IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1751 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:15 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:When the things that they think are based on faith and not thinking, then yes. Fuck them they are dicks


Well, you seem to put a lot of faith in the notion that you are right ... so, yeah, that's a nice authoritarian stance to take, I guess.


'Right' is not the word. I'd rather say 'not obviously wrong'. Unlike religions in which it is believed that some invisible man cares about what people do with their penises.


So, what do we do with those believers, eb? Ideological litmus tests before they can be accepted into society? Final Solution?

Does it concern you that you would be right at home with the folks at a Trump rally?
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1752 by Dog » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:35 pm

It's a shame that eb keeps on gratuitously conflating radical islamism with mainstream islam. There is interesting discussions to be had regarding radical islamism and mainstream religion, they are just two different discussions.

One is a discussion on religious thinking and its effects on humanity (i'd suggest it's far from the only irrational thought system and that rationalism isn't the holy grail he believes it to be anywho) -but that's one discussion and not the one we are having.

The other pertains to islamism (political islam) which I see (but i'm really no expert) as very akin to nationalism. Islam being used to cultuvate an in-group identity and using that identity to oppose/contrast with out-groups. It seems to me that perhaps contrary to other religions islam has been used as a nationalist rallying point and that it is problematic that it has. However, I don't see that as much different than any other nationalist rallying cries (ethnicity, ideology, empty calls to "freedom" or other values, etc.) -basically, I don't pin islamisms roots on Islam itself but on sociological and geopolitical factors, the same way I don't pin wars justufied by references to freedom as finding their root motivation in liberal thinking -both just call on a perceived shared value to rally the masses.

It is troubling to me that islamism does seem to have heavy popular support, at least in the MENA. But, is that much different than other forms of nationalism/tribalism elsewhere? I find it interesting that islamism does not seem anywhere as popular with more the educated urban classes than with poorer more rural classes. Is that that different than in the West? Cities (among other demographic factors) tend to foster liberalism, while more rural life more traditional/conservatist leanings. Can we draw a high level parallel between "white value/anti foreigner" Trumpkinnism and Islamism? I think so.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1753 by jester » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:55 pm

Right, there's ugly everywhere ... but if you're a pretty well off (older) angry white man -- the core of Trump's support -- are you really going to do a whole lot more than get riled up at a rally, maybe engage in some low-level drunken violence, etc.? Of course, this is also why Trump's rhetoric angling towards challenging the legitimacy of the election is so troubling.
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1754 by Dog » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:06 pm

More disenfranchised idiots have been known to blow up a federal building or two. The call for eletion night vigilantes on the lookout for electoral rigging could really turn election night into a third world fiasco with intimidation and perhaps violence at some polling stations. Probably not widespread or influencing the end result, but still a horrifying development for a democracy -especially in a country as powerful as the US.
User avatar
IcE ColD
Registered Broad
Posts: 35892
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:37 pm
Location: Out of Purgatory
Has given rep: 29 times
Received rep: 63 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1755 by IcE ColD » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:31 pm

Deux poids, deux mesures.

Sounds about right.
Society is actually a bunch of flawed primates guided by selfishness, fear, and superstitious bullshit.

David Wong - 19/12/2016
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1756 by Dog » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:10 pm

I like that france is forcing women to undress at the beach. Maybe they can ban one piece bathing suits next (except for the fatties, obvs).
User avatar
Retarder S
Registered Broad
Posts: 15507
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:18 pm
Has given rep: 405 times
Received rep: 334 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1757 by Retarder S » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:03 am

I wasn't aware of burkinis.

Religion is fucking evil.
User avatar
Retarder S
Registered Broad
Posts: 15507
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:18 pm
Has given rep: 405 times
Received rep: 334 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1758 by Retarder S » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:04 am

Well that one in particular. :danson:
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1759 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:17 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:I made a statement for a specific reason, which I'm not going to bother explaining to you. Because it was bloody obvious. You attacked the statement, although it was obviously true. You are now obfuscating because you're a moron.


