Ukraine: da

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #851 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:48 pm

Putin is doing a lot of questionable things. But I doubt he is bombing hospitals on purpose (in spite of what bellingcat claims). These kinds of accusations are laughable due to their presumption of pure evil (named Putin).

International actors tend to believe in the purity of their intentions, and morally rationalize the things they do. Putin's calculus is mainly two-fold: a) strengthen Assad before American capital gets its hands on Syria, b) become an indispensable player on the world stage.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #852 by Slick Nick » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:56 am

Just thought I would post this for our very confused friend who thinks eastern Ukraine has been "colonized" by the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

One of the most prominent Russians in the Medieval Ukraine (at that time Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was Ivan Fyodorov who published the Ostrog Bible and called himself a Muscovite.

In 1599 Tsar Boris Godunov ordered the construction of Tsareborisov on the banks of Oskol River, the first city and the first fortress in Eastern Ukraine. To defend the territory from Tatar raids the Russians built the Belgorod defensive line (1635–1658), and Ukrainians started fleeing to be under its defense.

More Russian speakers appeared in northern, central and eastern Ukrainian territories during the late 17th century, following the Cossack Rebellion led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky. The Uprising led to a massive movement of Ukrainian settlers to the Slobozhanschyna region, which converted it from a sparsely inhabited frontier area to one of the major populated regions of the Tsardom of Russia. Following the Treaty of Pereyaslav, Ukrainian Cossacks lands, including the modern northern and eastern parts of Ukraine became a protectorate of the into the Tsardom of Russia. This brought the first significant, but still small, wave of Russian settlers into central Ukraine (primarily several thousand soldiers stationed in garrisons,[3] out of a population of approximately 1.2 million non-Russians).[4]

At the end of the 18th century, the Russian Empire captured large uninhabited steppe territories from the former [b]Crimean Khanate. The systematic colonization of lands in what became known as Novorossiya (mainly Crimea, Taurida and around Odessa) began. Migrants from many ethnic groups (predominantly Ukrainians and Russians from Russia proper) came to this area.[5] At the same time the discovery of coal in the Donets Basin also marked the commencement of a large-scale industrialization and an influx of workers from other parts of the Russian Empire.

Nearly all of the major cities of the southern and eastern Ukraine were established in this period: Aleksandrovsk (now Zaporizhia; 1770), Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipropetrovsk; 1776), Kherson and Mariupol (1778), Sevastopol (1783), Simferopol and Novoaleksandrovka (Melitopol) (1784), Nikolayev (Mykolaiv; 1789), Odessa (1794), Lugansk (Luhansk; foundation of Luhansk plant in 1795).

Both Russians and Ukrainians made up the bulk of the migrants — 31.8% and 42.0% respectively.[citation needed] The population of Novorossiya eventually became intermixed, and with Russification being the state policy, the Russian identity dominated in mixed families and communities. The Russian Empire officially regarded Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians as Little, Great and White Russians, which, according to the theory officially accepted in the Imperial Russia, belonged to a single Russian nation, the descendants of the people of the Rus'.[citation needed]

In the beginning of the 20th century the Russians were the largest ethnic group in the following cities: Kiev (54,2%), Kharkov (63,1%), Odessa (49,09%), Nikolaev (66,33%), Mariupol (63,22%), Lugansk (68,16%), Berdiansk (66,05%), Kherson (47,21%), Melitopol (42,8%), Yekaterinoslav (41,78%), Yelisavetgrad (34,64%), Pavlograd (34,36%), Simferopol (45,64%), Feodosiya (46,84%), Yalta (66,17%), Kerch (57,8%), Sevastopol (63,46%), Cuguev (86%).[6]
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #853 by Sturminator » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:51 am

"The population of Novorossiya eventually became intermixed, and with Russification being the state policy, the Russian identity dominated in mixed families and communities."


Setting up and controlling colonies does not necessarily entail importing lots of bodies, although the Soviets did that, too, especially in Kharkiv, where the entire ruling class was imported from Russia, and the purges were frequent, deep and brutal. I probably would have been better off using the term "colonialism", though, as "colonization" strictly denotes migration, which was only one part of the process.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #854 by AD » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:27 am

Nick, you know I love you right.

