Ukraine: da

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #851 by Slick Nick » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:06 am

Nice kid. I wish Malorossia was ruled by people like this instead of nationalist and oligarchic scumbags.

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #852 by Dr_Chimera » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:53 am

He shouldn't speak in the tongue of the enemy.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #853 by Slick Nick » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:03 pm

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #854 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:48 pm

What's this? A Maidan against a US-installed puppet government? Can we get the New York times on this?

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #855 by Craig » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:26 pm

Well if some say it, it's good enough for me!
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #856 by Slick Nick » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Nah, I believe they're simply celebrating democracy again.



0:39 democratic khokhol really mad at a moskal plant.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #857 by Slick Nick » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:57 pm

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #858 by Slick Nick » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:35 pm



:donger:
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #859 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:53 am

LOL, David Duke got his PhD in Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #860 by Dog » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:19 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:LOL, David Duke got his PhD in Ukraine.


Yes, if we mean received an honorary Ph.D. from a non-accredited fringe institution founded in 1989 and singled out by the State department as an anti-Semite hotbed. I take it they like Duke and gave him an honorary Ph.D.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #861 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:49 am

Dog wrote:I take it they like Duke and gave him an honorary Ph.D.


You do?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #862 by Dog » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:27 pm

I do.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #863 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:21 pm

Speaking of this "fringe" institution ("Maup"), it is the country's largest "private" university. And at the time David Duke received his PhD there (2005), its board of directors included Viktor Yushchenko (Ukraine's president).

Maup was considered to be a respectable institution in Ukraine up until around 2005/2006, when Yushchenko and Tarasiuk were pressured to leave.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #864 by Dog » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:27 pm

Wikipedia tells me it has over 50,000 students accross the country, so yeah fringe was not accurate. Same article also says it was stripped of its accreditation by court order in 2006. Don't know what that was about, but how does a non accredited school have so many students?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #865 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:29 pm

I wonder that too. Maybe one goes there strictly for the prestige.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #866 by Dog » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:32 pm

I'm thinking they are all racist. It being Ukraine and all.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #867 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:39 pm

Dog wrote:I'm thinking they are all racist. It being Ukraine and all.


Maybe you and Slick Nick should co-author a newsletter.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #868 by Dog » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:49 pm

But seriously, that an institution with 50,000 students gives David Duke an honorary Ph.D. is eyebrow raising stuff.

Then again, that the likely republican presidential candidate gives David Duke a dog whistle shout out isn't much better.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #869 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:55 pm

Duke claims that his PhD is not honorary, and that he painstakingly wrote a dissertation on "Jewish supremacy", with the supervision of certain Ukrainian scholars. I don't want to besmirch the good name of David Duke, so I will take his word for it.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #870 by Slick Nick » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:48 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:
Dog wrote:I'm thinking they are all racist. It being Ukraine and all.


Maybe you and Slick Nick should co-author a newsletter.


From all the gathered information I'm apparently mostly ukrainian....... that explains a lot.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #871 by Dog » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:39 am

Isn't that what all those Russians fighting in eastern Ukraine say?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #872 by Slick Nick » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:58 am

Dog wrote:Isn't that what all those Russians fighting in eastern Ukraine say?


You mean western Russia right?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #873 by Dog » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:06 pm

Eastern Natoland.

:crossarms:
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #874 by Slick Nick » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:18 pm

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #875 by Slick Nick » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:19 am

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #876 by edgar_dong » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:33 am

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #877 by Slick Nick » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:48 am



Democracy intensifies.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #878 by Dog » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:35 pm

+rep
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #879 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:56 pm

Remember when US's favorite dissidents were Sakharov and Solzhenitsyn, and not Ukrainian fascists?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #880 by Sturminator » Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:45 pm

The part where he says "shit, nigga..." at the end is particularly shameless. Beautiful.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #881 by Slick Nick » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:17 pm

It's funny how the refugee crisis predates the russian military intervention by 3 to 5 years yet it's Putin who masterplanned the whole thing from his KGB office. That crisis has certainly nothing to do with the disastrous failures of the american/NATO foriegn policy in Afganistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria though.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #882 by Slick Nick » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:02 pm

Chaos Reigns wrote:You're right, Putin's intervention had absolutely zero, nothing whatsoever at all to do with increased flows of refugees. He is utterly blameless and didn't notice at all whatsoever it was destabilizing Eastern Europe. He even leant a hand to the refugee crisis by accepting many in, and offered solidarity to the liberal parties in Eastern Europe and Ukraine for the uptick in fascism and racism.


