signal that management were already looking at this year as a development (rather than a contention) year and they’re prepping for life without him.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #307 by LeafOfBread » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:11 am

Considering that it seems like a seller's market, I'd like Dubas to sell off Barrie, and explore selling other assets as well and just recoup. Tampa had a year like this in 2017 where they were decimated by injuries all year and couldn't get it going despite coming off a finals and ECF appearance the previous two years. They ended up selling (remember Brian Boyle, folks?), yet they still made a late run where they almost took the Leafs spot and only missed by a point or something like that, and the following year came back strong with another division title and ECF appearance and re-loaded with assets to work with.

The Barrie trade has already been incredibly disappointing, to have him walk without even making the playoffs would be a disaster.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #308 by AZ » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:14 am

It wont happen, but I honestly wouldn't mind if the Leafs sold a couple short term pieces at the deadline to recoup a pick or two because I see no realistic scenario where we beat TB or BOS.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #309 by paulster » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:27 am

LeafOfBread wrote:Considering that it seems like a seller's market, I'd like Dubas to sell off Barrie, and explore selling other assets as well and just recoup. Tampa had a year like this in 2017 where they were decimated by injuries all year and couldn't get it going despite coming off a finals and ECF appearance the previous two years. They ended up selling (remember Brian Boyle, folks?), yet they still made a late run where they almost took the Leafs spot and only missed by a point or something like that, and the following year came back strong with another division title and ECF appearance and re-loaded with assets to work with.

The Barrie trade has already been incredibly disappointing, to have him walk without even making the playoffs would be a disaster.


Im down with this. I have no desire to watch our current roster in the playoffs. And as far as I’m concerned, with what I’ve seen this year they don’t deserve it. They need to learn that it takes a lot of clawing and scraping and hard work to make the post season - there are no guarantees.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #310 by AGENT ZERO » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:42 am

I agree with both of you, this isn't the year so re-load some assets to replenish the pool. I'm still annoyed that we lost: Bozak, JVR, and Gardiner for nothing. It would be wasteful to add Barrie to the list in what may not even be a playoff year.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #311 by paulster » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:26 am

AGENT ZERO wrote:I agree with both of you, this isn't the year so re-load some assets to replenish the pool. I'm still annoyed that we lost: Bozak, JVR, and Gardiner for nothing. It would be wasteful to add Barrie to the list in what may not even be a playoff year.


At the time, losing those guys for nothing wasn’t that bad of an idea. This year it would seem crazy not to unload expiring fillers and shore up the D for next year.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #312 by LeafOfBread » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:39 am

Yeah, we can say it sucked in hindsight but reality is that those guys were big pieces for the team at the time and we needed them if we had aspirations of trying to go deep. In Bozak and JVR’s final year they were a big part of the depth scoring, especially JVR who was a net front god and had 36 goals playing like 15 minutes a game with a little over a minute of PP time. The team had a record for points that year so decimating the depth would’ve been a bad idea. And with Gards he had been a big minute D for the team for years on an already thin blue line.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #313 by stoney » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:46 am

Barrie is trash in premium minutes. I see no reason why Sandin isn't getting PP1 time at this point.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #314 by Thomas Malthus » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:55 am

stoney wrote:Barrie is trash in premium minutes. I see no reason why Sandin isn't getting PP1 time at this point.


Unless they want to get him those PP points and ship him off.

:wink:
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #315 by stoney » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:25 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:
stoney wrote:Barrie is trash in premium minutes. I see no reason why Sandin isn't getting PP1 time at this point.


Unless they want to get him those PP points and ship him off.

:wink:


Little late for a showcase. He's been getting the PP1 since Keefe took over and hasn't exactly shown to be on his way to the Norris
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #316 by AGENT ZERO » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:41 pm

It's too bad Eugene is such an asshole, otherwise the Leafs probably would have matched this offer:

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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #317 by LeafOfBread » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:43 pm

Fuck off
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #318 by LeafOfBread » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:29 pm

Scandella for a 2nd and conditional 4th, Dillon for a 2nd+conditional 3rd, surely Barrie at $2.75M can bring in way more?
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #319 by AGENT ZERO » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm

Fuck, I was hoping that the Leafs could find a way to add Dillon.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #320 by Thomas Malthus » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:05 pm

That would have been a huge add to get DeMelo for a 3rd.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #321 by mooseOAK » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:18 pm

I would expect the Leafs to be just as much of an asshole to the Senators.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #322 by Thomas Malthus » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:42 am

I hate this franchise.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #323 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:23 am

I wonder how many of the 15 went five hole.

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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #324 by WTF » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:59 am



Well I guess he's off the trading block for the foreseeable future.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #325 by LeafOfBread » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:15 am

Leafs acquire another midget



Played with Matthews in Zurich apparently
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #326 by Thomas Malthus » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:26 am

Cheap depth move. It didn’t seem like Marchment thinks the game well enough to work with his level of speed. He’s also 24 and running out of runway. I liked that he was a cunt though.

