Murrica: fuck yeah

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10651 by PredsFan77 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:17 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10652 by clawfirst » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:30 pm

The left need to try some reverse psychology perhaps. Make him too uncool...
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10653 by senate » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:23 pm

Well, Trudeau just got reelected.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10654 by WTF » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:49 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1005586562959093760


I sense a lot of projection of his own flaws from the Fanta Menace's tweet.

I think he forgot a line though.

"Very dishonest & weak. Totally wants to bone Ivanka too."
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10655 by Dog » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:20 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1005586562959093760



Are we at war, predo??!
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10656 by PredsFan77 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:21 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10657 by jester » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:48 pm

Dog wrote:
PredsFan77 wrote:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1005586562959093760



Are we at war, predo??!


I wish you well in the Maple Border Wars to come.

I really don't get how folks don't see this as idiocy. Even if you agree with the "policies," the implementation is fucking bizarre.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10658 by Dog » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 pm

We’ll take your cheese if you take our aluminimunum, jester.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10659 by Dog » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:13 pm

Russia and China must be beyond ecstatic at this. The end of the West.

:danson:


Until next week, when Trump decides we are best buds again after we give him a token concession he can sell as a win.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10660 by mayoradamwest » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:55 pm

Dog wrote:We’ll take your cheese if you take our aluminimunum, jester.


Maybe we can get European cheese if we only take a minimumaluminium
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10661 by chicpea » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:05 pm

[Trump] arrived at La Malbaie, the scenic luxury resort on the banks of the St. Lawrence River in Quebec, as the four European leaders and the two EU heads were huddled together in a room to coordinate their strategy. The noise of Trump’s helicopter landing was so loud they had to stop talking for a while, in a scene one official compared to the opening from the U.S. television series M.A.S.H.


On Saturday, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau sniped about “stragglers” after Trump was late to a breakfast session on gender equality.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g7-s ... SKCN1J50X6

US needs a civil war.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10662 by Slick Nick » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:30 pm

Dog wrote:Russia and China must be beyond ecstatic at this. The end of the West.

:danson:


Until next week, when Trump decides we are best buds again after we give him a token concession he can sell as a win.


If by the end of the West you mean the end of Western/American unilateralism, yes. It would be such a shame if the grievances of 80% of the world population was ever taken into consideration or the UN actually worked like it was intended to in the first place.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10663 by Dog » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:36 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:Russia and China must be beyond ecstatic at this. The end of the West.

:danson:


Until next week, when Trump decides we are best buds again after we give him a token concession he can sell as a win.


If by the end of the West you mean the end of Western/American unilateralism, yes. It would be such a shame if the grievances of 80% of the world population was ever taken into consideration or the UN actually worked like it was intended to in the first place.


I’m kidding, nick. This is just the reckless way Trump negotiates. Theatrics and loudmouth bully tactics. Trade is actually quite fair between the US and Can. We can’t drop dairy subsidies because the US industry is heavily subsidized and in severe overproduction. In response to overproduction Canada cut supply and the US subsidized. US overproduction worsened. Cutting the tariffs would just result in dumping, which is normally forbidden by trade agreements. To cut tarrifs, the US would need to cut subsidies and probably manage supply like we do.

Everybody knows this. Trump is just grandstanding for his base and because he thinks this is the best way to negotiate. It can work if the other party has no leverage, but we do. Trade is mutually beneficial and many US industries and States depend on exports to Canada.

This is just alot of hot air for effect. We’ll get to an agreement and if we don’t it’s not the end of the world either.

But it strains relationships needlessly -to get to the exact same place you’d get with conventional methods.

Not sure were you see an end to unilateralism anywhere in here. If anything, it’s pushing the envelope on a somewhat rules based multilateral system that has dominated since the end of WWII and done wonders for the world. What exactly do you think would replace it if it was to collapse? A scaleback in cooperation and an increase in protectionism and nationalism. Not a good place to go.

As for the UN, I have no idea how you link the two. You think nationalism (economic or otherise) would strengthen the UN? Wut? I’d love to strenghten the UN and rules based international relations. This leads to the opposite of that. And the UN was never set up to work much better than it currently does. Security concil vetos makes it a lame duck. The UN is a place to talk and to coordinate a few joint projects. That’s good, but it was never meant as more than that.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10664 by senate » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:47 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10665 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:15 am

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:Russia and China must be beyond ecstatic at this. The end of the West.

:danson:


Until next week, when Trump decides we are best buds again after we give him a token concession he can sell as a win.


If by the end of the West you mean the end of Western/American unilateralism, yes. It would be such a shame if the grievances of 80% of the world population was ever taken into consideration or the UN actually worked like it was intended to in the first place.


