IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1701 by Dog » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:35 am

DON'T DO IT, EB!!!!
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1702 by IcE ColD » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:52 am

Huh, that would explain the police officers with dogs I saw at Union Station yesterday.

Wait, should I be thankful to be alive or summat?
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Post #1703 by Dog » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:53 am

They tried to kill Ice???!

Jerks.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1704 by AD » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:37 pm

Brown Socks wrote:Saskatoon was the Paris of the Prairies.
:colbert:


https://www.lonelyplanet.com/canada/sas ... /saskatoon

Saskatchewan's pride, coined the 'Paris of the Prairies' by Canada's favorite homegrown rockers, the Tragically Hip, Saskatoon is full of hidden treasures. Don't be misled by first appearances – head into the downtown core and inner neighborhoods to get a sense of this surprisingly cosmopolitan city.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... 20Prairies

Refers to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, a medium-sized city and arguably the high point when travelling between Edmonton and Winnipeg on the Yellowhead highway.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatoon

It is known for its relatively diverse and vibrant culture, as well as its eight (plus two planned) river crossings, earning it the nicknames "Paris of the Prairies" and "Bridge City."


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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1705 by AD » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:37 pm

:colbert:
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1706 by Boring Choice #2 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:46 pm

i trust a source dedicated to the tragically hip over lonely planet and urban dictionary any day. and virgin bros? pfft.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1707 by AD » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Brown Socks wrote:i trust a source dedicated to the tragically hip over lonely planet and urban dictionary any day. and virgin bros? pfft.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/rel ... le1208436/

Paris is for lovers - the Paris of the Prairies, that is.
The online retail giant Amazon.ca has named Saskatoon


http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=2562

May be most famous song referring to the Paris of the Prairies, Saskatoon.


http://blog.jays-calgary-movers.ca/expl ... -prairies/

Exploring Saskatoon – For Newcomers to the ‘Paris of the Prairies’
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1708 by AD » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:11 pm

I've never been.
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Post #1709 by Dog » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:28 pm

"Arguably the high point when travelling between Edmonton and Winnipeg"

High praise indeed!
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Post #1710 by Pennywise » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:09 pm

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Post #1711 by mcphee » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:10 pm

Chaos Reigns wrote:I thought Saskatoon was just the highest level of chaw spitoons. The king of all the spitoons, or the Paris of Spitoons, as it were.

My oldest daughter's best friend became an Anglican priest, tricky business for a female, even trickier for a lesbian.but Saskatoon was where she wanted to ply her trade. She was well accepted until she was about to be The Priest for whatever church she was at. Then she became an abomination and on the news while the controversy raged.
Funny, I never though she was particularly religious. Good kid though.

Her brother builds bikes for that Jesse James dude. Her parents are retired and maintain houses in Austin Texas and Saskatoon so as no to favor either of the kids or grandchildren.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1712 by MP » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:17 pm

Dog wrote:"Arguably the high point when travelling between Edmonton and Winnipeg"

High praise indeed!

I've never felt the need to argue that thesis. Outside of beaker I doubt anyone would take you up on that debate....
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Post #1713 by Dog » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:39 pm

Looking like FBI intercepted his "martyr video" and alerted cdn authorities who IDed Driver and went to arrest him as he was getting in a cab. He then detonated a bomb in the cab -slight injuries to cab driver and he was kiiled (not clear if shot by police or from bomb).

Good, quick work on all sides here. Nice.

As for Driver, seems to have been troubled teen turned to radical islam. I found this bit interesting for a 2015 interview with CBC:

"When asked how he turned from devout Muslim to a "radical extremist," Driver said it was a result of reading up on the Middle East online.
"Seeing some of the things that happened in Syria, it infuriates you and it breaks your heart at the same time. And I think that if you know what's going on, you have to do something. Even if you're just speaking about it," Driver told CBC."


Sounds like mainstream islam drove him to terrorism or the much more classical troubled soul leading to radical islam believing they are at war with the West because of geopolitics, eb?
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Post #1714 by mcphee » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:41 pm

Plus, the bike builder likes to be called Bacon
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1715 by PredsFan77 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:14 pm

Apparently we are getting ready to attack Syria.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1716 by vf » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:04 pm

AD wrote:
It is known for its relatively diverse and vibrant culture, as well as its eight (plus two planned) river crossings, earning it the nicknames "Paris of the Prairies" and "Bridge City."


Unplanned river crossings doesn't seem like something a Parisian would do. :trump2:
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Post #1717 by PredsFan77 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:16 pm

Chaos Reigns wrote:
PredsFan77 wrote:Apparently we are getting ready to attack Syria.


Is your source ZeroHedge or InfoWars?


Noted Middle East twitter journalist, Beyond The Levant
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Post #1718 by Whit Dickman » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:23 am

Dog wrote:Looking like FBI intercepted his "martyr video" and alerted cdn authorities who IDed Driver and went to arrest him as he was getting in a cab. He then detonated a bomb in the cab -slight injuries to cab driver and he was kiiled (not clear if shot by police or from bomb).

Good, quick work on all sides here. Nice.

As for Driver, seems to have been troubled teen turned to radical islam. I found this bit interesting for a 2015 interview with CBC:

"When asked how he turned from devout Muslim to a "radical extremist," Driver said it was a result of reading up on the Middle East online.
"Seeing some of the things that happened in Syria, it infuriates you and it breaks your heart at the same time. And I think that if you know what's going on, you have to do something. Even if you're just speaking about it," Driver told CBC."


Sounds like mainstream islam drove him to terrorism or the much more classical troubled soul leading to radical islam believing they are at war with the West because of geopolitics, eb?

Both? Lots of people have political grievances but don't have an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents
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Post #1719 by Whit Dickman » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:34 am

AD wrote:Nope. Its the opposite dog. You don't get it. White dude from the peg read one passage of the Quran and the terroristy supra-effect of one little morsel of Islam made him into a killing machine.

Islam is dangerous man. Its not the people. Its the ideas, man.

Think about it thought.

You are literally making the exact same argument that the NRA makes to combat gun control.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Based on what you have said before, you must believe that if buddy picks up Jainism he still decides to take out Union Station. Yah?
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Post #1720 by AD » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:04 am

One does not pick up Jainism when violently fucked up. Just like one doesn't pick up Soufism when violently fucked up. (Or the myriad of other mainstream Islamic traditions).

Rather, dude looks at YouTube videos of ISIS. In your argument, those videos are "Islam".

That is just plain wrong.

If you could understand that simple point, there would be no discussion here.
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Post #1721 by jester » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:39 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
AD wrote:Nope. Its the opposite dog. You don't get it. White dude from the peg read one passage of the Quran and the terroristy supra-effect of one little morsel of Islam made him into a killing machine.

Islam is dangerous man. Its not the people. Its the ideas, man.

Think about it thought.

You are literally making the exact same argument that the NRA makes to combat gun control.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Based on what you have said before, you must believe that if buddy picks up Jainism he still decides to take out Union Station. Yah?


EB, maybe stop using the gun rights comparison until you actually understand their ideology/argument. As demonstrated earlier, you dont understand their views with any degree of depth, and, no, a catchy bumper sticker does not accurately reflect them.

Also: guns are engineered weapons ... religion/ideology is an amorphous, subjective, and constantly changing blob. Really, this is the definition of a bad argument.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1722 by jester » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:40 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
Dog wrote:Looking like FBI intercepted his "martyr video" and alerted cdn authorities who IDed Driver and went to arrest him as he was getting in a cab. He then detonated a bomb in the cab -slight injuries to cab driver and he was kiiled (not clear if shot by police or from bomb).

Good, quick work on all sides here. Nice.

As for Driver, seems to have been troubled teen turned to radical islam. I found this bit interesting for a 2015 interview with CBC:

"When asked how he turned from devout Muslim to a "radical extremist," Driver said it was a result of reading up on the Middle East online.
"Seeing some of the things that happened in Syria, it infuriates you and it breaks your heart at the same time. And I think that if you know what's going on, you have to do something. Even if you're just speaking about it," Driver told CBC."


