Mac (OR ROR) on the Wing. You like? E: NHL33 LIKE! E2: BoJ NO LIKE!

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Mac (OR ROR) on the Wing. You like? E: NHL33 LIKE! E2: BoJ NO LIKE!

Post #1 by chewey » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:37 pm

So this is just about Mac on the wing or center.
Which do you prefer?

For me I like him on the wing. We have a real top line with RoR - Duch - Mac. It somewhat weakens our 3 line depth, but does free up our other lines. Lando - Staz - PaP could almost be a 1st line, but server better as a 2nd line.

I also hope we can get a better 3rd line winger/center this season as Malkin is better for the 4th line in my eyes. McGinn - Talbot - Tanguay isn't bad either, but ideally you'd want someone with more offense than Talbot.

Thoughts, opinions?
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Post #2 by VLoo » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:57 pm

dmitri wrote:So this is just about Mac on the wing or center.
Which do you prefer?

For me I like him on the wing. We have a real top line with RoR - Duch - Mac. It somewhat weakens our 3 line depth, but does free up our other lines. Lando - Staz - PaP could almost be a 1st line, but server better as a 2nd line.

I also hope we can get a better 3rd line winger/center this season as Malkin is better for the 4th line in my eyes. McGinn - Talbot - Tanguay isn't bad either, but ideally you'd want someone with more offense than Talbot.

Thoughts, opinions?


He looks good out there although I'm sure he'd look good wherever we put him, but as Demps mentioned, Stastny is gone at the end of the year, so why not put Mack in his natural spot and let him develop there? I can't imagine it being a permanent thing, but if it is that completely destroys our C depth for the future and I don't really see the point of it if that's the case. Can't see Stastny returning, might as well hand the reins over to the kid you drafted to replace him and is playing better than him anyway.
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Post #3 by NHL33 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:30 pm

O'Reilly is the one who looks misplaced. We have too many centers, Duchene-MacKinnon is lethal to the opposition, and MacKinnon is talented enough to play the wing and not miss a beat. For now we can live with it, but once Stastny is gone we should run Duchene-O'Reilly-MacKinnon down the middle and distribute competent wingers as best as possible.

Long-term he clearly needs to play the center position because he has way too much talent not to. I don't think that switch needs to be immediate.
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Post #4 by ABasin » Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:46 am

NHL33 wrote:O'Reilly is the one who looks misplaced. We have too many centers, Duchene-MacKinnon is lethal to the opposition, and MacKinnon is talented enough to play the wing and not miss a beat. For now we can live with it, but once Stastny is gone we should run Duchene-O'Reilly-MacKinnon down the middle and distribute competent wingers as best as possible.

Long-term he clearly needs to play the center position because he has way too much talent not to. I don't think that switch needs to be immediate.


Yeah, this seems reasonable. If they're going to let Stastny go though, I'd sure like to see them get some quality asset in return. Doubt they will though. I think they'll deem a single playoff game at home more valuable than the asset.
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Post #5 by NHL33 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:16 pm

ABasin wrote:Yeah, this seems reasonable. If they're going to let Stastny go though, I'd sure like to see them get some quality asset in return. Doubt they will though. I think they'll deem a single playoff game at home more valuable than the asset.

If we have a chance at a reasonable cost, I would still re-sign Stastny even with the current glut of centers. He's good in front of the net, down low, faceoff dot, and at back-checking. Don't see it happening, hence why I want him traded, but considering the rising cap it would be better to retain as much talent as possible and figure out where each piece fits later.
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Post #6 by NHL33 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:15 am

Little over one month later, I must say O'Reilly is getting more consistent in his offensive game along the wing. In the long-shot that we do retain Stastny, keeping Duchene-O'Reilly intact and moving MacKinnon to the 'third' line would definitely work.

Duchene and O'Reilly can continue switching from middle to side kind of like Duchene-Fleischmann; however, it's now a significant improvement over then because the current duo are much better on the back-check. Plus Duchene-O'Reilly combined are better passers and have more vision than Duchene-Fleischmann.

I still think we aren't quite leveraging the full assets that O'Reilly offers by pushing him off to the wing, but he does make Duchene more effective, which in turn arguably makes the offense run smoother by not letting the opposition easily shut down one line.

Having Duchene, O'Reilly, Stastny, Landeskog, MacKinnon, Tanguay, McGinn, Talbot, and Parenteau/?? gives a chance to run 3 scoring lines. McGinn can make room for others kind of like Kunitz does for Crosby, while Talbot provides the perfect foil for someone like Parenteau while not being completely inept offensively.