But on this you're wrong. It takes about 2 hours to create differentiation in groups of people (based on genes, social status, or what type of mascara one prefers). Look at how long a perfectly homogeneous group can become violent when separated into artificial "guard" or "prisoner" groups.

Most modern nations are based on artificial constructs dating to the decolonization period.

You're pointing us to proof that these units have been separate for generations. National identity here is stronger than the vast majority of other places.

Or do you also believe the US and Canada should just merge already. And the Anschluss was just good governance? And all those Latinos around Brazil should just let go and join up.

Hell, I agree with open borders and the reduction of false nationalistic identities as much as the next guy, but this isn't the way to do it.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #855 by Slick Nick » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:20 pm

AD wrote:Nick, you know I love you right.

But on this you're wrong. It takes about 2 hours to create differentiation in groups of people (based on genes, social status, or what type of mascara one prefers). Look at how long a perfectly homogeneous group can become violent when separated into artificial "guard" or "prisoner" groups.

Most modern nations are based on artificial constructs dating to the decolonization period.

You're pointing us to proof that these units have been separate for generations. National identity here is stronger than the vast majority of other places.

Or do you also believe the US and Canada should just merge already. And the Anschluss was just good governance? And all those Latinos around Brazil should just let go and join up.

Hell, I agree with open borders and the reduction of false nationalistic identities as much as the next guy, but this isn't the way to do it.


I don't see where in my posts you get the idea that I wish such mechanisms to be applied. All I've tried to prove here is that Ukraine is not a monolithic bloc as suggested by some, in fact it's very polarized and that it should be seen as plurinational state just like Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, etc. and adopt a federative form so everyone's interests are taken into account. I'm not splitting them into ethnic categories but between eastern and western Ukrainians. They can have one official language nationwide and a second official language in the eastern provinces. These Russian speakers have been there for 300 years, before the concept of Ukraine even appeared... how can one suddenly deny them the right to have their minority rights constitutionally acknowledged? You just can't have a unitary state in such a polarized country.. look at it's history, for the past 25 years Ukrainians have been fighting over who will impose it's point of view to the other and look where it got them. Are you against federalism for Ukraine?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #856 by Slick Nick » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:45 pm

Sturminator wrote:
"The population of Novorossiya eventually became intermixed, and with Russification being the state policy, the Russian identity dominated in mixed families and communities."


Setting up and controlling colonies does not necessarily entail importing lots of bodies, although the Soviets did that, too, especially in Kharkiv, where the entire ruling class was imported from Russia, and the purges were frequent, deep and brutal. I probably would have been better off using the term "colonialism", though, as "colonization" strictly denotes migration, which was only one part of the process.


- Ethnic Ukrainians have not forgotten why the Donbass is filled with Russians
- The fact that many ethnic Russians live in the eastern part of the modern nation-state known as Ukraine is seen by many ethnic Ukrainians as the result of invasion and occupation


This was 150 years before the Soviet Union... that land was concquered from the Tatars by Catherine II and had no relation to Ukraine. Are you denying territorial expension to 18th century countries now? The point is that what is now called eastern Ukraine was colonized by both Russians and Ukrainians.. their presence on these lands has nothing to do with your theory of Soviet invasion and occupation.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #857 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:41 pm

Nick - Ukraine should be free.

... for business (Natalie Jaresko, Hunter Biden, Costco, etc).
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #858 by Sturminator » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:40 am

Please, Doc, Russplain to us some more how it would be better for ethnic Ukrainians to remain within the sphere of the happy, thriving Russian nation. Do you seriously think Ukrainians are willing to go to war over cheap tennis shoes and two gallon family packs of ketchup? Do you think westerners support Ukraine because of its potential as a business partner?

Look! I think I see it...it's...yes...yes, there it is...a hump like a snow hill! It's Doc's second favorite boogeyman...neoliberalism!

