Murrica: fuck yeah

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Slick Nick
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10701 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:15 pm

jester wrote:
Yes, Russia is prodding internal dynamics to their advantage ... internal dynamics that are generally operating against liberal democratic values, and broad international alignment that stymies Russian interests. It is an entirely rational and understandable approach, but lets call a spade a spade. They aren't meeting with these people, giving them indirect support through hacks, etc. in goodwill towards the liberal democratic international order of the West. Case in point. Trump is irrelevant to Russian interests, but a chaotic and dysfunctional political situation in the US is very much in its interests. So, you put out crap about Jill Stein to hurt Clinton.

Russia is operating very much like a 19th c. practitioner of real politik. That in itself is instructive ... there's a reason the international community moved away from a system built upon bilateral deals. It ended in fucking disaster.


Is it in liberal and democratic values to disregard international law to bomb sovereign states, overthrow unfriendly regimes or use economic sanctions against non aligned states, ever expend military presence around the globe? If yes, then maybe you have a point.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10702 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:28 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:
Yes, Russia is prodding internal dynamics to their advantage ... internal dynamics that are generally operating against liberal democratic values, and broad international alignment that stymies Russian interests. It is an entirely rational and understandable approach, but lets call a spade a spade. They aren't meeting with these people, giving them indirect support through hacks, etc. in goodwill towards the liberal democratic international order of the West. Case in point. Trump is irrelevant to Russian interests, but a chaotic and dysfunctional political situation in the US is very much in its interests. So, you put out crap about Jill Stein to hurt Clinton.

Russia is operating very much like a 19th c. practitioner of real politik. That in itself is instructive ... there's a reason the international community moved away from a system built upon bilateral deals. It ended in fucking disaster.


Is it in liberal and democratic values to disregard international law to bomb sovereign states, overthrow unfriendly regimes or use economic sanctions against non aligned states, ever expend military presence around the globe? If yes, then maybe you have a point.


That's a dodge, and you know it.

And the answer is yes, it can be in their interest to do those things. Should the US have violated sovereignty and taken out Bin Laden in advance of 9/11 given the opportunity? (Of course, the very idea of "international law" is flawed.)
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10703 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:36 pm

"Liberal democratic international order of the West" is a nice sounding, self congratulatory concept used to justify Western hegemony and to otherize countries that resist it.

Western countries, led by the United States, sell weapons to the Saudis who have been bombing Yemen to bits. They also support Israel, a settler-colonial state. They sanction and destabilize countries all the time through state and privatized interference. They promote laissez-faire economic policies that strip away social programs and champion the privatization of education. The West has too many internal contradictions to deserve such rosy branding and remains economically expansionist and ruthless.

The Pinker-esque "life is getting better argument" is also very flawed and relies too much on selective use of statistics: https://patternsofmeaning.com/2018/05/1 ... -show-why/
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10704 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:39 pm

jester wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:
Yes, Russia is prodding internal dynamics to their advantage ... internal dynamics that are generally operating against liberal democratic values, and broad international alignment that stymies Russian interests. It is an entirely rational and understandable approach, but lets call a spade a spade. They aren't meeting with these people, giving them indirect support through hacks, etc. in goodwill towards the liberal democratic international order of the West. Case in point. Trump is irrelevant to Russian interests, but a chaotic and dysfunctional political situation in the US is very much in its interests. So, you put out crap about Jill Stein to hurt Clinton.

Russia is operating very much like a 19th c. practitioner of real politik. That in itself is instructive ... there's a reason the international community moved away from a system built upon bilateral deals. It ended in fucking disaster.


Is it in liberal and democratic values to disregard international law to bomb sovereign states, overthrow unfriendly regimes or use economic sanctions against non aligned states, ever expend military presence around the globe? If yes, then maybe you have a point.


That's a dodge, and you know it.

And the answer is yes, it can be in their interest to do those things. Should the US have violated sovereignty and taken out Bin Laden in advance of 9/11 given the opportunity? (Of course, the very idea of "international law" is flawed.)


