Institutional Racism vs. Black People GDT

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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jester
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Post #301 by jester » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:09 am

mcphee wrote:When Demps posted something last night, I replied kind of negatively towards progress in that regard. I got thinking about it, and I'm not sure how best to explain it. I like to watch music documentaries. I was watching one currently on HBO about James Brown, and I was unaware of his connection to civil rights activities, and I had to explain to the kids watching with me that you need to understand where we were at that time to understand the points that were being made. So of course there's been all kinds of progress, but for every area that there is, you have to look at it.

Yes you can vote but we'll do our damndest to make sure you don't register. Today.

It seems that there is social acceptance as long as black people try and act more like white people, but not 100% because they're more fun at parties.


You absolutely have to look at it, and we are far from perfect. I think it sanitizes the past considerably to not recognize just how far we have come, however. I also think modern US racism has become closely linked with economic class antagonism, which has a very long history in our British intellectual heritage. This is not to dismiss the existence of pure racism, and the very real institutional and systemic racism that plagues the US. It is important, however, to recognize the shift that has taken place over the past few centuries and continues to evolve.
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Post #302 by jester » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:17 am

mcphee wrote:I'm sure there's been shit written about this but a power base, mainly but not exclusively white, remains a power base by keeping those without power, or $, in their place. So fueling trailer park whites to hate housing project blacks keeps the old chain secure doesn't it ?


One of the key arguments in Edmund Morgan's American Slavery, American Freedom concerns the systematic and cynical cultivation of racism by white plantation owners among poor whites (mostly talking Virginia here, in the 18th c.). When I teach on this subject matter, it's always fun to read that book (somewhat old now), because it gets at some very interesting aspects of US culture that distinguished it from the British mother ship. In Europe, the dominant social divisions revolved around class for a very, very long time. In the slave societies of the West Indies and US South, the societal glue could not be class based due to the threat posed by slaves ... so the elite bound poor whites to them through racism: "you may be poor, but you are not a slave and you are not black!"

Fast forward to Richard Nixon exploiting the same basic political dynamics to win over the US South, and you have the modern GOP.
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Post #303 by mcphee » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:06 am

jester wrote:One of the key arguments in Edmund Morgan's American Slavery, American Freedom concerns the systematic and cynical cultivation of racism by white plantation owners among poor whites (mostly talking Virginia here, in the 18th c.). When I teach on this subject matter, it's always fun to read that book (somewhat old now), because it gets at some very interesting aspects of US culture that distinguished it from the British mother ship. In Europe, the dominant social divisions revolved around class for a very, very long time. In the slave societies of the West Indies and US South, the societal glue could not be class based due to the threat posed by slaves ... so the elite bound poor whites to them through racism: "you may be poor, but you are not a slave and you are not black!"

Fast forward to Richard Nixon exploiting the same basic political dynamics to win over the US South, and you have the modern GOP.


You that's kind of what I wanted to say. Racism as racism is kind of stupid, and accumulation of wealth and power must take some smarts, [I wouldn't know for sure], so racism becomes a powerful tool.
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Post #304 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:24 am

Midtown Atlanta swarming with cops this morning. Helicopters were in the sky.

Because Wells Fargo got a couple of windows smashed during a protest. Our corporate friends and neighbors so inconvenienced.
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Post #305 by jester » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:46 am

I don't know about today (weather is complete shit here), but last night Philadelphia cops were out en masse in Center City.
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Post #306 by Dog » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:55 am

Cops are out en masse in Montreal today too. Mostly has to due with municipal union workers protesting cuts to their pensions, though.
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Post #307 by NyQuil » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:21 pm

I want to hear about Witness 48.

"Shit, sorry, I was remembering an episode of Blue Bloods."
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Post #308 by clawfirst » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:31 pm

OK I want to hear witness 45's story.
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Post #309 by Bernie Bernbaum » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:34 pm

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Post #310 by NyQuil » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:39 pm

The fiction of manners
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Post #311 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:43 pm

embracedbias wrote:I should also mention that this woman once budged in front of me while lining up for a drink during a conference.


