Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3501 by Germz » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:10 am

Layton was the genuine article.
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Re: Nation to nation dialogue

Post #3502 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:46 pm

vf wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:
vf wrote:
If we could wipe out the blatant corruption most reserves would be much further ahead.


True, but most reserves are torn apart along political lines just as much as any nation would be. You've got the left, the right, the idealistic centre.

While you are right about outright corruption in many a community, but it would be unwise for a Liberal government to start doling out lessons about ethics and impartiality, given the LPC's tumultuous history. While corruption does indeed need to be tackled, it is also very important to observe democracy, in this case on a very local level. It may not be a perfect system but it is a political system very much parallel to our own, what with money & influence et al.


Well, I doubt the indigenous leadership would accept or acknowledge corruption on a local level coming from any federal government. I think there's less oversight as well locally, but, could be wrong.
I think butter example is a red herring as well. If you live 800 km from the nearest city you can't expect to pay the same prices. Do you feel we should subsidize shipping into remote communities?

They should also improve the programs offered by places like JEDI. The first time home buyer program with them for natives looking to live off res is pretty hilarious.


At a certain point I think the line about the corruption become an excuse for inaction.

When I hear things like lack of clean drinking water, or epidemic of youth suicide, or the murders... I don't think my top priority is really a solid audit from KPMG. :dunno:
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3503 by AD » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:55 pm

MAW, you're minimizing the effect of corruption on overall absence of the very infrastructures you're denouncing.

On a direct side, less corruption means more police to prevent murders, better pipes to get water, etc...
But more importantly, less corruption strengthens the belief, of the population, in their own civil society - strengthening engagement, etc.

You, MAW, of all people*... should see this.




*By this, I mean you're a pinko leftist softie.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3504 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:25 pm

AD wrote:MAW, you're minimizing the effect of corruption on overall absence of the very infrastructures you're denouncing.

On a direct side, less corruption means more police to prevent murders, better pipes to get water, etc...
But more importantly, less corruption strengthens the belief, of the population, in their own civil society - strengthening engagement, etc.

You, MAW, of all people*... should see this.




*By this, I mean you're a pinko leftist softie.


Their belief in civil society will be shot due to levels of government well beyond the tribal level. Or has been shot... Local corruption won't help, but after 150 years plus of this I'd think we have done well enough shattering their belief of effective government.

If there was a suicide epidemic in Montreal, I don't think the rampant local corruption would be excuse enough to do nothing. If you had flint level drinking water, I wouldn't be demanding your city go through another crime purge or breakup whatever group is winning all the local government contracts. Yet, we have this staunch condition of meeting accounting regulations before we are willing to help dying native kids. It's kinda fucked up.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3505 by vf » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:57 pm

Dirty drinking water isn't driving the suicide rates though. A lack of a future has more to do with it, but, how do you fix it? Rural Canada is dying.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3506 by Dog » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:47 pm

I think the problem is more fundamental. I don't think you can be segregated from mainstream society and do very well.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3507 by vf » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:58 pm

Rural Canada is segregated from mainstream society. The most isolated reserves are just extreme cases of it. Throwing money at it won't fix the problem, as you say dog, it's more fundamental.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3508 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:42 pm

Not saying you're wrong, but again it amounts to a great reason to do nothing.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3509 by vf » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:13 pm

Well something needs to be done, but, I honestly have no idea short of relocation which ain't happening.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3510 by clawfirst » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:40 pm

Do they need blankets?
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3511 by akiberg » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:22 pm

vf wrote:Rural Canada is segregated from mainstream society. The most isolated reserves are just extreme cases of it. Throwing money at it won't fix the problem, as you say dog, it's more fundamental.


I don't think you should be looking at it as rural canada taken to an extreme. (I wildly disagree with the analogy) I'd suggest you are looking at exactly the reason socialism doesn't/hasn't/never will work.

unfortunately, the only solution is relocation/integration.
and, since we'll never do that... our great great great grandkids will still be discussing this problem.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3512 by AD » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:40 am

mayoradamwest wrote:
AD wrote:MAW, you're minimizing the effect of corruption on overall absence of the very infrastructures you're denouncing.

On a direct side, less corruption means more police to prevent murders, better pipes to get water, etc...
But more importantly, less corruption strengthens the belief, of the population, in their own civil society - strengthening engagement, etc.

You, MAW, of all people*... should see this.




*By this, I mean you're a pinko leftist softie.


Their belief in civil society will be shot due to levels of government well beyond the tribal level. Or has been shot... Local corruption won't help, but after 150 years plus of this I'd think we have done well enough shattering their belief of effective government.