Sounds like mainstream islam drove him to terrorism or the much more classical troubled soul leading to radical islam believing they are at war with the West because of geopolitics, eb?

Both? Lots of people have political grievances but don't have an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents


Yes they do. Nationalism, a staple of western ideology for a couple centuries, justifies the killing of innocents all the fucking time.
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Post #1723 by Pennywise » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:24 pm

Chaos Reigns wrote:
PredsFan77 wrote:Apparently we are getting ready to attack Syria.


Is your source ZeroHedge or InfoWars?




I told Predo CW was making the case to bomb Assad with her speech at the UN. :onrait:

Which, she might be. :wink:
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Post #1724 by Pennywise » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:12 pm

I have a feeling Clinton will put people like Morell in charge of a Syrian operation. He explicitly said we should start killing Russians and Iranians to scare Assad.

I asked Clarissa about Assad and she said no plans to attack him that she knows about. She thinks Clinton will strike Assad but she won't have many options.

"Obama doesn't care, sadly"
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Post #1725 by Pennywise » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Turkey, Russia, and Iran are coming together over that very thought or prospect. Iranians already shelling Iraqi Kurdistan.
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Post #1726 by Pennywise » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:04 pm

Big picture, Iranians are worried Kurds in Iran will try to link up with the rest of Kurdistan. As of now they have suppressed the numerous attacks by PDKI who are calling for independence and revolution in Rojhilatê Kurdistanê.

If it turns out to be a widespread movement, it will launch the Shia/Iranian/Arab Iraqi's-Kurdish conflict into full gear which could spread all the way to the Mediterranean. Perhaps outside actors use the Kurds to destabilize Iran.
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Post #1727 by Pennywise » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:20 pm

I hope the Kurds get what they deserve.

In other news, ISIS is getting hammered on all fronts. I kind of dislike they ratcheted it up nearing the election. We shouldn't play politics when it comes to this.
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Post #1728 by Whit Dickman » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:09 pm

AD wrote:One does not pick up Jainism when violently fucked up. Just like one doesn't pick up Soufism when violently fucked up. (Or the myriad of other mainstream Islamic traditions).

Rather, dude looks at YouTube videos of ISIS. In your argument, those videos are "Islam".

That is just plain wrong.

If you could understand that simple point, there would be no discussion here.


But you agree that picking up that version of Islam was sufficient to at least push him over the edge, yah?

And you agree that it is a version of Islam? And that religions require interpretations? And that there is no one true version of a religion?

Do you think it is random/meaningless/inconsequential that there is a version of Islam that is appeal to violent maniacs but there isn't (and couldn't be) a version of Jainism that is appealing to them?
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Post #1729 by Whit Dickman » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:10 pm

Chaos Reigns wrote:Aaron Driver was a disgruntled and deranged white boy who never talked to other Muslims until he told them they were all fakes and sell-outs for not wanting to behead people. To suggest mainstream Islam had much of anything to do with his radicalization is exactly the amount of fact-free horseshit we've come to expect from the Islamophobia industry airheads.


I'm not sure what you mean by this
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Post #1730 by Whit Dickman » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:17 pm

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
AD wrote:Nope. Its the opposite dog. You don't get it. White dude from the peg read one passage of the Quran and the terroristy supra-effect of one little morsel of Islam made him into a killing machine.

Islam is dangerous man. Its not the people. Its the ideas, man.

Think about it thought.

You are literally making the exact same argument that the NRA makes to combat gun control.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Based on what you have said before, you must believe that if buddy picks up Jainism he still decides to take out Union Station. Yah?


EB, maybe stop using the gun rights comparison until you actually understand their ideology/argument. As demonstrated earlier, you dont understand their views with any degree of depth, and, no, a catchy bumper sticker does not accurately reflect them.

Also: guns are engineered weapons ... religion/ideology is an amorphous, subjective, and constantly changing blob. Really, this is the definition of a bad argument.


I don't understand why you think that my argument has to be representative of the guns rights movement, if that were even possible.

Your last sentence indicates that you simply don't understand analogy.

AD is saying that religions don't kill people: People kill people. Others* say that guns don't kill people: People kill people. It is the same argument. The only reason I bring it up is because I assume AD disagrees with the latter argument, but he evidently agrees with the former.

If some people are inherently evil and will do bad no matter what, why isolate religion [guns]? Same argument.


*Not everyone who has ever argued for gun rights. But some people make this stupid argument. Just a clarification for Jester.
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Post #1731 by Whit Dickman » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:20 pm

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
Dog wrote:Looking like FBI intercepted his "martyr video" and alerted cdn authorities who IDed Driver and went to arrest him as he was getting in a cab. He then detonated a bomb in the cab -slight injuries to cab driver and he was kiiled (not clear if shot by police or from bomb).

Good, quick work on all sides here. Nice.

As for Driver, seems to have been troubled teen turned to radical islam. I found this bit interesting for a 2015 interview with CBC:

"When asked how he turned from devout Muslim to a "radical extremist," Driver said it was a result of reading up on the Middle East online.
"Seeing some of the things that happened in Syria, it infuriates you and it breaks your heart at the same time. And I think that if you know what's going on, you have to do something. Even if you're just speaking about it," Driver told CBC."


Sounds like mainstream islam drove him to terrorism or the much more classical troubled soul leading to radical islam believing they are at war with the West because of geopolitics, eb?

Both? Lots of people have political grievances but don't have an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents


Yes they do. Nationalism, a staple of western ideology for a couple centuries, justifies the killing of innocents all the fucking time.


You disagree with the statement that "Lots of people have political grievances but don't have an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents"

Of course you do... because you can't help but read it as "no one with political grievances has ever had an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents"

Hopeless
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Post #1732 by jester » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:48 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:You disagree with the statement that "Lots of people have political grievances but don't have an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents"

Of course you do... because you can't help but read it as "no one with political grievances has ever had an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents"

Hopeless


No ... because I'm not a bigot attempting to label a billion plus people future terrorists because they're brown and don't think the way I do. I know, Trump's your dude. Also, I've opened a book or two on the history of political violence. Western civilization, for example, has devoted a great deal of thought to just war theory, which absolutely justifies the murder of innocents.

What is hopeless here, is your blinkered view of the past and present. You LIVE in a society marinated in an ideology that justifies the murder of innocents when certain boxes get checked.
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Post #1733 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:04 am

Whit Dickman wrote:I don't understand why you think that my argument has to be representative of the guns rights movement, if that were even possible.

Your last sentence indicates that you simply don't understand analogy.

AD is saying that religions don't kill people: People kill people. Others* say that guns don't kill people: People kill people. It is the same argument. The only reason I bring it up is because I assume AD disagrees with the latter argument, but he evidently agrees with the former.

If some people are inherently evil and will do bad no matter what, why isolate religion [guns]? Same argument.


*Not everyone who has ever argued for gun rights. But some people make this stupid argument. Just a clarification for Jester.


No, I understand the analogy. It's just fucking stupid, eb. It's once again, you attempting to leverage something with which you have the shallowest of understandings into the service of bigotry.

But, sure, lets play the game. Your argument is that religion provides the motivation/justification for violence. How does a weapon provide the motivation/justification for violence? There's a big difference between means (a gun) and motivation/justification, much like there's a big difference between "how" and "why." So, no, it's still a stupid argument.
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Post #1734 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:49 am

Chaos Reigns wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
Chaos Reigns wrote:Aaron Driver was a disgruntled and deranged white boy who never talked to other Muslims until he told them they were all fakes and sell-outs for not wanting to behead people. To suggest mainstream Islam had much of anything to do with his radicalization is exactly the amount of fact-free horseshit we've come to expect from the Islamophobia industry airheads.


I'm not sure what you mean by this


https://theintercept.com/2016/08/12/can ... ting-isis/

"despite his physical and social isolation, over the past several years he had become thoroughly invested in the world of online Islamic State supporters.

“He was enormously active online since late 2014 at least. He was in direct contact with [now-deceased Islamic State hacker] Junaid Hussain, with a whole slew of ISIS fanboys and fangirls, as well as one of the Garland attackers, who he called a friend but also only knew online,” says Amarnath Amarasingam, a fellow at George Washington University’s Program on Extremism, who had previously met Driver. “He always talked about the online community as ‘us.’ He was part of it, got a lot of social and emotional reinforcement from this involvement, and saw it as his role to defend it.”"

...

"Driver had also apparently converted to Islam without meeting any Muslims outside of the internet, telling Amarasingam that his introduction to the religion came from watching YouTube videos. He also expressed his frustration that Muslim leaders and members of the community he had since met were “hypocrites” and “sell-outs.” Despite his admitted lack of real connections with the Muslim community, he said that he was happy that reporters had been reaching out to him for his perspective on political and religious issues."


Imagine living in a place like Turkey where atheism is a four letter word, and some unhinged sumbitch who was previously raised Muslim and his father was an Imam decided to become atheist and thought an important part of atheism was murdering people for being believers, and all of Turkish media started interviewing him about his deep insights into atheism and the 'atheist religion' because the state and society have an invested idea in why atheism is evil and he's a great spokesperson confirming why.


People denigrate atheism all the time. What do I care? If people started killing in the name of atheism (whatever that might mean), it would give me pause. If it made any sense whatsoever, I would consider the source material that might be the source and probably distance myself from atheism.

I don't understand why we care if people are annoyed by their religion getting a bad name. Do we care if Russians are annoyed about anti-Puting rhetoric? (obviously not) There's even less reason to care in this case. People can change their beliefs. If you're born a dirty Russian, you'll always be a dirty Russian. Best you can do is stop caring that you're a dirty Russian. Which is what any reasonable person would do.
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Post #1735 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:52 am

So, empathy isn't a strength for eb.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1736 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:53 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:You disagree with the statement that "Lots of people have political grievances but don't have an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents"

Of course you do... because you can't help but read it as "no one with political grievances has ever had an ideology in which it can be justified to murder innocents"

Hopeless


No ... because I'm not a bigot attempting to label a billion plus people future terrorists because they're brown and don't think the way I do. I know, Trump's your dude. Also, I've opened a book or two on the history of political violence. Western civilization, for example, has devoted a great deal of thought to just war theory, which absolutely justifies the murder of innocents.

What is hopeless here, is your blinkered view of the past and present. You LIVE in a society marinated in an ideology that justifies the murder of innocents when certain boxes get checked.


This is simple. You must be trolling me.

How many people on this planet have political grievances? Many many many

How many kill innocents and justify it using an ideology? Very very few.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1737 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:54 am

jester wrote:So, empathy isn't a strength for eb.

Empathy when it's reasonable.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1738 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:03 am

Whit Dickman wrote:This is simple. You must be trolling me.

How many people on this planet have political grievances? Many many many

How many kill innocents and justify it using an ideology? Very very few.


False.

I suspect you are attempting to apply this at an individual level ... because as a sheltered inhabitant of western civilization, you live with the comfort of violence having been abstracted away from your personal existence and experience due to the state's monopolization of coercive force. As an American citizen, however, I do take it seriously that innocent people are killed on a regular basis "in my name." Importantly, ideology has and continues to play a very important role in justifying those killings--i.e., the "collateral damage" of military operations.

The examples of innocents being killed in the name of ideology are manifold in both the present and recent past ... they just don't come across your radar because you like to view the world through the blinkered perspective of FNC and dead brown people don't count. For an excellent example, look at Israel's recent military operations against Gaza.

What is probably more alarming from your comfortable position is the casual ease with which modern western society has proven it has the ability to mobilize its citizenry to do violence on a mass scale. That is only possible because the justification for extreme levels of violence is a latent and ever present feature of nationalism, etc.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1739 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:04 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:So, empathy isn't a strength for eb.

Empathy when it's reasonable.


Yeah, but fuck those dirty Russians, amirite? And people that think different than you? Dicks.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1740 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:10 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:I don't understand why you think that my argument has to be representative of the guns rights movement, if that were even possible.

Your last sentence indicates that you simply don't understand analogy.

AD is saying that religions don't kill people: People kill people. Others* say that guns don't kill people: People kill people. It is the same argument. The only reason I bring it up is because I assume AD disagrees with the latter argument, but he evidently agrees with the former.

If some people are inherently evil and will do bad no matter what, why isolate religion [guns]? Same argument.


*Not everyone who has ever argued for gun rights. But some people make this stupid argument. Just a clarification for Jester.



No, I understand the analogy. It's just fucking stupid, eb. It's once again, you attempting to leverage something with which you have the shallowest of understandings into the service of bigotry.

But, sure, lets play the game. Your argument is that religion provides the motivation/justification for violence. How does a weapon provide the motivation/justification for violence? There's a big difference between means (a gun) and motivation/justification, much like there's a big difference between "how" and "why." So, no, it's still a stupid argument.

No, my argument is that one should not simultaneously a) agree with the idea that we need gun control because we should care what happens when lunatics are given too easy an opportunity to use something that has the potential to be very dangerous and b) disagree that we should care that Islam provides an easy opportunity for lunatics to latch on to something that has the potential to be very dangerous.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1741 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:13 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:This is simple. You must be trolling me.

How many people on this planet have political grievances? Many many many

How many kill innocents and justify it using an ideology? Very very few.


False.

I suspect you are attempting to apply this at an individual level ... because as a sheltered inhabitant of western civilization, you live with the comfort of violence having been abstracted away from your personal existence and experience due to the state's monopolization of coercive force. As an American citizen, however, I do take it seriously that innocent people are killed on a regular basis "in my name." Importantly, ideology has and continues to play a very important role in justifying those killings--i.e., the "collateral damage" of military operations.

The examples of innocents being killed in the name of ideology are manifold in both the present and recent past ... they just don't come across your radar because you like to view the world through the blinkered perspective of FNC and dead brown people don't count. For an excellent example, look at Israel's recent military operations against Gaza.

What is probably more alarming from your comfortable position is the casual ease with which modern western society has proven it has the ability to mobilize its citizenry to do violence on a mass scale. That is only possible because the justification for extreme levels of violence is a latent and ever present feature of nationalism, etc.


You are a moron. I'm talking about statistics.

Just guess. What proportion of the population kills innocent people? What proportion has political grievances?
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1742 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:14 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:So, empathy isn't a strength for eb.

Empathy when it's reasonable.


Yeah, but fuck those dirty Russians, amirite? And people that think different than you? Dicks.

When the things that they think are based on faith and not thinking, then yes. Fuck them they are dicks
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1743 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:18 am

Whit Dickman wrote:No, my argument is that one should not simultaneously a) agree with the idea that we need gun control because we should care what happens when lunatics are given too easy an opportunity to use something that has the potential to be very dangerous and b) disagree that we should care that Islam provides an easy opportunity for lunatics to latch on to something that has the potential to be very dangerous.


These are two different things, eb. Which is why it's a fucking stupid analogy.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1744 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:25 am

Whit Dickman wrote:You are a moron. I'm talking about statistics.

Just guess. What proportion of the population kills innocent people? What proportion has political grievances?


No, I'm not, and you're engaging in conjecture not a statistical argument. If you want to go that route and use small samples ... what proportion of the global Muslim population engages in killing innocents? (Hint: it's pretty small.)

It's interesting, however, that you narrowly associate ideological violence with "political grievance" here. Suggests, once again, you haven't really considered the topic all that deeply. One does not have to have "political grievance" to kill in the name of an ideology. Indeed, one of the benefits (?) of many militarized ideologies is that they provide the justification for violence against individuals with whom you have no direct animosity.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1745 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:29 am

Whit Dickman wrote:When the things that they think are based on faith and not thinking, then yes. Fuck them they are dicks


Well, you seem to put a lot of faith in the notion that you are right ... so, yeah, that's a nice authoritarian stance to take, I guess.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1746 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:39 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:When the things that they think are based on faith and not thinking, then yes. Fuck them they are dicks


Well, you seem to put a lot of faith in the notion that you are right ... so, yeah, that's a nice authoritarian stance to take, I guess.