So, basically you don't want to cop to your own hypocrisy? A very small minority of Muslims embrace violent acts against innocents ... which condemns all of Islam. A very small minority of (pretty much everyone else) likewise embraces and/or justifies violent acts against innocents ... Islam is still evil!

I'm not obfuscating, eb. I'm challenging you on your BS bigotry and, as is usually the case when this gets rolling again, you're sputtering.


I'M NOT ARGUING THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE HAVE IDEOLOGIES THAT ARE USED TO JUSTIFY THE KILLING OF INNOCENTS ARE MUSLIMS.

I'm saying thay there are many people with political grievances, but that don't have an ideology (islam, nationalism, whatever) that justifies the killing of innocents. These people kill fewer innocents.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1760 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:19 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
These are two different things, eb. Which is why it's a fucking stupid analogy.


Look up the definition of analogy


Look up definition of "apples to oranges."

But for fun, lets break this one down.

Motivation/Justification -> Actor -> Means/Tool -> Violent Act

Specifically to your analogy ...

Religion -> Person -> Gun -> Violent Act

Abstracted:

A -> B -> C -> D

Your analogy is comparing the relationship between A and B, and B and C. On its face, this is absurd ... and I suspect you realize that, you're just being stubborn and don't want to back down from your pejorative analogy because you're quite fond of it and much like racism the gun rights lobby is an easy target for you. There is an inherent problem, however. The salient feature of the "religion doesn't kill people, people kill people ..." argument is that religion is not something that can actually act in the physical world. It only manifests itself through the actions of people. We do not need to fear for stray religious ideology bullets ... we need to worry about asshole actors. Now, to your actual point, we certainly need to pay attention to violent ideologies and attempt to steer people clear of them (but, as per post above, you still need to grapple with a small sample problem if you want to lambast Islam writ large). The relationship between Person -> Gun -> Violent Act is fundamentally different. You are citing an argument--guns don't kill people, people kill people--that is attempting to deflect from the fact that guns make people more efficient at killing other people. These are two different, and non-comparable things ... they are not analogous, unless you are being purposefully disingenuous (and, frankly, you very well might be).

As said previously, it is an analogy that treats the questions "how" and "why" as one and the same.


You've confused a causal chain with an analogy
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1761 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:22 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
Well, you seem to put a lot of faith in the notion that you are right ... so, yeah, that's a nice authoritarian stance to take, I guess.


'Right' is not the word. I'd rather say 'not obviously wrong'. Unlike religions in which it is believed that some invisible man cares about what people do with their penises.


So, what do we do with those believers, eb? Ideological litmus tests before they can be accepted into society? Final Solution?

Does it concern you that you would be right at home with the folks at a Trump rally?


What do we do with racists, jesrer? Ideological litmustests before they can be accepted into society? Final solution?

I would not at all be at home at a trump rally.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1762 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:22 am

Whit Dickman wrote:You've confused a causal chain with an analogy


No, I haven't.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1763 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:25 am

Whit Dickman wrote:What do we do with racists, jesrer? Ideological litmustests before they can be accepted into society? Final solution?


No, we just accept them into a homogeneous, liberal society ... but, of course, one can be quite racist and non-violent about it. You are arguing that Islam is an inherently dangerous ideology, that supports the murder of innocents, and is going to result in the institution of Sharia law and all of us being beheaded by a swarthy man wearing black!

I just peed a little.

I would not at all be at home at a trump rally.


Well, then you might want to modify your argument a bit.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1764 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:30 am

Whit Dickman wrote:I'M NOT ARGUING THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE HAVE IDEOLOGIES THAT ARE USED TO JUSTIFY THE KILLING OF INNOCENTS ARE MUSLIMS.

I'm saying thay there are many people with political grievances, but that don't have an ideology (islam, nationalism, whatever) that justifies the killing of innocents. These people kill fewer innocents.


Well, that's great. Sadly they're not the majority you seem to think that they are. Those Jainists you love so much ... not a big group.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1765 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:34 am

Dog wrote:It's a shame that eb keeps on gratuitously conflating radical islamism with mainstream islam. There is interesting discussions to be had regarding radical islamism and mainstream religion, they are just two different discussions.