I’m kidding, nick. This is just the reckless way Trump negotiates. Theatrics and loudmouth bully tactics. Trade is actually quite fair between the US and Can. We can’t drop dairy subsidies because the US industry is heavily subsidized and in severe overproduction. In response to overproduction Canada cut supply and the US subsidized. US overproduction worsened. Cutting the tariffs would just result in dumping, which is normally forbidden by trade agreements. To cut tarrifs, the US would need to cut subsidies and probably manage supply like we do.

Everybody knows this. Trump is just grandstanding for his base and because he thinks this is the best way to negotiate. It can work if the other party has no leverage, but we do. Trade is mutually beneficial and many US industries and States depend on exports to Canada.

This is just alot of hot air for effect. We’ll get to an agreement and if we don’t it’s not the end of the world either.

But it strains relationships needlessly -to get to the exact same place you’d get with conventional methods.

Not sure were you see an end to unilateralism anywhere in here. If anything, it’s pushing the envelope on a somewhat rules based multilateral system that has dominated since the end of WWII and done wonders for the world. What exactly do you think would replace it if it was to collapse? A scaleback in cooperation and an increase in protectionism and nationalism. Not a good place to go.

As for the UN, I have no idea how you link the two. You think nationalism (economic or otherise) would strengthen the UN? Wut? I’d love to strenghten the UN and rules based international relations. This leads to the opposite of that. And the UN was never set up to work much better than it currently does. Security concil vetos makes it a lame duck. The UN is a place to talk and to coordinate a few joint projects. That’s good, but it was never meant as more than that.


I was simply responding to the idea that is tossed around these days that Russia somehow wants to destroy the West or democracy. It doesn't want to do that, it seeks a multi-polar world, this has been a key objective in Russia since at least the days of Primakov (late 90's) who's often considered the ideological godfather of Putin. I don't see where you see a multilateral system that has done wonders for the world, pre soviet collapse world was basically bipolar.. but since 1992, the world has been essentially uni-polar, with the last real manifestation of multipolarism being the Iraq invasion episode. Since, it has increasingly become a one way street. Europe as a political entity or as a collection of individual states rarely has a say in world politics or even in it's own issues. As for the rest of the world, we might just skip the question.

You can blame it on Trump, but the reality is that the power of the US has been fading a lot in the last 15 years (see global trade figures, failures in recent military adventures, etc).. it's not as assertive as it used to be and it's about time to reconsider the way states deal with each other. That's Russia's objective in disrupting the monolithic block that the West has become in the past 15 years.. not destroying it's values or democracy.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10666 by Retardé S » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:46 am

Doggo just doesn't like Trump and Putin like we do, Nikolev.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10667 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:56 am

Retardé S wrote:Doggo just doesn't like Trump and Putin like we do, Nikolev.


I don't like Putin... I understand him, I can live with him as I believe stability is much needed in a post-rekt state.. but I really long for the day a new leader comes and starts slowly reforming the country into a modern boring country.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10668 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:59 am

Trump is pretty tops though

:trump2:
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10669 by Craig » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:26 am

Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10670 by Dog » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:31 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
If by the end of the West you mean the end of Western/American unilateralism, yes. It would be such a shame if the grievances of 80% of the world population was ever taken into consideration or the UN actually worked like it was intended to in the first place.


I’m kidding, nick. This is just the reckless way Trump negotiates. Theatrics and loudmouth bully tactics. Trade is actually quite fair between the US and Can. We can’t drop dairy subsidies because the US industry is heavily subsidized and in severe overproduction. In response to overproduction Canada cut supply and the US subsidized. US overproduction worsened. Cutting the tariffs would just result in dumping, which is normally forbidden by trade agreements. To cut tarrifs, the US would need to cut subsidies and probably manage supply like we do.

Everybody knows this. Trump is just grandstanding for his base and because he thinks this is the best way to negotiate. It can work if the other party has no leverage, but we do. Trade is mutually beneficial and many US industries and States depend on exports to Canada.

This is just alot of hot air for effect. We’ll get to an agreement and if we don’t it’s not the end of the world either.

But it strains relationships needlessly -to get to the exact same place you’d get with conventional methods.

Not sure were you see an end to unilateralism anywhere in here. If anything, it’s pushing the envelope on a somewhat rules based multilateral system that has dominated since the end of WWII and done wonders for the world. What exactly do you think would replace it if it was to collapse? A scaleback in cooperation and an increase in protectionism and nationalism. Not a good place to go.

