The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:10 pm

Aye
10
63%
Naw
6
38%
don't give a shit. do what you want.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 16
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Shawnathan Horcoff
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Post #151 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:40 pm

[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
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Post #152 by Craig » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:50 pm

They contract out job description writing? That's not something they just scribble down 5 minutes before the posting goes up because it's so obviously meaningless?
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Post #153 by Murphy » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:53 pm

Mustafa wrote:Not really, I just wanted to expose NyQuil narrative, and the usual bilingual Canada hypocrisy.

The real fight would be to preserve Quebec demographic proportions. As long as Québec' demographics stay the way they are il n'y a pas péril en la demeure.

We could achieve indépendance in 50 years for all I care.


Yeah, but you talk about the proportion. Alot of that is due to the fact that immigration is changing the proportion.
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Post #154 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:49 pm

AD wrote:So.. NyQ.. what do you do now?


Mostly meetings and calls today.

Things are starting to heat up in anticipation for the September sprint when everyone simultaneously realizes how much has to be done by Christmas.

Lord Chezz wrote:Even for us swamp dwellers in New Brunswick?


It's a little trickier to be outside of the NCR but we have an economist in Halifax that we work with on occasion.

In general though, if you're in the regions, you have to rely on other types of work from time to time or have a pretty decent pension to augment the federal contract work.

Ultimately, there are federal institutions all across the country and you can develop pretty solid working relationships with some of the satellite offices if you can get your foot in the door.

Lord Chezz wrote:Most managers do not have the time or skill to do this effectively so they contract out to people like Nyquil and his minions.


It's also often related to significant organizational transformation - like a recent contract associated with integration of Passport Canada into Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

All of a sudden you have a new group of employees who may be doing similar work to the employees in an organization they've moved to, and yet they have different job classifications and are being compensated differently or their activities aren't aligned.

That raises the possibilities for grievances and appeals to the union etc. as LC outlined.

There can be a requirement to rewrite 50 or 60 job descriptions within a very small period of time.
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Post #155 by Craig » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:29 pm

You're all parasites.
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Post #156 by PPJ » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:31 pm

Got a knife that'll do a job on a parasite Craig?
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Post #157 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:31 pm

Craig wrote:You're all parasites.


My primary skill is to be a babel fish between scientists, regulators and decision-makers.

So your statement as far as I'm concerned is correct.
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Post #158 by Craig » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:31 pm

No. :why:
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Post #159 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:53 pm

Mustafa wrote:The only part of bill 101 that i'll keep is immigrants who don't have english as a mother tongue must attend french school, wich was almost non-existent before bill 101.


I actually have no issue with this.

Mustafa wrote:The demographic weight of Francophones out of Quebec is very important for them, it's a lot of trouble to even have education in french in most regions that aren't Ottawa or New-Brunswick, le nombre dicte tout. And if young Quebecers are leaving the whole fight behind them, french-tards from the rest of the country should follow.


There is still a lot of effort underway to protect French language rights across the country. Mrs_NyQuil's firm is involved in quite a lot of it. From ensuring French representation on hospital boards in New Brunswick to Michel Thibodeau, I've had a front-row seat. I don't see people giving up.

Mustafa wrote:I don't like the relativism that often come from federalists argument, that both culture needs to be treated equally, for sure it needs to be, that's why there is Bill 101 or else it would be a lost battle.


Personally, I don't really believe the Two Solitudes are as relevant today and the "two nations" concept to Canada is a bit of an anachronism.

The West is emerging as its own cultural, political and economic power with a contentious relationship with Ontario at best.

Their values are quite different from central English-Canadians, as expressed in their electoral results and political/social positions.

Regional demarcations are more relevant today than the old bi-cultural model that worked when you had Upper Canada and Lower Canada and a smattering of Maritimers.

Mustafa wrote:PQ is real bullshit, nobody likes them anymore.


Well that's a relief.

I've always been a bit leery of parties that rely on strong ideological foundations because they have this inherent inability to adapt.

Then again, I'm from Ottawa, and I'm leery of anything that's a little too loud and obnoxious.

