History Thread

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Re: History Thread

Post #101 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:59 pm

Regarding the "civility" argument these discussions existed before.

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vs.

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But when you want to do business with nazis it's nice to fall back on civility.
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Re: History Thread

Post #102 by senate » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:14 pm

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Re: History Thread

Post #103 by PredsFan77 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:41 pm

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Re: History Thread

Post #104 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:15 pm

More great Nazi content.

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Re: History Thread

Post #105 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:05 pm

cant find the articles online anywhere but remember going to the dachau museum and the newspaper/magazine clippings they had featuring positive review of writers from either england or the US about the early version of Dachau, when it was just the poltical prisoners, gypsys, and queers.
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Re: History Thread

Post #106 by shredz [Bot] » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:11 am

If there is one thing we can learn fellas, history can teach us the evils that men do concealed by the victories and fog of war.
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Re: History Thread

Post #107 by shredz [Bot] » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:40 am

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Re: History Thread

Post #108 by shredz [Bot] » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:54 am

Whoa.

HMB Endeavour found: One of the greatest maritime mysteries of all time solved

New York: Marine archaeologists believe they have finally identified the resting place of HMB Endeavour, the ship James Cook commanded to Australia on his first voyage of discovery, an achievement that would solve one of the greatest maritime mysteries of all time.

The breakthrough has raised hopes the remains of the vessel will be excavated next year, in time for the 250th anniversary of Cook's arrival in Australia. The ship is historically significant to many countries - including the US, Britain, New Zealand and Australia - and its excavation could spark a battle over where the wreckage should be housed.

The Rhode Island state government claimed official ownership of the fleet of shipwrecks including Endeavour in 1999, suggesting Australian officials would have to negotiate for any remnants to be brought to Australia.

The breakthrough, to be officially announced on Friday, follows an arduous 25-year search for the historic ship off Newport, Rhode Island, on the north-eastern coast of the US.

Archaeologists from the Australian National Maritime Museum and the Rhode Island Marine Archaeology Project will release a detailed 3D image of the site in Newport Harbour where they believe the ship is located.

Peter Dexter, the chairman of the Australian National Maritime Museum, is travelling to the United States to attend the event, as will Australia's consul-general in New York, Alastair Walton.

Over 25 years, marine archaeologists have narrowed down the search for the Endeavour from a fleet of 13 vessels to five, and have now pinpointed one extremely promising site.

The site is located just off Goat Island, a small island in the Narragansett Bay.

Kathy Abbass, director of the Rhode Island Marine Archaeology Project, told Fairfax Media: "We can say we think we know which one it is.

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"It is exciting, we are closing in.

"This is a vessel that is significant to people around the world, including Australia."

Dr Abbass said she was hopeful the ship could be excavated next year, in time for the April 2020 celebrations marking 250 years since Cook's arrival at Botany Bay.

She said the identity of the ship will only be definitively proven after its excavation, which will require significant funding.

It is unclear how much of the ship remains given Endeavour was primarily made of materials such as oak and pine and has been underwater for over 200 years.

The Endeavour was purchased by the British Navy in 1768 for a scientific mission to the Pacific Ocean and to locate the mysterious southern continent then known as Terra Australis.

Cook departed Plymouth in August 1768, travelling through the Pacific Islands before arriving in New Zealand in September 1769.

In April 1770, Endeavour became the first ship to reach the east coast of mainland Australia, when Cook arrived at the site now known as Botany Bay.

The ship was sold in 1775 and renamed Lord Sandwich 2. It was hired as a British troop transport during the American War of Independence and was scuttled in a blockade off Rhode Island in 1778.

Volunteer researchers from the Rhode Island Marine Archaeology Project began their study of the group of vessels believed to include the ship in 1993.

In recent years, the Australian National Maritime Museum has provided grants to help fund the deep-dive and remote sensing studies that have helped narrow the search for the ship.

The Endeavour replica heads up the coast off Sydney in 2005.

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"Now that RIMAP [Rhode Island Marine Archaeology Project] and the ANMM [Australian National Maritime Museum] have identified a possible site in Newport Harbor that might be the Lord Sandwich ex Endeavour, the detailed work must begin to prove it," Ms Abbass said in a statement posted on the group's website on Tuesday US time.

"Therefore, fundraising is ongoing for the artifact management facility needed to process, store, and display the artifacts that will emerge from the planned 2019 excavation."

In 1999 Rhode Island Attorney General Sheldon Whitehouse oversaw a series of legal maneuvers which gave Rhode Island ownership of the historic Newport fleet, including the Endeavour.

The Rhode Island Historical Preservation and Heritage Commission is now the custodian of the shipwrecks.





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Re: History Thread

Post #109 by shredz [Bot] » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:23 am

Could just as easily be said about modern American empire, no?

Mass Media is falling apart.
Mass Production...of what exactly?
Mass Politics = A complete joke. No faith in the system. Each class at each other's throats.




