Murrica: fuck yeah

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Dr_Chimera
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8551 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:30 pm

jester wrote:What Bernie just put forward will never pass, Chim. It's literally a rainbow pooping unicorn. But I suspect he knows that, and he put that out there as an opening bid to allow for the compromise to a public option scheme that will take over the marketplace like the borg.


I think it is amazing that you see his bid as something to mock, rather than a major and necessary step toward better healthcare. As if the outcome will not be affected by anything Bernie does.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8552 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:37 pm

jester wrote:Go read the post again, Chim. At no point do I try to grapple with what Voter X thought Obama was talking about. While you're at it, go read the Iowa caucus speech. Obama clearly and consistently presented himself as a post-partisan figure. It was an argument that began with his DNC "two Americas" speech in 2004.


What I am saying is that I don't believe Obama succeeded with voters because he was a post-partisan figure, but because he was perceived by them as a progressive one.

I do not doubt that Obama made allusions to working with conservatives in his speeches - all American politicians do this. But you choose to elevate this as something that endeared him to the public. I think it's quite the opposite - this is what endeared him to the corporate donors.

I think, in many ways, this was Obama's greatest gift and his pathway to the White House - the ability to fashion himself as (edit) someone who could transcend ideological boundaries and as a progressive at the same time. I think Hillary took many of the same cues, and did what she felt she had to do in her messaging to her donors. But her messaging to the public did not work.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8553 by jester » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:41 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
jester wrote:What Bernie just put forward will never pass, Chim. It's literally a rainbow pooping unicorn. But I suspect he knows that, and he put that out there as an opening bid to allow for the compromise to a public option scheme that will take over the marketplace like the borg.


I think it is amazing that you see his bid as something to mock, rather than a major and necessary step toward better healthcare. As if the outcome will not be affected by anything Bernie does.


I'm not mocking it, but we aren't passing the most generous public healthcare system in the world in the near future. Moreover, the post literally states that it's a positive step by describing it as an opening bid ... and Bernie is obviously a key part of that process.

Step back a bit, man.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8554 by jester » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:47 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
jester wrote:Go read the post again, Chim. At no point do I try to grapple with what Voter X thought Obama was talking about. While you're at it, go read the Iowa caucus speech. Obama clearly and consistently presented himself as a post-partisan figure. It was an argument that began with his DNC "two Americas" speech in 2004.


What I am saying is that I don't believe Obama succeeded with voters because he was a post-partisan figure, but because he was perceived by them as a progressive one.

I do not doubt that Obama made allusions to working with conservatives in his speeches - all American politicians do this. But you choose to elevate this as something that endeared him to the public. I think it's quite the opposite - this is what endeared him to the corporate donors.

I think, in many ways, this was Obama's greatest gift and his pathway to the White House - the ability to fashion himself as pragmatic and as a progressive at the same time. I think Hillary took many of the same cues, and did what she felt she had to do in her messaging to her donors. But her messaging to the public did not work.


Hey, Chim, I'm just relaying what candidate Obama said. I'm not trying to analyze how groups A, B, and C chose to interpret that message. "Hope and Change" was not progressive politics in his rhetoric, it was post-partisan unity. That message was and remains incredibly idealistic, which he admitted in an interview near the end of his term.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8555 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:48 pm

jester wrote:I'm not mocking it, but we aren't passing the most generous public healthcare system in the world in the near future.


Shouldn't this be up to the republicans to state? I thought we were compromising with them.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8556 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:59 pm

jester wrote:Hey, Chim, I'm just relaying what candidate Obama said. I'm not trying to analyze how groups A, B, and C chose to interpret that message. "Hope and Change" was not progressive politics in his rhetoric, it was post-partisan unity. That message was and remains incredibly idealistic, which he admitted in an interview near the end of his term.


Interpretation is extremely important, and we have some idea of what that interpretation was because we lived through that period. We know what people were saying.

I don't think Obama was anything like Sanders. If Sanders is Pete Seeger, Obama was the Stevie Wonder. But the key to Obama's messaging were the metaphors he used to envision a way forward, which made people feel that they could expect their lives to change for the better. This kind of messaging was absent from the Clinton campaign, which chose to highlight the ways in which things were not possible.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8557 by Dog » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:54 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8558 by senate » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:08 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8559 by Retarder S » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:38 pm

Mexico now has enough debris to build the damn wall
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8560 by PredsFan77 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:51 pm

Hey so what happened at the UN with big daddy T?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8561 by senate » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:12 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:Hey so what happened at the UN with big daddy T?


Ask John Kelly:

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8562 by senate » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:50 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8563 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:37 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8564 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:52 pm

Two Dem presidential hopefuls voted for this too.

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8565 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:13 pm

Clearly it's high time our Dominion annex Oregon & Vermont.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8566 by vonbonds » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:11 pm

They’re yours, enjoy
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8567 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:01 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8568 by mooseOAK » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:31 pm

A lot of the same people are proposing a $150 billion per year tax reduction. With a $100 billion defense spending increase that is a quarter of a trillion dollars to make up.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8569 by PredsFan77 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:34 am

We retain rights to perpetual maple syrup and weed royalty
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8570 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:14 pm

Fun op-ed "3 types of single-payer 'concern trolls'": http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html

1) ‘We need more details!’
Less than 24 hours after the bill’s introduction, New York Magazine’s Jonathan Chait lamented that the bill gets America “zero percent” closer to single payer. While saying he agrees with single payer in theory, he insisted that the 155 million Americans who already have healthcare represent an insuperable barrier, and that the issue of how to move them all to a government-run system “is not a detail to be worked out. It is the entire problem.” As he noted, Lyndon Johnson failed and Hillary Clinton failed and Barack Obama failed to undo the private system. So why bother? It’s too hard; everyone go home.

Nuance trolling is argument by way of tautology, an attempt to pass off power-serving defeatism as savvy pragmatism. Nuance trolls simply cannot envision a bold legislative movement to alter the system.

Even if Sanders did lay out how a single-payer transition would work in a technical sense, nuance trolls would find other nits to pick. Where would the money come from? How would you manage all the corporations disturbed? There’s always some essential detail that needs solving before Senate Democrats earn the right to support a bold policy.

And if the demand for nuance seems reasonable enough, consider that pundits rarely require it when it comes to military interventions — Chait and others set this issue aside when it came to invading Iraq in 2003, for instance. The idea at the time was: This is an urgent threat, we will rush to solve it and sort out the details later. With an estimated 45,000 people dying a year because of a lack of healthcare and almost half of the money raised on GoFundMe used to pay medical bills, we must ask: How is this crisis any less urgent?

2) ‘How do you pay for it?’

Of all the water-muddying tactics, this one is the easiest to set aside. As I’ve noted in these pages before, deficit scare-mongering is used, almost exclusively, as a bludgeon to smear progressive policy proposals. When it comes to launching wars or bailing out banks, these fears vanish.

Articles in the Washington Post, Vox and Think Progress all asked how Sanders’ single-payer bill would be “paid for,” yet not a single one of those outlets asked the same question the day after the Senate signed a $700-billion military spending bill, an increase of roughly 13% from 2017. (That $80 billion increase alone could cover 2017-2018 tuition for every student at a 4-year state university in the country.) Money for war is magically always there; money for healthcare must be counted bean by bean.

3) ‘What about the GOP?’

Many pundits seem to believe that leftist politicians must preemptively agree internally to some assumed compromise that is “practical” even before attempting to change the conversation, much less the law. Thus feasibility trolls argue that GOP opposition to government-run health insurance renders futile any such proposal.

That’s ahistorical. Maximalist demands aren’t all or nothing, they’re about establishing broad moral goals that people can rally around.

Indeed, the Tea Party movement provided a clear counterexample to conventional wisdom. It routinely held “unrealistic” positions such as shutting down the entire U.S. government and establishing a 14.5% flat tax, but nonetheless went on to help the GOP net 900 seats nationwide as well as the White House and both houses of Congress.

To have seen this play out and still conclude that maximalism can’t work is perplexing. Progressives lose nothing by setting bold targets right out of the gate. Why not make every Republican lawmaker go back to his or her constituents in 2018 and explain opposition to free healthcare? Force the issue, shift the debate, just as the far right has been doing for years.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8571 by PredsFan77 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:13 pm

Man I thought ole Johnny Mac was going to flip since his ladyboy Lindsay G was sponsoring the bill
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8572 by Dr_Chimera » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:48 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8573 by senate » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:50 pm

This stuff would never have happened in the USFL.

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8574 by The Bytown Boozer » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:18 pm

Not the same game anymore, anyway.


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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8575 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:04 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:https://twitter.com/MicahZenko/status/911360287957307392


It sounds bad, but it's really hard to get an enemy to stand on a specific platform these days.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8576 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:00 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8577 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:20 pm

This is pretty bang on.

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8578 by jester » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:20 pm

I mean, you can destabilize the political order of "the West" without causing an economic collapse. That also ignores the economic possibilities that would open up due to instability that are currently closed off.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8579 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:50 pm

I just don't buy that. I think to say that is to flatter the Russian elites more than anything. And gosh, most of the destabilization has been of US's own doing: their own paranoia about what they think Russia is and can do.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8580 by jester » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:59 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:I just don't buy that. I think to say that is to flatter the Russian elites more than anything. And gosh, most of the destabilization has been of US's own doing: their own paranoia about what they think Russia is and can do.


I don't think RT has much influence on voters, but I think it's pretty naive to dismiss the influence of social media on modern political discourse. Particularly when there is plenty of polling showing how much utter BS people believe that can be directly linked to the BS memes floating around on facebook, twitter, etc.

In any case, the idea that Putin and co. would not destabilize the West due to financial, etc. ties is pretty flimsy. For starters, the same logic carried great weight prior to WWI. Also, as said, it discounts the opportunities that would be generated by said instability. Russia is not nearly as powerful as many like to suggest, but neither is it some benign presence from a western perspective.

