IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1801 by Retarder S » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:55 pm

MP wrote:
Retarder S wrote:https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/778016283342307328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Sure I would. I could tell by the colour of their skin which ones to avoid...

Image

It's all about the facial hair
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1802 by AD » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:39 am

Do you read French EB?

There is a fascinating study released rhis morning (conducted on 2000 aged 16-25ers) that showed that religiosity reduced the risk of violent radicalisation.
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Post #1803 by Slick Nick » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:45 am

AD wrote:Do you read French EB?

There is a fascinating study released rhis morning (conducted on 2000 aged 16-25ers) that showed that religiosity reduced the risk of violent radicalisation.


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You almost got us.

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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1804 by Slick Nick » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:50 am

AD I don't want you to think that I share EB's ideas, because I really don't. As an immigrant myself who went through classe d'accueil and everything, and generally an open minded person, I do not fear radicalisation and terrorism but I am nonetheless concerned by the rising levels of immigration and perceived lack of integration (mostly because there is no geographical redistribution of these immigrants) in the last decade.. The fascinating study you quote though seems not very in line with the conclusions that our fascinating press has drawn and put up as first page material...the sampling is 68% women, 9% of migrants from worldwide and 7% of people who identify with Islam or other religions... basically 70% of the sample is 17 years old girls of which 90% declared to be either atheist of christian (or in other terms 95% of the sampling did not associate with Islam) and concluded they were not radicalised and that the higher religious scores where somehow correlated to less radicalisation, then extrapolated to a wider population and presented it as an argument in defence of muslim immigration.

La majorité est née au Canada (81%), et 4% sont nés en Afrique du Nord/Maghreb, 5% en
Europe et les autres, en plus faible proportion, sont nés en Afrique, en Asie, dans les Caraïbes, au
Moyen-Orient ou en Océanie. Concernant le statut migratoire, 90% sont citoyens canadiens, 7%
sont résidents permanents, 2% sont étudiants étrangers et moins de 1% sont réfugiés ou en attente
de statut. Dans 69% des cas, la langue principale d’usage est le français et dans 5% des cas
l’anglais. 25% utilisent les deux langues comme langues principales d’usage. En termes de
religion actuelle, 56% des étudiants n’adhèrent à aucune religion, 34% au Christianisme, 7% à
l’Islam et les autres, dans une plus faible proportion, au Bouddhisme, à l’Hindouisme, au
Judaïsme, au Sikhisme ou autres.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1805 by Dog » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:56 am

My understanding is that it was a study on radicalisation widely (not just on radical islam). It looked at who is more likely to be sympathetic to radical views. So, it looked at a sample of the gen pop. My understanding is that it's youths (males in early 20s / femakes in kate teens) who were victims of discrimination in the past and feel powerless to act through other means. That religiosity/ community belonging actually seemed to be a protective factor.

Haven't read it yet. It's in french in anybody is innarested:

http://www.sherpa-recherche.com/wp-cont ... 0.2016.pdf
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1806 by AD » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:07 am

Yes. That's what I said.

Nick just assumed I was talking about Islam.

:colbert:
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Post #1807 by Dog » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:35 am

That said, it seems to be a non peer reviewed small study made for a local montreal health agency. Ca vaut ce que ca vaut.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1808 by AD » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:36 am

Right. :colbert:
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1809 by Dog » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:41 am

I agree, then.

:crossarms:
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Post #1810 by AD » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:42 am

Good.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1811 by Dog » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:57 am

On immigration (maybe another thread?), i think the discussion can be had under two angles. 1. Moral obligation (regardless of cost/benefit) and 2. Cost/benefit (regardless of morality).

1. On morality -Personally, i think there is a duty to refugees and immigration to unite families. So there is a base, question is where to draw the line. For me this ties in with the below cost/benefit analysis even if morality would itself dictate you accept a little loss when you are well off to help less fortunates. I don't agree with the more radical open borders arguments on the basis that we shouldn't discriminante between the people in country with people out of the country -here practicality trumps a theoretical morality. I'm for being good as long as it doesn't hurt too much. A little bit may be ok. I'm also for not creating utter chaos.

