Gamer Gate (d_k is a self-loathing misandrist, but at least he's not Ernie)

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
User avatar
AD
Posts: 67329
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:30 pm
Location: Here
Has given rep: 322 times
Received rep: 394 times

Post #351 by AD » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:41 pm

I think that makes my point.
User avatar
mayoradamwest
Registered Broad
Posts: 29441
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:38 pm
Has given rep: 206 times
Received rep: 123 times

Post #352 by mayoradamwest » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:45 pm

Ernie wrote:But not really. The only thing that is really uncommon about this is that it appeared in public. I think the subculture probably originated from the idea of relaxed workplaces in tech industries but has progressed to a place where any sort of professionalism is considered quaint or something. It's a combination of lack of professionalism, male dominated workplaces and hyper competition.


Guess I shoulda said had a job in a place that once had a woman walk in. Though yes, it is uncommon for these
Folks to be in public.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #353 by Ernie » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:19 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:Guess I shoulda said had a job in a place that once had a woman walk in. Though yes, it is uncommon for these
Folks to be in public.


No, that's not really it. This isn't some awkward nerd thing. Most of the time it's intelligent, well spoken people who think that rules are below them and they can to do whatever they want. They're landing a probe on a fucking comet, who are you to question what they're wearing? The message is that women should just man up and get on board because we just have no time for bullshit.

It's not exactly a new attitude, I suppose, but where it's occurring is somewhere new and opposite to what people's pre-conceptions of what the tech industry is.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #354 by Ernie » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:32 pm

AD wrote:I think that makes my point.


uh, ok.
senate
Registered Broad
Posts: 6785
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:36 am
Has given rep: 251 times
Received rep: 217 times

Post #355 by senate » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:24 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:Sigh... this thread is depressing guys.


Check your good thread privilege.
User avatar
mayoradamwest
Registered Broad
Posts: 29441
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:38 pm
Has given rep: 206 times
Received rep: 123 times

Post #356 by mayoradamwest » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:40 pm

Ernie wrote:No, that's not really it. This isn't some awkward nerd thing. Most of the time it's intelligent, well spoken people who think that rules are below them and they can to do whatever they want. They're landing a probe on a fucking comet, who are you to question what they're wearing? The message is that women should just man up and get on board because we just have no time for bullshit.

It's not exactly a new attitude, I suppose, but where it's occurring is somewhere new and opposite to what people's pre-conceptions of what the tech industry is.


Who are we to wonder why a guy in a highly visible role representing an industry known for mysogny would use one of their few highly visible moments to pull something mysognist?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to not be utter twats, but your idea that women should man up is (I suppose) an interesting alternative.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #357 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:03 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:Who are we to wonder why a guy in a highly visible role representing an industry known for mysogny would use one of their few highly visible moments to pull something mysognist?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to not be utter twats, but your idea that women should man up is (I suppose) an interesting alternative.


I hope you don't think I was condoning this behaviour. Personally I think the tech industry should have more women because it would make better products if it did.
User avatar
AD
Posts: 67329
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:30 pm
Location: Here
Has given rep: 322 times
Received rep: 394 times

Post #358 by AD » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:13 pm

I can't wait for the Toyota Yaris of video games!
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #359 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:17 pm

Ernie wrote:I hope you don't think I was condoning this behaviour. Personally I think the tech industry should have more women because it would make better products if it did.


how so? seems like the easy thing to say. I work in an industry that is 99% male due to the physical demands and the basic physiology of humans. How would they make better products? Products that are mostly markets and made for 13 year old boys?
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #360 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:19 pm

Big#D wrote:One day they will probably have their auto industry moment when they realize that women not only can buy products, but will have different wants / needs than men, and it will turn the industry on its head.


Well that too, but software developers in particular are notorious for going off on their own and making it hard for others to follow. People working together makes for a better product from a technical standpoint and generally women are better at that.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #361 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:23 pm

clawfirst wrote:how so? seems like the easy thing to say. I work in an industry that is 99% male due to the physical demands and the basic physiology of humans. How would they make better products? Products that are mostly markets and made for 13 year old boys?