And, really Chim, Russian efforts to influence western elections is pretty well established at this point. It's fine to complain about US intervention in political processes elsewhere, but that does not make Russia's actions any less real.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8581 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:45 am

jester wrote:In any case, the idea that Putin and co. would not destabilize the West due to financial, etc. ties is pretty flimsy. For starters, the same logic carried great weight prior to WWI. Also, as said, it discounts the opportunities that would be generated by said instability.


What opportunities are you referring to? I don't think the Russian elite truly benefits by the economic decline of the US.

I would agree with the milder sentiment that they are happy to nudge and prod the Americans, make them more paranoid. I also think they were happy that Hillary lost. But they do not want a crumbing US, meaning a destabilization in any tangible sense, and it is a mistake to assume that they do. This is the thesis of people like The Committee to Investigate Russia, but it is more self-serving than anything.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8582 by PredsFan77 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:11 pm

can putin fix the nfl
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8583 by Dog » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:16 pm

KFL > NFL
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8584 by MP » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:27 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:can putin fix the nfl

Make them play rugby? :dunno:
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8585 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:39 pm

The Russians have given us internet piracy. Thank them for their service.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8586 by TittiesNBeer » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:38 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8587 by PredsFan77 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:34 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8588 by TittiesNBeer » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:51 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8589 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:40 pm

:rudy:

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8590 by TGR » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:21 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8591 by Slick Nick » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:45 pm

jester wrote:I don't think RT has much influence on voters, but I think it's pretty naive to dismiss the influence of social media on modern political discourse. Particularly when there is plenty of polling showing how much utter BS people believe that can be directly linked to the BS memes floating around on facebook, twitter, etc.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... 9afd7b2460

The company said it has identified at least $100,000 in ads purchased through 470 phony Facebook pages and accounts.


Who would have thought that $100,000 worth of FB ads buys you an american presidency now. Huh. I wonder how much Hillary spent on those?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8592 by Retarder S » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:38 am

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Single-handedly won Trump the election
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8593 by mayoradamwest » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:24 am

Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:I don't think RT has much influence on voters, but I think it's pretty naive to dismiss the influence of social media on modern political discourse. Particularly when there is plenty of polling showing how much utter BS people believe that can be directly linked to the BS memes floating around on facebook, twitter, etc.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... 9afd7b2460

The company said it has identified at least $100,000 in ads purchased through 470 phony Facebook pages and accounts.


Who would have thought that $100,000 worth of FB ads buys you an american presidency now. Huh. I wonder how much Hillary spent on those?


If those were targettted in line with internal voter information, might have been a fantastic investment.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8594 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:01 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8595 by senate » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:51 pm

To be fair, that $4 billion number is probably grossly inaccurate because it based on Trump's assessment of his net worth.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8596 by Puck » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:54 pm

There is a lot of bellyaching about RT and Russia's new news systems. Personally I don't mind so much. It took awhile for folks to get used to Al Jazeera too. However I have disliked how conservative news websites took RT articles and run with them though. But I've noticed (to a lesser degree) the same lazy attitude with some usual left wing writers (notably on Ukraine). You could tell with how many right-wing websites followed through on the RT stories about the Malaysia Airlines downing in Ukraine; you could tell who was following the Russian conspiracy theories. On the flipside, you could tell who was following RT on the left with the quotes about NGOs interfering in Ukraine with that oft used 5 billion dollar quote. You could immediately tell what lazy writers were taking cues from RT.

The Ukraine crisis was my first exposure to fake news and Syria was the next. I readily noticed and accepted the fact that I was not used to disinformation on this scale. I also admit not being prepared for it and having difficulty dealing with it. I usually don't accept 'my side's' interpretation of events but I also don't accept the other side. My usual left wing sites were quoting RT cr*p too so I was left somewhat off balance. In the end I did not know what to believe.

The US is slowly reacting to Russian news and its obviously successful penetration into western media. In the past the US had a huge influence in news media. That has faltered and they don't like it. The rest of the world will also react in their own way.

http://mondediplo.com/2017/04/08rt

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opin ... n-war.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/maga ... f-war.html
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8597 by The Bytown Boozer » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:18 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8598 by Slick Nick » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:25 pm

https://blog.twitter.com/official/en_us ... ation.html

Based on our findings thus far, RT spent $274,100 in U.S. ads in 2016. In that year, the @RT_com, @RT_America, and @ActualidadRT accounts promoted 1,823 Tweets that definitely or potentially targeted the U.S. market. These campaigns were directed at followers of mainstream media and primarily promoted RT Tweets regarding news stories.


:mumucide:
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8599 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:46 pm

Puck wrote:But I've noticed (to a lesser degree) the same lazy attitude with some usual left wing writers (notably on Ukraine). You could tell with how many right-wing websites followed through on the RT stories about the Malaysia Airlines downing in Ukraine; you could tell who was following the Russian conspiracy theories. On the flipside, you could tell who was following RT on the left with the quotes about NGOs interfering in Ukraine with that oft used 5 billion dollar quote. You could immediately tell what lazy writers were taking cues from RT.


You could tell.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #8600 by Puck » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:19 am

Mostly you could tell I love sayin' you could tell too much. Haven't dropped by here in awhile and I'm rusty. You can tell.

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