If there was a suicide epidemic in Montreal, I don't think the rampant local corruption would be excuse enough to do nothing. If you had flint level drinking water, I wouldn't be demanding your city go through another crime purge or breakup whatever group is winning all the local government contracts. Yet, we have this staunch condition of meeting accounting regulations before we are willing to help dying native kids. It's kinda fucked up.


I didn't say it should be a condition precedent for immediate assistance. But combatting corruption is one if the pillars of sustainable change/amelioration.

If nothing else, it is easier to justify the monetary assistance when it's not going to the Chief's son's new Ford F-150 while while the security service on the reserve is still all volunteers.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3513 by vf » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:38 am

akiberg wrote:
vf wrote:Rural Canada is segregated from mainstream society. The most isolated reserves are just extreme cases of it. Throwing money at it won't fix the problem, as you say dog, it's more fundamental.


I don't think you should be looking at it as rural canada taken to an extreme. (I wildly disagree with the analogy) I'd suggest you are looking at exactly the reason socialism doesn't/hasn't/never will work.

unfortunately, the only solution is relocation/integration.
and, since we'll never do that... our great great great grandkids will still be discussing this problem.


I don't have any how or why you're dragging socialism into this, but, please. Go on.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3514 by mayoradamwest » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:43 pm

AD wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
AD wrote:MAW, you're minimizing the effect of corruption on overall absence of the very infrastructures you're denouncing.

On a direct side, less corruption means more police to prevent murders, better pipes to get water, etc...
But more importantly, less corruption strengthens the belief, of the population, in their own civil society - strengthening engagement, etc.

You, MAW, of all people*... should see this.




*By this, I mean you're a pinko leftist softie.


Their belief in civil society will be shot due to levels of government well beyond the tribal level. Or has been shot... Local corruption won't help, but after 150 years plus of this I'd think we have done well enough shattering their belief of effective government.

If there was a suicide epidemic in Montreal, I don't think the rampant local corruption would be excuse enough to do nothing. If you had flint level drinking water, I wouldn't be demanding your city go through another crime purge or breakup whatever group is winning all the local government contracts. Yet, we have this staunch condition of meeting accounting regulations before we are willing to help dying native kids. It's kinda fucked up.


I didn't say it should be a condition precedent for immediate assistance. But combatting corruption is one if the pillars of sustainable change/amelioration.

If nothing else, it is easier to justify the monetary assistance when it's not going to the Chief's son's new Ford F-150 while while the security service on the reserve is still all volunteers.


Sorry, which theory are you getting at with the pillars? Want to clarify if I'm on the same page. Typically I've seen anti corruption as an element or contributing factor within a "pillar" but not usually a pillar itself. I'm not a development person though...

Sure the political structure is integral to the economic/social structure, but isn't the corruption issue typically raised more from the outside? While it matters in so far as it makes spending less efficient, ultimately it's not really THE issue. I just wonder if the talking point has become a motive to throw up roadblocks.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3515 by AD » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:02 pm

This is a very concentrated summary from an anti-corruption international NGO.

Corruption impacts societies in a multitude of ways. In the worst cases, it costs lives. Short of this, it costs people their freedom, health or money. The cost of corruption can be divided into four main categories: political, economic, social and environmental.

On the political front, corruption is a major obstacle to democracy and the rule of law. In a democratic system, offices and institutions lose their legitimacy when they’re misused for private advantage. This is harmful in established democracies, but even more so in newly emerging ones. It is extremely challenging to develop accountable political leadership in a corrupt climate.

Economically, corruption depletes national wealth. Corrupt politicians invest scarce public resources in projects that will line their pockets rather than benefit communities, and prioritise high-profile projects such as dams, power plants, pipelines and refineries over less spectacular but more urgent infrastructure projects such as schools, hospitals and roads. Corruption also hinders the development of fair market structures and distorts competition, which in turn deters investment.

Corruption corrodes the social fabric of society. It undermines people's trust in the political system, in its institutions and its leadership. A distrustful or apathetic public can then become yet another hurdle to challenging corruption.

Environmental degradation is another consequence of corrupt systems. The lack of, or non-enforcement of, environmental regulations and legislation means that precious natural resources are carelessly exploited, and entire ecological systems are ravaged. From mining, to logging, to carbon offsets, companies across the globe continue to pay bribes in return for unrestricted destruction.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3516 by mayoradamwest » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:11 pm

You said it was a pillar, which sounded like it was from a theory, and I'm still not seeing an underlying theory named. :colbert:

Obviously corruption is bad, I just don't think it provides the level of excuse we argue it does.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3517 by AD » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:12 pm

Why are you bringing me back to this? I'm not saying it should be used as an excuse to withhold help.