2. Cost/benefit. Here I think we need to distinguish between economics and culture.

On economics, it's inconclusive to me. Haven't seen alot of clear open debate on it. I'd appreciate input if others have it. My (limited) understandingis that it may be akin ro trade. Overall net positive, but unevenly distributed (some gain, some lose). Gains may skew to upward classes. Seen some studies that low skilled immigration depresses low skilled wages (thus hurting low skilled workers), but the lower costs benefit owners and consumers and the economy as a whole (similar to trade). Also seen studies that low skilled immigrants only just compete with recent immigrants for jobs not natives (ie. They go for the really shitty jobs). The question then is who do less recent immigrants compete with? Higher skilled immigrants seem to have more positive effect on economy -then the question is should we really just let these people in. I've seen that the bulk of immigrantion is family members/sponsored immigration-not the best way to target high skilled workers. Basically, i don't have alot of clarity on this and I think it is key to a "rational" position on the issue.

Culture wise, i'm personally quite tolerant but even pro-immigration proponents should realise the very real risk of nativist backlash (see germany notably). I do think practically speaking you have to dose it.

So, basically, i'm kinda of in limbo. I have liberal tendencies, but little hard data. Thoughts?
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1812 by AD » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:07 am

Morally, I think open borders are a must.

Practically, its nonsense. I like my Netflix and wine tastings and car and house and kids in private school and I-phone and free healthcare... etc.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1813 by jester » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:16 am

These are hard questions ... and a lot of it boils down to what type of society you want to live in. The economic data is pretty murky and often suggests that immigration is a net benefit (particularly in the long term). Of course, a lot of the nativist backlash has less to do with economics than it does with cultural protectionism, IMO.

On the morality front, I think we have an issue even beyond policy. The rhetoric surrounding immigrants and, in particular, refugee populations needs to fundamentally alter among certain groups. There are certainly quite cogent arguments against open border, etc., but we can have those debates without resorting to the othering that we see so much of.

It is also essential to be aware of the distinction between immigration debates here in North America and what countries are dealing with in other regions of the world. We do not have a war zone on our border, ethnic/national identity groups pulling away from the center, etc. that we are trying to manage while having this debate.
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Post #1814 by Retarder S » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:29 pm

It's like doing too much cocaine, just a little from time to time is good, too much in a short span is dangerous.
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Post #1815 by Slick Nick » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:36 pm

AD wrote:Yes. That's what I said.

Nick just assumed I was talking about Islam.

:colbert:


Why would you post it in a thread about Islam if you knew it was about 17 years old christian girls from cegep de Ste-Foy :mkbét:
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Post #1816 by Retarder S » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:40 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
AD wrote:Yes. That's what I said.

Nick just assumed I was talking about Islam.

:colbert:


Why would you post it in a thread about Islam if you knew it was about 17 years old christian girls from cegep de Ste-Foy :mkbét:


Nanners back at it again with his damn Taqiyyah :trump:
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Post #1817 by AD » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:41 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
AD wrote:Yes. That's what I said.

Nick just assumed I was talking about Islam.

:colbert:


Why would you post it in a thread about Islam if you knew it was about 17 years old christian girls from cegep de Ste-Foy :mkbét:


This thread is about everything. :punchballs:
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Post #1818 by edgar_dong » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:27 pm

Retarder S wrote:It's like doing too much cocaine, just a little from time to time is good, too much in a short span is dangerous.


What's so bad about brimming with misery and hatred for a couple weeks after a good clean binge? Image
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Post #1819 by Retarder S » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:22 pm

edgar_dong wrote:
Retarder S wrote:It's like doing too much cocaine, just a little from time to time is good, too much in a short span is dangerous.


What's so bad about brimming with misery and hatred for a couple weeks after a good clean binge? Image


Nothing, if you actually survive to experience it. :paulrus:
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Post #1820 by Slick Nick » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:24 pm

Saw this on fb about the study on religion and radicalization.

http://www.ledevoir.com/societe/ethique ... dologiques

C’est aussi la question de la radicalisation politicoreligieuse qui a conduit aux diverses études publiées actuellement. Lorsque les enquêtes portent spécifiquement sur cet aspect, le rôle que joue la religion dans la radicalisation menant à la violence ressort sans équivoque. Le rapport du Conseil du statut de la femme (L’engagement des femmes dans la radicalisation violente), rendu public en même temps que celui du Sherpa, en est un exemple : tant l’étude de la littérature que les témoignages recueillis auprès de jeunes femmes attirées par le djihad en Syrie montrent que l’idéal religieux joue un rôle important dans leur cheminement vers la radicalisation et que les recruteurs djihadistes misent sur ce facteur.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1821 by PredsFan77 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:25 pm

looks like chicken scratch
CDX.NA.IG.9









[LEFT]Image[/LEFT]
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Post #1822 by vf » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:03 am

Slick Nick wrote:AD I don't want you to think that I share EB's ideas, because I really don't. As an immigrant myself who went through classe d'accueil and everything, and generally an open minded person, I do not fear radicalisation and terrorism but I am nonetheless concerned by the rising levels of immigration and perceived lack of integration (mostly because there is no geographical redistribution of these immigrants) in the last decade.


Maybe we should stop bombing them out of their homes and fewer of them would want to come here?
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1823 by MP » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:25 am

vf wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:AD I don't want you to think that I share EB's ideas, because I really don't. As an immigrant myself who went through classe d'accueil and everything, and generally an open minded person, I do not fear radicalisation and terrorism but I am nonetheless concerned by the rising levels of immigration and perceived lack of integration (mostly because there is no geographical redistribution of these immigrants) in the last decade.


Maybe we should stop bombing them out of their homes and fewer of them would want to come here?

You meant 'stop missing them', didn't you...? :squint:
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Post #1824 by vf » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:15 pm

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Post #1825 by Retarder S » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:18 am

vf wrote:http://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/a37a8521141684277946353675_700wa_0.gif


Where's the negative rep button

:smuglanne:
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Post #1826 by MP » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:23 am

Retarder S wrote:
vf wrote:http://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/a37a8521141684277946353675_700wa_0.gif


Where's the negative rep button

:smuglanne:

It's the thumbs up beside my posts...
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Post #1827 by vf » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:02 pm

Retarder S wrote:
vf wrote:http://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/a37a8521141684277946353675_700wa_0.gif


Where's the negative rep button

:smuglanne:


You'd have to go whinge and bitch at vonbonds for a year or two. :trump:
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Post #1828 by Dog » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:26 pm

@eb/boozer

https://charlierose.com/videos/12262

Not big on his "purpose" beliefs, but he makes astude observations and I'll be picking up the book.
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Post #1829 by Whit Dickman » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:56 am

Dog wrote:@eb/boozer

https://charlierose.com/videos/12262

Not big on his "purpose" beliefs, but he makes astude observations and I'll be picking up the book.


seems a good impression on how religious leaders use religion. still detached from the everyday man's religion.
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Post #1830 by Whit Dickman » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:59 am

btw, totally disgusted by Trump.
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Post #1831 by Dog » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:03 am

Whit Dickman wrote:btw, totally disgusted by Trump.


Ain't he like the worst!

:)
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Post #1832 by AD » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:48 am

Whit Dickman wrote:btw, totally disgusted by Trump.


Glad to see you're not caught in the great net of police enforcement against young white anti Islam Internet posters.
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Post #1833 by Dog » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:20 pm

I like how I get news alerts of shootings when they may be terror related, but then the news goes dead when not terror related (like the france school shooting this morning).
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Post #1834 by Dog » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:25 pm

As in, if the lone loser with mental health problems claims religious motivations, it becomes a crisis engulfing the Western world and justifying the brashes of actions. If the lone loser with mental health problems doesn't claim religious motivations, meh whatever -this stuff happens, what can you do.
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Post #1835 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:00 am

Dog wrote:@eb/boozer

https://charlierose.com/videos/12262

Not big on his "purpose" beliefs, but he makes astude observations and I'll be picking up the book.