The best products are products people make for themselves. In the tech industry it's known as eating your own dog food.

Your industry (construction, right?) has a lot of people who are female, just not the labourers. I believe the large majority of interior designers are female, for instance.
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #362 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:25 pm

that would be part of the one percent, yes.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #363 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:36 pm

Even some of the physical jobs in the industry might benefit from more women. I'd guess there are about a half dozen individual qualities that go together to make up a good carpenter. If a woman isn't as physically strong but is excellent at all the other skills, would she not be better than the majority of male carpenters?

If it's just crushing rocks with sledgehammers, yeah, women aren't going to be suited for the job. But most jobs are more complicated than that. A female interior designer who really got the carpentry aspect of the business would probably be pretty good to work with, no? Maybe a female carpenter who had a good conceptual idea for interior design would be good for an interior designer to work with? Lots of different roles in every industry where tons of testosterone isn't always the best thing to have.
User avatar
Craig
Registered Broad
Posts: 38082
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Toronto
Has given rep: 23 times
Received rep: 190 times

Post #364 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:39 pm

Tech companies that have more women in them tend to outperform their peers in terms of annualized returns. It might just be that the women in the field prefer to work for the better companies, but it also might be that the diversity in the workforce is a positive thing. Women tend to have different views on and approaches to problems.

I'm less convinced that would apply to construction in the same way, but for office work like IT, definitely.
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #365 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:40 pm

I didn't say there aren't any or that the ones who are there are no good. They just don't exist regularly.

But that's not the point. they can either do it or not. How does it improve the end product. The answer is, none of the decisions that make a better end product are in the control of the PEOPLE at that level.

And God damn do I hate designers. Had one once say they could open up a bay window into floor space....

And of course I could, but do you want to drop 20g on 3sq'. She was terrible, because she was terrible and lacked training and experience. not because she was a woman.
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #366 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:43 pm

Craig wrote:Tech companies that have more women in them tend to outperform their peers in terms of annualized returns. It might just be that the women in the field prefer to work for the better companies, but it also might be that the diversity in the workforce is a positive thing. Women tend to have different views on and approaches to problems.

I'm less convinced that would apply to construction in the same way, but for office work like IT, definitely.


It makes the men perform better(this is entirely a construction thing). you put one young woman on a broom and suddenly men become stronger and faster
senate
Registered Broad
Posts: 6785
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:36 am
Has given rep: 251 times
Received rep: 217 times

Post #367 by senate » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:44 pm

AD wrote:I can't wait for the Toyota Yaris of video games!


Image
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #368 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:46 pm

clawfirst wrote:I didn't say there aren't any or that the ones who are there are no good. They just don't exist regularly.

But that's not the point. they can either do it or not. How does it improve the end product. The answer is, none of the decisions that make a better end product are in the control of the PEOPLE at that level.

And God damn do I hate designers. Had one once say they could open up a bay window into floor space....

And of course I could, but do you want to drop 20g on 3sq'. She was terrible, because she was terrible and lacked training and experience. not because she was a woman.


Yeah, obviously the lack of strength is going to be hard to overcome, so there would be a lot less female carpenters even if the workplace was super welcoming to women. And I'm not going to pretend I really know that much about your industry.
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #369 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:47 pm

meh, its 100% what you think it is.
User avatar
Craig
Registered Broad
Posts: 38082
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Toronto
Has given rep: 23 times
Received rep: 190 times

Post #370 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:48 pm

I'ma go tell K she should sweep the basement or rake leaves tomorrow.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #371 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:50 pm

Anyways, I guess my basic point is that women bring different skills and viewpoints to a workplace and I think men often don't understand the benefits that they bring because they are men and can only see problems from a particular perspective.
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #372 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:23 pm

Craig wrote:I'ma go tell K she should sweep the basement or rake leaves tomorrow.