The Russian Revolution as Past Made Present

Mikhail Zygar, The Empire Must Die: Russia’s Revolutionary Collapse, 1900-1917.

Revolutions are about questions of time. They look to rectify injustice for a just future built from the ashes of the past. Revolutions break time and rewind the calendar to year zero. Revolutions speed up time by driving the apocalypse to the present. But revolutions are also objects of time—they become moribund when the revolutionary clock slows down, reinvigorated when it’s sped up, or become petrified with age. Revolutions are about narrative time with beginnings and ends. Revolutions are also about commemorative time by honoring martyrs, rehabilitating villains, and remembering victims. Revolutions also resurrect time as events of inspiration or foreboding in the present.

The centenary of the Russian Revolution evokes all these questions of time. Many books published to mark this world historical event reflect on its origins, meanings, and legacies. Mikhail Zygar’s The Empire Must Die: Russia’s Revolutionary Collapse, 1900-1917 is no different in this regard. It’s a book about time too. And not just to establish a narrative timeline for the Russian Revolution—1900 to 1917—but as an allegory for Russia’s present. For Zygar, today’s Russia is a modern remake of the death of the Russian empire a hundred years ago.

Written for a broad readership, The Empire Must Die will certainly attract attention, especially in Russia where Zygar’s status as founding editor-in-chief of Dozhd and his incisive All the Kremlin’s Men: Inside the Court of Vladimir Putin has garnered him a wide audience among Russia’s educated classes. Zygar has spent the year shepherding an allegoric memory of the Russian empire’s death as the mastermind of Project 1917. This incredibly innovative website provides a day-to-day retelling of the Russian Revolution through the voices of its witnesses. (Full disclosure: I do volunteer translations for the English version of Project 1917). Project 1917 also fills a broad vacuum left by the Kremlin. When asked if the Kremlin had any plans to commemorate the October Revolution, Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov replied, “What’s the point of celebrating, anyway?” This has been the government’s position all year and serves as a tacit admission that the Russian Revolution is best forgotten in the sands of time.

The Empire Must Die synthesizes the methods and tone of All the Kremlin’s Men with the voices from Project 1917. The book, as Zygar explains, is “written according to the rules of journalism” and narrated “as if the characters were alive and I had been able to interview them” (ix). In another temporal twist, The Empire Must Die’s narrative is entirely in the present tense giving the reader the impression that Russia’s tumultuous first septem decimal of the 20th century is unfolding in real time. This journalistic method, the drama of the period, the dramatism of Zygar’s characters, and his engaging and sometimes wry prose makes The Empire Must Die a pleasurable read.

The Empire Must Die tells of the story of the Tsarist governing elite committing slow suicide. But this death drive was part fate, part intransigence, and part incompetence. Indeed, Russia’s leadership at the turn of the 20th century was ill equipped or just simply unwilling to manage the three “Ms” of modernity—mass production, mass media, and mass politics—and all its tangents. This is not to say there weren’t some bright lights or forward-thinking individuals. The autocratic system produced brilliance despite itself, and Zygar brings many of these to life: Leo Tolstoy, Sergei Witte, Peter Struve, Gregory Gapon, Pavel Milyukov, Maxim Gorky, Piotr Stolypin, Leon Trotsky, Irakli Tsereteli, Alexander Kerensky, and even Vladimir Lenin among many others. The intransigence of the Tsarist system split these men into two camps: cautious reformers and fervent radicals. Each represents an age-old debate about change in Russia: will it be “from above” or “from below.”

Fate, myopia, hesitance and stupidity—yes, stupidity—stymied the former and fostered the latter. For Russia’s great Tsarist reformers—Alexander II, Sergei Witte, and Piotr Stolypin—it was too little too late. Russian terrorists assassinated Alexander and Stolypin. The hapless and aloof Nicholas II sacked Witte. The great pains the autocracy’s best and brightest went to keeping reform from above from becoming revolution from below only made the latter only more palatable, not just for the radicals, but for moderates as well. Tsarist repression further greased the slide toward revolution: the arrest and exile of revolutionaries big and small, troops shooting on peacefully protesting crowds, and the furious application of the infamous “Stolypin necktie.” Between 1907 and 1909 alone, 3,770 people were sent to the gallows. As Zygar writes, “The ordinariness of the death penalty is a sign of the times” (259). The Tsarist government’s repeated “wars on terrorism” may have scattered Russia’s revolutionaries for the short term; but it hardened their resolve for the long haul.

It is here where temporality has an interesting function in Zygar’s text. His reliance on the present tense fast forwards his characters and the world they inhabit to the present. In this respect, The Empire Must Die is an allegory on the now as much as it is a rumination on the yesterday. This past as present is further highlighted in Zygar’s footnotes which make repeated comparisons between his characters and their contexts with those of 21st century Russia. With this book, Zygar is saying Russia inhabits an eternal return of its own making. As Zygar’s final lines state, “Russian history is an illness. Our history has made us all sick. I do not want to die from this illness.” Here, the past made present transforms into premonition.