'Right' is not the word. I'd rather say 'not obviously wrong'. Unlike religions in which it is believed that some invisible man cares about what people do with their penises.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1747 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:45 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:No, my argument is that one should not simultaneously a) agree with the idea that we need gun control because we should care what happens when lunatics are given too easy an opportunity to use something that has the potential to be very dangerous and b) disagree that we should care that Islam provides an easy opportunity for lunatics to latch on to something that has the potential to be very dangerous.


These are two different things, eb. Which is why it's a fucking stupid analogy.


Look up the definition of analogy
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1748 by Whit Dickman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:48 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:You are a moron. I'm talking about statistics.

Just guess. What proportion of the population kills innocent people? What proportion has political grievances?


No, I'm not, and you're engaging in conjecture not a statistical argument. If you want to go that route and use small samples ... what proportion of the global Muslim population engages in killing innocents? (Hint: it's pretty small.)

It's interesting, however, that you narrowly associate ideological violence with "political grievance" here. Suggests, once again, you haven't really considered the topic all that deeply. One does not have to have "political grievance" to kill in the name of an ideology. Indeed, one of the benefits (?) of many militarized ideologies is that they provide the justification for violence against individuals with whom you have no direct animosity.


I made a statement for a specific reason, which I'm not going to bother explaining to you. Because it was bloody obvious. You attacked the statement, although it was obviously true. You are now obfuscating because you're a moron.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1749 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:04 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:I made a statement for a specific reason, which I'm not going to bother explaining to you. Because it was bloody obvious. You attacked the statement, although it was obviously true. You are now obfuscating because you're a moron.


So, basically you don't want to cop to your own hypocrisy? A very small minority of Muslims embrace violent acts against innocents ... which condemns all of Islam. A very small minority of (pretty much everyone else) likewise embraces and/or justifies violent acts against innocents ... Islam is still evil!

I'm not obfuscating, eb. I'm challenging you on your BS bigotry and, as is usually the case when this gets rolling again, you're sputtering.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1750 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:13 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:No, my argument is that one should not simultaneously a) agree with the idea that we need gun control because we should care what happens when lunatics are given too easy an opportunity to use something that has the potential to be very dangerous and b) disagree that we should care that Islam provides an easy opportunity for lunatics to latch on to something that has the potential to be very dangerous.


These are two different things, eb. Which is why it's a fucking stupid analogy.


Look up the definition of analogy


Look up definition of "apples to oranges."

But for fun, lets break this one down.

Motivation/Justification -> Actor -> Means/Tool -> Violent Act

Specifically to your analogy ...

Religion -> Person -> Gun -> Violent Act

Abstracted:

A -> B -> C -> D

Your analogy is comparing the relationship between A and B, and B and C. On its face, this is absurd ... and I suspect you realize that, you're just being stubborn and don't want to back down from your pejorative analogy because you're quite fond of it and much like racism the gun rights lobby is an easy target for you. There is an inherent problem, however. The salient feature of the "religion doesn't kill people, people kill people ..." argument is that religion is not something that can actually act in the physical world. It only manifests itself through the actions of people. We do not need to fear for stray religious ideology bullets ... we need to worry about asshole actors. Now, to your actual point, we certainly need to pay attention to violent ideologies and attempt to steer people clear of them (but, as per post above, you still need to grapple with a small sample problem if you want to lambast Islam writ large). The relationship between Person -> Gun -> Violent Act is fundamentally different. You are citing an argument--guns don't kill people, people kill people--that is attempting to deflect from the fact that guns make people more efficient at killing other people. These are two different, and non-comparable things ... they are not analogous, unless you are being purposefully disingenuous (and, frankly, you very well might be).

As said previously, it is an analogy that treats the questions "how" and "why" as one and the same.

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