Organizations are too focused on 'team building' with a defined top-6 and bottom-6. If in the remote chance we do keep Stastny, it'd be nice to see us buck the consensus. Has worked out fine for teams like Chicago.
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Post #7 by ABasin » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:32 pm

The only one who is clearly better off at center than wing, is Duchene. O'R or MacKinnon at either position is fine with me.
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Post #8 by WarriorOfGandhi » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:35 pm

the only outright advantage I see for either player on the wing/center is ROR back at center, on account of the fact that he'd produce less offense and thus demand a lower salary after the year's end.
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Post #9 by NHL33 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:15 pm

He'd produce less and so would his current teammates, both on account of having inferior line mates. If you gave him near the same quality of players, he'd be fine offensively.
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Post #10 by Brain of J » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:24 pm

I think MacKinnon is very clearly better at center. He has more room to skate and get going. I don't even think it's close, really.
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Post #11 by chewey » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:42 pm

ABasin wrote:The only one who is clearly better off at center than wing, is Duchene. O'R or MacKinnon at either position is fine with me.


Which is still surprising to me given his skill set. Maybe there is a subconscious thing with him wanting to be at center instead of wing. A lot like Tebow's desire to be a quarterback and nothing else.

WarriorOfGandhi wrote:the only outright advantage I see for either player on the wing/center is ROR back at center, on account of the fact that he'd produce less offense and thus demand a lower salary after the year's end.


I... I don't think that would stop him or his agent. Sure as hell didn't stop him for demanding it last time nor a team like Flames offer sheeting him.

Brain of J wrote:I think MacKinnon is very clearly better at center. He has more room to skate and get going. I don't even think it's close, really.


I do agree with this. I think you do sacrifice RoR's defensive ability having him on wing however you do utilize/develop his offensive skills more while bringing out the best of Duchene. NHL33 explained it best.

So what do with Stastny? Sing and make him 3rd C? Sign, hold and then trade? Convert to RW/LW? Or see him walk away?
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Post #12 by NHL33 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:20 pm

I would be OK with this:

McGinn-Duchene-O'Reilly
Landeskog-Stastny-Parenteau
Tanguay-MacKinnon-Talbot

Duchene-Stastny-MacKinnon down the middle. Gradually upgrade the wings and MacKinnon ultimately is our best player and #1 center.

I'm OK with MacKinnon on the wing for now, didn't mean that's where I envision him long-term.
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Post #13 by WarriorOfGandhi » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:23 pm

Parenteau has scored more points than Vanek in the past 3 seasons
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Post #14 by NHL33 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:41 pm

Yeah, Vanek is clearly better and he's the type of winger we need over Parenteau. To be fair for Parenteau, he's only making $4M a year, which is a pretty good deal. We should get a fairly decent defender in return for PAP.
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Post #15 by Brain of J » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:52 pm

If we don't get a top 4 defenseman (or a young future top 4 guy) for PAP, then something is wrong. A 50-60 point guy locked up for two more years at 4M is great value with the cap continuing to rise. If we have to keep him, it helps with depth up front, but I get the feeling reading his quote from the last few days where he keeps talking about being in the top 6 that he won't be happy on the third line and will want out.
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Post #16 by Alex Jones » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:46 pm

Honestly I would be down to give a lot for Vanek, he is the last piece this team needs offensively. I think we basically have everything on offense to win a cup, save for a net front. Vanek gives us a presence that can screen the goalie down low and chip in pucks, and in my mind would turn the Avs into a truly elite offensive team.
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Post #17 by chewey » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:14 pm

Alex Jones wrote:Honestly I would be down to give a lot for Vanek, he is the last piece this team needs offensively. I think we basically have everything on offense to win a cup, save for a net front. Vanek gives us a presence that can screen the goalie down low and chip in pucks, and in my mind would turn the Avs into a truly elite offensive team.


Honestly, this is true. If we can trade Stastny + PaP + w/e we have about an additional $10M to spend this offseason (we already really have $6M with Stastny's contract off the books). That gives us enough to sign Vanek ($6-7M) + a top 4 dman ($5-$6) while still being well below the cap for future trades/moves.

Vanek - Duch - RoR
Lando - Mack - McGinn/Tanguay
Malone - Talbot - McGinn/XXX
McLeod - XXXX - XXX

That is pretty hard for any defence to contain and a makings of a good bottom 6.
Defence is a big issue and trading PaP + Stastny + w/e should hopefully address that and signing of another top 4 dman.

Trade - EJ
Hedja - Sign
Beniot - Barrie

Mix and match. Would make us better overall.
Stastny will be the biggest 'X' factor this season and the offseason for this team.
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Post #18 by NHL33 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:33 pm

Both Niskanen and MacDonald are major upgrades outside of EJ, Hejda and Barrie. That's the great-awful thing about our defense: it might blow, but half of it is so bad that almost anyone would improve the blue line.
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Post #19 by chewey » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:34 pm

dempsey_k wrote:We shouldn't bank on there being just any top 4 d-man available. We could wind up only getting somebody like Niskanen or MacDonald.


Ideally the trade would hopefully cover that worry. If we could get someone like Ehrhoff from Buffalo, having Niskanen or MacDonald on the 2nd pairing with Hedja would be okay in my mind.

But again, our bottom 4 has Genin, Beniot, Barrie, Wilsion. Adding any top 4 dman would look good at this point.

E: DAMMIT! Beaten to the punch by 33. :(
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Post #20 by Brain of J » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:49 pm

Vancouver and Winnipeg have been scouting the Avs a lot recently. A know Vancouver is looking to re-tool now according to Lebrun. I wonder if Edler can be had. He's had a rough year but he's still a huge upgrade to the blueline.

The other guy I look at is Enstrom.
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Post #21 by NHL33 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:50 pm

I've seen MacDonald enough, he's fine defensively more or less but the main issue is that he gets injured. A lot.

Niskanen isn't great but he's not Guenin-Holden bad either; haven't seen enough of him to compare to Benoit and Sarich, but from what I've heard he'd be better than the latter two as well.
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Post #22 by NHL33 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:52 pm

Brain of J wrote:Vancouver and Winnipeg have been scouting the Avs a lot recently. A know Vancouver is looking to re-tool now according to Lebrun. I wonder if Edler can be had. He's had a rough year but he's still a huge upgrade to the blueline. The other guy I look at is Enstrom.

They have to be fed up waiting for Edler by now, but I don't want to trade O'Reily. Stastny won't get it done. I don't know if they'd want Parenteau as the core piece - Edler has been dog shit this season and somewhat injury prone, but the talent is there.

Don't know what the Jets would want for Enstrom.
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Post #23 by Alex Jones » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:37 am

I would take Buff as a forward.
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Post #24 by NHL33 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:09 am

I'd take him as a defenseman but I wouldn't trade what the Jets would likely demand in return (e.g. a core piece). Enstrom would be a much better fit.
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Post #25 by ABasin » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:38 am

NHL33 wrote:Both Niskanen and MacDonald are major upgrades outside of EJ, Hejda and Barrie. That's the great-awful thing about our defense: it might blow, but half of it is so bad that almost anyone would improve the blue line.


No kidding. Wilson is doing his best David Jones swan dive imitation. Man, is he awful. He was somewhat promising a couple of years ago. I realize he's been injured a lot, but he simply flat-out sucks now.

Seriously, Guenin is probably the Avs 4th best defenseman right now. 3rd best in his own zone. That's not a recipe for success in April and May.
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Post #26 by ABasin » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:39 am

dempsey_k wrote:FWIW, Byfuglien is being actively shopped.


No thanks. Not a fan. That team has a couple of other guys I'd like though.
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Post #27 by ABasin » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:40 am

Brain of J wrote:Vancouver and Winnipeg have been scouting the Avs a lot recently. A know Vancouver is looking to re-tool now according to Lebrun. I wonder if Edler can be had. He's had a rough year but he's still a huge upgrade to the blueline.

The other guy I look at is Enstrom.


Edler is probably not available. He's be very expensive also (assets going the other way).

Anyone interested in Bieksa?
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Post #28 by ABasin » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:47 am

NHL33 wrote:Yeah, Vanek is clearly better and he's the type of winger we need over Parenteau. To be fair for Parenteau, he's only making $4M a year, which is a pretty good deal. We should get a fairly decent defender in return for PAP.


I actually like what Parenteau brings, but I think that he and Tanguay are fairly redundant.

I've never been a huge Vanek fan. Probably most due to his contract, I guess.
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Post #29 by NHL33 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:57 pm

ABasin wrote:Edler is probably not available. He's be very expensive also (assets going the other way).

Anyone interested in Bieksa?

Edler has been horrible this season and he hasn't been incredibly consistent the past several seasons due to injuries and what not. He might be available if they are 'retooling'. The price will likely be too much though.

ABasin wrote:I actually like what Parenteau brings, but I think that he and Tanguay are fairly redundant.
I've never been a huge Vanek fan. Probably most due to his contract, I guess.

Parenteau is a very good player - I certainly wouldn't trade him simply to be rid of him. However, he's redundant as you say. We have enough playmakers, Vanek isn't exactly a sniper but he brings a different style along the wing than PAP. Vanek would be a nice addition but not an absurd contract...I'd take him on for $6M or below and a long term. He'll get more on the market.
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Post #30 by chewey » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:37 pm

ABasin wrote:No thanks. Not a fan. That team has a couple of other guys I'd like though.


Both Bogosian and Trouba are off limits. I would love to see if the Avs could acquire Bogosian with the emergence of Trouba similar to St. Louis with EJ and Petriangelo. I could see Bogosian having a similar development path as EJ.

The most likely attainable piece is Enstrom, and even then it would cost a lot. If either one where to revolve around the main piece being PaP I would think the Avs would be interested.

ABasin wrote:Edler is probably not available.


Living in Vancouver I can assure you for the right piece he is.

He's be very expensive also (assets going the other way).


That right piece is also RoR. The Nucks wouldn't be trading him for PaP.

Anyone interested in Bieksa?


I am hesitant. He is 32, has stretches where he doesn't play like a top 4 and feel his playing style will have an exponential decline in the coming years. If he was 27 or 28, I would be down.

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