As for the UN, I have no idea how you link the two. You think nationalism (economic or otherise) would strengthen the UN? Wut? I’d love to strenghten the UN and rules based international relations. This leads to the opposite of that. And the UN was never set up to work much better than it currently does. Security concil vetos makes it a lame duck. The UN is a place to talk and to coordinate a few joint projects. That’s good, but it was never meant as more than that.


I was simply responding to the idea that is tossed around these days that Russia somehow wants to destroy the West or democracy. It doesn't want to do that, it seeks a multi-polar world, this has been a key objective in Russia since at least the days of Primakov (late 90's) who's often considered the ideological godfather of Putin. I don't see where you see a multilateral system that has done wonders for the world, pre soviet collapse world was basically bipolar.. but since 1992, the world has been essentially uni-polar, with the last real manifestation of multipolarism being the Iraq invasion episode. Since, it has increasingly become a one way street. Europe as a political entity or as a collection of individual states rarely has a say in world politics or even in it's own issues. As for the rest of the world, we might just skip the question.

You can blame it on Trump, but the reality is that the power of the US has been fading a lot in the last 15 years (see global trade figures, failures in recent military adventures, etc).. it's not as assertive as it used to be and it's about time to reconsider the way states deal with each other. That's Russia's objective in disrupting the monolithic block that the West has become in the past 15 years.. not destroying it's values or democracy.


I think this is quite fair and I largely agree. Not sure I see many vanguards of liberal-democracy outside the West, though. And it seems to be quickly fading or at least in grave danger in the West too.

In the end, I care about liberal democracy. If Russia or China becomes its leading proponent, consider me pro Russia and pro China. It’s not a country thing, it’s an ideology thing. I really worry about the prospect of the world falling into aggressive nationalism and protectionism. That spells all sorts of trouble.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10671 by Boring Choice #2 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:42 am

Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


I still had hair in 1992. :colbert:
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10672 by Dog » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:48 am

Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


He’s saying it’s unipolar. I agree, but further think the West used that (since WWII in much of the world and since the early 90s in the communist block) to impose a semi rules based multilateral trade system that has greatly benefited many regions of the world (notably China, southeast Asia and India to a lesser extent. That has lead to an awesome reduction in poverty in those countries, which is what I qualify as a somewhat rules based international sustem that has done wonders for the world. The story is less rosy in Russia and many former euro eastern block countries. I think the blame there is twofold. The neolib shock of overnight complete liberalization was retarded. Firms in those countries were not ready, they needed to be sheltered and slowing transitioned to being able to be competitive (like China and Japan before had done). The other part is internal corruption.

But anywho, to the point of whether we should be fans of Western dominance or not to me is really a question about alternatives. Personally, I mainly just care about a liberal and democratic ideology prevaling. I don’t see much roots of it outside the West and in the West itself it seems to be fading. Alternative ideologies, the prevaling one on the ascent seems to be nationalism and protectionism, don’t appeal to me in the least. I think that inevitably leads to conflict. Or at the very least a strong reduction in cooperation and correlated decrease in global weath and welfare.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10673 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:07 am

Easily defensible land fellas, better get some soon
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10674 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:23 am

Slick Nick wrote:You can blame it on Trump, but the reality is that the power of the US has been fading a lot in the last 15 years (see global trade figures, failures in recent military adventures, etc).. it's not as assertive as it used to be and it's about time to reconsider the way states deal with each other. That's Russia's objective in disrupting the monolithic block that the West has become in the past 15 years.. not destroying it's values or democracy.


This seems to ignore the methods Russia has deployed to achieve these goals ... eroding western values and democracy. It's no accident that Russia is consistently connected to international political groups/individuals that are less invested in liberal democracy ... that works in their favor. Engaging in supporting nativist groups in the US, Britain, France, etc. that will weaken support for international action is a indirect attack on western values and democracy.

So, sure, we can sanitize that to a desire for a multipolar world, but achieving that requires action--sewing division in the international community!
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10675 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:30 am

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


He’s saying it’s unipolar. I agree, but further think the West used that (since WWII in much of the world and since the early 90s in the communist block) to impose a semi rules based multilateral trade system that has greatly benefited many regions of the world (notably China, southeast Asia and India to a lesser extent. That has lead to an awesome reduction in poverty in those countries, which is what I qualify as a somewhat rules based international sustem that has done wonders for the world. The story is less rosy in Russia and many former euro eastern block countries. I think the blame there is twofold. The neolib shock of overnight complete liberalization was retarded. Firms in those countries were not ready, they needed to be sheltered and slowing transitioned to being able to be competitive (like China and Japan before had done). The other part is internal corruption.