Maybe it shouldn't have created it in the first place

:wink:

What you're doing is taking a whole bunch of wrongdoing and hiding it behind positive concepts such as liberalism and democracy. What Russia seeks to disrupt is not the rule of law, the civil society, the independent institutions, the human rights, etc, in the West, as the sore losers of the recent elections present it, but rather the unilateralism of a handful officials somewhere in Washington, and to promote the terrible idea that maybe Russia but also Brazil, Iran, Nigeria and Turkey among others should have a say in international affairs.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10705 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:45 pm

jester wrote:This seems to ignore the methods Russia has deployed to achieve these goals ... eroding western values and democracy.


Crazy idea, but maybe the US is eroding itself, through its own internal, historically-rooted contradictions. Maybe Trump isn't a Russian creation, but a completely American one.

Maybe - gasp - US isn't really a democracy, but something closer to a plutocracy and Russia has done nothing to effect this.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10706 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:51 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
jester wrote:This seems to ignore the methods Russia has deployed to achieve these goals ... eroding western values and democracy.


Crazy idea, but maybe the US is eroding itself, through its own internal, historically-rooted contradictions. Maybe Trump isn't a Russian creation, but a completely American one.

Maybe - gasp - US isn't really a democracy, but something closer to a plutocracy and Russia has done nothing to effect this.


Yawn.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10707 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:54 pm

jester wrote:Yawn.


Try reading something other than Nick Kristof for a change.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10708 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:03 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Is it in liberal and democratic values to disregard international law to bomb sovereign states, overthrow unfriendly regimes or use economic sanctions against non aligned states, ever expend military presence around the globe? If yes, then maybe you have a point.


That's a dodge, and you know it.

And the answer is yes, it can be in their interest to do those things. Should the US have violated sovereignty and taken out Bin Laden in advance of 9/11 given the opportunity? (Of course, the very idea of "international law" is flawed.)


Maybe it shouldn't have created it in the first place

:wink:

What you're doing is taking a whole bunch of wrongdoing and hiding it behind positive concepts such as liberalism and democracy. What Russia seeks to disrupt is not the rule of law, the civil society, the independent institutions, the human rights, etc, in the West, as the sore losers of the recent elections present it, but rather the unilateralism of a handful officials somewhere in Washington, and to promote the terrible idea that maybe Russia but also Brazil, Iran, Nigeria and Turkey among others should have a say in international affairs.


Not really, what I’m speaking to is a messy international world where altruism is in limited supply. Russia, Putin more specifically, yearns for a return to its international position during the Soviet era. That’s understandable. I don’t buy for a moment that he actually gives a shit about Brazil, Iran, Nigeria, and Turkey. And, for what it’s worth, I’m not particularly interested in folks like Erdogan (or Putin) having more international influence.

Russia ain’t a white knight. There are no white knights.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10709 by jester » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:04 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
jester wrote:Yawn.


Try reading something other than Nick Kristof for a change.


Won’t be hard, I don’t read NYT opinion section. Cool burn attempt, though.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10710 by mayoradamwest » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:08 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:"Liberal democratic international order of the West" is a nice sounding, self congratulatory concept used to justify.../


I just use the term liberal democratic order myself. I mean, if we were talking post Bretton woods then yes it’s a western centric viewpoint but I don’t see why it can’t also be a descriptive term....

I’m not going to disagree with you on the downsides, but I don’t think pointing out it exists (in context of G7 summit) means you support the human rights abuses.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10711 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:18 pm

jester wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
jester wrote:
That's a dodge, and you know it.

And the answer is yes, it can be in their interest to do those things. Should the US have violated sovereignty and taken out Bin Laden in advance of 9/11 given the opportunity? (Of course, the very idea of "international law" is flawed.)


Maybe it shouldn't have created it in the first place

:wink:

What you're doing is taking a whole bunch of wrongdoing and hiding it behind positive concepts such as liberalism and democracy. What Russia seeks to disrupt is not the rule of law, the civil society, the independent institutions, the human rights, etc, in the West, as the sore losers of the recent elections present it, but rather the unilateralism of a handful officials somewhere in Washington, and to promote the terrible idea that maybe Russia but also Brazil, Iran, Nigeria and Turkey among others should have a say in international affairs.