I myself have been known to hobnob with superstars of various kinds of interpretive communities.
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Post #312 by clawfirst » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:52 pm

I watched five minutes of that shit EB. she should not speak in public. text only.
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Post #313 by PredsFan77 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:27 pm

SHOOT FIRST ASK QUESTIONS SECOND
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Post #314 by Pennywise » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:27 pm

Image

I should probably de-friend, right?
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Post #315 by Cao » Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:45 am

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Post #316 by Walrus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:38 am

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Post #317 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:40 am

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Post #318 by Westy » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:51 am



That's the definition of shoot first.
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Post #319 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:34 pm

embracedbias wrote:I went to supper with Daniel Dennett once. He didn't speak to me directly despite sitting beside me. There was at least a dozen of us, you see. Only one other student though (who Dennett also did not address). Some fellas at the Centre for Theoretical Neuroscience just published a paper in Science and Dennett came in to give a talk on consciousness. I got the sense that he had given the same talk many times before.


Dennett is truly a star. In spite of his unfortunate participations in theistic debates.
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Post #320 by Cao » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:43 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]


Ferguson, MO: Where the Wild Things Are
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Post #321 by RTWAP » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:11 pm

embracedbias wrote:Yes, quite unfortunate. She is very accomplished though.


As public speakers go, I've heard much worse. I had no problem listening for 17 minutes, not include frequent breaks for fapping.
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Post #322 by Pennywise » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:48 pm

Shredder wrote:Image

I should probably de-friend, right?


This ones a little hard to decide if I should un-friend. It's a point.

Image
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Post #323 by Captain Roy Bringus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:50 pm

Shredder wrote:This ones a little hard to decide if I should un-friend. It's a point.

Image


Defriend because that lower picture isn't Mike Brown.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/kansas-city-review-posting-fake-michael-brown-pic-facebook-report-article-1.1909021
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Post #324 by AD » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:50 pm

And what point is that?
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Post #325 by Dog » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:51 pm

Is he eating money?
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Post #326 by Dog » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:51 pm

Those bills have like a ton of Germz on them.
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Post #327 by Pennywise » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:53 pm



Ah, so he's a racist and a liar. Can't have that shit on my timeline. I do it enough myself.
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Post #328 by AD » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:53 pm

And traces of cocaine.
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Post #329 by Pennywise » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:53 pm

AD wrote:And what point is that?


He's in the military, so I kind of get where he is coming from, but it's not a very good point I guess.
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Post #330 by clawfirst » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:54 pm

AD wrote:And what point is that?


that they all look alike.

that's why we put numbers on them

















yes the monetary notes have numbers on them.
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Post #331 by IcE ColD » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:36 pm

Dog wrote:Those bills have like a ton of Germz on them.


And you wouldn't like to have millions of Germz in your mouth?
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Post #332 by AD » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:28 pm

Yeah and thats without even mentionning the (valid) misstrust the blacks have with the (white) justice system that often means getting arrested is not a real good option.
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Post #333 by Dog » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:47 pm

I think we have to distinguish broader social issues from the immediate facts in an emmergency response. While I have little doubt that significant institutional racism (incl. within the police) exists in the US (and, on average, to a lesser extent up here), I'm kinda fence sitting on the specific recent cases based on the available facts. In both the cleveland and ferguson cases, my thought is that shots were fired too quickly and that alternative intervention methods -mostly maintaining distance- may have lead to no deaths. The facts of both cases that I know can't lead me to think of murder, rather that too aggressive intervention procedures lead to fatal shootouts that could otherwise possibly have been avoided. That said, it's a thin line. The officers have a duty to protect themselves and the public and if not immediately confronting the assaillant could lead to greater danger then they have to act.

I think the specific issue here -before race- is police intervention techniques.
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Post #334 by Dog » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:01 pm

In feguson particularly, if brown had previously gone for the officers gun and was now charging at him, he may well have been justified in firing. That however raises other questions -should officers be patrolling alone? They don't in montreal. If the officer wasn't alone he may not have felt like he needed to shoot to save his life (ie. Brown could overpower him and disarm him -as he had previously tried to do). Tasers and other non lethal weapons could have possibly also been used -debatable whether effective against a charging man. It's very fact specific, but if brown had assaulted the officer in the car, reached for his gun and was now charging the officer again -can't say i don't understand how criminal charges weren't brought against him. Rather, it's probably the intervention procedures (non lethal weapons, 2 officers per car answering calls) that need to be looked at.
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Post #335 by AD » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:04 pm

Reverse question dog: would Brown have fought or ran if he believed that the justice system would give him fair treatment?
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Post #336 by Dog » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:13 pm

AD wrote:Reverse question dog: would Brown have fought or ran if he believed that the justice system would give him fair treatment?


I don't know. But that's a broader social issue that isn't relevant to the evaluation of the officer's actions in a response situation (ie. The officer shouldn't let brown disarm him because brown has a possible legitimate fear of police).

The broader social question of police-minority relations (and even broader race / poverty) is far more important than specific incidents. I think there is a very serious issue here, just that it's not pertinent on evaluating the officers actions -those are fact specific on whether it was justified to fend off an immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or public. (To take it to the extreme, if a black man shoots at police because he is scared of the police, is the police justified in returning fire? Sure they are. So, it's two questions (1) one broader and more important question of race relations and (2) judging a specific case on the facts (whether or not lethal force was justified).
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Post #337 by Craig » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:13 pm

Dog wrote:In feguson particularly, if brown had previously gone for the officers gun and was now charging at him, he may well have been justified in firing. That however raises other questions -should officers be patrolling alone? They don't in montreal. If the officer wasn't alone he may not have felt like he needed to shoot to save his life (ie. Brown could overpower him and disarm him -as he had previously tried to do). Tasers and other non lethal weapons could have possibly also been used -debatable whether effective against a charging man. It's very fact specific, but if brown had assaulted the officer in the car, reached for his gun and was now charging the officer again -can't say i don't understand how criminal charges weren't brought against him. Rather, it's probably the intervention procedures (non lethal weapons, 2 officers per car answering calls) that need to be looked at.


Other countries have cops that get charged from time to time and they hardly ever kill anyone. There hasn't been a fatal police shooting in England and Wales in two years.

One thing that really troubles me about the cops in the US is they don't seem particularly interested in accountability at all. Their response to the public after Ferguson was incredibly callous. Have you ever tried to look up police shooting numbers in the US? You can't, they either don't keep track of those numbers or don't publish them. That's fucking ridiculous, especially given that you're talking about 400+ killings a year. When I was looking for a comparison number from the UK for earlier in this paragraph it took me 5 seconds on Google to find this information:

https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Deaths_Report_1314.pdf

In 2013/14, the following number of fatalities
occurred within each category:
• 12 road traffic fatalities
• No fatal police shootings
• 11 deaths in or following police custody
• 68 apparent suicides following police custody
• 39 other deaths following police contact (IPCC
independent investigations only)
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Post #338 by mayoradamwest » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:14 pm

There exists a police problem, and it's definitely a piece of the puzzle. Incarceration rates, legacies of racism, current racism, paramilitary operational procedures, poverty... It's a fine mess no doubt.
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Post #339 by IcE ColD » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:20 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:There exists a police problem, and it's definitely a piece of the puzzle. Incarceration rates, legacies of racism, current racism, paramilitary operational procedures, poverty... It's a fine mess no doubt.


Police militarization is indeed quite scary. And we all know that fear can only lead to good things..
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Post #340 by Dog » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:21 pm

Craig wrote:Other countries have cops that get charged from time to time and they hardly ever kill anyone. There hasn't been a fatal police shooting in England and Wales in two years.

One thing that really troubles me about the cops in the US is they don't seem particularly interested in accountability at all. Their response to the public after Ferguson was incredibly callous. Have you ever tried to look up police shooting numbers in the US? You can't, they either don't keep track of those numbers or don't publish them. That's fucking ridiculous, especially given that you're talking about 400+ killings a year. When I was looking for a comparison number from the UK for earlier in this paragraph it took me 5 seconds on Google to find this information:

https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Deaths_Report_1314.pdf


My "gut" tells me that US police are particularly "militarized" and confrontational. That said, the US also has vastly higher crime rates than the UK so those comps are kinda worthless. I think you have to look at intervention procedures and individual case facts to see whether lethal force is justified or could be avoided. It's not an easy call in the ferguson case, based on available facts.
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Post #341 by mayoradamwest » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:24 pm

We need the police to stay as is so that our junior c hockey stars can have meaningful employment.
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Post #342 by habfan4 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:25 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:There exists a police problem, and it's definitely a piece of the puzzle. Incarceration rates, legacies of racism, current racism, paramilitary operational procedures, poverty... It's a fine mess no doubt.


Add to all that the for profit or monetary incentives which are peppered throughout the justice system. Funding for police departments and other law enforcement officials tied to arrests. Privately run correctional institutions. Asset seizure/forfeiture etc...
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Post #343 by Craig » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:30 pm

Dog wrote:My "gut" tells me that US police are particularly "militarized" and confrontational. That said, the US also has vastly higher crime rates than the UK so those comps are kinda worthless. I think you have to look at intervention procedures and individual case facts to see whether lethal force is justified or could be avoided. It's not an easy call in the ferguson case, based on available facts.


You wouldn't have to trust your gut if they actually kept track of how often they kill people. Just sayin'.

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