The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:10 pm

Aye
10
63%
Naw
6
38%
don't give a shit. do what you want.
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No votes
 
Total votes: 16
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1051 by Dog » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:51 am

AD wrote:
And at least old Chambers had a plan and a good head on his shoulders.


He did secure peace for our time by securing war for his time.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1052 by AD » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:53 am

I hardly blame him for war.

If anything, those pompous racist fascists (Churchill, Stalin) deserve the real blame.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1053 by Dog » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:59 am

I like how "I wish I could be a national-socialist fascist" banana doesn't blame Hitler or Mussolini.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1054 by AD » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:00 am

Victims of the injustices caused by British and French aggressive colonialism.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1055 by PredsFan77 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:24 pm

He's no Lord Buckethead
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1056 by PredsFan77 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:21 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1057 by mayoradamwest » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:19 pm

AD wrote:Victims of the injustices caused by British and French aggressive colonialism.


It's not that the Italians weren't pushing colonialism, they just happened to be in a rebuilding year.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1058 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:10 pm

NEW LABOUR IS DEAD EVERYBODY!!!
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1059 by PredsFan77 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:33 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:NEW LABOUR IS DEAD EVERYBODY!!!


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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1060 by Dog » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:34 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:NEW LABOUR IS DEAD EVERYBODY!!!


Nothing but commies and fascists left, bro. Pick your sides!
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1061 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Dog wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:NEW LABOUR IS DEAD EVERYBODY!!!


Nothing but commies and fascists left, bro. Pick your sides!


Personally, I'll always pick the side that calls me comrade rather than 'bro'.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1062 by Dog » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:02 pm

Do fascists say bro? Nanners?
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1063 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:56 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1064 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:03 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1065 by Dog » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:13 pm

Are you a papist, boozer?
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1066 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:20 pm

Dog wrote:Are you a papist, boozer?

I'm really more of a papsmearist.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1067 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:24 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1068 by AD » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:40 pm

Dog wrote:Do fascists say bro? Nanners?


I see no brothers. Only degenerates that need to be cleaned up.


Sorry what was the question?
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1069 by PredsFan77 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:01 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1070 by AD » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:05 pm

Yeah I'm a big fan of massages too.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1071 by edgar_dong » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:38 am

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1072 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:07 pm

Theresa May is ‘dead woman walking’, says George Osborne
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1073 by PredsFan77 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:53 pm

http://www.politico.eu/article/how-ther ... -campaign/

may = palin

On election night, the 12 most senior figures — including Hill, Timothy, Crosby, Messina, Gilbert and Textor — gathered to hear the exit poll in private before filtering back out into the main open-plan room at campaign headquarters where the rest of the staff watched the forecast of a hung parliament in horror.

“The room fell completely silent,” one staffer in the room said. “It was really depressing.”

Crosby spoke up in an attempt to lighten the mood. “He was like ‘what’s everyone doing? You can talk, you can smile’.”

Just two days before, the Tory team was bullish, convinced that the momentum had turned back in their direction. One minister told POLITICO May would return a substantial majority and commentators who suggested Corbyn could beat expectations would face “pretty searching questions.”

..

But as weeks wore on, the Tory campaign appeared to grow complacent. Shock polls, such as analysis by YouGov predicting a hung parliament published in the Times a week before the election, were dismissed by May’s team. Messina tweeted the head of YouGov to say: “Spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll from [YouGov].” That poll proved accurate.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1074 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:22 pm

Jim Messina has not tweeted since early on the election day.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1075 by Dr_Chimera » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:24 pm

Jim Messina.

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1076 by jester » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:48 pm

UK is an interesting experiment in leadership void in a Parliamentary system. Given Corbyn's pitiful favorables until very recently, you'd assume Labour's gains stem more from a negative argument as opposed to a positive argument. This is a big problem here for US progressives and the lessons they are trying to draw from a 2nd place finish. Of course, Dems/Progressives will have a nice foil to role up voters with for the next few years.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1077 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:37 am

jester wrote:UK is an interesting experiment in leadership void in a Parliamentary system. Given Corbyn's pitiful favorables until very recently, you'd assume Labour's gains stem more from a negative argument as opposed to a positive argument. This is a big problem here for US progressives and the lessons they are trying to draw from a 2nd place finish. Of course, Dems/Progressives will have a nice foil to role up voters with for the next few years.


I think we have to recognize that there has been a paradigm shift in western politics (which may or may not be long lived). Electorates are more "audacious" and looking outside the established political class and "status quo" candidates.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1078 by jester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:51 am

Dog wrote:
jester wrote:UK is an interesting experiment in leadership void in a Parliamentary system. Given Corbyn's pitiful favorables until very recently, you'd assume Labour's gains stem more from a negative argument as opposed to a positive argument. This is a big problem here for US progressives and the lessons they are trying to draw from a 2nd place finish. Of course, Dems/Progressives will have a nice foil to role up voters with for the next few years.


I think we have to recognize that there has been a paradigm shift in western politics (which may or may not be long lived). Electorates are more "audacious" and looking outside the established political class and "status quo" candidates.


Eh ... Labour and Tories just secured huge vote totals. I'm not sure the UK, at least, equates to voters looking outside the established political class ...

Along similar lines, Bernie attempted to draw the lesson that standing up to the "ruling class" works. That, however, does not seem to match up well with what just happened in the UK. Class has lost a lot of meaning as far as voting patterns in the UK. Moreover, the Tories just led the way on Brexit, which alienated the traditional ruling class of Britain (The City, in particular).

I'll be curious to see opinion polling on Corbyn in the coming months. If he is still relatively unpopular (Trump polled better in the UK as recently as March, I believe), then that suggests to me that the lesson of this election is more about the missteps of Tories than the winning message of Corbyn/Labour.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1079 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:03 am

Corbyn doing well is the UK electorate "looking outside the political establishment", not Labour doing well. Corbyn did significantly better than Milliband, for example. What Corbyn did was galvanize a young base that showed up massively to support Labour -a base that would have been much less galvanized for a more traditional "new labour" candidate (ala Milliband, for example). The Tories did well in this election, they got a very high vote. The surprise was how well Labour did under Corbyn.

Outside the UK, France just had a runoff without the established socialists and republicans for thr first time in like forever. Winner is a centrist but he did it on an outsiders message and platform.

The world is in a time of transition and that feeds anxiety which leads to an "opening up" of traditional politics.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1080 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:25 am

Overall, I'm not sure how one can look at Brexit, Trump, Macron/Le Pen runoff, Corbyn doing much better than anticipated and not think that there is a very real anti-establishment movement (or at least openess to look outside the establishment). This isn't a series of very unlikely coincidences without an underlying cause.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1081 by jester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:35 am

Dog wrote:Overall, I'm not sure how one can look at Brexit, Trump, Macron/Le Pen runoff, Corbyn doing much better than anticipated and not think that there is a very real anti-establishment movement (or at least openess to look outside the establishment). This isn't a series of very unlikely coincidences without an underlying cause.


Brexit is anti-establishment ... voting for Labour and the Tories ... not so much. It's not like the Lib Dems got a vote surge or something. As said, my point stems from the fact that recent polling on Corbyn had him remaining very unpopular personally.

Trump and France falls into that analysis better, but it's important to note that while Macron and his party are "new" ... he was a significant victory for EU status quo in the end. As ever, shit is complicated.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1082 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:43 am

I'll grant that if Corbyn is unpopular and the Labour vote was in favour of the party despite Corbyn, then my narrative fails. I take it as the other way around (Corbyn galvanizing and bringing in youth vote in particular). Basically, I take it as Corbyn making Labour do well, not Labour making Corbyn do well.

Corbyn was deeply unpopular until the election, then he and Labour surged during the campaign. Is this due to voters liking him and his message and shedding previously held stereotypes? Is it due to voters holding their nose and voting Labour despite Corbyn? The narrative I've read points to him leading a very good campaign and drawing in votes, but it's hard to show causation.

I agree that whether or not he maintains popularity will be important.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1083 by AD » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:12 am

Dog calling Macron (ex-cabinet minister, centrist pro-European union, liberal) part of the anti-establishment movement...

:hillary:
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1084 by jester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:40 am

Dog wrote:I'll grant that if Corbyn is unpopular and the Labour vote was in favour of the party despite Corbyn, then my narrative fails. I take it as the other way around (Corbyn galvanizing and bringing in youth vote in particular). Basically, I take it as Corbyn making Labour do well, not Labour making Corbyn do well.

Corbyn was deeply unpopular until the election, then he and Labour surged during the campaign. Is this due to voters liking him and his message and shedding previously held stereotypes? Is it due to voters holding their nose and voting Labour despite Corbyn? The narrative I've read points to him leading a very good campaign and drawing in votes, but it's hard to show causation.

I agree that whether or not he maintains popularity will be important.


Here's the thing about Brexit and this vote, particularly the surge in young voters. That was the group strongest in the Remain camp. Moreover, part of the campaign narrative can be simplified to "May, WTF are you even doing/saying?"

In short, this election is really muddy as far as reading the tea leaves, with both parties carrying problematic banners in the wider view. The Tories allowed Brexit to enter our lives, and that pissed off a lot of voters (including the ruling class, Mr Sanders!). We are still dealing with the fallout from that. So, I guess I side with the Labour MP that cast cold water on the 2nd place finish ... Labour *should* do well in that political environment.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1085 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:06 am

AD wrote:Dog calling Macron (ex-cabinet minister, centrist pro-European union, liberal) part of the anti-establishment movement...

:hillary:


Yes. He was minister for a year, founded his own party and ran on an anti-establishment populist platform. He very much ran as an "outsider".
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1086 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:16 am

jester wrote:
Dog wrote:I'll grant that if Corbyn is unpopular and the Labour vote was in favour of the party despite Corbyn, then my narrative fails. I take it as the other way around (Corbyn galvanizing and bringing in youth vote in particular). Basically, I take it as Corbyn making Labour do well, not Labour making Corbyn do well.

Corbyn was deeply unpopular until the election, then he and Labour surged during the campaign. Is this due to voters liking him and his message and shedding previously held stereotypes? Is it due to voters holding their nose and voting Labour despite Corbyn? The narrative I've read points to him leading a very good campaign and drawing in votes, but it's hard to show causation.

I agree that whether or not he maintains popularity will be important.


Here's the thing about Brexit and this vote, particularly the surge in young voters. That was the group strongest in the Remain camp. Moreover, part of the campaign narrative can be simplified to "May, WTF are you even doing/saying?"

In short, this election is really muddy as far as reading the tea leaves, with both parties carrying problematic banners in the wider view. The Tories allowed Brexit to enter our lives, and that pissed off a lot of voters (including the ruling class, Mr Sanders!). We are still dealing with the fallout from that. So, I guess I side with the Labour MP that cast cold water on the 2nd place finish ... Labour *should* do well in that political environment.


I think "we" (upper middle class educated "elites" that have done relatively well) run the risk of seeing the larger picture from our own viewpoint (that things are fine), but there does seem to be much more anxiety in the electorate. Reading into the current political climate that traditional politics has "opened" to movements previously considered "marginal" is not unreasonable.

LibDems were much more "establishment" than Corbyn and were the only major party to remain pro-EU. They went nowhere. The electorate coalesced to Corbyn/Labour in opposition to the Tories. The Labour base was energized and reportedly the game changer was the mobilization of the youth vote which responded to Corbyn. The Tories did well as well (which runs counter to the narrtive that significant parts of the establishment flocked to Labour despite Corbyn). What I see in the UK is a politisation of the vote -with the British far right stunted by Brexit having already been achieved and the Tories embrassing it.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1087 by jester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:29 am

Ah, but Dog, part of current success has been the transfer of the British working class votes from Labour to the Tories ...

And, look, Corbyn's politics what they are ... let's not call the second major party in a fundamentally two party political system anti-establishment.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1088 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:30 am

I mean personally I don't feel a shift. In my bubble, I'd think that what used to be far left and far right would remain marginal and the correct approach would be to win the center and govern from the center. Events have however lead me to reconsider whether that is still the case. Personally I think the field of acceptable "political ideas" has widened considerably. In fact, the poles seem to be exerting significant attraction power.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1089 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:34 am

jester wrote:Ah, but Dog, part of current success has been the transfer of the British working class votes from Labour to the Tories ...

And, look, Corbyn's politics what they are ... let's not call the second major party in a fundamentally two party political system anti-establishment.


I'd call Trump an anti-establishment candidate even if leading one of the two major US parties.

And before banana jumps in saying Trump is a fraud. That's besides the point. He ran and sold himself as anti-establishment. As did Corbyn. As did Macron.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1090 by jester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:38 am

Dog wrote:
jester wrote:Ah, but Dog, part of current success has been the transfer of the British working class votes from Labour to the Tories ...

And, look, Corbyn's politics what they are ... let's not call the second major party in a fundamentally two party political system anti-establishment.


I'd call Trump an anti-establishment candidate even if leading one of the two major US parties.

And before banana jumps in saying Trump is a fraud. That's besides the point. He ran and sold himself as anti-establishment. As did Corbyn. As did Macron.


Party leadership in a Parliamentary system is fundamentally different from that of a presidential system. Corbyn was voted into power by his *party*. Trump was voted into power by direct democracy, in the face of often strenuous objection by "his" party.

Apples and oranges. Trump could not become the British PM ...
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1091 by AD » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:42 am

Dog wrote:Yes. He was minister for a year, founded his own party and ran on an anti-establishment populist platform. He very much ran as an "outsider".


Nothing screams populist like respecting rule of law, opening borders and slashing government jobs and mild austerity...
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1092 by AD » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:44 am

Dog wrote:and before banana jumps in saying Trump is a fraud. That's besides the point. He ran and sold himself as anti-establishment. As did Corbyn. As did Macron.


I really don't get how you keep saying that?
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1093 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:44 am

It's not like Corbyn isn't from the far left fringe of the Labour party and the Labour establishment tried, unsuccessfully, to dislodge him. Corbyn was brought up to party leadership by the party base, against the considerable efforts of the party elites to first prevent his rise and then to depose him.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1094 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:45 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:and before banana jumps in saying Trump is a fraud. That's besides the point. He ran and sold himself as anti-establishment. As did Corbyn. As did Macron.


I really don't get how you keep saying that?


Because Macron sold himself as an outsider. That was the basis of his campaign. I'm looking at messaging, not content. He ran and sold himself as an outsider. That was core.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1095 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:46 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:Yes. He was minister for a year, founded his own party and ran on an anti-establishment populist platform. He very much ran as an "outsider".


Nothing screams populist like respecting rule of law, opening borders and slashing government jobs and mild austerity...


Populism in running as an outsider representing the people against the failed ruling class.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1096 by AD » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:49 am

Dog wrote:Populism in running as an outsider representing the people against the failed ruling class.


Then every candidate of the last 100 years proclaiming change is a populist anti-establishment type.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1097 by jester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:51 am

Dog wrote:It's not like Corbyn isn't from the far left fringe of the Labour party and the Labour establishment tried, unsuccessfully, to dislodge him. Corbyn was brought up to party leadership by the party base, against the considerable efforts of the party elites to first prevent his rise and then to depose him.


... this doesn't make Labour any less part of the establishment. Just like Bernie ran as a Dem because he knew running independent of the establishment was a waste of time. Corbyn and Sanders are both trying to shift the politics of *establishment* parties to varying degrees.

This is one of the reasons some progressives want to break fully from the Dems.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1098 by jester » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:52 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:Populism in running as an outsider representing the people against the failed ruling class.


Then every candidate of the last 100 years proclaiming change is a populist anti-establishment type.


Right ... would we define Obama as anti-establishment? Every campaign needs a foil.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1099 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:52 am

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:Populism in running as an outsider representing the people against the failed ruling class.


Then every candidate of the last 100 years proclaiming change is a populist anti-establishment type.


Matter of tone and degree. His campaign very much centered on him and his party being outsiders. Heck, even look at the legislatives. The bulk of his MPs are newcomers.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1100 by Dog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:54 am

But you guys are right. There is no anti-establisment mood. Everything is business as usual in western politics.

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