Given this, who then is Zygar’s real audience? It’s clear it’s not the Russian people—they’re presence is hardly felt. They’re cast as either an amorphous Greek chorus or voiceless subalterns with little agency. Revolution is the folly of great men with some women sprinkled along the way. Perhaps the audience is Russia’s present day middle classes and intelligentsia, who have historical agency but swing wildly between solidarity and fratricide, foresight and resignation, despair and impatience. But for the most part, Zygar’s book is for Russia’s current ruling elite and those politically active non-systemic elements that seek to change Russia. The Empire Must Die is a portal into the past where these two groups are supposed to see their reflections and take time’s lesson to heart. And the message for each is one Zygar garnered from reading those century old memoirs and documents: “All believe that their intentions were good, but, alas, looking back, they recognize the road that their good intentions have paved—and where it leads.” For Zygar, the tragedy of the Russian Revolution is “imprinted in Russia’s cerebral cortex” and it must be excised.



https://seansrussiablog.org/2017/12/24/ ... e-present/
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Re: History Thread

Post #110 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:49 am

shredz [Bot] wrote:Could just as easily be said about modern American empire, no?

Mass Media is falling apart.
Mass Production...of what exactly?
Mass Politics = A complete joke. No faith in the system. Each class at each other's throats.


You idiots are drowning in plenty and don’t see it. Richest society in the history of the world, crying victimhood and end of times.

What you idiots need is to come to terms with your horrible past of racism and runaway individualism and find a nice balance as a social democracy.

Relax, take a deep breath, stop going crazy, become sane.

:danson:
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Re: History Thread

Post #111 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:09 am

Dog wrote:
shredz [Bot] wrote:Could just as easily be said about modern American empire, no?

Mass Media is falling apart.
Mass Production...of what exactly?
Mass Politics = A complete joke. No faith in the system. Each class at each other's throats.


You idiots are drowning in plenty and don’t see it. Richest society in the history of the world, crying victimhood and end of times.

What you idiots need is to come to terms with your horrible past of racism and runaway individualism and find a nice balance as a social democracy.

Relax, take a deep breath, stop going crazy, become sane.

:danson:


Its over three hundred million people with likely ditto amount of guns or more floating around. With the technical advancements, everyone has their own opinion which means many folk are down the other's throats. Not exactly easy to become cohesive. A nice new War will do. :trump:

The so-called Republic has been marginalized into a basket case of politically illiterate tribes so drowned out in the noise, they refuse or downright can't spell out reality. You have the same people who called George W Bush a Nazi, asking where the George W. Bush's of the World are? Some minorities and feminists, right wing, what ever, should either choose to become a part of a system or continue playing that same victim card. End of times shit has always been around.

I wish everyone took some collective breaths, but I'm not holding mine. :crossarms:
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Re: History Thread

Post #112 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:25 am

Also, the country has been at war for how long? Its ingrained in everyone's mind. People have been playing video games that are essentially training you to become a marksman (CIA and Pentagon developed many video games and the format they are played in) - we don't live in the era even I remember slightly.

We're just educating the Chinese and other foreign students while many of ours go on to useless careers and positions. Trump is correct about a few gripes but in no way do I condone the way he goes about them.
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Re: History Thread

Post #113 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:36 am

Meh, you’ll/we’ll get through your/our adolescence. Tech and trade, specialization and productivity, have and will continue to make the world richer and bteer off. We’re in the growing pains of learning how to act as a mature adults. We’ve become rich in the aggregate, but now need to learn to keep the mechanics that make us rich but also provide for the left behind. For the US to become a functional society again, it needs to come to gribs with its racist and over-individualistic impulses. Eurp needs to come to gribs with its own racist impulses. Grow a wider sense of fucken social solidarity, without undoing the wealth and innovation creating basics of market economies. Things are pretty good if people stop panicking -and in the US learn to stop being manipulated by plutocrats.
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Re: History Thread

Post #114 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:48 am

That's the rational track but with the current populist wave pretty much across the globe, we seem to be heading in an authoritarian direction. We need to end the war in Syria and every other war that continues to displace people. It's been going on en masse since 2003.

Social media should be a tool to bring people together for the right reasons (and some of that has happened) but for the most part, its a forum for people to express their racial views and group together with others across the world, Sure, they are a minority but its still a prick that flares tensions. Everyday there is a new battle to be fought.
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Re: History Thread

Post #115 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:49 am

shredz [Bot] wrote:Trump is correct about a few gripes but in no way do I condone the way he goes about them.


Relative decline, very little absolute decline. Very different things.