Mustafa wrote:You are talking like if making french people the smallest minority possible and making Canada a english country wasn't a project, "it just happened" which is completly the contrary, the very basis of our corrupted electoral system is to make sure french becomes/remain a minority.


I thought it was to reinforce regional divisions to the detriment of a clear national policy.
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Post #160 by NyQuil » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:05 pm

Psycho Papa Joe wrote:Given my propensity for off the colour humor, people like NyQuil make my job a living hell. Fuck you assholes and your sensitivity training. :madfawk:


Technically, my job is to make people think they came up with a solution that I have already laid out for them.

I make people feel really smart.
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Post #161 by RTWAP » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:33 am

Mustafa wrote:First that's Ottawa, right next to Quebec, secondo less than 60% of Francophones speak french at home in Ontario, that's a statistical fact, also the french population of Ontario is growing less quickly than the english population, it has been like that for over a century now, right now the growing speed is about half of the english growing speed, and that's not including the high rates of assimilation for each generation. So i don't see how your lil' story doesn't fit my narrative.

But yeah this story of the French population doing great in Canada has been told for quite a while now, i'd take time to look at the demographics since the confederation, or even from 30 years ago when i was born, and tell me that everything is mighty fine. That, my friend, doesn't fit your narrative.


I wonder how much of the english population growth is attributed to immigration?

And to be clear, I don't think the French population is "doing great". I'm just not convinced that people need to be forced to use it. It seems like giving up. Like saying "French sucks. Nobody would use it if we didn't force them to." There are more reasons to operate in French in Quebec than anywhere else. Certainly more than in Ottawa. The concern about "losing" French seems like an overblown attempt to find an external threat that will tie everyone together. Increasing internal cohesion and external alienation are good things if you want to separate from those nasty anglos.
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Post #162 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:09 am

Mkbét and Mufasa are the two most important people in my life. : )

[CENTER]death to all French[/CENTER]
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Post #163 by mayoradamwest » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:15 am

Gilles Proulx was invited onto Montreal’s Radio X last Friday after writing a column in the Journal de Montréal on the Israel-Hamas conflict. “No need to be an expert to say that Israel could make Washington, Paris or Ottawa bend, knowing in advance that its diaspora, well established, will make any government submit!” he wrote in the Journal.

Speaking to Radio X, he elaborated on his thinking, suggesting Jews historically provoke hate and persecution. “The diaspora is scattered around the world, where they take economic control, provoke the hatred of local nations, whether it is in Spain, for example, with the Inquisition, or again later with Adolf Hitler,” he said.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/13/quebec-jewish-community-disturbed-by-lack-of-outrage-over-columnists-anti-semitic-radio-rant/
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Post #164 by PPJ » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:18 am

In other words, according to Proulx, Jews are that hot chick in the mini skirt, who complains after getting gang raped.
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Post #165 by AD » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:19 am

This falls into the Zionist narrative. Gilles Proulx is an agent of internation zionism.

:paranoid:
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Post #166 by IcE ColD » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:28 am

Psycho Papa Joe wrote:In other words, according to Proulx, Jews are that hot chick in the mini skirt, who complains after getting gang raped.


Coincidentally, I think he already had such a rant on that topic a couple of years ago, so this totally fits the bill.
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Post #167 by AD » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:32 am

Which, imo, is a good thing for the separatists and not necessarily good for the federalists no matter what the tone in the media.

Separatism may be on the decline as well, but the bloc is helping the decline not fighting against it. in that sense, Mario Beaulieu is right in doing what he's doing and Gilles Duceppe's strategy of constructive dialogue was not. (if you're a separatist of course).
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Post #168 by Ismellofhockey » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:14 am

Dog wrote:AD, could you translate this into understandable?


I'll help since AD seems to have neglected his duties...

Ahem... I may be a little rusty, but I believe he is saying: "Shut the fuck up and come back when you know something, anything."
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Post #169 by FH2002 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:47 pm

Harper weighs in on the independence movement, generally speaking of course.

Skip to 12:40.
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Post #170 by Germz » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:09 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Scotland is tipping


Unlikely.
senate wrote:As goes the Canadian Senate, so go the Ottawa Senators.
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Post #171 by Macbeth » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:29 pm

[CENTER]Image
[font="Comic Sans MS"]Pertinent, always.[/font][/CENTER]
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Post #172 by jester » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:43 pm

Thomas Malthus wrote:If this was Quebec could you ever imagine Harper doing this?


Or saying this?


http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/world/scotland-referendum-prime-minister-david-cameron-warns-vote-is-forever-1.2766415


What is fascinating is how much this is about a division between "The City" and everyone else in Britain ... that is a longstanding reality in Britain, but really has come to foreground on this issue, which has left the Tories with almost nothing they can say.
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Post #173 by AD » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:16 pm

I read an interesting piece on the norther english towns and their desire to be associated with a future Scotland rather than a London-centric England.
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Post #174 by jester » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:58 pm

I mean, you could extrapolate this stuff to the disgust we've seen in the US directed towards corporate America and the 1% class ... we just don't have anyone that can really go down the secession route in response to that.
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Post #175 by habfan4 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:07 pm

jester wrote:What is fascinating is how much this is about a division between "The City" and everyone else in Britain ... that is a longstanding reality in Britain, but really has come to foreground on this issue, which has left the Tories with almost nothing they can say.


The irony being that many Scots find Edinburgh similarly distasteful, particularly Glaswegians.
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Post #176 by jester » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:09 pm

habfan4 wrote:The irony being that many Scots find Edinburgh similarly distasteful, particularly Glaswegians.


Well, they aren't actually "Scottish," of course. What, with those soft accents! I spent a year at St. Andrews, and the difference once you get outside the Edinburgh bubble is extreme.
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Post #177 by habfan4 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:21 pm

jester wrote:Well, they aren't actually "Scottish," of course. What, with those soft accents! I spent a year at St. Andrews, and the difference once you get outside the Edinburgh bubble is extreme.


The real question is whether that sentiment translates into potential nationalist voters not seeing a distinction between being dictated to by a twit from Westminister or a twit from Holyrood and voting accordingly.
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Post #178 by jester » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:27 pm

I would assume that the edges there have been considerably softened for the immediate. If it's a choice between Edinburgh and London, then the Scottish nationalist is going to choose Edinburgh even if they feel distinct from the southeastern portion of Scotland. Of course, the Highlands were always the traditional rebels against English rule until they got slaughtered at Culloden.
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Post #179 by Mufasa » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:46 am

[SIZE="7"]GO SCOTLAND GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]
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Post #180 by habfan4 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:09 am

I'm guessing that the No side will carry the day by a very slim margin. If not it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. The notion that a "nation to nation" negotiation is a negotiation between equals will be the first fariytale put to the sword.
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Post #181 by PPJ » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:13 am

habfan4 wrote:I'm guessing that the No side will carry the day by a very slim margin. If not it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. The notion that a "nation to nation" negotiation is a negotiation between equals will be the first fariytale put to the sword.


The Czech Republic and Slovakia had a relatively peaceful divorce.
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Post #182 by Mufasa » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:21 am

Psycho Papa Joe wrote:The Czech Republic and Slovakia had a relatively peaceful divorce.


Shhhhhhh, you are debunking the fear tactics so dear to people who hate freedom.
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Post #183 by habfan4 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:30 am

Psycho Papa Joe wrote:The Czech Republic and Slovakia had a relatively peaceful divorce.


In terms of population the Czech Republic was twice as large as Slovakia. England is nearly 11 times the size of Scotland.

Any negotiations between an independent Scotland and England will be more like negotiations between the US and Canada. Which is to say more than a little tilted in one direction.
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Post #184 by habfan4 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:37 am

Mufasa wrote:Shhhhhhh, you are debunking the fear tactics so dear to people who hate freedom.


I've got no problem at all with this process and I certainly give the Scots credit for asking a straightforward question. That said this is uncharted territory and anyone who thinks that a breakup is guarantted to be smooth (and that any settlement/arrangement will be even) either has a crystal ball or is perhaps looking at this through rose coloured glasses.
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Post #185 by PPJ » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:40 am

Scots go to the polls today

Image

The nation eagerly awaits the results

Image

Exit polls show 53-47 for the no Side

Image
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Post #186 by PPJ » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:45 am

Big#D wrote:they both wanted it.



when one side doesn't want it, things can get a little bitter and then the larger partner will often get the upper hand.


You really think the UK has the appetite for another Ireland senario?
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Post #187 by AD » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:46 am

habfan4 wrote:In terms of population the Czech Republic was twice as large as Slovakia. England is nearly 11 times the size of Scotland.

Any negotiations between an independent Scotland and England will be more like negotiations between the US and Canada. Which is to say more than a little tilted in one direction.


What negotiations? I'm not necessarily in favour of a yes vote in Scotland, but you're acting as if they're some sort of prize they need to barter over once the vote is done. What would that be? And the bartering power would somehow be relative to the size of the populations of the parties?

Scotland will be in a fine position to negotiate once the US, France, Germany, etc. recognize the results. Which in this case seems like something that rather clearly would happen seeing as the Brits themselves negotiated the process and pre-aproved recognition.
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Post #188 by habfan4 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:47 am

All of my relatives in Glasgow will be voting Yes and then taking advantage of the extended hours for Pubs to watch the results. The only thing I'm sure of is that most of them won't remember the result of the referendum when they wake up tomorrow.
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Post #189 by habfan4 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:56 am

AD wrote:What negotiations? I'm not necessarily in favour of a yes vote in Scotland, but you're acting as if they're some sort of prize they need to barter over once the vote is done. What would that be? And the bartering power would somehow be relative to the size of the populations of the parties?

Scotland will be in a fine position to negotiate once the US, France, Germany, etc. recognize the results. Which in this case seems like something that rather clearly would happen seeing as the Brits themselves negotiated the process and pre-aproved recognition.


Your second point is a strawman argument, I'm not arguing about the legitimacy of the result (whatever it may be). Only that the negotiations would be lopsided in England's favour. I'm a little surprised that you think a negotiation between states is a negotiation between equals. Please see the EU and German influence thereon as an example.

In terms of what would have to be negotiated? Let's start with the use of the Pound. Then move onto military hardware and assets. The Scots want the UK nukes gone but they're keen to hold onto the rest which is no surprise as the Royal Navy and the UK armed forces in general are huge employers in Scotland.
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Post #190 by AD » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:10 am

habfan4 wrote:Your second point is a strawman argument, I'm not arguing about the legitimacy of the result (whatever it may be). Only that the negotiations would be lopsided in England's favour. I'm a little surprised that you think a negotiation between states is a negotiation between equals. Please see the EU and German influence thereon as an example.

In terms of what would have to be negotiated? Let's start with the use of the Pound. Then move onto military hardware and assets. The Scots want the UK nukes gone but they're keen to hold onto the rest which is no surprise as the Royal Navy and the UK armed forces in general are huge employers in Scotland.


I didn't say they negotiate as equals. I am merely pointing out that there is no single issue on which to settle and for which bargaining power is set. And definitely no issue on which bargaining power is dependant of population. For example, Scotland would have much more leverage than the UK on what to do with the US-leased nukes on its territory. But much less leverage than the UK on what to do with the army bases and personel that are stationed at this time. But then would gain leverage over time if Scotland can set up its own forces.

The use of the Pound can be negotiated, but an independant Scotland can also unilateraly decide to use the Pound (see e.g., Panama using the US$ with no agreement whatsoever with the US). That negotiation also has nothing to do with the relative size of the population and everything to do with the European Union and the Euro zone's recognition/desire to let Scotland in. If Scotland gets to chose to join the Euro, their bargaining power on the use of the Pound becomes very much expanded.

All I'm saying is that deciding that the Checkoslovakia separation is not a good comparison based on the variation in population of the separating states is simplistic, at best.

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