Not really, what I’m speaking to is a messy international world where altruism is in limited supply. Russia, Putin more specifically, yearns for a return to its international position during the Soviet era. That’s understandable. I don’t buy for a moment that he actually gives a shit about Brazil, Iran, Nigeria, and Turkey. And, for what it’s worth, I’m not particularly interested in folks like Erdogan (or Putin) having more international influence.

Russia ain’t a white knight. There are no white knights.


Whether Russia gives a shit about those countries is irrelevant, as much as your appreciation of Putin or Erdogan. The world is changing, so you have two choices, either face it and start building a new order or drawn in conspiracy theories about how da ebul Rusikes want to destroy democracy and liberal values with Facebook banners.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10712 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:25 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10713 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:13 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:"Liberal democratic international order of the West" is a nice sounding, self congratulatory concept used to justify.../


I just use the term liberal democratic order myself. I mean, if we were talking post Bretton woods then yes it’s a western centric viewpoint but I don’t see why it can’t also be a descriptive term....

I’m not going to disagree with you on the downsides, but I don’t think pointing out it exists (in context of G7 summit) means you support the human rights abuses.


It is the framing the US relies upon when it commits despicable acts. For example, Trump's and Pence's calls for sanctions and military interference in Venezuela are not viewed as problematic in the mainstream media because it simply does not seem controversial that anyone in the world would be opposed to the injection of freedom and liberal democracy. The words themselves justify the aggression.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10714 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:20 pm

Slick Nick wrote:Whether Russia gives a shit about those countries is irrelevant, as much as your appreciation of Putin or Erdogan. The world is changing, so you have two choices, either face it and start building a new order or drawn in conspiracy theories about how da ebul Rusikes want to destroy democracy and liberal values with Facebook banners.


Have you read Keith Gessen's piece on US's Russia hands? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/maga ... oglio.html

It's good.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10715 by mayoradamwest » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:31 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:"Liberal democratic international order of the West" is a nice sounding, self congratulatory concept used to justify.../


I just use the term liberal democratic order myself. I mean, if we were talking post Bretton woods then yes it’s a western centric viewpoint but I don’t see why it can’t also be a descriptive term....

I’m not going to disagree with you on the downsides, but I don’t think pointing out it exists (in context of G7 summit) means you support the human rights abuses.


It is the framing the US relies upon when it commits despicable acts. For example, Trump's and Pence's calls for sanctions and military interference in Venezuela are not viewed as problematic in the mainstream media because it simply does not seem controversial that anyone in the world would be opposed to the injection of freedom and liberal democracy. The words themselves justify the aggression.


I don’t agree, but that’s fine.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10716 by Slick Nick » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:11 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:Whether Russia gives a shit about those countries is irrelevant, as much as your appreciation of Putin or Erdogan. The world is changing, so you have two choices, either face it and start building a new order or drawn in conspiracy theories about how da ebul Rusikes want to destroy democracy and liberal values with Facebook banners.


Have you read Keith Gessen's piece on US's Russia hands? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/maga ... oglio.html

It's good.


Just read it, was indeed a good piece.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10717 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:19 pm

Hey yo
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10718 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:18 am

which of you tree huggers are staying up to watch the summit?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10719 by Susf » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:02 am

PredsFan77 wrote:which of you tree huggers are staying up to watch the summit?



what?

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10720 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:38 pm

wtf

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10721 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:47 pm

Blame canada
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10722 by senate » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:55 pm

A long-term coke user having heart trouble in old age? The human body truly is a mystery.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10723 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:56 pm

Image
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10724 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:05 pm

Peace in our time!
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10725 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:25 pm

Just woke up from a long coma. What is this?

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10726 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:27 pm

He’s on cnn now with that tshirt.


This level of surrealness.....it’s like.....so surreal....
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10727 by clawfirst » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:31 pm

Rodman is kicking dicks in here. There is no bad way to spin this event now. Trump wins
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10728 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:31 pm

He’s crying on cnn now.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10729 by clawfirst » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:32 pm

And...
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10730 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:32 pm

holy fuck
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10731 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:32 pm

WHAT DA FUCK AM I WATCHING???!
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10732 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:35 pm

Rodman doesn’t want to say if Kim understands English.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10733 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:35 pm

This is way up there in terms of the weirdest shit ever....
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10734 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:36 pm

is rodman making this shit up?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10735 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:39 pm

potcoin shoutout
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10736 by clawfirst » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:40 pm

Well HE clearly believes everything hes saying. And thats gonna be enough in this chapter of make believe.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10737 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:20 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10738 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:22 pm

Wearing a potcoin.com tshirt.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10739 by senate » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:23 pm

I wonder what political satire will look like in the future. Probably something like Tim and Eric or the Eric Andre Show.

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10740 by Dog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:29 pm

What’s the over/under on Kim coming out the that session wearing a MAGA hat?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10741 by mooseOAK » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:52 pm



Imagine students barricaded in classrooms with no way to escape. The shooter is roaming the hallways. The only exit is the door to the hallway. If students tried to escape via the hallway, they could be greatly at risk.

Outside the school building, police could roll up these water cannons and quickly punch holes in the walls of every classroom providing large escape holes.

If students have been wounded, first responders can use the hole to accelerate access to medical care.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10742 by Susf » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:03 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10743 by Susf » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:06 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10744 by PredsFan77 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:42 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10745 by Dog » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:00 am

I still don’t know what to make of this. I don’t believe in any type of actual comprehensive nuclear and balistic misile disarmament from Nk, but think relations should be normalized (somewhat) regardless. I don’t know if that option is on the table (with makeup put on it) or whether this is leading right to a grave showdown if they actually expect disarmament and NK doesn’t fully comply.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10746 by Susf » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:08 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10747 by chicpea » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:16 am

While I would be happy to see a pause in the destructive nature of brinkmanship on the peninsula (no one wants to see Seoul in a fiery ball; I have a lot of friends and loved ones there), I cannot for the life of me fathom what advantage disarmament does for either side militarily - and that's what it comes down to usually.

NK disarming leaves them extremely weak and likely dependent upon the aid that will come with the dismantling. The US withdrawing all its troops, otoh, hands the peninsula and the entire Eastern Front to China, among other things.

I just don't see it.

That said, talking is better than threatening. And if Pompeo has climbed down from his ultimatum of immediate and complete disarmament, we will have a long period of stalemate, which is better than constant nuclear taunting, but much the same as has been the past ten years.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10748 by Dog » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:19 am

Trudeau’s insolence will carry a heavy fine:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-t ... -1.4702197

That ought to teach non nuclear countries not to talk back to dear leader.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10749 by Susf » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:38 am

chicpea wrote:While I would be happy to see a pause in the destructive nature of brinkmanship on the peninsula (no one wants to see Seoul in a fiery ball; I have a lot of friends and loved ones there), I cannot for the life of me fathom what advantage disarmament does for either side militarily - and that's what it comes down to usually.

NK disarming leaves them extremely weak and likely dependent upon the aid that will come with the dismantling. The US withdrawing all its troops, otoh, hands the peninsula and the entire Eastern Front to China, among other things.

I just don't see it.

That said, talking is better than threatening. And if Pompeo has climbed down from his ultimatum of immediate and complete disarmament, we will have a long period of stalemate, which is better than constant nuclear taunting, but much the same as has been the past ten years.


I agree with this. It's just a little too early to see what comes from this. Trump offering Kim "hotels and condos" is incredible. He doesn't even try to hide his attempts to personally cash in on America's national security with a nuclear armed North Korea while invoking national security with Canada on trade. What an absolute joke. Mattis and Dunford are two great men. I trust them so we'll have to wait and see what unfolds.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10750 by senate » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:21 am

Dog wrote:Trudeau’s insolence will carry a heavy fine:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-t ... -1.4702197

That ought to teach non nuclear countries not to talk back to dear leader.



There is a special place in hell for people who say they won't let Trump push them around?

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