But, yes, the uneducated white mens dominion is coming to an end. We should not stop or even revert progress for them, but should take care of them. As we should take care of any socially “less fit” demographic. Wealth is not a zero-sum game at all. In fact, it’s the opposite. It depends on cooperation and specialization. Hive work. Work of tomorrow (even today) seems to cluster towards either the creative/human relation/complex that robots can’t duplicate or shitty work that’s not worth getting robots to do. The repetitive blue and white collar hobs are disapearing. That’s not bad, that’s good. Makes production cheaper and most often better. Question is allowing those displaced to retrain or otherwise still live productive/purposefilled lives. Minimum guaranteed income is likely in the future as is less work. And the world has never been richer. Just have to rise above animal instincts and pull it all together in a thoughtful, effective and holistic/coordinated manner.

Not too much to ask of the humens, is it?
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Re: History Thread

Post #116 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:52 am

We need someone like you to get in there and completely overhaul the monetary bureaucracy and put an end to useless spending and corruption. The books need to be straightened out and policy needs to start reflecting human needs more. We should absolutely have the ability to provide quality healthcare for everyone.
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Re: History Thread

Post #117 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:57 am

shredz [Bot] wrote:That's the rational track but with the current populist wave pretty much across the globe, we seem to be heading in an authoritarian direction. We need to end the war in Syria and every other war that continues to displace people. It's been going on en masse since 2003.

Social media should be a tool to bring people together for the right reasons (and some of that has happened) but for the most part, its a forum for people to express their racial views and group together with others across the world, Sure, they are a minority but its still a prick that flares tensions. Everyday there is a new battle to be fought.


Wars have been a de facto state of affairs since the beginning of recorded history. What’s changed is that it’s become more an more morally intolerable. Don’t look now, but despite jingoistic impulses still existing, its a less and less tolerable thing.

Same for social media/internets. People went nuts with their newfound freedom, broke everything and are now starting to notice. We’ll learn to be more mature about it.
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Re: History Thread

Post #118 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:59 am

But even beyond a moral standpoint (most people don't even know where Turkey is on a map, so why would they care about Iraq, etc) - we are wasting trillions on quagmires to keep chess pieces on a board. I don't mind some of it but we've gone way out of control. Why didn't people listen to Eisenhower?
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Re: History Thread

Post #119 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:03 pm

shredz [Bot] wrote:We need someone like you to get in there and completely overhaul the monetary bureaucracy and put an end to useless spending and corruption. The books need to be straightened out and policy needs to start reflecting human needs more. We should absolutely have the ability to provide quality healthcare for everyone.


Lol. Baby steps. ‘Bama is a smarter, taller, prettier and more eloquent version of someone like me. You need more of these. I don’t think you’ll violently shift left overnight, but you can certainly inch towards center left (likely where you should be and stay). GWB’s folly made Obama possible. Trump’s folly will make other, even more openly progressive leaders possible.

Murka will inevitably trend towards it. The autoritarian backlash is the desperate clinging to power of a falling demographic. Don’t turn nazi, and you won’t, and you’ll be fine me thinks.
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Re: History Thread

Post #120 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:09 pm

shredz [Bot] wrote:But even beyond a moral standpoint (most people don't even know where Turkey is on a map, so why would they care about Iraq, etc) - we are wasting trillions on quagmires to keep chess pieces on a board. I don't mind some of it but we've gone way out of control. Why didn't people listen to Eisenhower?


You need pieces on the board. Can’t just pull out and leave a vacuum. Have to be rational and strategic and non-dogmatic. It should be about preserving international stability to the extent possible, as that what allows humens to flourish -Murkans more than most.

As for Iraq, I think Murkans need to own up to the shitstorm they’ve unleashed with their unfathomable stupidity and arrogance. It pisses me off when Murka talks of Iraq and its offspring -including the severety of the Syrian civil war- as “not their problem”. Fuckers, you set it motion with a horrific crime of aggression against humanity and now you’re developing amnesia and moaning about spending some money and troops containing the worst excesses of what you’ve unleashed?
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Re: History Thread

Post #121 by Craig » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:12 pm

Dog wrote:
shredz [Bot] wrote:We need someone like you to get in there and completely overhaul the monetary bureaucracy and put an end to useless spending and corruption. The books need to be straightened out and policy needs to start reflecting human needs more. We should absolutely have the ability to provide quality healthcare for everyone.


Lol. Baby steps. ‘Bama is a smarter, taller, prettier and more eloquent version of someone like me. You need more of these. I don’t think you’ll violently shift left overnight, but you can certainly inch towards center left (likely where you should be and stay). GWB’s folly made Obama possible. Trump’s folly will make other, even more openly progressive leaders possible.

Murka will inevitably trend towards it. The autoritarian backlash is the desperate clinging to power of a falling demographic. Don’t turn nazi, and you won’t, and you’ll be fine me thinks.


You see a falling demographic, I see a falling demographic being manipulated by oligarchs against their best interests. Even if old white man angst passes and we move on to the next thing, rich America will just find some other group to exploit to protect their interests.
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Re: History Thread

Post #122 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:13 pm

There has been a proxy war between Bashar al Assad and the US since a little after the invasion. Assad harboured many al Qaeda and future ISIS militants and would allow them to conduct cross border attacks. His intelligence services made things worse with the obvious blessing of Iran. I love the hypocrisy of both sides. Iran cares for Iraq but continued the war for how long with their revolutionary militias which became death squads leading to the rise of the Islamic State. Don't be surprised if an ISIS 2.0 appears. The political conditions are the same, if not trending worse, and Sunnis are still fucked in both countries.
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Re: History Thread

Post #123 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:16 pm

Craig wrote:
Dog wrote:
shredz [Bot] wrote:We need someone like you to get in there and completely overhaul the monetary bureaucracy and put an end to useless spending and corruption. The books need to be straightened out and policy needs to start reflecting human needs more. We should absolutely have the ability to provide quality healthcare for everyone.


Lol. Baby steps. ‘Bama is a smarter, taller, prettier and more eloquent version of someone like me. You need more of these. I don’t think you’ll violently shift left overnight, but you can certainly inch towards center left (likely where you should be and stay). GWB’s folly made Obama possible. Trump’s folly will make other, even more openly progressive leaders possible.

Murka will inevitably trend towards it. The autoritarian backlash is the desperate clinging to power of a falling demographic. Don’t turn nazi, and you won’t, and you’ll be fine me thinks.


You see a falling demographic, I see a falling demographic being manipulated by oligarchs against their best interests. Even if old white man angst passes and we move on to the next thing, rich America will just find some other group to exploit to protect their interests.


Yes, but you need severe disenchantment to manipulate like that. Unlikely to stick much with younger demographics. Maybe the GOP will turn to being the champion of catholic latino family values?

Seriously, they’ve lost the demographic war. Only a matter of time before it becomes ever more clear.

:danson:
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Re: History Thread

Post #124 by Craig » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:20 pm

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:
Dog wrote:
Lol. Baby steps. ‘Bama is a smarter, taller, prettier and more eloquent version of someone like me. You need more of these. I don’t think you’ll violently shift left overnight, but you can certainly inch towards center left (likely where you should be and stay). GWB’s folly made Obama possible. Trump’s folly will make other, even more openly progressive leaders possible.

Murka will inevitably trend towards it. The autoritarian backlash is the desperate clinging to power of a falling demographic. Don’t turn nazi, and you won’t, and you’ll be fine me thinks.


You see a falling demographic, I see a falling demographic being manipulated by oligarchs against their best interests. Even if old white man angst passes and we move on to the next thing, rich America will just find some other group to exploit to protect their interests.


Yes, but you need severe disenchantment to manipulate like that. Unlikely to stick much with younger demographics. Maybe the GOP will turn to being the champion of catholic latino family values?

Seriously, they’ve lost the demographic war. Only a matter of time before it becomes ever more clear.

:danson:


Who said it had to be the GOP that keeps winning? The Left can be coopted by money to do stupid things against their interest just as much as the Right. Are you seriously saying that young people aren't prone to feeling disenchantment?

Right now rural, white America is being exploited by billionaires to enrich themselves. When rural, white America isn't in a position to protect the Billionaires, they'll just find another group. There's always going to be a minority or declining majority that can be bought/manipulated. The real fix for America is getting a handle on the impacts of money on their political process. Everything else is just a symptom.
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Re: History Thread

Post #125 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:25 pm

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Re: History Thread

Post #126 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:32 pm

Craig wrote:Who said it had to be the GOP that keeps winning? The Left can be coopted by money to do stupid things against their interest just as much as the Right. Are you seriously saying that young people aren't prone to feeling disenchantment?

Right now rural, white America is being exploited by billionaires to enrich themselves. When rural, white America isn't in a position to protect the Billionaires, they'll just find another group. There's always going to be a minority or declining majority that can be bought/manipulated. The real fix for America is getting a handle on the impacts of money on their political process. Everything else is just a symptom.


Agree that fixing campaign finance in the US (which right now is not much else than institutionalized mass scale bribery) is the top priority.

Young people haven’t shown an inclination towards ethno-nationalism (the contrary is much truer, even if there are exceptions). That’s what I was referring to. Not fertile ground for the GOP. Agreed that if disenchanted they are more likely to fall for the far left. Agreed that the left (like anything) can also become corrupted. And it’s not just billionaires that can coopt the state, unions and cronyism can as well.

I’m preaching for a center-left position, not a swing to the other extreme of leftish authoritarians and bad governance. Also think the probability of the US becoming hard left is close to zero so I’m not too worried about that.
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Re: History Thread

Post #127 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:43 pm

It can probably also be said that Trump himself is the the “revolution” breaking free from the plutocrats. In a horribly misguided manner, absolutely. They fell for a charlatan, playing on their prejudices. But Trump certainly isn’t GOP donor class material. His trade disputes alone is anti-thesis. And he won with a shit ton less money and organization. As did Obama before him -both Obama and Trump are grassroots up -not top down candidates.