Apparently Malgin has good defensive numbers but hey so did Kerfoot.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #327 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:32 am

WTF wrote:https://twitter.com/kristen_shilton/status/1230158073601413122

Well I guess he's off the trading block for the foreseeable future.


Jesus...
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #328 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:34 am

LeafOfBread wrote:Leafs acquire another midget



Played with Matthews in Zurich apparently


What is the opposite of a sausage party because that is what's going on in the Leafs room right now.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #329 by Thomas Malthus » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:59 am

Taco fiesta?
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #330 by paulster » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:04 pm

Clam bake?
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #331 by Thomas Malthus » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:10 pm

My car's engine was having trouble rolling over when it gets cold and I took it in this morning.

Good news is that unlike the Leafs I don't need a new starter.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #332 by paulster » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:37 pm

Smells like a women's sauna in the Leafs dressing room, lately.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #333 by Curry Rage » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:08 pm

Whatever. I don’t even care any more.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #334 by Curry Rage » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:33 pm

Let’s play Keefe or Babs?

That is the difference between them and us: They just work. When you do that, the skilled players have the puck a lot more and good things are happening and all of that kind of stuff. We have to make a decision here about what we want to be as a team.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #335 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:42 pm

I'm very curious Courage, what do you think the problem is. Are the kids entitled pricks or has management assembled a flawed group or some mixture of the two? And more to the point, do you think that it is salvageable for this season?
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #336 by WTF » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 pm

paulster wrote:Clam bake?


I was going to suggest "clam jam" but that works too.

Was last night Taco Tuesday?
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #337 by WTF » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:45 pm

paulster wrote:Smells like a women's sauna in the Leafs dressing room, lately.


Too many essential oils diffusers.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #338 by Curry Rage » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:11 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:I'm very curious Courage, what do you think the problem is. Are the kids entitled pricks or has management assembled a flawed group or some mixture of the two? And more to the point, do you think that it is salvageable for this season?


Yeah, I think there’s a bit of both and that they’re related issues. Why Freddie is struggling is anyone’s guess, but that’s another factor. I think the way the team plays hasn’t helped him much either.

I don’t know what you mean by salvageable but we’re all in on some *win now* sorts of pieces and I don’t think this team will win squat. I think they can get themselves into the playoffs because teams below them are also struggling in puzzling ways, and just on sheer scoring talent alone they’re bound to win some more games. But, even if Rielly does get himself back and up to speed, I don’t see a good team - say Tampa, Boston, Pittsburgh or even Washington - not picking apart our weaknesses over the course of a long series. There’s too many poor habits to break at pace and on the fly. We just don’t have the horses on D to give us solid top 4 minutes. I mean, when Ron Hainsey looks like a better partner for Rielly than anything you’ve got, you’ve got problems with your D. Plus, no team will go very far without goaltending, especially one like this that gives up chances almost by design. If Freddie can’t find himself we know how this turns out.

While you can’t just take a gimme on a season with a team like this and with all the blood and treasure spent to put it together, if I’m Dubas, even if I’m publicly bullish I’m thinking medium to long term going into the deadline for the most part. I get the Malgin add with Johnsson, etc out and because it only cost a 24 year old guy who just can’t make the jump and actually gained you some age capital, if you get my meaning. But, I wouldn’t be playing fast and loose in the deadline market.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #339 by LeafOfBread » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:38 pm

At this point the prospect of a lottery pick excites me more than barely squeaking into the playoffs
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #340 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:57 pm

Curry Rage wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:I'm very curious Courage, what do you think the problem is. Are the kids entitled pricks or has management assembled a flawed group or some mixture of the two? And more to the point, do you think that it is salvageable for this season?


Yeah, I think there’s a bit of both and that they’re related issues. Why Freddie is struggling is anyone’s guess, but that’s another factor. I think the way the team plays hasn’t helped him much either.

I don’t know what you mean by salvageable but we’re all in on some *win now* sorts of pieces and I don’t think this team will win squat. I think they can get themselves into the playoffs because teams below them are also struggling in puzzling ways, and just on sheer scoring talent alone they’re bound to win some more games. But, even if Rielly does get himself back and up to speed, I don’t see a good team - say Tampa, Boston, Pittsburgh or even Washington - not picking apart our weaknesses over the course of a long series. There’s too many poor habits to break at pace and on the fly. We just don’t have the horses on D to give us solid top 4 minutes. I mean, when Ron Hainsey looks like a better partner for Rielly than anything you’ve got, you’ve got problems with your D. Plus, no team will go very far without goaltending, especially one like this that gives up chances almost by design. If Freddie can’t find himself we know how this turns out.

