Dr_Chimera wrote:I don't get the analogy between Islam and white nationalism at all. Is this what they're teaching over at Yale these days? That Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Ben Shapiro are both equally bad?
The analogy isn't between the ideologies. The idea is that people are happy to "blame" white nationalism as an ideology (that is, the connection between their ideology and various bad behaviors is readily apparent), but when it comes to religions (and Islam in particular) the ideology (ideologies) gets a pass.
But that's not how human behavior works. People pick up beliefs throughout their lives, and these beliefs have impacts on what they do in the world. Particularly those beliefs that they internalize in the key formative years of their lives.
AD wrote:I mean, I don't think its fair to say that white nationalism is somehow the worst thing ever or singling it out as unique.
The general assumption is that people suck, are stupid, and fucked up and some will get drawn into whatever extremism gives them purpose at whatever time or whatever extremism is accepted within a community, whatever gets them validation as humans, yadda yadda.
And that the tenets of the -ism in question are pretty secondary.
Hence, going from one current problematic -ism to another to another misses the actual issue, usually a human feeling of disenfranchisement and injustice coupled with some internal struggle sprinkled with assholishness and criminality.
And that is especially problematic if the -ism you're pointing to as problematic is generally and historically identical to other -isms that don't produce the violent outcomes. Example, Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism are so identical and similar, singling one of them as producing violent and extremist behaviour is the wrongness we argued.
Nationalism, like religious thought, has its issues, but when its basically be proud of your territory, language and sing songs a few times a year, its fine.
I'm sorry AD, but you're just wrong.
People do not just choose among beliefs in the way that you imply. The things we are taught (and believe) have impacts on what we do. Even the most rational and fully developed adult cannot really interpret novel claims ("-isms") outside the lens of the things they already believe (the "-isms" that have been handed to them, in whole or in part).
Let's consider a more straightforward context. Have you noticed how everyone always likes (primarily) music from their era? This is a context where absolutely nothing is at stake. People's preferences about what sounds good is, in relative terms, almost entirely arbitrary. People could, in theory, listen to music from any time or any culture. There is no stigma attached to doing so (unlike for religion), and they have easy access to a great wealth of music. But the vast majority nonetheless
retain their preferences for music that they listened to during their formative years.
If the formation of musical preferences over time is so easily influenced by what was learned at a given point in time, imagine the influence of being exposed to an entire belief system? And I'm not talking about the exceptions - white nationalism and all that - I'm talking about how my brain works and your brain works and how Chim's brain works and how Jester's brain... well, nevermind Jester.
And, not just that, but you're suggesting that people's disenfranchisement has nothing to do with their having adopted disenfranchised belief systems. By my reading, the primary reason behind the new rise in white nationalism is that whites feel like they are becoming more disenfranchised ("not allowed to make racist jokes anymore... and, look, black kids are getting into college now"). The disenfranchisement isn't coherent unless the beliefs are already in place (in this context, that "whites" are "us" and "everyone else" is "them" - simplifying things of course).
Mental health is a relevant factor, but one cannot talk about these things without considering the things that people actually believe. The brain just doesn't work that way, AD.