I realize you don't understand economics, Chimera, but even a basic understanding of arithmetic would make it clear this crisis is not about trade. They can go back to socialism for all I care; it worked out great for them the first time.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #859 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:05 pm

On Ukrainian and Russian identities.

http://www.e-ir.info/2015/05/05/russia- ... opolitics/

The historical construction focused on denying Russia’s statehood its Kievan roots. The idea that Ukraine is part of Europe, while the ‘Eurasian’ Russia is not, can be found right at the beginning of a long tradition of Russophobic scholarship. An extreme version of this argument, originally advanced by an early champion of racial exclusivity, Franciszek Duchiński, in the mid-nineteenth century, has been recently reanimated in the Ukrainian political discourse (Molchanov, 2002, pp. 169, 222-227). Duchiński went to great lengths to underscore the ‘Asianness’ of the Russians, which in the Eurocentric universe of the time was tantamount to barbarism and accounted, in his view, for both the despotic and subservient propensities of the Russian psyche. To sever the Ukrainians from the Russians, he concocted a quasi-scientific explanation of ethnic differences between the two nationalities, imagining their descent from different and completely unrelated tribes: the ‘Aryans’ in the case of Ukraine, and the ‘Turanians’ in the case of Russia:

Fully in line with pseudohistorical musings a la Duchiński, Ukrainian writers today deny the Russians their Slavic origins, arguing that ‘in truth, they are the people that descended from the Finno-Ugric tribes’ (Ukrinform.ua, 2014). Respected Ukrainian scholars, though not going that far, concur in arguing for Ukrainian primordial uniqueness and early separation from other Eastern Slavs. Academician Yaroslav Isaievych (1996) advanced the idea that ethnic differences between future Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians can be traced back to the times of Scythians and Sarmatians. A standard university textbook asserts that ‘the origins of the Ukrainian culture are lost in the hoary antiquity,’ that ‘Ukraine is the ancestral home of the Indo-European peoples,’ and that ‘the main population of Ukraine has not changed since the stone age’ (Ryabchenko et al., 2014, pp. 13, 33, 48). A pseudo-scholar opinion popularised in mass media and repeated in a high school textbook maintains that ‘in the 5th millennium BCE ancient Ukrainians invented the wheel and the plough… domesticated the horse’ (Serediuk, 2007; Krivich and Surgai, 2009, p. 81). Meanwhile, Russia is seen as an anti-civilisation, ‘the Moscow ulus based on the traditions of the Golden Horde,’ as ‘the Asian (Russian, Russian Orthodox) civilisation’ that ‘has no future’ (Hryniv, 2014).


By another Putinite troll : Mikhail Molchanov joined St. Thomas University in 2003. He carries Ph.D. in Philosophy from the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine (1989), Master’s in Public Administration from New York University (1993), and Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Alberta (1998). In April 2012, Mikhail Molchanov was named a foreign member of the National Academy of Pedagogical Sciences of Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #860 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:30 pm

The attack escalated the conflict,
and it resulted in a violent confrontation and a stand-off with the special police and
interior troops units. Various evidence suggests that the killings of the first three protesters
in January, as well as some other highly publicized but unresolved cases of violence which
the opposition attributed to the Yanukovych forces, were in fact false flag operations
designed to further escalate the conflict. The investigation under both the Yanukovych
and Maidan governments determined that they were killed from close distance in the
Maidan-controlled area (see Katchanovski, 2015b, p. 62). The Prosecutor General Office
of Ukraine since the end of 2014 has been investigating leaders and members of UNAUNSO,
one of the founding organizations of the Right Sector, as suspects in the killings
of these three Armenian, Belarusian, and Western Ukrainian protesters and another protester
who was killed on 18 February (Pechersk District Court, 2015a).


And another Putinite troll: Ivan Katchanovski teaches at the School of Political Studies at the University of Ottawa. He was Visiting Scholar at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Harvard University, Visiting Assistant Professor at the Department of Politics at the State University of New York at Potsdam, Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Department of Political Science at the University of Toronto, and Kluge Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Kluge Center at the Library of Congress. He received his Ph.D. from the School of Policy, Government, and International Affairs at George Mason University.
Supervisors: Seymour Martin Lipset

https://www.academia.edu/23620643/The_S ... of_Ukraine
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #861 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:31 pm

Sturminator wrote:Please, Doc, Russplain to us some more how it would be better for ethnic Ukrainians to remain within the sphere of the happy, thriving Russian nation. Do you seriously think Ukrainians are willing to go to war over cheap tennis shoes and two gallon family packs of ketchup? Do you think westerners support Ukraine because of its potential as a business partner?

Look! I think I see it...it's...yes...yes, there it is...a hump like a snow hill! It's Doc's second favorite boogeyman...neoliberalism!

I realize you don't understand economics, Chimera, but even a basic understanding of arithmetic would make it clear this crisis is not about trade. They can go back to socialism for all I care; it worked out great for them the first time.


Classical binary false choice. You just can't help but go there, Sturm, every single time. It is also the same kind of false choice that led to capitalist Pinochet in Chile.

It's not that I don't have reservations about Ukraine's place under the possessive grasp of Russia. My point is simply that I do not think neoliberalism will deliver on its promises, nor do I think it is America's place to intervene with such basic economic prescriptions and complete indifference about history and socio-cultural context.

There is also something awfully rotten about the ways Westerners think of Ukranians and their ability to choose their way of living. Whereas the Western Ukranians have a voice that needs to be heard, the Eastern ones suffer from false consciousness and delusion and need to be retaught. Colonial thinking never did leave the West after all.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #862 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:36 pm

Slick Nick wrote:And another Putinite troll: Ivan Katchanovski teaches at the School of Political Studies at the University of Ottawa. He was Visiting Scholar at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Harvard University, Visiting Assistant Professor at the Department of Politics at the State University of New York at Potsdam, Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Department of Political Science at the University of Toronto, and Kluge Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Kluge Center at the Library of Congress. He received his Ph.D. from the School of Policy, Government, and International Affairs at George Mason University.
Supervisors: Seymour Martin Lipset

https://www.academia.edu/23620643/The_S ... of_Ukraine


Saw him on TVO Agenda once. He was okay. A much more better guest there was Sergei Plekhanov, an event-handed, intelligent academic. Comes on the show every now and then.

He is seen here alongside a pissed off Polack and the self-hating ex-pat Nina Khrushcheva. Also Peter Dutkewicz - a smart man.

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #863 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:41 pm

Speaking of the Soviet Union, while it is terribly common in the West to associate all things terrible with that time and place, one of the legacies of the socialists in Russia is that of women's rights.

Here is a really good paper on this by William Mandel, which demonstrates the staggering degree of gender inequality in the United States in relation to the quite progressive system in the Soviet Union: https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea ... sequence=2

We can of course criticize the central planning of the Soviets until we are blue in the face, and I would be happy to do that as well. However they did a few things well, and understood that trickle down economics did not solve particular socio-economic problems (such as gender inequality).

The neoliberal solution to everything is always the same: forget your cultural institutions; you don't need them; you can start a business and make money. Always forgotten in such a prescription are issues of power. And no one thinks about how the money is concentrated in such situations. But hey - you can buy awesome packets of ketchup.

Of course Putin is not a solution. Since rescuing religion he has degraded some of this progress, even though Russia remains much more progressive at this than the United States (eg. there is paid maternal leave unlike ahem you know).
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #864 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:44 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:... Whereas the Western Ukranians have a voice that needs to be heard...


Well they invented the wheel and the plough after all..
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #865 by shredz » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:46 pm

Chaos Reigns wrote:Glad we can round up all these neoliberal/neoconservative fiends who attempt to encircle the Motherland, digitally.



My face if I show up on it..

:paulrus:
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #866 by shredz » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:52 pm

Slick Nick would be ordered to block me and deny any friend requests.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #867 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:47 pm

Adam Bakr al-BigDaddy wrote:Slick Nick would be ordered to block me and deny any friend requests.


Anything Vladimir <3 says is good for me
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #868 by Slick Nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:53 pm

At least Odessa is safe..

Image

Image

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #869 by Sturminator » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:08 am

Well...the Russian navy is actually pretty sad these days compared to what the Soviets kept in the field, but the army and air force are fine. Russian gear right now is, indeed, fine for most applications, though if Pakistan thinks buying Russian will save them from a second Abbottabad, they will be disappointed. Of course, it's questionable if the American military could detect their own stealth technology if it were ever used against them. Countermeasure systems are lagging a bit at the moment.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #870 by Slick Nick » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:09 am

You can get 3 russian jets for the price of a natonian jet. Makes sense value wise.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #871 by Slick Nick » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:34 am

So we're this close to have a transcaucasian war.....

It's great news that my family and I are supposed to visit Georgia for the first time since 1991... in 3 weeks.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #872 by shredz » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:34 am

They say they are still going at it.



http://www.azernews.az/azerbaijan/94609.html
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #873 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:01 am

In related news Radoslaw Sikorski's wife and imperialist stooge bellingcat combine for a scorching hot take about the red threat of a "Russian troll factory".

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #874 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:13 am

^tfw
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #875 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:19 am

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #876 by Slick Nick » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:14 am

Chaos Reigns wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:So we're this close to have a transcaucasian war.....

It's great news that my family and I are supposed to visit Georgia for the first time since 1991... in 3 weeks.


From the sound of it, the only people you have to worry about are other Georgians.



Other Georgians are the friendliest people of all. Armenians are pretty cool too. Azeris are fine lads aswell. Then someone tells a joke about someone's mother and next thing you know it's WWIII. Focken Kavkaz.

:why:
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #877 by shredz » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:03 pm

Karabakh crisis: Russian-Turkish war by proxy intensifying. Beheadings. The Panama Papers.

War is looming.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #878 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:54 pm

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #879 by Slick Nick » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:44 am

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #880 by Slick Nick » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:47 pm

Dutch leader says may have to reconsider EU-Ukraine treaty after referendum

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-nether ... KKCN0X3001

Poor Khokhols man, they can try the African Union maybe :(
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Post #881 by Slick Nick » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:41 pm

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #882 by Slick Nick » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:34 pm

Panama Papel now a Russian conspiracy. What a time to live.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ge%2Fstory
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #883 by Slick Nick » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:12 am

It keeps getting better.

Will Poland ever uncover the truth about the plane crash that killed its president?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/f ... and-russia

North Korea tier efforts.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #884 by Slick Nick » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:23 pm

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Post #885 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:23 pm

Slick Nick wrote:Panama Papel now a Russian conspiracy. What a time to live.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ge%2Fstory


Excellent news!
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #886 by Slick Nick » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:51 am

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Post #887 by Dr_Chimera » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:51 pm

Russia's a gas station, but they are making their own blue cheese now.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #888 by Slick Nick » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:06 pm

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Post #889 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:41 pm

US-Ukraine parable.

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #890 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:42 pm

Slick Nick wrote:Good read on the current situation.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/13/the ... -yatsenuk/


And yet notice the paternalistic, imperialistic language here - again only the US can save Ukraine from US saving it.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #891 by Slick Nick » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:22 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:Good read on the current situation.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/13/the ... -yatsenuk/


And yet notice the paternalistic, imperialistic language here - again only the US can save Ukraine from US saving it.


Well someone needs to save Ukraine, because they certainly proved through this glorious episode that they can't do it on their own... what a fuckin waste.

Still can't believe Belarus looks like this while Ukraine is begging for credits.

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #892 by Dr_Chimera » Sat May 14, 2016 3:12 am

2016 was supposed to be a glorious year for Ukraine hockey. A revival that began 10 years ago had the objective of making Ukraine an elite hockey power, instead, the Ukraine/pro-Russian war devastated the plan. But thanks to the resilience of a Ukrainian billionaire, the dream is still alive.


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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #893 by Dr_Chimera » Sat May 14, 2016 7:49 pm


Sounds catchy.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #894 by Slick Nick » Tue May 17, 2016 9:26 pm

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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #895 by senate » Tue May 17, 2016 11:44 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
2016 was supposed to be a glorious year for Ukraine hockey. A revival that began 10 years ago had the objective of making Ukraine an elite hockey power, instead, the Ukraine/pro-Russian war devastated the plan. But thanks to the resilience of a Ukrainian billionaire, the dream is still alive.


Image


Wait, it isn't Eugene Melnyk is it? Is this why the Senators are a cap floor team?
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #896 by Dr_Chimera » Fri May 20, 2016 5:31 pm

The neoliberal stage begins.



Embedded tweet reads: Klitschko suggests that citizens of the capital use credit to pay for communal dwelling.

Main tweet: Perhaps they could sell a kidney as well.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #897 by Slick Nick » Sun May 22, 2016 3:36 am

Them Russians and their Chernobyl ruined those too :why:
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #898 by Sturminator » Sun May 22, 2016 4:06 am

You two are so cute. If you were Americans, you'd be white guys from Tennessee throwing darts at the excesses of the Black Lives Matter movement.

"The Sentencing Reforn Act was, like, thirty years ago. Get over it, Tyrone."
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #899 by Slick Nick » Mon May 23, 2016 2:10 am

Alaska is next.
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Re: Ukraine: da

Post #900 by Dr_Chimera » Mon May 23, 2016 3:39 am

ROFL

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