When did I say that Russia's intervention did not have consequences of migration? I'm just saying that your theory of Putin's evil plans to destroy Europe through Syria is based solely on farts and "muh Putin is a vampire" feelings. Russia recieved 800 000 Ukrainian refugees, apparantly fleeing the Russian aggression by asking Russia for shelter. Meanwhile, the US has plans to shelter a whole 10k of migrants .. how generous!! After all, the US had nothing to do with the toppeling of regimes in those countries that lead to the hell those people are fleeing.

Also, are you trying to say that Russia is supporting the far right/fascist factions in eastern Europe and Ukraine? I think you got a little mixed up with the EU and the US here, lad. Yes, Russia is supporting far right movements in western Europe for it's own purposes, I'm not in favor of that...
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #883 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:48 pm

Putin is doing a lot of questionable things. But I doubt he is bombing hospitals on purpose (in spite of what bellingcat claims). These kinds of accusations are laughable due to their presumption of pure evil (named Putin).

International actors tend to believe in the purity of their intentions, and morally rationalize the things they do. Putin's calculus is mainly two-fold: a) strengthen Assad before American capital gets its hands on Syria, b) become an indispensable player on the world stage.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #884 by Slick Nick » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:56 am

Just thought I would post this for our very confused friend who thinks eastern Ukraine has been "colonized" by the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

One of the most prominent Russians in the Medieval Ukraine (at that time Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was Ivan Fyodorov who published the Ostrog Bible and called himself a Muscovite.

In 1599 Tsar Boris Godunov ordered the construction of Tsareborisov on the banks of Oskol River, the first city and the first fortress in Eastern Ukraine. To defend the territory from Tatar raids the Russians built the Belgorod defensive line (1635–1658), and Ukrainians started fleeing to be under its defense.

More Russian speakers appeared in northern, central and eastern Ukrainian territories during the late 17th century, following the Cossack Rebellion led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky. The Uprising led to a massive movement of Ukrainian settlers to the Slobozhanschyna region, which converted it from a sparsely inhabited frontier area to one of the major populated regions of the Tsardom of Russia. Following the Treaty of Pereyaslav, Ukrainian Cossacks lands, including the modern northern and eastern parts of Ukraine became a protectorate of the into the Tsardom of Russia. This brought the first significant, but still small, wave of Russian settlers into central Ukraine (primarily several thousand soldiers stationed in garrisons,[3] out of a population of approximately 1.2 million non-Russians).[4]

At the end of the 18th century, the Russian Empire captured large uninhabited steppe territories from the former [b]Crimean Khanate. The systematic colonization of lands in what became known as Novorossiya (mainly Crimea, Taurida and around Odessa) began. Migrants from many ethnic groups (predominantly Ukrainians and Russians from Russia proper) came to this area.[5] At the same time the discovery of coal in the Donets Basin also marked the commencement of a large-scale industrialization and an influx of workers from other parts of the Russian Empire.

Nearly all of the major cities of the southern and eastern Ukraine were established in this period: Aleksandrovsk (now Zaporizhia; 1770), Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipropetrovsk; 1776), Kherson and Mariupol (1778), Sevastopol (1783), Simferopol and Novoaleksandrovka (Melitopol) (1784), Nikolayev (Mykolaiv; 1789), Odessa (1794), Lugansk (Luhansk; foundation of Luhansk plant in 1795).

Both Russians and Ukrainians made up the bulk of the migrants — 31.8% and 42.0% respectively.[citation needed] The population of Novorossiya eventually became intermixed, and with Russification being the state policy, the Russian identity dominated in mixed families and communities. The Russian Empire officially regarded Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians as Little, Great and White Russians, which, according to the theory officially accepted in the Imperial Russia, belonged to a single Russian nation, the descendants of the people of the Rus'.[citation needed]

In the beginning of the 20th century the Russians were the largest ethnic group in the following cities: Kiev (54,2%), Kharkov (63,1%), Odessa (49,09%), Nikolaev (66,33%), Mariupol (63,22%), Lugansk (68,16%), Berdiansk (66,05%), Kherson (47,21%), Melitopol (42,8%), Yekaterinoslav (41,78%), Yelisavetgrad (34,64%), Pavlograd (34,36%), Simferopol (45,64%), Feodosiya (46,84%), Yalta (66,17%), Kerch (57,8%), Sevastopol (63,46%), Cuguev (86%).[6]
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #885 by Sturminator » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:51 am

"The population of Novorossiya eventually became intermixed, and with Russification being the state policy, the Russian identity dominated in mixed families and communities."


Setting up and controlling colonies does not necessarily entail importing lots of bodies, although the Soviets did that, too, especially in Kharkiv, where the entire ruling class was imported from Russia, and the purges were frequent, deep and brutal. I probably would have been better off using the term "colonialism", though, as "colonization" strictly denotes migration, which was only one part of the process.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #886 by AD » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:27 am

Nick, you know I love you right.

But on this you're wrong. It takes about 2 hours to create differentiation in groups of people (based on genes, social status, or what type of mascara one prefers). Look at how long a perfectly homogeneous group can become violent when separated into artificial "guard" or "prisoner" groups.

Most modern nations are based on artificial constructs dating to the decolonization period.

You're pointing us to proof that these units have been separate for generations. National identity here is stronger than the vast majority of other places.

Or do you also believe the US and Canada should just merge already. And the Anschluss was just good governance? And all those Latinos around Brazil should just let go and join up.

Hell, I agree with open borders and the reduction of false nationalistic identities as much as the next guy, but this isn't the way to do it.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #887 by Slick Nick » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:20 pm

AD wrote:Nick, you know I love you right.

But on this you're wrong. It takes about 2 hours to create differentiation in groups of people (based on genes, social status, or what type of mascara one prefers). Look at how long a perfectly homogeneous group can become violent when separated into artificial "guard" or "prisoner" groups.

Most modern nations are based on artificial constructs dating to the decolonization period.

You're pointing us to proof that these units have been separate for generations. National identity here is stronger than the vast majority of other places.

Or do you also believe the US and Canada should just merge already. And the Anschluss was just good governance? And all those Latinos around Brazil should just let go and join up.

Hell, I agree with open borders and the reduction of false nationalistic identities as much as the next guy, but this isn't the way to do it.


I don't see where in my posts you get the idea that I wish such mechanisms to be applied. All I've tried to prove here is that Ukraine is not a monolithic bloc as suggested by some, in fact it's very polarized and that it should be seen as plurinational state just like Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, etc. and adopt a federative form so everyone's interests are taken into account. I'm not splitting them into ethnic categories but between eastern and western Ukrainians. They can have one official language nationwide and a second official language in the eastern provinces. These Russian speakers have been there for 300 years, before the concept of Ukraine even appeared... how can one suddenly deny them the right to have their minority rights constitutionally acknowledged? You just can't have a unitary state in such a polarized country.. look at it's history, for the past 25 years Ukrainians have been fighting over who will impose it's point of view to the other and look where it got them. Are you against federalism for Ukraine?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #888 by Slick Nick » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:45 pm

Sturminator wrote:
"The population of Novorossiya eventually became intermixed, and with Russification being the state policy, the Russian identity dominated in mixed families and communities."


Setting up and controlling colonies does not necessarily entail importing lots of bodies, although the Soviets did that, too, especially in Kharkiv, where the entire ruling class was imported from Russia, and the purges were frequent, deep and brutal. I probably would have been better off using the term "colonialism", though, as "colonization" strictly denotes migration, which was only one part of the process.


- Ethnic Ukrainians have not forgotten why the Donbass is filled with Russians
- The fact that many ethnic Russians live in the eastern part of the modern nation-state known as Ukraine is seen by many ethnic Ukrainians as the result of invasion and occupation


This was 150 years before the Soviet Union... that land was concquered from the Tatars by Catherine II and had no relation to Ukraine. Are you denying territorial expension to 18th century countries now? The point is that what is now called eastern Ukraine was colonized by both Russians and Ukrainians.. their presence on these lands has nothing to do with your theory of Soviet invasion and occupation.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #889 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:41 pm

Nick - Ukraine should be free.

