The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:10 pm

Aye
10
63%
Naw
6
38%
don't give a shit. do what you want.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 16
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Post #101 by AD » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:11 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:Oh c'mon, certainly things can't be that bad for that anglophone I rode to work today.


Stop speaking about NyQuil's wife that way. :colbert:



















Edit: sorry NyQuil, I don't know any other prominent broads who are married and live in Ottawa. This started as an attemp to make fun of Boozer's womanizing and general manwhorishness and ended up as an insult to your lovely wife. For that I apologize.
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Post #102 by Mufasa » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:27 pm

RTWAP wrote:There are 4 school boards in Ottawa. The fastest growing ones are the two French-language ones. To even get your kids into them they need to speak French at home. It's not immersion. It's French school.

My kids' school has a 4-year waiting list to get in. You have to sign your kids up shortly before their first birthday if you hope to have any chance of getting in. This isn't Vanier or Orleans. It's Nepean.

I realize that doesn't fit your narrative.


First that's Ottawa, right next to Quebec, secondo less than 60% of Francophones speak french at home in Ontario, that's a statistical fact, also the french population of Ontario is growing less quickly than the english population, it has been like that for over a century now, right now the growing speed is about half of the english growing speed, and that's not including the high rates of assimilation for each generation. So i don't see how your lil' story doesn't fit my narrative.

But yeah this story of the French population doing great in Canada has been told for quite a while now, i'd take time to look at the demographics since the confederation, or even from 30 years ago when i was born, and tell me that everything is mighty fine. That, my friend, doesn't fit your narrative.
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Post #103 by Mufasa » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:31 pm

French Canadians from outside of Quebec are born for an even plus petit pain, au moin nous autre on a un May West pis une liqueur brune pour aller avec.
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Beaker wrote:I publiclay apologies to Mumu.
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Post #104 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:28 am

The Bytown Boozer wrote:LOL DEMPSO DOESN'T GET CANADA


Nobody, but nobody is whiter than a white from Minnesota.
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Post #105 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:32 am

dempsey_k wrote:Wait, some French in Canada consider themselves non-white?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahah


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Post #106 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:38 am

embracedbias wrote:I just don't understand you mustafa



He's trying to present a rather simple fact, should be almost recognized as truth, and people keep trying to confront that with obscure arguments about some anecdotal proof about x or y community.

The simple fact Mu is stating is this: absent active protection, there will be less francophones in North America.

Now he proposes that protection means having an independant gov't with full powers. That's clearly debatable. But saying that Ottawa French schools are thriving and that there is a cute franco conference in Baton Rouge really doesn't mean much.
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Post #107 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:35 am

AD is now the official translator of all things Mumu.
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Post #108 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:36 am

As for the original question, Aye. The whole fucking commonwealth should say fuck off to the Queen IMO.
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Post #109 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:02 am

Psycho Papa Joe wrote:AD is now the official translator of all things Mumu.


I understand my people.
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Post #110 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:06 am

AD wrote:He's trying to present a rather simple fact, should be almost recognized as truth, and people keep trying to confront that with obscure arguments about some anecdotal proof about x or y community.

The simple fact Mu is stating is this: absent active protection, there will be less francophones in North America.

Now he proposes that protection means having an independant gov't with full powers. That's clearly debatable. But saying that Ottawa French schools are thriving and that there is a cute franco conference in Baton Rouge really doesn't mean much.


The point is that full protection doesn't work anyway, so it's time to look at other community-based models for supporting second languages employed in Canada and elsewhere.

I just don't buy this Quebec is the sole guardian of the French language in Canada bullshit.

There are plenty of folks actively working towards preservation of the French language without resorting to xenophobia or outright racism.

Mustafa wrote:i'd take time to look at the demographics since the confederation, or even from 30 years ago when i was born, and tell me that everything is mighty fine


I'm loving this nostalgia for Lower Canada.

Clearly it's time to bring back the coureurs des bois and set things right.
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Post #111 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:49 am

NyQuil wrote:The point is that full protection doesn't work anyway, so it's time to look at other community-based models for supporting second languages employed in Canada and elsewhere.


Disagree. It has worked very well in Quebec. Its also largely why support for independance is low. (i.e, we're realizing we can stay in Canada and remain different).

NyQuil wrote:I just don't buy this Quebec is the sole guardian of the French language in Canada bullshit.


I don't think anybody is saying that. If anything, Mums would want all francophone communities to be guardians of the French language.

NyQuil wrote:There are plenty of folks actively working towards preservation of the French language without resorting to xenophobia or outright racism.


?
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Post #112 by IcE ColD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:54 am

embracedbias wrote:No, I meant that je ne pas comprenhende les francais dans le poste


That's totally normal, I think you either need to know some Québécois or at least hear some talk regularly to get what was said in that sentence.
This whole idea that we are even important is a fucking illusion. We’re just an accident left to our own devices.

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Post #113 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:57 am

embracedbias wrote:No, I meant that je ne pas comprenhende les francais dans le poste


:gary:
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Post #114 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:27 am

Big#D wrote:if only trudeau had gone all martial law on the official languages act and forced the provinces to make french immersion mandatory for all schools (english immersion in quebec obv), we'd have a country of fully bilingual people and people would stop bitching about french being a dying language.


Reminds me of a friend of mine who works for the Feds. He applied for an executive position in Alberta and was screened out because he couldn't speak French. Apparantly that community doesn't have a single French speaker. There is zero demand for french speaking services. What a country we live in :danson:
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Post #115 by Craig » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:28 am

AD wrote:He's trying to present a rather simple fact, should be almost recognized as truth, and people keep trying to confront that with obscure arguments about some anecdotal proof about x or y community.

The simple fact Mu is stating is this: absent active protection, there will be less francophones in North America.

Now he proposes that protection means having an independant gov't with full powers. That's clearly debatable. But saying that Ottawa French schools are thriving and that there is a cute franco conference in Baton Rouge really doesn't mean much.


He's also making the assumption that Francophones are for some reason more valuable than Allophones or Anglos.
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Post #116 by Mufasa » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:41 am

Craig wrote:He's also making the assumption that Francophones are for some reason more valuable than Allophones or Anglos.


Well except for broads who are at least worth a cadian.

































But how did I make that assumption? Appart from my history of trolling?
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Post #117 by Craig » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:47 am

Dog wrote:He's crazy.

A frenchman is worth 0.75 anglos and 1.2 allos.

(Seriously, how does he make that assumption? The argument is about preserving)


Surely his premise is that they're worth preserving?
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Post #118 by Mufasa » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:53 am

Craig wrote:Surely his premise is that they're worth preserving?


Not really, I just wanted to expose NyQuil narrative, and the usual bilingual Canada hypocrisy.

The real fight would be to preserve Quebec demographic proportions. As long as Québec' demographics stay the way they are il n'y a pas péril en la demeure.

We could achieve indépendance in 50 years for all I care.
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Post #119 by Mufasa » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:25 am

Dog wrote:In the current federal system, I don't see why Quebec's relative weight matters. Unless you worry about francophone foreign policy and the like. We've gone through this a million times, but Quebec has all the powers to protect the french language and its culture as is (it falls within it's provincial powers).


:why:
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Post #120 by Craig » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:28 am

Dog wrote:In the current federal system, I don't see why Quebec's relative weight matters. Unless you worry about francophone foreign policy and the like. We've gone through this a million times, but Quebec has all the powers to protect the french language and its culture as is (it falls within it's provincial powers).


But what is Quebec doing to protect the French language in Penetanguishene?
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Post #121 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:32 am

Craig wrote:He's also making the assumption that Francophones are for some reason more valuable than Allophones or Anglos.


How so?
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Post #122 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:38 am

AD wrote:Disagree. It has worked very well in Quebec. Its also largely why support for independance is low. (i.e, we're realizing we can stay in Canada and remain different).


I think some were also recognizing that identity politics were being misused by the leading separatist party as a distraction from issues such as the economy and the sustainability of social services.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/why-young-sovereignists-are-rethinking-the-pqs-french-obsession/

AD wrote:I don't think anybody is saying that. If anything, Mums would want all francophone communities to be guardians of the French language.


It's hard to imagine the language dying out when the number of speakers keeps increasing. Between 1981 and 2011 (the 30 year window that Mumu speaks of), the population whose mother tongue is French grew 16%. The population with French as the language spoken most often at home or as first official language spoken increased by 17.6% and 21.3%, respectively.

Languages in danger of extinction are not actively gaining speakers.

I think the threat has been overblown. The proportional weight may change, but the language is not going to die.

As it is, I'm not averse to measures to protect the language, however, I see a slippery slope towards outright endorsement of a particular ethnic group over another.

AD wrote:?


When the self-appointed protector party of the French language in Quebec decides to endorse Bernard Drainville's vision of Quebec values, I start to wonder.

Mustafa wrote:The real fight would be to preserve Quebec demographic proportions. As long as Québec' demographics stay the way they are il n'y a pas péril en la demeure.


Everyone's demographics are changing. Welcome to reality.

Multiculturalism or melting pot - you're not going to be able to freeze a culture in stasis with Western birthrates.

That goes for every part of Canada, not just Quebec.

I'm certainly beginning to understand the Mumu narrative which is essentially that he wants to build a time machine and live in the 1970s.
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Post #123 by Craig » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:41 am

AD wrote:How so?


I'm assuming the reason to protect your demographic is because you value it over the alternatives you're afraid of it turning into.
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Post #124 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:47 am

Craig wrote:I'm assuming the reason to protect your demographic is because you value it over the alternatives you're afraid of it turning into.


There's that imagination. :busky:
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Post #125 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:47 am

Dog wrote:As maclean's cited in a Quebec discussion?

That's it, I want out.


Take it up with Jason Brochu-Valcourt.
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Post #126 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:56 am

Dog wrote:Was maclean's cited in a Quebec discussion?








That's it, I want out.


Jesus christ.

On veut un pays! On veut un pays!
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Post #127 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:01 pm

AD wrote:Jesus christ.

On veut un pays! On veut un pays!


Maclean's repetitively announcing that separation is dead is probably the best thing for the cause.

It's like the US endorsing Mahmoud Abbas.

"No, please don't."

"You're our guy!"

"Damn it."

If the Québécois are willing to vote for NDPers they've never heard of, out of spite I guess, anything is possible.
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Post #128 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:16 pm

Big#D wrote:A once venerable institution that has long outlived its usefulness and is humourous in the extent to which they no longer have a clue about their field of "expertise".


AD?
































[SIZE="1"]*That's for the wife comment. An anglophone never forgets and never forgives.[/size]
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Post #129 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:26 pm

Lord Chezz wrote:So if Mr. Executive has a group that delivers national services to the public or provices services in a community where there is an instance of francophone service more than 5% of the time, he must be bilingual to be able to manage grievances (grievors are able to do so in the language of their choice), provide performance reviews (employees can do so in the language of choice) and provide strategic advice to clients (external/internal) or stakeholders in the language of their choice.


This is why people are always away on French training.

It is career limiting in the public service to not reach a certain standard in French and English.
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Post #130 by clawfirst » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:37 pm

NyQuil wrote:This is why people are always away on French training.

It is career limiting in the public service to not reach a certain standard in French and English.


So what you are saying is ,we must kill off the French as they are an even greater tax burden than the average proper English man believed...
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Post #131 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:45 pm

Lord Chezz wrote:One of two reasons:

-The position was incorrectly classified as bilingual; or more likely
-The position was required to manage individuals either: within bilingual regions, or those where bilingual obligations exist.

So if Mr. Executive has a group that delivers national services to the public or provices services in a community where there is an instance of francophone service more than 5% of the time, he must be bilingual to be able to manage grievances (grievors are able to do so in the language of their choice), provide performance reviews (employees can do so in the language of choice) and provide strategic advice to clients (external/internal) or stakeholders in the language of their choice.

Goes way beyond the physical location of the position, Joe.


Apparantly the instances of French language services being required was zero. Somewhere in Buttfuck Alberta.
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Post #132 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:46 pm

Psycho Papa Joe wrote:Apparantly the instances of French language services being required was zero.


It's more to do with your subordinates potentially preferring French than service delivery to the public IIRC.

clawfirst wrote:So what you are saying is ,we must kill off the French as they are an even greater tax burden than the average proper English man believed...


The requirement for bilingualism among employees has expanded substantially within the federal government within the last two decades.

There is a cost associated with the ongoing training and certification of language proficiencies.

In addition, some have argued that over-emphasis on bilingualism has made other job qualifications irrelevant which can have an impact on the pool of applicants to public service positions (particularly those outside of NB, Quebec and Ontario).

On the plus side, many of the meetings I attend are fully bilingual. Speakers converse in whatever language they prefer.

Ultimately, it's something to keep in mind when thinking about education of your kids.
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Post #133 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:02 pm

[CENTER] :getzyawnf: [/CENTER]
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Post #134 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:02 pm

Fucking federal bureaucratic nightmare apologists.
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Post #135 by Mufasa » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:03 pm

NyQuil wrote:I think some were also recognizing that identity politics were being misused by the leading separatist party as a distraction from issues such as the economy and the sustainability of social services.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/why-young-sovereignists-are-rethinking-the-pqs-french-obsession/


McLeans could be the least reliable source when it comes to Quebec. Patriquin is actually an assimilated francophone. But the article is pretty interesting, i don't care much about protecting the french language in the end, in the, the following day of independance we could nuke bill 101 i wouldn't care much, when i hear baby-boomeurs screaming Quebec en français i cringe, the only part of bill 101 that i'll keep is immigrants who don't have english as a mother tongue must attend french school, wich was almost non-existent before bill 101.

I'm only talking about demographics here.

It's hard to imagine the language dying out when the number of speakers keeps increasing. Between 1981 and 2011 (the 30 year window that Mumu speaks of), the population whose mother tongue is French grew 16%. The population with French as the language spoken most often at home or as first official language spoken increased by 17.6% and 21.3%, respectively.

Languages in danger of extinction are not actively gaining speakers.

I think the threat has been overblown. The proportional weight may change, but the language is not going to die.


Are you implying that french speakers aren't making babies? For sure the numbers are increasing, but the amount of french speakers raising their children in english is massive in bi-cultural households, wait till the baby-boomers disapear. The demographic weight of Francophones out of Quebec is very important for them, it's a lot of trouble to even have education in french in most regions that aren't Ottawa or New-Brunswick, le nombre dicte tout. And if young Quebecers are leaving the whole fight behind them, french-tards from the rest of the country should follow.

As it is, I'm not averse to measures to protect the language, however, I see a slippery slope towards outright endorsement of a particular ethnic group over another.


I don't like the relativism that often come from federalists argument, that both culture needs to be treated equaly, for sure it needs to be, that's why there is Bill 101 or else it would be a lost battle.

When the self-appointed protector party of the French language in Quebec decides to endorse Bernard Drainville's vision of Quebec values, I start to wonder.


PQ is real bullshit, nobody likes them anymore.


Everyone's demographics are changing. Welcome to reality.

Multiculturalism or melting pot - you're not going to be able to freeze a culture in stasis with Western birthrates.

That goes for every part of Canada, not just Quebec.

I'm certainly beginning to understand the Mumu narrative which is essentially that he wants to build a time machine and live in the 1970s.


For the metling pot thing i'm all for it, you can have any culture you want as long as french is preserved in Quebec, don't really care about the rest of Canada. And the demographic changes will not affect the english language by the way, immigration just means more english speakers in a generation or two.

How come i want to go back to the 70'? I just said the present demographic must be preserved in Quebec, that also means the english part. So what i really need is a time machine that'll take me back to this morning, when i posted that.

You are talking like if making french people the smallest minority possible and making Canada a english country wasn't a project, "it just happened" wich is completly the contrary, the very basis of our corrupted electoral system is to make sure french becomes/remain a minority.
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Post #136 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:04 pm

I could talk federal government HR policy all day and enjoy it.

This is what Ottawa does to people.
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Post #137 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:17 pm

Lord Chezz wrote:So I assume you're an external consultant and get paid twice as much as I do.


Are you planning on doing the double dip some day Chezz? Collect your pension and then be hired as an external consultant? Apparantly it's all the rage in the federal gov't these days.
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Post #138 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:19 pm

NyQuil wrote:AD?
































[SIZE="1"]*That's for the wife comment. An anglophone never forgets and never forgives.[/size]


:stare:

But I apologized. Sincerely!

Even though I was repped for that joke.

:gary:
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Post #139 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:23 pm

[QUOTe=Lord Chezz]Though some big changes are coming to the HR world in the feds in the next few years. I might be compelled to take the buy out and start that consultancy a little earlier.
[/QUOTE]

Lord Chezz wrote:So I assume you're an external consultant and get paid twice as much as I do.


If you ever want to take the plunge, let me know.

We used to have a fairly robust HR practice. A lot of it was classification and job description writing though.

Still, there's always a need to understand HR policy and assess proposed organizational changes in terms of their impact on positions etc.
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Post #140 by AD » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:26 pm

So.. NyQ.. what do you do now?
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Post #141 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:29 pm

Given my propensity for off the colour humor, people like NyQuil make my job a living hell. Fuck you assholes and your sensitivity training. :madfawk:
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Post #142 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:31 pm

Lord Chezz wrote:Even for us swamp dwellers in New Brunswick?


Time to move to Ottawa and make the big bucks Chezz. Enough with New Buttfuckswick

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