Alright alright alright
User avatar
AD
Posts: 67329
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:30 pm
Location: Here
Has given rep: 322 times
Received rep: 394 times

Post #373 by AD » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:34 pm

clawfirst wrote:Alright alright alright


You don't have to take that from him. Come to Mtl. I'll treat you well.
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #374 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:36 pm

I don't blame Craig for his outbursts. my equalish hasn't been showing up or even responding. I should probably pay him.
User avatar
Craig
Registered Broad
Posts: 38082
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Toronto
Has given rep: 23 times
Received rep: 190 times

Post #375 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:43 pm

That was an outburst?
User avatar
Craig
Registered Broad
Posts: 38082
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Toronto
Has given rep: 23 times
Received rep: 190 times

Post #376 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:43 pm

I thought I was just objectifying my wife. :colbert:
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #377 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:46 pm

It can be both.
User avatar
Craig
Registered Broad
Posts: 38082
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Toronto
Has given rep: 23 times
Received rep: 190 times

Post #378 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:47 pm

All I'm saying is if you guys work harder digging holes in sub-zero temps AND I get my yard raked, it's kinda a win-win.
User avatar
clawfirst
Registered Broad
Posts: 39222
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
Has given rep: 152 times
Received rep: 296 times

Post #379 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:55 pm

I have a sinus infection and that will still be done before noon.
Bernie Bernbaum
Registered Broad
Posts: 3594
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:55 pm
Has given rep: 2 times
Received rep: 9 times

Post #380 by Bernie Bernbaum » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:34 am

Ernie wrote:Anyways, I guess my basic point is that women bring different skills and viewpoints to a workplace and I think men often don't understand the benefits that they bring because they are men and can only see problems from a particular perspective.


The fact that fields and companies resistant women also cut their talent pools in half might also have something to do with it.
User avatar
Roughneck
Registered Broad
Posts: 4166
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:38 pm
Location: Cowtown
Received rep: 10 times

Post #381 by Roughneck » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:30 am

Ernie wrote:No, that's not really it. This isn't some awkward nerd thing. Most of the time it's intelligent, well spoken people who think that rules are below them and they can to do whatever they want. They're landing a probe on a fucking comet, who are you to question what they're wearing? The message is that women should just man up and get on board because we just have no time for bullshit.

It's not exactly a new attitude, I suppose, but where it's occurring is somewhere new and opposite to what people's pre-conceptions of what the tech industry is.


I'd say these people are just a bunch of awkward nerds who have needed to deal with the public in the 10+ years the project has been in operation. Taylor however is part of this group that is trying to embrace this 'rocker-nerd' style (for lack of a better term) that is seen through most STEM fields now, but particularly physics and software.

Similar to how tech companies are trying to shed the corporate culture because it doesn't matter what you wear so long as the job gets done. For some that isn't enough and you need to actively go against any concept of a corporate dress and appearance code. So to get back to Taylor you have a guy who wore shorts and a shirt that was likely not picked with malice towards women, but because it was the most 'non-corporate' shirt he had that could also show off his tats and show us that 'scientists can be cool too.' Instead we see the big awareness gap between people, even leaders, in the field to one of the more pressing issues in STEM.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #382 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:23 pm

Aunt Muriel wrote:The fact that fields and companies resistant women also cut their talent pools in half might also have something to do with it.


I don't think we'd see 50/50 even if the work environment was perfect for women. The job requires a singular focus on solving problems and I think men are often more interested in that kind of work. But yeah, there could and should be many more women than there are.

Roughneck wrote:I'd say these people are just a bunch of awkward nerds who have needed to deal with the public in the 10+ years the project has been in operation. Taylor however is part of this group that is trying to embrace this 'rocker-nerd' style (for lack of a better term) that is seen through most STEM fields now, but particularly physics and software.

Similar to how tech companies are trying to shed the corporate culture because it doesn't matter what you wear so long as the job gets done. For some that isn't enough and you need to actively go against any concept of a corporate dress and appearance code. So to get back to Taylor you have a guy who wore shorts and a shirt that was likely not picked with malice towards women, but because it was the most 'non-corporate' shirt he had that could also show off his tats and show us that 'scientists can be cool too.' Instead we see the big awareness gap between people, even leaders, in the field to one of the more pressing issues in STEM.


Yeah, totally, usually it's not intentional misogyny but instead just a lack of awareness and the confirmation bias that comes with a large group of men who have just being around men throughout most of their careers. Google actually tries to train its employees to be aware of hidden biases etc: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/technology/exposing-hidden-biases-at-google-to-improve-diversity.html?_r=0
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #383 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:32 pm

Shush now, the adults are talking.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #384 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:38 pm

dempsey_k wrote:FTFY


Have you ever actually had a professional job in your life? Sit down, boy.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #385 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:46 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Nope. I've checked my privilege: don't need one. Those are for the slovenly idiots like yourself who come from low stock.


hahaha. I just did a poll and 90% of women think you're a tool. Shush now, the adults are talking.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #386 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:59 pm

dempsey_k wrote:It's apparently an adult thing to you to propose women are too mentally deficient to code, so yeah adult in the sense that you've bought in to sexism while managing to bargain on it enough psychologically to convince yourself you're not sexist.


That's not what I said. I said that men are often more interested in that type of work. There are plenty of industries where the opposite is true. The challenge is to acknowledge this but still make it inviting for anyone who has the ability or interest in the type of work to jump in.

Anyone who thinks that men and women are exactly the same is fucking stupid. Men and women should be able to do whatever the fuck they want to, but that doesn't mean they're going to make the same choices. Indeed I said in my earlier posts that it's the differences in women that make them very useful in STEM fields. But the work is still the work and a lot of it is going to be done individually.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #387 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:15 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Yeah I wonder why they make those choices when they face intense pressure, insults, and harassment as kids and students to not do certain things that are the domain of men, using your reasonable manly men logic.


Well, that accounts for much of the discrepancy and that's what Craig and I have said needs to change. But you have no fucking idea what the work actually is, and you're not a woman, so basically you have absolutely no insight into this. All you know is how to repeat some talking points.

You're like that kid in the front of the class who won't shut up and thinks they're smarter than the professor while everyone else just rolls their eyes.
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Post #388 by Dog » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:19 pm

Just this morning at breakfast my 4 year old daughter was telling me how boring my job was (she just sees me on the laptop), so I explained to her a bit more what i do. Then i asked her if she wanted to be a lawyer like her daddy to which she replied "lol, that's just for boys". I explained it wasn't and she looked at me like i was saying some absurd thing and said she wanted to be a veterinarian because she likes animals and likes to take care of them.

Looks like I ain't raising no butch manly girl.

:crossarms:
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #389 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:21 pm

My super butch lesbo aunt is a veterinarian so I don't know about that.
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Post #390 by Dog » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:21 pm

:why:
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Post #391 by Dog » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:28 pm

Big#D wrote:she can become a marine biologist like my daughter and work with dolphins or sea turtles or whatever it is this day.

edit: actually i think she's into eagles this week, so maybe marine biology is out for now too.


Are you trying to match my daughter and your daughter up, D?

:squint:
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Post #392 by Dog » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:32 pm

Because you know, it would kinda positively settle the whole boy issue for young/teen girls.

Just saying.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #393 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:15 pm

You sure have an active imagination, dempsey. I'll give you that.
User avatar
Craig
Registered Broad
Posts: 38082
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Toronto
Has given rep: 23 times
Received rep: 190 times

Post #394 by Craig » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:16 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Eeehhhnnnn noooooooo, you were pretty specific about the sexist status quo being valid because of some freedom of choice horseshit. You're tossing dudebro compromises out that sound reasonable to your immediate circle of dudebros. Your sense of fairness has changed in the course of this thread, through anger and attacks on me, but it's changed, even in the course of the last few hours. Glad at least your misogyny is malleable, encouraging for other fedora fuck boys who come from your circumstance.


Your interpretation of what he said is very different from mine.
User avatar
Ernie
Registered Broad
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm
Location: The City of Vancouver
Received rep: 1 time

Post #395 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:22 pm

Craig wrote:Your interpretation of what he said is very different from mine.


The hilarious thing is that he was the one who was dismissive that the guy wearing the shirt was evidence of institutional sexism while the people who are familiar with the industry recognized it immediately.

Return to “Le mur de messages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests