IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Post #201 by Ernie » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:25 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Ernie's .... Slow


I would have thought it was a joke if it came from anyone else.
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Post #202 by Artie » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:03 pm

Big#D wrote:just looked at the forum permission again. only full-registered users, broads and above (janitors/mod, super mod, admin) can view / search those subforums.


:paranoid:
:mkbét::lr: :lr:

OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone

It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.

Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."

...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...

Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.


:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #203 by Sturminator » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:09 am

dempsey_k wrote:Sturm, why do you narrow that to Arabs? I've seen the same complex in Turks, Persians, Indians, Chinese ... Shit especially the Chinese. And lest we forget who really had that scraping their consciences last century ....


I don't restrict it only to Arabs. As I tried to imply above, this mode of thinking infects even some Americans, in my opinion. No one is immune to being a retrograde dipshit; I just think this type of fuckery is more likely to appear against certain backdrops, "Arabia" being one of them. I am trying to stay topical in this octopus of a thread, as I think restricting this conversation to Arabs is sensible.
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Post #204 by Artie » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:27 am

Chris Rock ‏@ozchrisrock 46m46 minutes ago
The award for dumbest tweet of all time goes to.....
#ChapelHillShooting

Image
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #205 by Artie » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:34 am

Chris Rock ‏@ozchrisrock
Victims = Muslims

Killer = White

If identities were reversed, media coverage would be nonstop.
#ChapelHillShooting
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #206 by PPJ » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:59 am

Fucking atheists and their murderous philosophy.
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Post #207 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:01 am

Psycho Papa Joe wrote:Fucking atheists and their murderous philosophy.


You joke, but take Sam Harris to the logical ends.
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Post #208 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:50 am

May have been a parking dispute.
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Post #209 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:07 pm

embracedbias wrote:sounds sort of like "put words in Sam Harris' mouth".


Not really. Do I think Sam Harris is proposing the atheist version of the "final solution?" No. Do I think Sam Harris' arguments could inspire atheistic shitbirds to do bad things? Yes. When you make pretty strident arguments that an ideology is inherently violent, and inherently incompatible with (your own) society ... where does that leave you? You can proselytize, but what if that fails? What then?

Now, the difference is that I would imagine that Harris would assume that if it came to that the coercive force would emanate from society as a whole (i.e., the state)--this is why a lot of these folks are pretty on board with aggressive military policy directed at the Middle East. What happens, however, if the state refuses to do the dirty work for you?
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Post #210 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:17 pm

embracedbias wrote:wait wait wait

All this reticence about me pointing my finger at Islam (based on bad behavior from Muslims that is explicitly justified based on religious doctrine), and you fault Sam Harris for saying something that relates to, but does not explicitly justify (and he in fact actively argues against), a potentially heinous act that an atheist might perpetrate (but none ever has)?

People are now suddenly moved around very easily by what is written in a (not even holy) book that we should worry about Sam Harris? Please explain to me how this isn't hypocritical.


EB, read above ... I'm totally open to the notion that ideology can support bad behavior. The problem that I have consistently noted in your argument is the lack of specific language. You talk about "Islam," not a specific voice(s) within Islam. You talk about "Muslims," not a specific subset of Muslims (and in that case, there are very real and substantive divides). As I've also noted consistently, your argument is entirely plausible ... you've just done a shit job of putting it forward, and are entirely disinterested in the avenues to actually making that argument--significantly, as much as I find Harris loathsome, the man has at least done a lot of work to inform himself on the subject matter. What's more, I find the comparative attempt wholly lacking in perspective, but that's a much broader discussion.

Moreover, how is what I said any different from the following (which you agreed with): "That being said, I think people gravitate towards ideologies that appeal to a priori beliefs and grievances much more than they arrive at those beliefs and grievances because of an ideology."

An "atheist shitbird" is not representative of atheists ... an "athiest shitbird" is not even necessarily representative of Harris' thoughts, but I can totally get how an atheist shitbird could derive justification for shitty behavior based on the arguments put forward by Harris and his ilk.

Importantly, however, Harris' arguments have not truly been taken to their logical ends, I'm just noting where they lead. So, answer the question. If Islam as an ideology represents a real and unavoidable threat to society, what do you do with its adherents? You've labeled them inherently dangerous (seriously, there's little wiggle room with Harris' position ... he's even used it to defend Israel blowing up children on a beach).