... for business (Natalie Jaresko, Hunter Biden, Costco, etc).
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #890 by Sturminator » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:40 am

Please, Doc, Russplain to us some more how it would be better for ethnic Ukrainians to remain within the sphere of the happy, thriving Russian nation. Do you seriously think Ukrainians are willing to go to war over cheap tennis shoes and two gallon family packs of ketchup? Do you think westerners support Ukraine because of its potential as a business partner?

Look! I think I see it...it's...yes...yes, there it is...a hump like a snow hill! It's Doc's second favorite boogeyman...neoliberalism!

I realize you don't understand economics, Chimera, but even a basic understanding of arithmetic would make it clear this crisis is not about trade. They can go back to socialism for all I care; it worked out great for them the first time.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #891 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:05 pm

On Ukrainian and Russian identities.

http://www.e-ir.info/2015/05/05/russia- ... opolitics/

The historical construction focused on denying Russia’s statehood its Kievan roots. The idea that Ukraine is part of Europe, while the ‘Eurasian’ Russia is not, can be found right at the beginning of a long tradition of Russophobic scholarship. An extreme version of this argument, originally advanced by an early champion of racial exclusivity, Franciszek Duchiński, in the mid-nineteenth century, has been recently reanimated in the Ukrainian political discourse (Molchanov, 2002, pp. 169, 222-227). Duchiński went to great lengths to underscore the ‘Asianness’ of the Russians, which in the Eurocentric universe of the time was tantamount to barbarism and accounted, in his view, for both the despotic and subservient propensities of the Russian psyche. To sever the Ukrainians from the Russians, he concocted a quasi-scientific explanation of ethnic differences between the two nationalities, imagining their descent from different and completely unrelated tribes: the ‘Aryans’ in the case of Ukraine, and the ‘Turanians’ in the case of Russia:

Fully in line with pseudohistorical musings a la Duchiński, Ukrainian writers today deny the Russians their Slavic origins, arguing that ‘in truth, they are the people that descended from the Finno-Ugric tribes’ (Ukrinform.ua, 2014). Respected Ukrainian scholars, though not going that far, concur in arguing for Ukrainian primordial uniqueness and early separation from other Eastern Slavs. Academician Yaroslav Isaievych (1996) advanced the idea that ethnic differences between future Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians can be traced back to the times of Scythians and Sarmatians. A standard university textbook asserts that ‘the origins of the Ukrainian culture are lost in the hoary antiquity,’ that ‘Ukraine is the ancestral home of the Indo-European peoples,’ and that ‘the main population of Ukraine has not changed since the stone age’ (Ryabchenko et al., 2014, pp. 13, 33, 48). A pseudo-scholar opinion popularised in mass media and repeated in a high school textbook maintains that ‘in the 5th millennium BCE ancient Ukrainians invented the wheel and the plough… domesticated the horse’ (Serediuk, 2007; Krivich and Surgai, 2009, p. 81). Meanwhile, Russia is seen as an anti-civilisation, ‘the Moscow ulus based on the traditions of the Golden Horde,’ as ‘the Asian (Russian, Russian Orthodox) civilisation’ that ‘has no future’ (Hryniv, 2014).


By another Putinite troll : Mikhail Molchanov joined St. Thomas University in 2003. He carries Ph.D. in Philosophy from the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine (1989), Master’s in Public Administration from New York University (1993), and Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Alberta (1998). In April 2012, Mikhail Molchanov was named a foreign member of the National Academy of Pedagogical Sciences of Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #892 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:30 pm

The attack escalated the conflict,
and it resulted in a violent confrontation and a stand-off with the special police and
interior troops units. Various evidence suggests that the killings of the first three protesters
in January, as well as some other highly publicized but unresolved cases of violence which
the opposition attributed to the Yanukovych forces, were in fact false flag operations
designed to further escalate the conflict. The investigation under both the Yanukovych
and Maidan governments determined that they were killed from close distance in the
Maidan-controlled area (see Katchanovski, 2015b, p. 62). The Prosecutor General Office
of Ukraine since the end of 2014 has been investigating leaders and members of UNAUNSO,
one of the founding organizations of the Right Sector, as suspects in the killings
of these three Armenian, Belarusian, and Western Ukrainian protesters and another protester
who was killed on 18 February (Pechersk District Court, 2015a).