But anywho, to the point of whether we should be fans of Western dominance or not to me is really a question about alternatives. Personally, I mainly just care about a liberal and democratic ideology prevaling. I don’t see much roots of it outside the West and in the West itself it seems to be fading. Alternative ideologies, the prevaling one on the ascent seems to be nationalism and protectionism, don’t appeal to me in the least. I think that inevitably leads to conflict. Or at the very least a strong reduction in cooperation and correlated decrease in global weath and welfare.


Fucking Baby Boomers, man.

Yeah, this stuff strikes me as similar to the problem of both sidesism journalism. A multipolar world with greater international equity is an undeniable good (reduces tensions, increases cooperation, etc.). But multipolarism as a goal should not lose sight of the pros and cons. The West is far from perfect and across the board has done a terrible job of self examination--US has a major party fully in control of federal government that refuses to doubt national exceptionalism. That being said, I see very little appealing about systems outside the West. I don't think Russia has much run as far as modeling future society ... but the Chinese model, particularly in Asia, very well could define society for a huge number of people and that is not so great. The abdication of involvement there by Trump with his TPP decision is going to have huge, long-term consequences.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10676 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:40 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10677 by chicpea » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:21 am

In every photo I've seen of them seated together (2), Trudeau has his legs politely together while Trump acts like an ape on the bus taking up three seats. This is inconsequential, but interesting for the people here (pordre and dojtor cee) who have done theses on male body language in urban settings.

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10678 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:30 am

The handshake contests with Macron are pretty great.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10679 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:42 am

ITS A POWER MOVE CHICPEA. Look at trudeau holding his hands, he wants his mommy.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10680 by senate » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:47 am

If the Singapore summit fails, it is all Trudeau's fault.





Also, kudos to Kudrow for getting drunk before noon on a Sunday.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10681 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:50 am

i mean look at dis shit

You may not have noticed but when you feel strong and confident, the space between your fingers grows making your hands more territorial. When you feel insecure, that space disappears, in fact, you may find yourself tucking your thumbs under your fingers when under a lot of stress.

· When you feel confident, your thumbs will rise more often as you speak, especially if your fingers are intertwined in front of you.

· You will steeple your fingers (fingertips together like a church steeple) more often when confident but it will vanish the moment you lack confidence or have insecurities.

· Steepling is important to get your point across that you feel strongly about what you are saying, it is probably the most powerful display of confidence that we possess.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10682 by chicpea » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:53 am

To add to Senate's posts above...

Peter Navarro on Fox, Sunday, June 10, 2018:

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad faith diplomacy with Donald J Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door."


As a primer, this is a WH official speaking about their closest ally.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10683 by mayoradamwest » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:59 am

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


He’s saying it’s unipolar. I agree, but further think the West used that (since WWII...


Trump seems to really appeal to people who want to re-argue the big debates. He acts as if he’s starting from scratch on all files because he doesn’t understand the evolution of these processes post Bretton Woods - and even before that. The questions trump raises are basic, starting point level Questions - for example, should we trade with other nations?

Trump is projecting that he is willing to go back to the starting point on all issues because he doesn’t know a thing about how the liberal-democratic system has been entrenched with the USA as the central player which unquestionably benefits that nation.

Trump can only see the drawbacks, and has no knowledge of the pragmatic and evolution of trade and international relations post world war 2. It’s not that there aren’t a lot of problems with the global system, there are many. But petulantly ignoring everything because it plays well to people who don’t understand or know about how the system works either.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10684 by mayoradamwest » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:01 am

chicpea wrote:To add to Senate's posts above...

Peter Navarro on Fox, Sunday, June 10, 2018:

"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad faith diplomacy with Donald J Trump and then tries to stab him in the back on the way out the door."


As a primer, this is a WH official speaking about their closest ally.


Take that Canada.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10685 by clawfirst » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:18 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:i mean look at dis shit

You may not have noticed but when you feel strong and confident, the space between your fingers grows making your hands more territorial. When you feel insecure, that space disappears, in fact, you may find yourself tucking your thumbs under your fingers when under a lot of stress.

· When you feel confident, your thumbs will rise more often as you speak, especially if your fingers are intertwined in front of you.

· You will steeple your fingers (fingertips together like a church steeple) more often when confident but it will vanish the moment you lack confidence or have insecurities.

· Steepling is important to get your point across that you feel strongly about what you are saying, it is probably the most powerful display of confidence that we possess.