This stuff is nothing new, eb. Clash of civilizations type arguments have been around for years now ...
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Post #211 by Artie » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:32 pm

everytime I think this thread will die somebody in the real world does something to resurrect the discussion
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #212 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Artie wrote:everytime I think this thread will die somebody in the real world does something to resurrect the discussion


It's a conversation that has been going on for centuries, really.
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Post #213 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:38 pm

mooseOAK wrote:I wonder how many of these people are watching and listening to Fox News and their blatant agenda to categorize all Muslims as either terrorists or terrorist sympathizers.


Yeah, well, FNC is disturbing on multiple levels, right. You have the scare tactics with Muslims and terrorism, and the the outright racism when it comes to African Americans. Both of those aspects of their coverage develop out of pre-existing biases, but also then work to confirm and harden those biases. Good times!
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Post #214 by Dog » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:46 pm

jester wrote:It's a conversation that has been going on for centuries, really.


I still hold hope we can wrap this up before the summer holidays.

:crossarms:
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Post #215 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:47 pm

Dog wrote:I still hold hope we can wrap this up before the summer holidays.

:crossarms:


Hey man, when the Aliens show up we'll have a whole new conversation to start.
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Post #216 by Artie » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:54 pm

Dog wrote:I still hold hope we can wrap this up before the summer holidays.

:crossarms:


we should put this off to the summer time, you know, when there is no hockey
:mkbét::lr: :lr:



OOOH yeah life goes on, long after the thrill of Vinny is gone



It's too bad all the people that could really run the Habs are busy doing talk radio, writing blogs or posting on message boards.



Now, Lajoie is an imbecile, a cretin and a plagiarist, who to use author Dany Laferrière's deliciously withering expression, "lives beyond his intellectual means."



...as serious as a poutine shortage in Chicoutimi during a curling bonspiel...



Haddock wrote:I wouldn't know anything about that. I gave my soul up when I swore allegiance to the goddamn queen.




:lr: :lr: :lr:
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Post #217 by RTWAP » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:46 pm

I enjoy this thread more when it goes off-topic. :ford_stare:
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Post #218 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:39 pm

Artie wrote:we should put this off to the summer time, you know, when there is no hockey


Yeah, I'm already one foot into summer time with this Flyers' season.
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Post #219 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:43 pm



Excellent little essay there.
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Post #220 by PredsFan77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:03 pm

fuckin chapel hill.
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Post #221 by Dog » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:12 pm

Everybody else amused by eb squirming to distance his extremist ideology from the wackos that perpetrate terrorist attacks in its name?

:danson:
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Post #222 by Dog » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:39 pm

embracedbias wrote:What ideology? I know you're joking, but I simply can't abide this lunacy.


You can and you will abide it (the lunacy). It’s the militant nature of your belief (you formed a conclusion), the burning desire to impose or convert others to it that draws parallels.
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Post #223 by Dog » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:49 pm

You realize pretty much everybody who has posted in this thread is likely an atheist, right?
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Post #224 by AD » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:56 pm

EB is to atheists what ISIS is to Islam.
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Post #225 by PredsFan77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:26 pm

plus all the people in chapel hill are liberal d-bags. james taylor used to live there.
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Post #226 by PredsFan77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:27 pm

[RIGHT][YOUTUBE]cwugjyeSKx4[/YOUTUBE][/RIGHT]
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Post #227 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:27 pm

embracedbias wrote:Tell her to go to Saudi Arabia wearing a shirt that says "I'm an atheist". Or even certain parts of London.

Good time to be picking on atheists. The most disliked group in America (according to the polling data from the Salon article). A group that would be killed in certain parts of the world for stating their (lack of) belief.

But fuck them for acting smarter than religious people. (Forgetting that, on average, they are)


Stop watching FNC, eb.
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Post #228 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:34 pm

embracedbias wrote:When I point to examples where Muslims do something heinous and they explicitly state that they were motivated by their religion, you nonetheless require a book length documentation of unstated historical, political, and theological underpinnings as justification. Same goes for polling data that shows how millions upon millions of Muslims worldwide have beliefs that are highly problematic (regarding women's rights and so on).

The hypocrisy is that you saw one case where an atheist killed 3 muslims, without any claim of "atheist" motivation from the killer nor even a specific ideology that could be used as motivation (atheists don't have a doctrine), and felt it reasonable to speculate about how he might find motivation in the work of Harris... assuming of course that he moulded it into something entirely different.

The difference in standard is obviously sourced by your bias toward religion and dislike of atheists. I have the opposite bias, but at least in my case the stated motivations of the individuals in question accord with my interpretation. But, of course, I'm the lazy one.


EB, you're an idiot.

I was not drawing a direct connection between Harris and any specific event. I was specifically discussing Harris' arguments and what their logical ends represent. I have no idea if this asshat read Harris (probably did), and I have no idea if the individuals' religion had anything whatsoever to do with their murder. It may have been over parking, as I noted above. The argument about Harris is not a new one, and it has nada to do with Chapel Hill.

So stand the fuck down, and read a bit more carefully.

There is a vast gulf between a critique of atheist extremists, and atheists. I'd define myself as agnostic, but definitely lean towards atheism. If I adopted your life of reasoning, I would just talk about atheists without qualification. Full stop. I'm not going to do that, because there's a big difference between Harris, Maher, etc. and moderate atheists.
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Post #229 by PPJ » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:02 pm

embracedbias wrote:You brought it up in a response to a snide comment about atheism leading to the shooting. You don't see how one might think you were drawing a connection? Pfft, what a cop-out. At least you agree me with I guess.

What in sweet hell is an "atheist extremist"?


Soviet Russia murdered 20 mil in the name of Athiest extremism. Islamic extremism has a ways to go.
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Post #230 by PredsFan77 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:03 pm

Christopher Hitchens
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Post #231 by Dog » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:05 pm

embracedbias wrote:Forming a conclusion is militancy? You formed a conclusion about my atheism and are now trying to convince me of it. Goddamn militant.

And, by the way, I never attempt to change anyone's religious belief IRL. I may make jokes and so on, typically as a response to someone (e.g., mother in law) making fun of my lack of religion. I would never bring it up with someone that I wasn't close with... and I shy away from discussing it at all unless I feel like the other party is genuinely interested in an honest discussion.

Most of my "militancy" on this board has to do with constantly being attacked. It took me a very long time to even get people to.acknowledge that religion might have something to do with people doing bad shit in the name of Islam (AD still disagrees). Some of it has to do with getting frustrated with bullshit "new atheist" narratives and terms like "extremist atheist"... and posts like yours.

It's easy not to have an opinion. There's no virtue in it though, contrary to common opinion.


a belief. Forming a conclusion = a belief. Atheism is a belief because you formed a conclusion about the non existence of God. Short of that, I think you're more into agnostic territory.

The militant nature of the belief is another matter.
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Post #232 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:20 pm

embracedbias wrote:You brought it up in a response to a snide comment about atheism leading to the shooting. You don't see how one might think you were drawing a connection? Pfft, what a cop-out. At least you agree me with I guess.

What in sweet hell is an "atheist extremist"?


Dude, I'm pretty sure I brought it up months ago in relation to Harris. I've also repeatedly brought it up in reference to your own arguments, and their logical ends. You can't argue that an ideology is inherently and inescapably dangerous and ignore the obvious policy implications that might derive from that claim.
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Post #233 by jester » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:26 pm

embracedbias wrote:They did? How exacty did the lack of belief in God motivate them? Don't suppose there were some other more direct things at play there, eh?


Played a direct role in their persecution of the church.
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Post #234 by Dog » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:27 pm

embracedbias wrote:No.

Agnosticism relates to a philosophical stance on the probability of God. I am an agnostic because I know that it can never be proven that God doesn't exist. I am also technically an agnostic about leprauchans. There are two levels of agnosticism: 1) weak = I don't know, and 2) strong = I don't know and no one else does either.

You are either a theist or atheist (or polytheist). Do you believe in God? Yes = theist, No = atheist. But of course there are two levels of this as well: 1) negative atheist = I don't believe in God, and 2) positive atheist = I believe that God does not exist

Most atheists (including Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.) are negative atheists and strong agnostics.


Interesting.

Militant negative atheists, then.

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