And another Putinite troll: Ivan Katchanovski teaches at the School of Political Studies at the University of Ottawa. He was Visiting Scholar at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Harvard University, Visiting Assistant Professor at the Department of Politics at the State University of New York at Potsdam, Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Department of Political Science at the University of Toronto, and Kluge Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Kluge Center at the Library of Congress. He received his Ph.D. from the School of Policy, Government, and International Affairs at George Mason University.
Supervisors: Seymour Martin Lipset

https://www.academia.edu/23620643/The_S ... of_Ukraine
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #893 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:31 pm

Sturminator wrote:Please, Doc, Russplain to us some more how it would be better for ethnic Ukrainians to remain within the sphere of the happy, thriving Russian nation. Do you seriously think Ukrainians are willing to go to war over cheap tennis shoes and two gallon family packs of ketchup? Do you think westerners support Ukraine because of its potential as a business partner?

Look! I think I see it...it's...yes...yes, there it is...a hump like a snow hill! It's Doc's second favorite boogeyman...neoliberalism!

I realize you don't understand economics, Chimera, but even a basic understanding of arithmetic would make it clear this crisis is not about trade. They can go back to socialism for all I care; it worked out great for them the first time.


Classical binary false choice. You just can't help but go there, Sturm, every single time. It is also the same kind of false choice that led to capitalist Pinochet in Chile.

It's not that I don't have reservations about Ukraine's place under the possessive grasp of Russia. My point is simply that I do not think neoliberalism will deliver on its promises, nor do I think it is America's place to intervene with such basic economic prescriptions and complete indifference about history and socio-cultural context.

There is also something awfully rotten about the ways Westerners think of Ukranians and their ability to choose their way of living. Whereas the Western Ukranians have a voice that needs to be heard, the Eastern ones suffer from false consciousness and delusion and need to be retaught. Colonial thinking never did leave the West after all.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #894 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:36 pm

Slick Nick wrote:And another Putinite troll: Ivan Katchanovski teaches at the School of Political Studies at the University of Ottawa. He was Visiting Scholar at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Harvard University, Visiting Assistant Professor at the Department of Politics at the State University of New York at Potsdam, Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Department of Political Science at the University of Toronto, and Kluge Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Kluge Center at the Library of Congress. He received his Ph.D. from the School of Policy, Government, and International Affairs at George Mason University.
Supervisors: Seymour Martin Lipset

https://www.academia.edu/23620643/The_S ... of_Ukraine


Saw him on TVO Agenda once. He was okay. A much more better guest there was Sergei Plekhanov, an event-handed, intelligent academic. Comes on the show every now and then.

He is seen here alongside a pissed off Polack and the self-hating ex-pat Nina Khrushcheva. Also Peter Dutkewicz - a smart man.

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #895 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:41 pm

Speaking of the Soviet Union, while it is terribly common in the West to associate all things terrible with that time and place, one of the legacies of the socialists in Russia is that of women's rights.

Here is a really good paper on this by William Mandel, which demonstrates the staggering degree of gender inequality in the United States in relation to the quite progressive system in the Soviet Union: https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea ... sequence=2

We can of course criticize the central planning of the Soviets until we are blue in the face, and I would be happy to do that as well. However they did a few things well, and understood that trickle down economics did not solve particular socio-economic problems (such as gender inequality).

The neoliberal solution to everything is always the same: forget your cultural institutions; you don't need them; you can start a business and make money. Always forgotten in such a prescription are issues of power. And no one thinks about how the money is concentrated in such situations. But hey - you can buy awesome packets of ketchup.

Of course Putin is not a solution. Since rescuing religion he has degraded some of this progress, even though Russia remains much more progressive at this than the United States (eg. there is paid maternal leave unlike ahem you know).
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #896 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:44 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:... Whereas the Western Ukranians have a voice that needs to be heard...


Well they invented the wheel and the plough after all..
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #897 by Pennywise » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:46 pm

Chaos Reigns wrote:Glad we can round up all these neoliberal/neoconservative fiends who attempt to encircle the Motherland, digitally.



My face if I show up on it..

:paulrus:
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #898 by Pennywise » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:52 pm

Slick Nick would be ordered to block me and deny any friend requests.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #899 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:47 pm

Adam Bakr al-BigDaddy wrote:Slick Nick would be ordered to block me and deny any friend requests.


Anything Vladimir <3 says is good for me
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #900 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:53 pm

At least Odessa is safe..

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