All well documented powerful body language technique. Its trained and fake. Donald has no idea whats actually going on. Hes an actor.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10686 by WTF » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:42 pm

clawfirst wrote:
PredsFan77 wrote:i mean look at dis shit

You may not have noticed but when you feel strong and confident, the space between your fingers grows making your hands more territorial. When you feel insecure, that space disappears, in fact, you may find yourself tucking your thumbs under your fingers when under a lot of stress.

· When you feel confident, your thumbs will rise more often as you speak, especially if your fingers are intertwined in front of you.

· You will steeple your fingers (fingertips together like a church steeple) more often when confident but it will vanish the moment you lack confidence or have insecurities.

· Steepling is important to get your point across that you feel strongly about what you are saying, it is probably the most powerful display of confidence that we possess.

All well documented powerful body language technique. Its trained and fake. Donald has no idea whats actually going on. Hes an actor.


He's too busy worrying about what to do with his tiny hands.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10687 by Dog » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:46 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:
Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


He’s saying it’s unipolar. I agree, but further think the West used that (since WWII...


Trump seems to really appeal to people who want to re-argue the big debates. He acts as if he’s starting from scratch on all files because he doesn’t understand the evolution of these processes post Bretton Woods - and even before that. The questions trump raises are basic, starting point level Questions - for example, should we trade with other nations?

Trump is projecting that he is willing to go back to the starting point on all issues because he doesn’t know a thing about how the liberal-democratic system has been entrenched with the USA as the central player which unquestionably benefits that nation.

Trump can only see the drawbacks, and has no knowledge of the pragmatic and evolution of trade and international relations post world war 2. It’s not that there aren’t a lot of problems with the global system, there are many. But petulantly ignoring everything because it plays well to people who don’t understand or know about how the system works either.


Absolutely, good observation. You actually get that alot when negotiating with people that don’t have much prior experience in a field. They bring everything into question and you have to push them back into what is « market ». Now, that isn’t to say that we shouldn’t re-examine assumptions and things do evolve organically. But, alot of it is also just a waste of time as the consensus point is there for a reason -it’s the equilibrium point of many interracting forces. Some of it is fine to question when fundamentals change, but questionning and pushing on everything strains relationships to the max. Especially if approached as a zero sum game. If it’s done just because the other party needs to learn to get hem up to speed with why we are where we are, it’s pointless. When the biggest player in the game forgets how to play, it’s extremely unsettling.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10688 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:59 pm

Plus, one should be well informed before questioning the status quo. How do you arrive at good analysis when your logic is driven by emotion and ignorance?

Perhaps nowhere is this more obvious than in trade. Globalization carries immense macro advantages, but also creates acute micro pain (lost jobs, lower wages, etc.). The folks out of a job have good reason to be upset, but a leader of the whole economy needs to understand the full picture. I made the mistake the other day of wading into an industrial job discussion on Twitter the other day and got all these anecdotal responses that were blind to the big picture (industrial jobs have dropped precipitously in the past 40 odd years, and we simply cannot compete in term of labor cost).
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10689 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:01 pm

Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


It's not what I said. I do think that the world is largely a better place, but in some places (think Muslim world) it's considerably worse and it could be largely blamed on unilateral action by Washington. Also, the fact that the world is a better place now doesn't mean that it couldn't be an even better place if interests of 80% of the world were to be taken into consideration.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10690 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:21 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


It's not what I said. I do think that the world is largely a better place, but in some places (think Muslim world) it's considerably worse and it could be largely blamed on unilateral action by Washington. Also, the fact that the world is a better place now doesn't mean that it couldn't be an even better place if interests of 80% of the world were to be taken into consideration.


Europe shoulders significantly more responsibility for those regions than the US. Most of their problems stem from the first half of the 20th c., which predate major US influence.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10691 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:21 pm

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


He’s saying it’s unipolar. I agree, but further think the West used that (since WWII in much of the world and since the early 90s in the communist block) to impose a semi rules based multilateral trade system that has greatly benefited many regions of the world (notably China, southeast Asia and India to a lesser extent. That has lead to an awesome reduction in poverty in those countries, which is what I qualify as a somewhat rules based international sustem that has done wonders for the world. The story is less rosy in Russia and many former euro eastern block countries. I think the blame there is twofold. The neolib shock of overnight complete liberalization was retarded. Firms in those countries were not ready, they needed to be sheltered and slowing transitioned to being able to be competitive (like China and Japan before had done). The other part is internal corruption.

But anywho, to the point of whether we should be fans of Western dominance or not to me is really a question about alternatives. Personally, I mainly just care about a liberal and democratic ideology prevaling. I don’t see much roots of it outside the West and in the West itself it seems to be fading. Alternative ideologies, the prevaling one on the ascent seems to be nationalism and protectionism, don’t appeal to me in the least. I think that inevitably leads to conflict. Or at the very least a strong reduction in cooperation and correlated decrease in global weath and welfare.


One of the most interesting classes I took was about developmental theories. I'm of those who think that democracy can only be achieved through internal struggle rather than imposed from authority. It will take time but eventually most of the world will adopt the liberal democratic model. But for this to happen, you first need political stability, sustained economic growth, greater levels of education, etc. Whereas western neoliberal policies utterly failed in most of the world, China's approach has been very successful in Africa as it provides considerable investment and help to build infrastructures without interfering in internal political life. The result might not be a perfect democratic system, but it at least helped countries outside of perpetual political turmoil and abject povrety... and it's not like the Washington consensus has achieved any significant progress towards democracy in Latin America, Africa, the Arab world or in the Post Soviet states.

This being said, I think that West should continue promoting it's liberal and democratic ideas as it's truly the better system we've found thus far.. but in a less aggressive or dogmatic way, taking into consideration that not all cultures are equally ready to adopt liberal democracy and that some differences will be found across the wide range of cultures.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10692 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:30 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Hang on, are you seriously arguing that the world isn't a better place than in 1992?


He’s saying it’s unipolar. I agree, but further think the West used that (since WWII in much of the world and since the early 90s in the communist block) to impose a semi rules based multilateral trade system that has greatly benefited many regions of the world (notably China, southeast Asia and India to a lesser extent. That has lead to an awesome reduction in poverty in those countries, which is what I qualify as a somewhat rules based international sustem that has done wonders for the world. The story is less rosy in Russia and many former euro eastern block countries. I think the blame there is twofold. The neolib shock of overnight complete liberalization was retarded. Firms in those countries were not ready, they needed to be sheltered and slowing transitioned to being able to be competitive (like China and Japan before had done). The other part is internal corruption.

But anywho, to the point of whether we should be fans of Western dominance or not to me is really a question about alternatives. Personally, I mainly just care about a liberal and democratic ideology prevaling. I don’t see much roots of it outside the West and in the West itself it seems to be fading. Alternative ideologies, the prevaling one on the ascent seems to be nationalism and protectionism, don’t appeal to me in the least. I think that inevitably leads to conflict. Or at the very least a strong reduction in cooperation and correlated decrease in global weath and welfare.


One of the most interesting classes I took was about developmental theories. I'm of those who think that democracy can only be achieved through internal struggle rather than imposed from authority. It will take time but eventually most of the world will adopt the liberal democratic model. But for this to happen, you first need political stability, sustained economic growth, greater levels of education, etc. Whereas western neoliberal policies utterly failed in most of the world, China's approach has been very successful in Africa as it provides considerable investment and help to build infrastructures without interfering in internal political life. The result might not be a perfect democratic system, but it at least helped countries outside of perpetual political turmoil and abject povrety... and it's not like the Washington consensus has achieved any significant progress towards democracy in Latin America, Africa, the Arab world or in the Post Soviet states.

This being said, I think that West should continue promoting it's liberal and democratic ideas as it's truly the better system we've found thus far.. but in a less aggressive or dogmatic way, taking into consideration that not all cultures are equally ready to adopt liberal democracy and that some differences will be found across the wide range of cultures.


So, you have a Whiggish sense of history.

Question: if the US does not intervene in WWII, does liberal democracy survive in the "West"?

One could argue that the connection between liberal democracy and the West today is almost entirely due to the fact that the most powerful country economically and militarily ... happened to possess liberal democratic values. There were alternatives.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10693 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:51 pm

jester wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:You can blame it on Trump, but the reality is that the power of the US has been fading a lot in the last 15 years (see global trade figures, failures in recent military adventures, etc).. it's not as assertive as it used to be and it's about time to reconsider the way states deal with each other. That's Russia's objective in disrupting the monolithic block that the West has become in the past 15 years.. not destroying it's values or democracy.


This seems to ignore the methods Russia has deployed to achieve these goals ... eroding western values and democracy. It's no accident that Russia is consistently connected to international political groups/individuals that are less invested in liberal democracy ... that works in their favor. Engaging in supporting nativist groups in the US, Britain, France, etc. that will weaken support for international action is a indirect attack on western values and democracy.

So, sure, we can sanitize that to a desire for a multipolar world, but achieving that requires action--sewing division in the international community!


You're seeing it in reverse Jester. Russia works with those who voice support for better relations with her, without much discernment for their political ideologies. But it also hope for a world where individual states have more autonomy to negotiate bilateral deals, rather than following a one block direction imposed from Washington. Very few states have this ability, see how Washington imposed it's line on the South stream pipeline that ended up depriving Bulgaria of significant revenues and all of southern Europe of greater energetic security, vs Germany, that is building the North Stream pipeline, disregarding America's grievances.

Also, the Russian interference in Western political affairs has been a gross exaggeration and largely a scapegoat for the failures of it's system and policies... Trump, Brexit, FN, Italy's turn to the right, have very little to do with twitter trolling and Facebook ads... and very much with the stagnating wages, increasing inequalities, bank bailouts, oligarchic economic structure, stupid wars that lead to refugee crises, political elitism, fast paced change in demographics, etc.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10694 by mayoradamwest » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:55 pm

Dog wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
Dog wrote:
He’s saying it’s unipolar. I agree, but further think the West used that (since WWII...


Trump seems to really appeal to people who want to re-argue the big debates. He acts as if he’s starting from scratch on all files because he doesn’t understand the evolution of these processes post Bretton Woods - and even before that. The questions trump raises are basic, starting point level Questions - for example, should we trade with other nations?

Trump is projecting that he is willing to go back to the starting point on all issues because he doesn’t know a thing about how the liberal-democratic system has been entrenched with the USA as the central player which unquestionably benefits that nation.

Trump can only see the drawbacks, and has no knowledge of the pragmatic and evolution of trade and international relations post world war 2. It’s not that there aren’t a lot of problems with the global system, there are many. But petulantly ignoring everything because it plays well to people who don’t understand or know about how the system works either.


Absolutely, good observation. You actually get that alot when negotiating with people that don’t have much prior experience in a field. They bring everything into question and you have to push them back into what is « market ». Now, that isn’t to say that we shouldn’t re-examine assumptions and things do evolve organically. But, alot of it is also just a waste of time as the consensus point is there for a reason -it’s the equilibrium point of many interracting forces. Some of it is fine to question when fundamentals change, but questionning and pushing on everything strains relationships to the max. Especially if approached as a zero sum game. If it’s done just because the other party needs to learn to get hem up to speed with why we are where we are, it’s pointless. When the biggest player in the game forgets how to play, it’s extremely unsettling.


The nature of his complaints allows others to project onto him as well. I would readily agree that there are a lot of problems with the international order. It's just that, my complaints aren't trumps complaints. I remember during the election period some in the Canadian union movement supported Trump in his call to renegotiate NAFTA - as if Trump's idea of an arrangement would help them.

He is like someone learning on the fly though. First he is utterly protective - I won't trade with any of you... Then he proposes going tariff free, as if he got to the point about why his first idea was bad so this must be the only other option..

Everyone really needs a reminder about the evolution of international bureaucracy, but that's boring and hey we are onto NK anyways amirite?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10695 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:56 pm

jester wrote:
So, you have a Whiggish sense of history.

Question: if the US does not intervene in WWII, does liberal democracy survive in the "West"?

One could argue that the connection between liberal democracy and the West today is almost entirely due to the fact that the most powerful country economically and militarily ... happened to possess liberal democratic values. There were alternatives.


I'm not underestimating the West's positive influence on the world... I'm saying that most of it's efforts in the last 30 years have failed to produce positive outcomes and that a multi-polar world (think G20 vs G7, or reform of the UN security council) might produce better results.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10696 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:59 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:You can blame it on Trump, but the reality is that the power of the US has been fading a lot in the last 15 years (see global trade figures, failures in recent military adventures, etc).. it's not as assertive as it used to be and it's about time to reconsider the way states deal with each other. That's Russia's objective in disrupting the monolithic block that the West has become in the past 15 years.. not destroying it's values or democracy.


This seems to ignore the methods Russia has deployed to achieve these goals ... eroding western values and democracy. It's no accident that Russia is consistently connected to international political groups/individuals that are less invested in liberal democracy ... that works in their favor. Engaging in supporting nativist groups in the US, Britain, France, etc. that will weaken support for international action is a indirect attack on western values and democracy.

So, sure, we can sanitize that to a desire for a multipolar world, but achieving that requires action--sewing division in the international community!


You're seeing it in reverse Jester. Russia works with those who voice support for better relations with her, without much discernment for their political ideologies. But it also hope for a world where individual states have more autonomy to negotiate bilateral deals, rather than following a one block direction imposed from Washington. Very few states have this ability, see how Washington imposed it's line on the South stream pipeline that ended up depriving Bulgaria of significant revenues and all of southern Europe of greater energetic security, vs Germany, that is building the North Stream pipeline, disregarding America's grievances.

Also, the Russian interference in Western political affairs has been a gross exaggeration and largely a scapegoat for the failures of it's system and policies... Trump, Brexit, FN, Italy's turn to the right, have very little to do with twitter trolling and Facebook ads... and very much with the stagnating wages, increasing inequalities, bank bailouts, oligarchic economic structure, stupid wars that lead to refugee crises, political elitism, fast paced change in demographics, etc.


Yes, Russia is prodding internal dynamics to their advantage ... internal dynamics that are generally operating against liberal democratic values, and broad international alignment that stymies Russian interests. It is an entirely rational and understandable approach, but lets call a spade a spade. They aren't meeting with these people, giving them indirect support through hacks, etc. in goodwill towards the liberal democratic international order of the West. Case in point. Trump is irrelevant to Russian interests, but a chaotic and dysfunctional political situation in the US is very much in its interests. So, you put out crap about Jill Stein to hurt Clinton.

Russia is operating very much like a 19th c. practitioner of real politik. That in itself is instructive ... there's a reason the international community moved away from a system built upon bilateral deals. It ended in fucking disaster.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10697 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:05 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:
So, you have a Whiggish sense of history.

Question: if the US does not intervene in WWII, does liberal democracy survive in the "West"?

One could argue that the connection between liberal democracy and the West today is almost entirely due to the fact that the most powerful country economically and militarily ... happened to possess liberal democratic values. There were alternatives.


I'm not underestimating the West's positive influence on the world... I'm saying that most of it's efforts in the last 30 years have failed to produce positive outcomes and that a multi-polar world (think G20 vs G7, or reform of the UN security council) might produce better results.


30 years is a pretty short window, don't you think? It's also worth noting: one of the more remarkable events in recent history is that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a relatively peaceful event. The past 30 years could have been much, much worse.

And, yeah, reforming the UN security council would produce a more democratic institution ... but, and this is a big but, I see little evidence that would lead to better outcomes. The UN is a mess even before you get to the security council, so I am dubious of the benefit derived from empowering other countries there.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10698 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:07 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:The nature of his complaints allows others to project onto him as well. I would readily agree that there are a lot of problems with the international order. It's just that, my complaints aren't trumps complaints. I remember during the election period some in the Canadian union movement supported Trump in his call to renegotiate NAFTA - as if Trump's idea of an arrangement would help them.

He is like someone learning on the fly though. First he is utterly protective - I won't trade with any of you... Then he proposes going tariff free, as if he got to the point about why his first idea was bad so this must be the only other option..

Everyone really needs a reminder about the evolution of international bureaucracy, but that's boring and hey we are onto NK anyways amirite?


I would assume at this point most of the international community has worked out that he literally does not give a shit about them.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10699 by mayoradamwest » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:09 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:
So, you have a Whiggish sense of history.

Question: if the US does not intervene in WWII, does liberal democracy survive in the "West"?

One could argue that the connection between liberal democracy and the West today is almost entirely due to the fact that the most powerful country economically and militarily ... happened to possess liberal democratic values. There were alternatives.


I'm not underestimating the West's positive influence on the world... I'm saying that most of it's efforts in the last 30 years have failed to produce positive outcomes and that a multi-polar world (think G20 vs G7, or reform of the UN security council) might produce better results.


As a fan of silly points, I like that one. A tripolar world might also produce better results, so might a unipolar world with different social-economic-political factors.

Talk about whatever you want, but to me this is too focused again on big theoretical questions which really isn't what drives the next decision. I mean, it's an interesting theoretical debate about history but to me it bogs down the important questions of the moment (which amount to: given where we are, what next?)

I'm dragging you into my line of thought so apologies, but I've been thinking about how public debates work. As long as we endlessly harp on the big issues, we can't make the small, pragmatic, incremental steps necessary. Change happens Through small, pragmatic, Increm tal steps most of the time but we love endlessly debating ideal types instead.

/ramble
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10700 by mayoradamwest » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:11 pm

jester wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:The nature of his complaints allows others to project onto him as well. I would readily agree that there are a lot of problems with the international order. It's just that, my complaints aren't trumps complaints. I remember during the election period some in the Canadian union movement supported Trump in his call to renegotiate NAFTA - as if Trump's idea of an arrangement would help them.

He is like someone learning on the fly though. First he is utterly protective - I won't trade with any of you... Then he proposes going tariff free, as if he got to the point about why his first idea was bad so this must be the only other option..

Everyone really needs a reminder about the evolution of international bureaucracy, but that's boring and hey we are onto NK anyways amirite?


I would assume at this point most of the international community has worked out that he literally does not give a shit about them.


I would think. Why his voters haven't figured out the equivalent thought is something though.

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