While you can’t just take a gimme on a season with a team like this and with all the blood and treasure spent to put it together, if I’m Dubas, even if I’m publicly bullish I’m thinking medium to long term going into the deadline for the most part. I get the Malgin add with Johnsson, etc out and because it only cost a 24 year old guy who just can’t make the jump and actually gained you some age capital, if you get my meaning. But, I wouldn’t be playing fast and loose in the deadline market.


I phrased the last part of my question poorly, what I meant to say was can the Leafs salvage the season by winning a round in the playoffs which I think was the main goal coming into the season. However, you essentially answered that in your post. I think I'm also on the side of thinking medium to long term. The deadline is a bad time to try and fix a team, if anything I'd be inclined to sell a few rental types for some picks and try to use those in the summer to acquire a defender. I want to stay positive, but I just don't see a scenario short of Freddie standing on his head, in which the Leafs can beat a TB or Boston in R1.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #341 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:59 pm

LeafOfBread wrote:At this point the prospect of a lottery pick excites me more than barely squeaking into the playoffs


If the Leafs fall that hard you have to consider a significant restructuring and that does not excite me.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #342 by Thomas Malthus » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:20 pm

I think you already have to consider a significant restructuring.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #343 by Curry Rage » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:27 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:I think you already have to consider a significant restructuring.


Yeah, the backend and bottom-6 C depth are still a problem.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #344 by LeafOfBread » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:28 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:At this point the prospect of a lottery pick excites me more than barely squeaking into the playoffs


If the Leafs fall that hard you have to consider a significant restructuring and that does not excite me.

Remember, lottery pick means anywhere from 1-14.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #345 by vf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:49 pm

WTF wrote:
paulster wrote:Clam bake?


I was going to suggest "clam jam" but that works too.

Was last night Taco Tuesday?


Today will be known as Taco Tuesday, but on a Friday!
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #346 by vf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:53 pm

For the basketball fans, this reminds me of the 76ers. On paper they're amazing, but the talent distribution is so fucking awkward and the pieces don't fit well together. Like Philly, they tried jumpstarting the process and it has exploded in their faces just the same. While Mason might not of been good enough skill wise to stick for fuck sakes atleast he'd cunt someone and that's something this team desperately needs. Moving him out is just another indication Dubas doesn't get it. At all.Fuck these entitled cunts, give me a team full of Hymans and they'd kill the current Leafs.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #347 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:55 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:I think you already have to consider a significant restructuring.


It's all semantics, but when I say restructure I mean swap out core pieces (Matthews, Tavares, Rielly, Nylander, Marner). We are not at that stage yet, what we need is changes to the periphery and a legit top pair RHD.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #348 by AGENT ZERO » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:58 pm

LeafOfBread wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:At this point the prospect of a lottery pick excites me more than barely squeaking into the playoffs


If the Leafs fall that hard you have to consider a significant restructuring and that does not excite me.

Remember, lottery pick means anywhere from 1-14.


Cool, another highly skilled player to add to our group of highly skilled players. I'd much rather hope that this team comes together in this next stretch and seriously change their habits. Even if it doesn't result in a cup this year, it may lead to some success in the future.
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #349 by Curry Rage » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:12 pm

Lol. ODog working harder on this take than he did on the ice.

*Buy Oil Stocks!*
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Re: 2019-20 Season Whingeing and Moaning Thread

Post #350 by LeafOfBread » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:20 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
LeafOfBread wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
If the Leafs fall that hard you have to consider a significant restructuring and that does not excite me.

Remember, lottery pick means anywhere from 1-14.


Cool, another highly skilled player to add to our group of highly skilled players. I'd much rather hope that this team comes together in this next stretch and seriously change their habits. Even if it doesn't result in a cup this year, it may lead to some success in the future.


I used to be naive and thought the Leafs could just get it together when I was younger, but I don't see how a team that has had piss poor habits for multiple seasons now will just 'figure it out' overnight, fundamental change takes a lot of time. Hell, just think about yourself as a person, I'm sure you have longstanding habits you want to change; how often were you able to just make it happen overnight? You probably tried multiple times, came short many times, adjusted some things and tried again until you finally got it. Sometimes you have to get worse to get better, it's just how life is. Expecting this team to just change their habits and become more defensively minded and responsible in a matter of weeks (they don't even have that much time really) is just asking for disappointment, especially when they've never really played that way. At least for a team like Tampa that started off poorly, they had a track record of excellence and a specific style of play that they eventually came back to and are dominating the league again now.

The team has been mediocre dogshit since January 2019, they've changed multiple players, they've changed the coach, and it's still the same shit. Some leeway can be given to injuries but many teams go through injuries and are still competitive, Pittsburgh is a prime example.

I think they're more likely to learn from outright missing the playoffs in a year where the money and leadership shifted over to the kids than they are from another first round exit. All they've known so far is making the playoffs and clearly they took that for granted too. The regular season is supposed to be where you take time to learn and execute on the things you practice and are being coached to you, you don't coast until playoffs to do that.

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