That should be telling.
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Re: History Thread

Post #128 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:48 pm

That 100 million that don't vote need to get some skin in the game. I am not sure what people are waiting for. It should be relatively easy to start a true movement of responsible liberals who will not overturn the system but make adjustments and follow what was laid out in our founding papers. The divisions and scars could be insurmountable. I hate to sound so bearish on the American people but history has not been kind to us recently.

Sure, "we" have the wealth but its being horded or put in a mechanism that benefits the few and keeps the moolah in a schemed out circulation.

We can't have an Oprah moment but lets at least get our basics together. Go big into infrastructure and creating new jobs based on new demands. We have to be able to adapt to trends and evolutions like water. No more tug of war while the fat cat laughs from above.
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Re: History Thread

Post #129 by Craig » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:49 pm

Trump is mostly their useful idiot. He got their precious tax cuts and if he isn't checked he'll gut the social safety net next.
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Re: History Thread

Post #130 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:51 pm

Craig wrote:Trump is mostly their useful idiot. He got their precious tax cuts and if he isn't checked he'll gut the social safety net next.


They lost control of their party, it was highjacked -they are just trying to contain the fire. Winning some and losing some.
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Re: History Thread

Post #131 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:04 pm

shredz [Bot] wrote:That 100 million that don't vote need to get some skin in the game. I am not sure what people are waiting for. It should be relatively easy to start a true movement of responsible liberals who will not overturn the system but make adjustments and follow what was laid out in our founding papers. The decisiveness could be insurmountable. I hate to sound so bearish on the American people but history has not been kind to us recently.

Sure, "we" have the wealth but its being horded or put in a mechanism that benefits the few and keeps the moolah in a schemed out circulation.

We can't have an Oprah moment but lets at least get our basics together. Go big into infrastructure and creating new jobs based on new demands. We have to be able to adapt to trends and evolutions like water. No more tug of war while the fat cat laughs from above.


Even this I think is an overatatement. I don’t really believe in a timeless cabal running things. There is rather, I think, a constant tug of war between competing interests and from such individual impulses arises a place of synergy that benefits most....as long as the system is somewhat kept in equilibrium. Individualist, entrepreneurial, “can-do” capitalism is a great thing about Murka. I believe in market economies. They are efficient (much more than any alternatives) in ressource allocation and in fostering innovation. Murka does that better than anyone. Thing is, like all things, it can get out of hand. Too much capital concentration and the social fabric that enables the market system starts ripping at the seams. As you get richer, inequality is inevitable. Thing is, as you get richer you gain more aggregate wealth and have to progressively start redistributing more. The welfare state can also get out of hand, as we saw in the 60s and 70s. It’s a balance. Grow aggregate wealth and spend in accordance with your purchasing power. Balance. If you take Murka’s social spending, it is far below other western rich economies. However, if you add in what you idiots spend on workplace insurance and retirement schemes, you actually shoot up to one of the biggest spenders. I think racism is a big part of that. People don’t want to share with stereotyped “others” and so actually prefer to spend considerably MOAR in private schemes. It’s nuts but it is what it is. Legacy of your racist roots. You’ll have to deal with that to heal and gel as a functioning society.
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Re: History Thread

Post #132 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:09 pm

Everybody wants to rule the world.

:colbert:

If its the regular people playing tug of war while the powerful manipulate these people, you can create a druidic system that is beyond the governments control. Not that its a cabal, but its the same people and same interests running the show, I'm just saying people need to take a breath, put the rope down, and figure out how to implement some real changes with a mass movement. Taking to the streets to yell at Trump effigies is doing nothing.
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Re: History Thread

Post #133 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

shredz [Bot] wrote:Everybody wants to rule the world.

:colbert:

If its the regular people playing tug of war while the powerful manipulate these people, you can create a druidic system that is beyond the governments control. Not that its a cabal, but its the same people and same interests running the show, I'm just saying people need to take a breath, put the rope down, and figure out how to implement some real changes with a mass movement. Taking to the streets to yell at Trump effigies is doing nothing.


It’s not that bad. If you idiots didn’t have a two term limit, ya could have just continued on with ‘bama.

Don’t want to go all Pinker on you (I’m really just trolling Dr C now :)), but people forget that humens have never, ever been better off.

The US isn’t even off western countries in terms of social spending (if you include private/workplace schemes) -and social spending at these levels is a relatively new thing. You just prefer to pay more so as to not share with the black fellows. That’s your oddity.
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Re: History Thread

Post #134 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:19 pm

Give them a nice chunk of the south and call it Africa-America lol
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Re: History Thread

Post #135 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:23 pm

shredz [Bot] wrote:Give them a nice chunk of the south and call it Africa-America lol


Should have just let “them” separate a century and a half ago instead of keeping the cancer within.