I'm saying long term, it is fucking critical to curb it. If you don't, you just perpetuate the issues that lead to the help being needed in the first place.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3518 by mayoradamwest » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:02 pm

I thought you'd have a more interesting read.

:shame:
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3519 by AD » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:07 pm

I can send you dozens but what's the point.

:colbert:
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3520 by MP » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:02 pm

Boring Choice #2 wrote:No, they didn't have a chance to be PM either.

Jack might have stood a chance if it weren't for his aids... I know they say 'cancer' but everyone knows what really took him...
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3521 by Boring Choice #2 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:56 pm

I think it would need to be more than another Orange wave. The Dippers need a young, attractive, charismatic leader who says all the right things at a time when the general population is disenfranchised with both the Liberals and the Conservatives to have a real (not just a lucky) shot to win* or they need to be lucky like Bob Rae was in Ontario where they run into a last minute dumping of votes in a "what can it hurt?" shift in a close election.




*i.e. Justin
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3522 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:07 pm

akiberg wrote:
I HAVE NO SOLUTIONS TO OFFER BUT BOY HOWDY DO I HATE SOCIALISM!

Image


:nice:
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3523 by akiberg » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:24 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:
akiberg wrote:
I HAVE NO SOLUTIONS TO OFFER BUT BOY HOWDY DO I HATE SOCIALISM!

Image


:nice:

..... I did offer a solution.
what's yours?
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3524 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:30 pm

akiberg wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:
akiberg wrote:
I HAVE NO SOLUTIONS TO OFFER BUT BOY HOWDY DO I HATE SOCIALISM!

Image


:nice:

..... I did offer a solution.
what's yours?


Tearing up the British North America Act. :trump:
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3525 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:35 pm

But in all seriousness, the only feasible solution is investment. Giving First Nation schools the same funding we give the rest of the schools in this country would be a decent start.

Giving communities control over their own natural resources and not selling them off to some bloodsucking multinational would also be a step in the right direction.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3526 by akiberg » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:23 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:But in all seriousness, the only feasible solution is investment. Giving First Nation schools the same funding we give the rest of the schools in this country would be a decent start.

Giving communities control over their own natural resources and not selling them off to some bloodsucking multinational would also be a step in the right direction.

I thought you might actually have a new idea after the witty cartoon retort. how did Einstein define insanity?
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3527 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:13 pm

Please Aki, go on then, tell us all bout how inexpensive your dehumanizing policy of forced relocation will be.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3528 by akiberg » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:15 am

The Bytown Boozer wrote:Please Aki, go on then, tell us all bout how inexpensive your dehumanizing policy of forced relocation will be.

not sure why you feel the need to put words or gifs into my mouth, boozer. I never said forced relocation would be inexpensive nor did I imply it was a 'practical' solution.
i said it would solve the problem.

what's your end goal for increased spending on education?
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3529 by The Bytown Boozer » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:19 am

I suppose it would be basic human decency to have schools in Canada that are properly funded, regardless of where they are located. It would also be nice if they didn't often resemble a loose array of shipping containers.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3530 by The Bytown Boozer » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:31 am

Aboriginals are the fastest growing segment of our population. They are disproportionately overrepresented in our correctional facilities. The poverty in some communities is completely unacceptable in a rich country such as this. How is funding these schools adequately a bad idea? Last I checked the average funding for First Nations schools is well below the Canadian average.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3531 by vf » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:16 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:I suppose it would be basic human decency to have schools in Canada that are properly funded, regardless of where they are located. It would also be nice if they didn't often resemble a loose array of shipping containers.


Heh, we have an elementary school in town that's less then 5 years old and has a series of shipping containers attached to it already. The Native elementary/junior high a couple km away is a much older/nicer school. Clearly only a single example though. I live beside probably the best run/richest reserve in the country.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3532 by akiberg » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:38 am

The Bytown Boozer wrote:Last I checked the average funding for First Nations schools is well below the Canadian average.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article ... ing-canada
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3533 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:52 am

akiberg wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:Last I checked the average funding for First Nations schools is well below the Canadian average.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article ... ing-canada

Fuck the Fraser Institute.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/federal-spending-falls-short-for-students-on-reserves-budget-watchdog-says/article33213507/
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3534 by akiberg » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:12 am

ok
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3535 by Boring Choice #2 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:34 am

The Fraser Institute has a history of ignoring facts and data which do not support its agenda.

I went to a symposium that they held once, for which they asked the people there to form working groups and discuss topics related to the broader topic at hand. The group of people who I was with were split into different groups and all had similar experiences in that the group came to a consensus on the specific topic that they were assigned and make a small summary which would be incorporated into a larger report. The Fraser Institute employee heading each group ignored the group's conclusions in the summary despite strenuous disagreements from the majority of group members and when the groups were asked to discuss their conclusions, the group leaders provided only the summary supporting their agenda. When several members of the symposium tried to bring up their objections, the symposium leaders shut down discussions and thanked everyone for their time. The final report of course only included the viewpoints of the leaders and ignored any dissenting opinions.

I will never trust anything put out by that organization even if I agree with the conclusions.

I agree with Boozer. Fuck the Fraser Institute.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3536 by AD » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:48 am

The Bytown Boozer wrote:Fuck the Fraser Institute.


That's a whole lot of white dick. I didn't know you had it in you. Kudos.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3537 by mcphee » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:50 am

Boring Choice #2 wrote:The Fraser Institute has a history of ignoring facts and data which do not support its agenda.

I went to a symposium that they held once, for which they asked the people there to form working groups and discuss topics related to the broader topic at hand. The group of people who I was with were split into different groups and all had similar experiences in that the group came to a consensus on the specific topic that they were assigned and make a small summary which would be incorporated into a larger report. The Fraser Institute employee heading each group ignored the group's conclusions in the summary despite strenuous disagreements from the majority of group members and when the groups were asked to discuss their conclusions, the group leaders provided only the summary supporting their agenda. When several members of the symposium tried to bring up their objections, the symposium leaders shut down discussions and thanked everyone for their time. The final report of course only included the viewpoints of the leaders and ignored any dissenting opinions.

I will never trust anything put out by that organization even if I agree with the conclusions.

I agree with Boozer. Fuck the Fraser Institute.

I've never knowingly went to a symposium. I think it's the symposium organizer's loss, I'd be very useful.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3538 by chiclet » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:03 pm

akiberg wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:Last I checked the average funding for First Nations schools is well below the Canadian average.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article ... ing-canada


Anyone who quotes the Fraser Institute rankings in a discussion about First Nations schools is clearly nowhere near qualified to contribute any longer to this conversation - or to any other conversation for that matter.

What a fuckwit.


edit: I see I'm a little late to this party.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3539 by Craig » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:28 pm

Aki is special. He also doesn't approve of RRSPs or Habeas Corpus.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3540 by clawfirst » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:41 pm

:trump2:
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3541 by akiberg » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:07 pm

Craig wrote:Aki is special. He also doesn't approve of RRSPs or Habeus Corpus.

I now think RRSP's are the very best you could ever do.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3542 by akiberg » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:07 pm

chiclet wrote:
akiberg wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:Last I checked the average funding for First Nations schools is well below the Canadian average.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article ... ing-canada


Anyone who quotes the Fraser Institute rankings in a discussion about First Nations schools is clearly nowhere near qualified to contribute any longer to this conversation - or to any other conversation for that matter.

What a fuckwit.


edit: I see I'm a little late to this party.

meow.
“No country would find 173 billion barrels of oil in the ground and just leave them there.”
Justin Trudeau
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chiclet
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3543 by chiclet » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:08 pm

Craig wrote:He also doesn't approve of RRSPs or Habeus Corpus.


susfs. Good lord. Dare I ask? No, I dare not.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3544 by Craig » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:29 pm

I asked. It had something to do with buying your uncle's business in your 50s.

The other thing is about terrorists. He doesn't like giving them rights.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3545 by Dog » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:50 am

You motherfuckers touch RRSPs and I'm going all medival on your asses.

:crossarms:
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3546 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:29 am

Recent news release about Justin Trudeau's Spotify list truly grinds my gears.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3547 by The Bytown Boozer » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:44 am

Rarely has the essence of public figure been captured in such an accurate light.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/07/justin-trudeau-suffers-third-degree-burns-failed-attempt-jump-campfire/
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3548 by edgar_dong » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:59 am

OPINION: Trudeau's challenge will be turning foreign fanfare into actual influence
...
Mired in scandal, Donald Trump has ceded the position of leader of the free world. All available signs suggest Justin Trudeau is gunning for the position


ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Lincoln Anthony Blades is a freelance journalist, international political pundit and author of Teen Vogue's #DoBetter column.


Image
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3549 by Zardoz » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:00 am

Justin Trudeau: Leader of the Free World
[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
[SIZE="1"]Bring us your idiots, your hussies, your blue and your dreamy. Your steady, your huddled, your fisted and creamy. Your villains, your filthy, your cunts and your meese. Your carpenters and fishers and pastors and beasts. Your rednecks, your Safas, your trolls and your Brits. And like all good sailors, we like us some tits.[/size]
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Re: Canadian Politics and Sturminator's Complaints Thread

Post #3550 by AD » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:30 am

These truly are the worst of times.

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