One is a discussion on religious thinking and its effects on humanity (i'd suggest it's far from the only irrational thought system and that rationalism isn't the holy grail he believes it to be anywho) -but that's one discussion and not the one we are having.

The other pertains to islamism (political islam) which I see (but i'm really no expert) as very akin to nationalism. Islam being used to cultuvate an in-group identity and using that identity to oppose/contrast with out-groups. It seems to me that perhaps contrary to other religions islam has been used as a nationalist rallying point and that it is problematic that it has. However, I don't see that as much different than any other nationalist rallying cries (ethnicity, ideology, empty calls to "freedom" or other values, etc.) -basically, I don't pin islamisms roots on Islam itself but on sociological and geopolitical factors, the same way I don't pin wars justufied by references to freedom as finding their root motivation in liberal thinking -both just call on a perceived shared value to rally the masses.

It is troubling to me that islamism does seem to have heavy popular support, at least in the MENA. But, is that much different than other forms of nationalism/tribalism elsewhere? I find it interesting that islamism does not seem anywhere as popular with more the educated urban classes than with poorer more rural classes. Is that that different than in the West? Cities (among other demographic factors) tend to foster liberalism, while more rural life more traditional/conservatist leanings. Can we draw a high level parallel between "white value/anti foreigner" Trumpkinnism and Islamism? I think so.


Well put, but I don't think those issues can be separated so easily. Political Islam gains its power through a connection to the sacred. It can't be questioned at a fundamental level. A muslim can only ever say that they have a 'more pure' version of the religion. But the religion is based on an untestable and unreasonable supernatural foundation. 'Purity' is impossible to determine and even harder to argue.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1766 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:36 am

Chaos Reigns wrote:I think it's hilarious that as Trump is ascendant with an articulated Islamophobia approaching the antisemitism of Europe in the '30s, and as life in America as a Muslim is becoming scarier by the day because of deranged white men murdering them or ripping off hijabs and beating them, that this doesn't even register for EB as significant and he pops up to discuss how a mentally ill white boy who became an ISIS fanboy on Twitter is emblematic of moderate Islam.

Don't presume what is or is not significant to me. I popped up because I had spare time and merely felt like responding to something AD said.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1767 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:38 am

Dog wrote:I like that france is forcing women to undress at the beach. Maybe they can ban one piece bathing suits next (except for the fatties, obvs).

I think we can all agree that that is stupid
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1768 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:41 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:What do we do with racists, jesrer? Ideological litmustests before they can be accepted into society? Final solution?


No, we just accept them into a homogeneous, liberal society ... but, of course, one can be quite racist and non-violent about it. You are arguing that Islam is an inherently dangerous ideology, that supports the murder of innocents, and is going to result in the institution of Sharia law and all of us being beheaded by a swarthy man wearing black!

I just peed a little.

I would not at all be at home at a trump rally.


Well, then you might want to modify your argument a bit.


Islam collectively isn't as bad as racism. There is some good with thr bad with Islam. Racism is entirely bad. But of course you assume that I think all muslims are evil. After all this time you haven't grasped my argument.

I can't possibly modify my argument enough for you to understand it.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1769 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:42 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:I'M NOT ARGUING THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE HAVE IDEOLOGIES THAT ARE USED TO JUSTIFY THE KILLING OF INNOCENTS ARE MUSLIMS.

I'm saying thay there are many people with political grievances, but that don't have an ideology (islam, nationalism, whatever) that justifies the killing of innocents. These people kill fewer innocents.


Well, that's great. Sadly they're not the majority you seem to think that they are. Those Jainists you love so much ... not a big group.

What the hell do you think qualifies as a political grievance? I would say that most people have them. Very few kill innocent people. Holy fuck jester
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1770 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:44 am

Whit Dickman wrote:Well put, but I don't think those issues can be separated so easily. Political Islam gains its power through a connection to the sacred. It can't be questioned at a fundamental level. A muslim can only ever say that they have a 'more pure' version of the religion. But the religion is based on an untestable and unreasonable supernatural foundation. 'Purity' is impossible to determine and even harder to argue.


Here's the thing ... there is literally nothing special about this in the dynamics of politically associated violence. The very same formula rests at the heart of nationalism, and the very same competing claims about purity, etc. take place within it -- i.e., "Real America" v. whatever the rest of it is. Similar dynamics have existed within ideologies such as socialism, etc. Essentially, what you're complaining about here is a central feature of most ideologies that aim to organize and mobilize large collections of people.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1771 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:48 am

Whit Dickman wrote:What the hell do you think qualifies as a political grievance? I would say that most people have them. Very few kill innocent people. Holy fuck jester


eb, as previously noted ... focusing on political grievances is a singularly useless point to fixate on, and, again, demonstrates that you really haven't thought this shit through as much as you seem to think you have. One of the most important aspects of militarized ideologies--nationalism especially--is that they can mobilize individuals to commit violent acts in the absence of a direct political grievance. Seriously, this is one of the most notable features of the 20th c. Open a book.

It is certainly true that political grievances play a role in radical islam, etc. today, but it's interesting that you would focus on that so directly as part of a general critique of religion given that there are plenty of instances of "religiously motivated" violence that have nothing to do with a political grievance.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1772 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:52 am

Whit Dickman wrote:Islam collectively isn't as bad as racism. There is some good with thr bad with Islam. Racism is entirely bad. But of course you assume that I think all muslims are evil. After all this time you haven't grasped my argument.

I can't possibly modify my argument enough for you to understand it.


No, you just assume that they are carriers of an ideological plague because they have faith in something that says something about your penis or something and that makes you uncomfortable. Good folks other than that ... they're just stupid, you look down on them, and empathy is wasted on them.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1773 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:13 am

The problem with talking to you, jester, is that by the time I've waded through 2 or 3 of your ridiculous strawmen, I no longer have any energy to address whatever points might actually have something to do with something that I said.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1774 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:14 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:Islam collectively isn't as bad as racism. There is some good with thr bad with Islam. Racism is entirely bad. But of course you assume that I think all muslims are evil. After all this time you haven't grasped my argument.

I can't possibly modify my argument enough for you to understand it.


No, you just assume that they are carriers of an ideological plague because they have faith in something that says something about your penis or something and that makes you uncomfortable. Good folks other than that ... they're just stupid, you look down on them, and empathy is wasted on them.


Well this doesn't require much energy to figure out it's a strawman.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1775 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:15 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:Well put, but I don't think those issues can be separated so easily. Political Islam gains its power through a connection to the sacred. It can't be questioned at a fundamental level. A muslim can only ever say that they have a 'more pure' version of the religion. But the religion is based on an untestable and unreasonable supernatural foundation. 'Purity' is impossible to determine and even harder to argue.


Here's the thing ... there is literally nothing special about this in the dynamics of politically associated violence. The very same formula rests at the heart of nationalism, and the very same competing claims about purity, etc. take place within it -- i.e., "Real America" v. whatever the rest of it is. Similar dynamics have existed within ideologies such as socialism, etc. Essentially, what you're complaining about here is a central feature of most ideologies that aim to organize and mobilize large collections of people.


What do you mean by dynamics?
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1776 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:17 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:What the hell do you think qualifies as a political grievance? I would say that most people have them. Very few kill innocent people. Holy fuck jester


eb, as previously noted ... focusing on political grievances is a singularly useless point to fixate on, and, again, demonstrates that you really haven't thought this shit through as much as you seem to think you have. One of the most important aspects of militarized ideologies--nationalism especially--is that they can mobilize individuals to commit violent acts in the absence of a direct political grievance. Seriously, this is one of the most notable features of the 20th c. Open a book.

It is certainly true that political grievances play a role in radical islam, etc. today, but it's interesting that you would focus on that so directly as part of a general critique of religion given that there are plenty of instances of "religiously motivated" violence that have nothing to do with a political grievance.


I brought up political grievances because it pertained to my convo with AD. If you aren't following the conversation, don't comment.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1777 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:17 am

Whit Dickman wrote:Well this doesn't require much energy to figure out it's a strawman.


Straight from the horse's mouth:

Whit Dickman wrote:When the things that they think are based on faith and not thinking, then yes. Fuck them they are dicks
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1778 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:18 am

Whit Dickman wrote:I brought up political grievances because it pertained to my convo with AD. If you aren't following the conversation, don't comment.


We're all following the convo, eb. You can do better than this.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1779 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:20 am

Whit Dickman wrote:What do you mean by dynamics?


... the literal definition of the word. If you want a specific example, the "nation" holds a sacred place within nationalist ideology. In fact, the rise of nationalist ideology so closely correlated with the declining strength of Christendom in western society because nationalist actively swapped the church out for the nation. Significantly, the nation is often just as fictive an myth based as religion.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1780 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:25 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:Well this doesn't require much energy to figure out it's a strawman.


Straight from the horse's mouth:

Whit Dickman wrote:When the things that they think are based on faith and not thinking, then yes. Fuck them they are dicks

Ideological plague?
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1781 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:31 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:Well this doesn't require much energy to figure out it's a strawman.


Straight from the horse's mouth:

Whit Dickman wrote:When the things that they think are based on faith and not thinking, then yes. Fuck them they are dicks

Ideological plague?


That uniquely attracts and motivates "violent maniacs," according to you:

Whit Dickman wrote:Do you think it is random/meaningless/inconsequential that there is a version of Islam that is appeal to violent maniacs but there isn't (and couldn't be) a version of Jainism that is appealing to them?


I mean, the implication here (really, your entire spiel) is that Islam's association with violent acts isn't random, isn't meaningless, and most certainly is consequential. What we should do about these problem you leave unsaid, much like Trump leaves unsaid what the "Second Amendment people" are supposed to do about Clinton.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1782 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:33 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:What do you mean by dynamics?


... the literal definition of the word. If you want a specific example, the "nation" holds a sacred place within nationalist ideology. In fact, the rise of nationalist ideology so closely correlated with the declining strength of Christendom in western society because nationalist actively swapped the church out for the nation. Significantly, the nation is often just as fictive an myth based as religion.

Well obviously I disagree because I was making the opposite point. All you did was say the opposite and give it some jargon. Said very matter-of-factly, but obviously a debatable point.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1783 by Whit Dickman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:35 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
Straight from the horse's mouth:


Ideological plague?


That uniquely attracts and motivates "violent maniacs," according to you:

Whit Dickman wrote:Do you think it is random/meaningless/inconsequential that there is a version of Islam that is appeal to violent maniacs but there isn't (and couldn't be) a version of Jainism that is appealing to them?


I mean, the implication here (really, your entire spiel) is that Islam's association with violent acts isn't random, isn't meaningless, and most certainly is consequential. What we should do about these problem you leave unsaid, much like Trump leaves unsaid what the "Second Amendment people" are supposed to do about Clinton.


Specific, not unique. I'll say it for the last goddamn time.

Just because you take it to mean something sinister is not my problem. I could say the same about anti-racism and it would be just as stupid as your point.
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1784 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:37 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:What do you mean by dynamics?


... the literal definition of the word. If you want a specific example, the "nation" holds a sacred place within nationalist ideology. In fact, the rise of nationalist ideology so closely correlated with the declining strength of Christendom in western society because nationalist actively swapped the church out for the nation. Significantly, the nation is often just as fictive an myth based as religion.

Well obviously I disagree because I was making the opposite point. All you did was say the opposite and give it some jargon. Said very matter-of-factly, but obviously a debatable point.


No, I did not say the opposite. I don't disagree with anything you said about political Islam, but I'm challenging the continued assertion that there is something special about that. Are you debating that nationalist ideology is built around a notion that the "nation" is a sacred entity worth defending and dying for?
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1785 by jester » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:45 am

Whit Dickman wrote:Specific, not unique. I'll say it for the last goddamn time.

Just because you take it to mean something sinister is not my problem. I could say the same about anti-racism and it would be just as stupid as your point.


... you never answer the important question, eb. THAT is why it is fundamentally sinister. Lets assume you are right. Islam is a very real and present danger to civil society. It supports the murder of innocents, and it will continue to lead to the murder of innocents.

What do you propose we do about that? There's a fundamental intellectual cowardice to advancing the argument you are making and then throwing up your hands when asked about the consequences of it. Of course, this has long been a problem with the arguments coming out of the Harris and co. camp along these lines. In the sanitized environment of academic debate they seem so innocuous, but in the cold light of reality they are at root the underpinnings of imperialism and aggressive use of military force against peoples.
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1786 by Dog » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:52 am

Wrong fred. I'll be back!
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1787 by Dog » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:07 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
... the literal definition of the word. If you want a specific example, the "nation" holds a sacred place within nationalist ideology. In fact, the rise of nationalist ideology so closely correlated with the declining strength of Christendom in western society because nationalist actively swapped the church out for the nation. Significantly, the nation is often just as fictive an myth based as religion.

Well obviously I disagree because I was making the opposite point. All you did was say the opposite and give it some jargon. Said very matter-of-factly, but obviously a debatable point.


No, I did not say the opposite. I don't disagree with anything you said about political Islam, but I'm challenging the continued assertion that there is something special about that. Are you debating that nationalist ideology is built around a notion that the "nation" is a sacred entity worth defending and dying for?


I think this is the crux of it and i could not say it better than jester so won't. I'd encourage you eb to try to separate your over-reaching dislike for religion and the current discussion. At least be very conscious of it. You'll find little opposition here that islamism (particularly of the more radical varieties) is quite problematic. The debate here is whether that is a function of a human dynamic that has parralels with other belief systems (such as nationalism) or whether it stems (at least in good part) from islam itself. The argument others are making here is that islamism is very akin to nationalism -people coming together around a common identity and, when it gets problematic, using that defined in-group to reject (or worse) out groups. Taken in that sense, how is militant islamism different from other strong nationalist/ideological movements from communism, ethno-centered movements, etc.)?
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1788 by Whit Dickman » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:30 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
jester wrote:
... the literal definition of the word. If you want a specific example, the "nation" holds a sacred place within nationalist ideology. In fact, the rise of nationalist ideology so closely correlated with the declining strength of Christendom in western society because nationalist actively swapped the church out for the nation. Significantly, the nation is often just as fictive an myth based as religion.

Well obviously I disagree because I was making the opposite point. All you did was say the opposite and give it some jargon. Said very matter-of-factly, but obviously a debatable point.


No, I did not say the opposite. I don't disagree with anything you said about political Islam, but I'm challenging the continued assertion that there is something special about that. Are you debating that nationalist ideology is built around a notion that the "nation" is a sacred entity worth defending and dying for?


I don't know what you mean by "something special".
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1789 by Whit Dickman » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:32 am

jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:Specific, not unique. I'll say it for the last goddamn time.

Just because you take it to mean something sinister is not my problem. I could say the same about anti-racism and it would be just as stupid as your point.


... you never answer the important question, eb. THAT is why it is fundamentally sinister. Lets assume you are right. Islam is a very real and present danger to civil society. It supports the murder of innocents, and it will continue to lead to the murder of innocents.

What do you propose we do about that? There's a fundamental intellectual cowardice to advancing the argument you are making and then throwing up your hands when asked about the consequences of it. Of course, this has long been a problem with the arguments coming out of the Harris and co. camp along these lines. In the sanitized environment of academic debate they seem so innocuous, but in the cold light of reality they are at root the underpinnings of imperialism and aggressive use of military force against peoples.


If racism is so sinister, what should we do about it? Final solution? FINAL SOLUTION JESTER? Jester wants us to kill all racists everyone
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1790 by Whit Dickman » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:40 am

Dog wrote:
jester wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:Well obviously I disagree because I was making the opposite point. All you did was say the opposite and give it some jargon. Said very matter-of-factly, but obviously a debatable point.


No, I did not say the opposite. I don't disagree with anything you said about political Islam, but I'm challenging the continued assertion that there is something special about that. Are you debating that nationalist ideology is built around a notion that the "nation" is a sacred entity worth defending and dying for?


I think this is the crux of it and i could not say it better than jester so won't. I'd encourage you eb to try to separate your over-reaching dislike for religion and the current discussion. At least be very conscious of it. You'll find little opposition here that islamism (particularly of the more radical varieties) is quite problematic. The debate here is whether that is a function of a human dynamic that has parralels with other belief systems (such as nationalism) or whether it stems (at least in good part) from islam itself. The argument others are making here is that islamism is very akin to nationalism -people coming together around a common identity and, when it gets problematic, using that defined in-group to reject (or worse) out groups. Taken in that sense, how is militant islamism different from other strong nationalist/ideological movements from communism, ethno-centered movements, etc.)?


I do think that religions hold more power than nations, which seem more fleeting. They also are capable of touching more people. There are similarities with nationalism, but religions are so versatile that even biter defeat or prosecution can be reinterpreted as victory.
User avatar
vf
Registered Broad
Posts: 16344
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:31 pm
Has given rep: 259 times
Received rep: 168 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1791 by vf » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:11 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:
Dog wrote:
jester wrote:
No, I did not say the opposite. I don't disagree with anything you said about political Islam, but I'm challenging the continued assertion that there is something special about that. Are you debating that nationalist ideology is built around a notion that the "nation" is a sacred entity worth defending and dying for?


I think this is the crux of it and i could not say it better than jester so won't. I'd encourage you eb to try to separate your over-reaching dislike for religion and the current discussion. At least be very conscious of it. You'll find little opposition here that islamism (particularly of the more radical varieties) is quite problematic. The debate here is whether that is a function of a human dynamic that has parralels with other belief systems (such as nationalism) or whether it stems (at least in good part) from islam itself. The argument others are making here is that islamism is very akin to nationalism -people coming together around a common identity and, when it gets problematic, using that defined in-group to reject (or worse) out groups. Taken in that sense, how is militant islamism different from other strong nationalist/ideological movements from communism, ethno-centered movements, etc.)?


I do think that religions hold more power than nations, which seem more fleeting. They also are capable of touching more people. There are similarities with nationalism, but religions are so versatile that even biter defeat or prosecution can be reinterpreted as victory.


Don't lots of nations interpret negative global events as positives for them? The US declared mission complete in Iraq when it was a crock of shit, North Korea lands on the moon every other week, and Turkey suffers from multiple coups in a single night.
User avatar
Whit Dickman
Registered Broad
Posts: 2896
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 pm
Has given rep: 22 times
Received rep: 106 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1792 by Whit Dickman » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:41 am

vf wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
Dog wrote:i

I think this is the crux of it and i could not say it better than jester so won't. I'd encourage you eb to try to separate your over-reaching dislike for religion and the current discussion. At least be very conscious of it. You'll find little opposition here that islamism (particularly of the more radical varieties) is quite problematic. The debate here is whether that is a function of a human dynamic that has parralels with other belief systems (such as nationalism) or whether it stems (at least in good part) from islam itself. The argument others are making here is that islamism is very akin to nationalism -people coming together around a common identity and, when it gets problematic, using that defined in-group to reject (or worse) out groups. Taken in that sense, how is militant islamism different from other strong nationalist/ideological movements from communism, ethno-centered movements, etc.)?


I do think that religions hold more power than nations, which seem more fleeting. They also are capable of touching more people. There are similarities with nationalism, but religions are so versatile that even biter defeat or prosecution can be reinterpreted as victory.


Don't lots of nations interpret negative global events as positives for them? The US declared mission complete in Iraq when it was a crock of shit, North Korea lands on the moon every other week, and Turkey suffers from multiple coups in a single night.


Of course, but we're talking about the masses. Those things are ofter hard to sell, except in extreme cases where a lot od top down work is put into propoganda. Religion doesn't need that much work. And counterevidence for supernatural religious claims are much less evident and easier to ignore than is counterevidence for nationalistic claims. By the nature of the topic, this is true. 'It's a miracle' vs 'the lord works in mysterious ways'
User avatar
jester
Registered Broad
Posts: 17067
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:38 pm
Has given rep: 8 times
Received rep: 74 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1793 by jester » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:58 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
vf wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
I do think that religions hold more power than nations, which seem more fleeting. They also are capable of touching more people. There are similarities with nationalism, but religions are so versatile that even biter defeat or prosecution can be reinterpreted as victory.


Don't lots of nations interpret negative global events as positives for them? The US declared mission complete in Iraq when it was a crock of shit, North Korea lands on the moon every other week, and Turkey suffers from multiple coups in a single night.


Of course, but we're talking about the masses. Those things are ofter hard to sell, except in extreme cases where a lot od top down work is put into propoganda. Religion doesn't need that much work. And counterevidence for supernatural religious claims are much less evident and easier to ignore than is counterevidence for nationalistic claims. By the nature of the topic, this is true. 'It's a miracle' vs 'the lord works in mysterious ways'


... religious history suggest that religion requires a lot of work, and a lot of sacrifice (by individuals doing the work and their desired adherents to the faith). But, sure, whatevs. So much of this devolves down into #lolnothingmatters, anyway.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and guess you've done little to no reading on the history of nationalism.
User avatar
Dog
Registered Broad
Posts: 53336
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:53 pm
Has given rep: 1065 times
Received rep: 650 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1794 by Dog » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:20 pm

L'islam de France.

Lol!
User avatar
vf
Registered Broad
Posts: 16344
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:31 pm
Has given rep: 259 times
Received rep: 168 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1795 by vf » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:10 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:
vf wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:
I do think that religions hold more power than nations, which seem more fleeting. They also are capable of touching more people. There are similarities with nationalism, but religions are so versatile that even biter defeat or prosecution can be reinterpreted as victory.


Don't lots of nations interpret negative global events as positives for them? The US declared mission complete in Iraq when it was a crock of shit, North Korea lands on the moon every other week, and Turkey suffers from multiple coups in a single night.


Of course, but we're talking about the masses. Those things are ofter hard to sell, except in extreme cases where a lot od top down work is put into propoganda. Religion doesn't need that much work. And counterevidence for supernatural religious claims are much less evident and easier to ignore than is counterevidence for nationalistic claims. By the nature of the topic, this is true. 'It's a miracle' vs 'the lord works in mysterious ways'


The masses are a stupid slobbering horde ready to lap whatever propaganda is laid down in front of them no matter how lazy the effort is in doing it.
User avatar
Retarder S
Registered Broad
Posts: 15507
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:18 pm
Has given rep: 405 times
Received rep: 334 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1796 by Retarder S » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:57 pm

User avatar
AD
Posts: 67329
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:30 pm
Location: Here
Has given rep: 322 times
Received rep: 394 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1797 by AD » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:58 pm

Welcome to Monday Retarder.
User avatar
Retarder S
Registered Broad
Posts: 15507
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:18 pm
Has given rep: 405 times
Received rep: 334 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1798 by Retarder S » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:21 pm

It's the intention that truly counts.
User avatar
vonbonds
Registered Broad
Posts: 10672
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:47 pm
Has given rep: 914 times
Received rep: 465 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1799 by vonbonds » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:02 pm

I don't like skittles. Never tasted a Syrian before though
User avatar
MP
Registered Broad
Posts: 27690
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:13 pm
Location: :uoıʇɐɔoן
Has given rep: 145 times
Received rep: 272 times

Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1800 by MP » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:22 pm

Retarder S wrote:https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/778016283342307328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Sure I would. I could tell by the colour of their skin which ones to avoid...

Return to “Le mur de messages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests