The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses

Should Scotland be an independent country?

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #951 by Westy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:44 pm

Dog wrote:From what I read, police had intervened in that black flag gathering but ultimately released the people there because they could not find the flag.

But even then, lets go on. What do you do with someone with a black flag? Say he's a citizen. You detain him? For how long? You put him on a watch list? They do that, btw. But what does a watch list entail? Some higher "threat" suspects are under constant surveillance. They rank threats. How do you rank a guy in a park with a black flag? If you don't rank threats, how does that affect ressources? You watch all online activity and detain everybody espousing radical rightwing, leftwing or islamist statements? What's the threshold?

When something happens, it's easy to say "they should have known". Take for granted that they get alot of false-positives (people with various radical ideologies signaled that never lead to anything). Stop talking in after the fact selective data -no question they should have stopped the guy that did it, the question is how do you tell the guy that will do it from the guy that won't BEFOREHAND. Know that your standard will apply to all groups (not just muslims).

Go, let us have some objective standards that you would implement that differ from the current standards.


You charge them with incitement of hatred, which means imprisonment or at the least a heavy fine.

I'd say the current British watchlist is pretty ineffective if a known extremist can travel to Libya and come back with no red flags popping up. Are you saying that a situation like that is absolutely normal procedure or simply a mistake?
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #952 by AD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:04 pm

Dog wrote:Right wing thinking is individualism. Left wing collectivism. We are neither lone wolves nor ants. Humens are somewhere in between (we're extremely highly collaborative for a large animal). So hermits probably have it more wrong than communists, but communists probably don't have a realistic grasp of human nature either. Our interractions are loosely game theory based (loosely because we are bad at math and act on morals as a blunt proxy for calculation) a blending of individual payoffs and collective payoffs. And that is before we take into account that we evolved our collective instincts in smaller, more cohesive groups.

So which one is more rational? Right wing or left wing? Seems like a bit of both to me.


I don't agree with your right wing left wing categorization of the Westy-MAW positions.

There is nothing inherently racist about the right wing ideology. There are racist-xenophobic AND inclusive right wing ideologies.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #953 by AD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:07 pm

Just look at the microcosm of the Canadian Tories. You had Bernier presumably more right wing than Leitch, but much more inclusive. Chong, more inclusive than Alexander. Etc.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #954 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:13 pm

Westy wrote:
You charge them with incitement of hatred, which means imprisonment or at the least a heavy fine.

I'd say the current British watchlist is pretty ineffective if a known extremist can travel to Libya and come back with no red flags popping up. Are you saying that a situation like that is absolutely normal procedure or simply a mistake?


Many terrorists had done time. Didn't prevent them from committing attacks later on. They could have arrested them with sufficient evidence -would it have changed anything? Probably not (the attack happened years down the road). The thing is you can be more repressive but the question is would it be more effective or create more problems? Instead of islamists, lets take rightwinger extremists that kill innocent worshipers in a mosque or a black church. Of course, the perpetrators "should" have been stopped beforehand. But beforehand, you don't know who will commit crimes. Lots of people hold right wing extremist views -do you lock them all up? How long? Where's the line of what is "dangerous right wing extremism". If you lock too many right wingers for little reason, does that simply create more right wing extremists (the repression radicalizes sympathetic rightwing extremists). There is a balancing act in preventing rightwing extremist violence. Same reasoning holds for preventing islamist violence. It's honestly a question of effectiveness without, you know, arbitrarily detaining people for no reason (which can radicalize non radical elements and create greater problems).

I'm fine with enforcing hate laws in theory. In practice, some cases will be clear cut many others will be fuzzy. Ideologically, I wouldn't mind a tougher crackdown on intolerant speech (of all kinds) but practically I think it will backfire. So, it's a balance.

On the travel to Libya (the Manchester dude), it depends on the particulars. From my understanding, he was a British born citizen on a "watch list" but with low risk assessment. So, either they goofed on their assessment (possible) or they didn't have sufficient info beforehand to warrant a higher risk rating. To prevent somebody from travelling, you need a certain threshold of proof. Further, is there any evidence that he would not have been radicalized if he was not allowed to travel? Many terrorists don't travel. Does forcing them to stay in britain make britain safer?

Both your proposed measure (greater sanctions for hate speech and travel bans) are unlikely to have prevented the attacks. What more needs doing?

It's not that I'm against increasing protective measures, it's that I'm quite unclear that current measure are inadequate. Could be -but I'm tempted to think western governments take terrorism seriously.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #955 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:16 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:Right wing thinking is individualism. Left wing collectivism. We are neither lone wolves nor ants. Humens are somewhere in between (we're extremely highly collaborative for a large animal). So hermits probably have it more wrong than communists, but communists probably don't have a realistic grasp of human nature either. Our interractions are loosely game theory based (loosely because we are bad at math and act on morals as a blunt proxy for calculation) a blending of individual payoffs and collective payoffs. And that is before we take into account that we evolved our collective instincts in smaller, more cohesive groups.

So which one is more rational? Right wing or left wing? Seems like a bit of both to me.


I don't agree with your right wing left wing categorization of the Westy-MAW positions.

There is nothing inherently racist about the right wing ideology. There are racist-xenophobic AND inclusive right wing ideologies.


My comment wasn't on maw-westy. I speak in generalities, banana. My comment is that neither right wing nor left wing thinking is inherently more rational.

Regarding xenophobia, i think the more you "atomize" society the more "out groups" you have. So, i'd think you'd find more xenophobia in right wing groups.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #956 by AD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:17 pm

In a lot of ways.. governments are taking this too seriously. Media too.

In fact, Westy's reaction to terrorism is exactly the expected and wanted result from the terrorists. The more Westy gets angry, and the more he wants the official position to be one of anti Islam, the more the radicalized muslims win.

Ignoring this, like ignoring an internet troll, is really the toughest thing we can do against terrorism. It takes courage. Screaming like a 3 year old that wet his pants is pretty much telling ISIS that they're winning.

Bravo on helping the terrorists Westy. You treasonous fuck.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #957 by AD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:20 pm

Dog wrote:Regarding xenophobia, i think the more you "atomize" society the more "out groups" you have. So, i'd think you'd find more xenophobia in right wing groups.


That is probable, but pushed to its extreme of individualism - or the extreme of collectivism, right wing and left wing thought is fundamentally un-xeonophobic.
The right can get to the point where we are all equal individuals.

The left gets to a point where we are all working together regardless of origin.

Its just before the absolute extreme that there are out groups at all.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #958 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:27 pm

AD wrote:In a lot of ways.. governments are taking this too seriously. Media too.

In fact, Westy's reaction to terrorism is exactly the expected and wanted result from the terrorists. The more Westy gets angry, and the more he wants the official position to be one of anti Islam, the more the radicalized muslims win.

Ignoring this, like ignoring an internet troll, is really the toughest thing we can do against terrorism. It takes courage. Screaming like a 3 year old that wet his pants is pretty much telling ISIS that they're winning.

Bravo on helping the terrorists Westy. You treasonous fuck.


Exactly. The reason for attacking random innocent people
Is precisely to provoke backlash. Terrorists want a clash of civilizations. They are trying to provoke one. The adequate response is to crack down on extremists but keep calm and not generalize extremist acts to wider populations. Dylann Roof wanted to spark a race war too.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #959 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:32 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:Regarding xenophobia, i think the more you "atomize" society the more "out groups" you have. So, i'd think you'd find more xenophobia in right wing groups.


That is probable, but pushed to its extreme of individualism - or the extreme of collectivism, right wing and left wing thought is fundamentally un-xeonophobic.
The right can get to the point where we are all equal individuals.

The left gets to a point where we are all working together regardless of origin.

Its just before the absolute extreme that there are out groups at all.


Yeah. Live and let live extreme and collective unison extreme. Neither are realistic (neither reflect what we are), so we are forced to try to find a happy in between mix. Left-Right then tends to become (but not always) a battle between wider vs more narrow definition of group. And I'm not saying we do away with group definitions -we wouldn't survive without them. I just like to relax the boundaries on the belief that wider cooperation (as much as possible without being stupid) is better.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #960 by Westy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:38 pm

You shouldn't criticize Islam or else that will lead to further radicalization. And as we all know terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. Logic.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #961 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:40 pm

Dog wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
Dog wrote:Xenophobia is a topic worth talking about. I'm just saying it's not qualitatively more dumb than alot of other beliefs.


Sure it is. Weakening social ties can have negative spill over in political and economic processes. If it's harmful, it's dumber than something harmless at the least.

Besides, I suspect you'd already say that keeping out someone because they were poor was a smarter reason that keeping someone out because off their religion. Am I wrong?


On the first paragraph, does that mean we make no distinction between people for fear of weakening social ties? What are good distinctions and bad distinctions? The moment you make those distinctions, you are seperating groups based on their "value". Like I said earlier, genetic racism seems to be contradicted by genetics research (which incidentally was not available in the first half of the 20th century, in fact scientific belief at the time weighted for genetic racism). So, at current state of the science, you should not be a genetic racist. Fortunately relatively few people are nowdays. Most people are cultural racists, nowdays. Most people think the black dude that acts like you is fine. It's the ones that don't that aren't. Is that rational? If not, is any cultural hierarchy rational? If not, why not? Is blind non-selectiveness more rational?

On the second paragraph, I'm not sure I follow -could you rephrase?


Of course it doesn't mean that, but it does mean you need to have a better reason. The charter of rights and freedoms, for example, deals with that question nicely.

I think you're asking if I think certain forms of racism are dumber than others... Yes. It's all harmful and stupid, but I would say that as there are more negative effects you could say it gets even more stupid. Degrees of harm I guess?
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #962 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:41 pm

Westy wrote:You shouldn't criticize Islam or else that will lead to further radicalization. And as we all know terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. Logic.


Why does London scare you more than Orlando?
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #963 by AD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:42 pm

You're mistaking the word "criticize" to mean "put people in prison".

That's very understandable for someone with your extremely low IQ, Westy. Let me help you. Random search and seizure and imprisonment is not the same as criticism. Criticism is loosely defined as : the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.

While as preventative detention based on less than complete evidence does not mean "the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes".

Hope that helps.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #964 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:43 pm

AD wrote:In a lot of ways.. governments are taking this too seriously. Media too.

In fact, Westy's reaction to terrorism is exactly the expected and wanted result from the terrorists. The more Westy gets angry, and the more he wants the official position to be one of anti Islam, the more the radicalized muslims win.

Ignoring this, like ignoring an internet troll, is really the toughest thing we can do against terrorism. It takes courage. Screaming like a 3 year old that wet his pants is pretty much telling ISIS that they're winning.

Bravo on helping the terrorists Westy. You treasonous fuck.


We can't all have a stiff upper lip. :wink:
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #965 by Westy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:48 pm

How badly is Poland losing this war against ISIS right now? Refusing to accept any Muslim refugees even in the face of EU pressure. I mean how dare the Polish government generalise an entire population like that. ISIS will surely mark that down as a victory against the Poles, meanwhile jihadists will continue to carry out random attacks in UK and France.

France and UK winning so hard right now.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #966 by AD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:49 pm

I, for one, would gladly send you to live in the Polish utopia you seek.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #967 by mayoradamwest » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:52 pm

I'm a huge fan of poland's king
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #968 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:59 pm

You can criticize Islam all you want. Personally, I'm an atheist. I think Islam, in as far as it claims to describe truths, is wrong. I think the same of Christianity.

The link between terrorism and Islam is harder to make. Just like the link between Christianity and some right wing terrorism is hard to make.

I don't think that religion has nothing to do with religious violence. I think religion in general leads to more ridgid conservative thought that makes interracting with out groups more difficult. I think there is a religious backlash against modernity that can be seen in many regions of the world. It can also be seen in a nationalist backlash. Groups are co-mingling more in the modern world and many people have a conservative instinct to reaffirm their group identity. American evangelicals worry me. Hindu nationalists worry me. White nationalists worry me. And yes, Islamic nationalists worry me.

Putting other radical movements to the side, there is obviously a problem with islamic terrorism. First and foremost amongst muslims. Shia-sunni infighting is the cause of the vast bulk of muslim terrorist attacks. The region (middle-east) is in absolute turmoil -not leastbof which because of western interventions and invasions, but also because of demographics (there is a demographic bump of young people with no jobs). You mix backlash against modernism with frustrated young men raised in a region of chaos and you probably have a recipe for disaster. Which is probably why you have middle-eastern rooted terrorism but very little from non middle-eastern muslim countries.

An interesting consideration is that many islamic terrorists in western countries will be western born or have lived in the west for a long time. Many second gen muslims in europe appear to be becoming more religious than their parents. It seems to be a youth identity thing. Again probably related to high number of youths with little to do (high unemployment) and little integration. Integration of muslim populations in europe is a problem -but that speaks to the host population's exclusionary practices and the immigrant population's integrationary practices. Look at the US, blacks are still quite marginalized after centuries.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #969 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:06 pm

Westy wrote:How badly is Poland losing this war against ISIS right now? Refusing to accept any Muslim refugees even in the face of EU pressure. I mean how dare the Polish government generalise an entire population like that. ISIS will surely mark that down as a victory against the Poles, meanwhile jihadists will continue to carry out random attacks in UK and France.

France and UK winning so hard right now.


How do you feel about keeping Poles out of the UK?

And Brits out of Canada, for that matter.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #970 by AD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:17 pm

Well... so far we have determined that Westy is not very smart, pretty deplorable, definitely bigoted and an ISIS collaborator.

I know who is definitely winning this discussion.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #971 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:55 pm

I like to try to perplex pure anti-Islam folk by asking them to consider why the likes of bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed never strapped anything to their chests and dove into a crowd despite the great rewards awaiting them in Paradise. :wink:
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #972 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:56 pm

i'was in poland in february. I have some zlotly you can borrow
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #973 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:30 pm

Looks like the British counter-terror net will get wider, which is probably not a bad thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... SApp_Other
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #974 by Dog » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:25 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #975 by PredsFan77 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:27 pm

Tracy May doesn't care about white people
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #976 by Dog » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:42 am

Discussion of actual and proposed UK counter-terror tools. Nothing earth shattering.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... SApp_Other
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #977 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:48 am

I spent many years posting on English forums. It is only a matter of time before they find me here. Image
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #978 by Dog » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:01 am

Edward vs James Bond. My money's on Edward.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #979 by mayoradamwest » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:52 pm

Corbyn may win
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #980 by PredsFan77 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:57 pm

some want to see the world burn
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #981 by The Bytown Boozer » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:23 pm

I predict a Labour victory. :magic_negro:

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #982 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:15 pm

Corbyn is correct. Liberal interventionist policies are causing terrorism abroad and at home.

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http://markcurtis.info/2017/06/07/a-lon ... and-libya/
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #983 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:18 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:I predict a Labour victory. :magic_negro:


I would love to be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #984 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:20 pm

Dog wrote:Looks like the British counter-terror net will get wider, which is probably not a bad thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... SApp_Other


Alternative suggestion: stop arming extremists and supporting regimes that do so.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #985 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:36 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #986 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:21 pm

Here's one poll that has Labour ahead. Most others don't. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/election ... ive-winner

But it's cause for some optimism.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #987 by PredsFan77 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:34 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #988 by Dog » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:52 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:Here's one poll that has Labour ahead. Most others don't. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/election ... ive-winner

But it's cause for some optimism.


Last polls are all over he place. From Tory +12 to Labour +2.

The London attacks brought massive volatility to the polls. They were trending nicely towards Labour up until the attacks and have been all over the place since.

This is pretty much a toss up.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #989 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:55 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #990 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:38 am

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #991 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Based on exit poll.

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #992 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:14 pm

I am becoming hard.

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #993 by PredsFan77 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:21 pm

Roflcopter
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #994 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:23 pm

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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #995 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:42 pm

Jezza might still be PM. Imagine the Tory butthurt.
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #996 by PredsFan77 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:43 pm

well, clarkson was always better than May
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #997 by The Bytown Boozer » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:45 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:I predict a Labour victory. :magic_negro:


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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #998 by PredsFan77 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:52 pm

labour isnt gonna win yo
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #999 by Dog » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:33 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:labour isnt gonna win yo


Labour "coalition of chaos" not impossible, yo!
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Re: The politics of Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Post #1000 by PredsFan77 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:44 pm

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