:danson:
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Re: History Thread

Post #136 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:26 pm

The media sometimes likes to blow things out of proportion with racial issues which does nothing but fuel the fire. A true initiative for African-Americans should include a formal apology, land, money, whatever. You cant just sweep over these deep divisions and wounds. I saw a tweet by the US Army last year where they celebrated their inclusion and respect for minorities during their entire existence. Yeah fucking right. If I was black and read that I would never sign up for that. Not that I would either way. Too many wars of choice going on.
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Re: History Thread

Post #137 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:27 pm

But seriously, I think there is way too much panic. These are transition times, not end of the world times. Transitions are more uncertain and dangerous times, but also times of much more potential.

What’s pushing the transition? Greater human connectiveness, social consciousness, enlargement of group definitions and greater aggregate wealth. Good things. Will lead to a good place once we learn to play nice. Of course, I’m not ruling out a full on thermonuclear war as an essential part of the learning progress. C’est la vie.
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Re: History Thread

Post #138 by AD » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:29 pm

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:
Dog wrote:
Lol. Baby steps. ‘Bama is a smarter, taller, prettier and more eloquent version of someone like me. You need more of these. I don’t think you’ll violently shift left overnight, but you can certainly inch towards center left (likely where you should be and stay). GWB’s folly made Obama possible. Trump’s folly will make other, even more openly progressive leaders possible.

Murka will inevitably trend towards it. The autoritarian backlash is the desperate clinging to power of a falling demographic. Don’t turn nazi, and you won’t, and you’ll be fine me thinks.


You see a falling demographic, I see a falling demographic being manipulated by oligarchs against their best interests. Even if old white man angst passes and we move on to the next thing, rich America will just find some other group to exploit to protect their interests.


Yes, but you need severe disenchantment to manipulate like that. Unlikely to stick much with younger demographics. Maybe the GOP will turn to being the champion of catholic latino family values?

Seriously, they’ve lost the demographic war. Only a matter of time before it becomes ever more clear.

:danson:


The nationalist party in South Africa lost the demographic war 4 decades before they lost power.

Israel's right wing lost the demographic war 10 years ago.

Your belief in this fragile confidence based ultra-balanced system that has only existed on earth for a few decades, and only in a few places, is strange. I like it by the way. Big fan. I love it just as much as you.

But it has literally been in existence for a very small minority of civilization and only for a very small minority of humans durring those years.
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Re: History Thread

Post #139 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:31 pm

End of the world talk has been going on since the dawn of the first day. Its nothing new. Its the dogma instilled in people that keeps them from transcending religious stigmas to transition into a reality based system that has nothing to do with the church. Bush went around with the War on Terror against Muslim nations all while declaring the US is a Christian Nation. Its shit like that which keeps us going backwards. Build and let things be. We never should have given the banks a pass. I thought we are a capitalist nation. The elite stick together because they have more to lose.
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Re: History Thread

Post #140 by Craig » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:39 pm

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Trump is mostly their useful idiot. He got their precious tax cuts and if he isn't checked he'll gut the social safety net next.


They lost control of their party, it was highjacked -they are just trying to contain the fire. Winning some and losing some.


They have not. They own the courts and both legislative branches, along with the majority of state legislatures. They have a dummy in the Whitehouse that they can impeach whenever they want if he hurts their interests. The American shitshow, in terms of actual impact, is a lot more about Mitch McConnel and Paul Ryan than it is Trump.
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Re: History Thread

Post #141 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:44 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:
You see a falling demographic, I see a falling demographic being manipulated by oligarchs against their best interests. Even if old white man angst passes and we move on to the next thing, rich America will just find some other group to exploit to protect their interests.


Yes, but you need severe disenchantment to manipulate like that. Unlikely to stick much with younger demographics. Maybe the GOP will turn to being the champion of catholic latino family values?

Seriously, they’ve lost the demographic war. Only a matter of time before it becomes ever more clear.

:danson:


The nationalist party in South Africa lost the demographic war 4 decades before they lost power.

Israel's right wing lost the demographic war 10 years ago.

Your belief in this fragile confidence based ultra-balanced system that has only existed on earth for a few decades, and only in a few places, is strange. I like it by the way. Big fan. I love it just as much as you.

But it has literally been in existence for a very small minority of civilization and only for a very small minority of humans durring those years.


I know. Not saying progress is linear, but it’s trending (non-linearly) heavily in that direction, at least since the enlightenment and industrial/scientific revolutions.
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Re: History Thread

Post #142 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:48 pm

shredz [Bot] wrote:End of the world talk has been going on since the dawn of the first day. Its nothing new. Its the dogma instilled in people that keeps them from transcending religious stigmas to transition into a reality based system that has nothing to do with the church. Bush went around with the War on Terror against Muslim nations all while declaring the US is a Christian Nation. Its shit like that which keeps us going backwards. Build and let things be. We never should have given the banks a pass. I thought we are a capitalist nation. The elite stick together because they have more to lose.


Agree with everything but the last two sentences. You needed to save the banks, but what you should have done is nationalize some and put in much more stringent regs. You didn’t.

In any event, banking system itself is about to become much more decentralized with the emergence of fintechs. That’s one of the very next industries to get overhauled by tech innovation.
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Re: History Thread

Post #143 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:50 pm

Craig wrote:
Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Trump is mostly their useful idiot. He got their precious tax cuts and if he isn't checked he'll gut the social safety net next.


They lost control of their party, it was highjacked -they are just trying to contain the fire. Winning some and losing some.


They have not. They own the courts and both legislative branches, along with the majority of state legislatures. They have a dummy in the Whitehouse that they can impeach whenever they want if he hurts their interests. The American shitshow, in terms of actual impact, is a lot more about Mitch McConnel and Paul Ryan than it is Trump.


How many members of congress oppose Trump? What happens when they do? Trump/anti-establishment owns the base of the party.
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Re: History Thread

Post #144 by shredz [Bot] » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:50 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:
You see a falling demographic, I see a falling demographic being manipulated by oligarchs against their best interests. Even if old white man angst passes and we move on to the next thing, rich America will just find some other group to exploit to protect their interests.


Yes, but you need severe disenchantment to manipulate like that. Unlikely to stick much with younger demographics. Maybe the GOP will turn to being the champion of catholic latino family values?

Seriously, they’ve lost the demographic war. Only a matter of time before it becomes ever more clear.

:danson:


The nationalist party in South Africa lost the demographic war 4 decades before they lost power.

Israel's right wing lost the demographic war 10 years ago.

Your belief in this fragile confidence based ultra-balanced system that has only existed on earth for a few decades, and only in a few places, is strange. I like it by the way. Big fan. I love it just as much as you.

But it has literally been in existence for a very small minority of civilization and only for a very small minority of humans durring those years.


Israel has been covertly colonizing (in a cultural and political manner) South America/Latin America for years. Excuse is that Iran and Hezbollah are operating there. Look at Brazil now. Could the US greenlight an invasion of Venezuela?

This movement is growing and I don't really see an organized counter balance besides Russia and China but their interests don't always align. They have more problems than many in the west think.
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Re: History Thread

Post #145 by AD » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:57 pm

Dog wrote:
AD wrote:
Dog wrote:
Yes, but you need severe disenchantment to manipulate like that. Unlikely to stick much with younger demographics. Maybe the GOP will turn to being the champion of catholic latino family values?

Seriously, they’ve lost the demographic war. Only a matter of time before it becomes ever more clear.

:danson:


The nationalist party in South Africa lost the demographic war 4 decades before they lost power.

Israel's right wing lost the demographic war 10 years ago.

Your belief in this fragile confidence based ultra-balanced system that has only existed on earth for a few decades, and only in a few places, is strange. I like it by the way. Big fan. I love it just as much as you.

But it has literally been in existence for a very small minority of civilization and only for a very small minority of humans durring those years.


I know. Not saying progress is linear, but it’s trending (non-linearly) heavily in that direction, at least since the enlightenment and industrial/scientific revolutions.


It trended nowhere. We were a blip. Just like "democracy" in Rome. We're all gonna die.
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Re: History Thread

Post #146 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:03 pm

I agree that we are all going to die -well, probably.
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Re: History Thread

Post #147 by Craig » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:04 pm

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:
Dog wrote:
They lost control of their party, it was highjacked -they are just trying to contain the fire. Winning some and losing some.


They have not. They own the courts and both legislative branches, along with the majority of state legislatures. They have a dummy in the Whitehouse that they can impeach whenever they want if he hurts their interests. The American shitshow, in terms of actual impact, is a lot more about Mitch McConnel and Paul Ryan than it is Trump.


How many members of congress oppose Trump? What happens when they do? Trump/anti-establishment owns the base of the party.


I don't think that's true. If the Republican base has proven anything over the last 20 years, it's that they follow whoever their leader is blindly and will change their views to suit that immediately. They were all in on NeoCons, Religious right, Tea Party and now Trump. I don't see any reason to think their love of Trump is anything that breaks that cycle.
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Re: History Thread

Post #148 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:05 pm

We are, however, in the midst of like a 250 year old unbelievable upswing in living conditions for an ever greater amount of humens.
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Re: History Thread

Post #149 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:05 pm

And, by extension, dogs.
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Re: History Thread

Post #150 by Dog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:06 pm

Craig wrote:
Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:
They have not. They own the courts and both legislative branches, along with the majority of state legislatures. They have a dummy in the Whitehouse that they can impeach whenever they want if he hurts their interests. The American shitshow, in terms of actual impact, is a lot more about Mitch McConnel and Paul Ryan than it is Trump.


How many members of congress oppose Trump? What happens when they do? Trump/anti-establishment owns the base of the party.


I don't think that's true. If the Republican base has proven anything over the last 20 years, it's that they follow whoever their leader is blindly and will change their views to suit that immediately. They were all in on NeoCons, Religious right, Tea Party and now Trump. I don't see any reason to think their love of Trump is anything that breaks that cycle.


Tea party is Trump. And there is a big difference between leading and rallying to. GOP establishment is not leading anymore. Base is not rallying. They’ve flipped.

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