This man has clearly read some very boring books.

Secularism is important, but to have it being pushed by a bunch of celebrities is ultimately hypocritical. I personally do not believe in an all-seeing divinity, but the debate is still very much there to be had, if you're one of those people. Apparently, many of us feel that there may be some purpose to the universe, and that's fine, but we should never chalk all of this up to some self-aware being in the skies. It's foolish. Although I suppose it isn't surprising that people are trying to put a human face on a whole bunch of shit that we could never possibly understand.


I'm not sure I buy into this argument that religion is a great unifier. This may have been true half a century ago, but the whole strategy quickly changed when the churches started emptying out at some point during the 1960's in North America*. It has not been about tolerance at all since then. In fact, this whole thing has become rather vindictive.

* 1920's for our European friends out there
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Post #1836 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:42 am

I take his central point to be that religion is a facet of culture -it reflects the underlying hopes and fears of the people and serves to reinforce shared identity. It's an offshoot of that "group thing" we do. It will be tolerant or intolerant in accordance with the underlying hopes and fears of the group. Insecurities lead to intolerance, need for alliances to tolerance, etc.

That's largely how I see it -a function of group dynamics. I believe that if you take away religion you get....not much change. The underlying hopes and fears will simply manifest themselves through other channels.

I dont feel like religion needs to be defended for its own sake. I just feel the battle to take it on is largely pointless. Pointless because it gets blamed for group dynamics that will just manifest itself differently (though nationalism, ethnicism, etc.) and lead to very little if any behavioral change. In fact, as humans psychologically abhor uncertainty, they will just fill in the gap with other certainties. Secularist tend to put entirely too much stock in rationality as a holy grail. Humans aren't fundamentally rational beings. We're quite irrational, emotional beings with some capacity for rationality (that even then is fraught with many bugs). I just don't buy the "we'll turn everybody into fully rational beings" mantra and, more importantly, there is nothing fundamentally "good" about fully rational beings even if we could bring that out. Rationality is a method, not an end. The end is arbitrary. I'm personally quite rational minded and highly value the scientific approach -it is the best way we know of to attain knowledge. Yet, even the most rational, scientific of minds will still be driven by very "human" instincts and emotion (which is why peer review is so fundamental to any sort of "objective" approach) and ultimately, like I mentioned, rationality does not inform the goals animating our actions. For example, does rationality lead you to act in a very calculated manner in line with game theory, taking very measured cooperative vs non-cooperative bets? Basically does it lead you to fully rational self interest? Is self interest the most rational act? I would think so, both cooperation and cheating IS done out of self interest. Is that the "holy grail"? Very rational game theory like behaviour? But, further, the definition of "self" is fuzzy. Maybe you look beyond and conclude that the "self" as a psychological construct is an illussion and the "border" between self and non self is extremely porous and the self is but the most temporary of states. What's the rational goal then? Still self interest? But which self? And, deeper, is self interest just an evolutionary reflex. Is it just a mechanical self propagating instinct? Why would that be a ´rational goal'?

Long story short, it's complicated. Pointing the finger at religion as "the irrationality" that must be corrected is grossly oversimplistic. It ignores that it is but one aspect of group culture -it can drive the culture, but mostly it is driven by the culture. Beyond, the very premise of "being rational" is oversold by some. More is probably better than less, and I'm a convinced advocate of the scientific method as the best way we know of to attain knowledge. But, that's not the end of the story. The end of the story is what we are in the grand scheme of things (informing what we "should" be doing) and to that we are either blind or there is nothing to see.
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Post #1837 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:24 am

This very drive to understand (or, alternatively, to ascribe meaning even without understanding) is itself a side effect of the evolutionary drive to survive which itself may be wholly arbitrary. By "may" I mean "as far as we can tell and there is no compelling evidence to the contrary".

My best (reasonably informed) guess is that we are disturbances in an intemporal and flat energy field. Intemporal and flat because time and multidimensional space itself is a construct of the disturbance -disturbance which shapes (curves) the field giving rise to what we recognize as spacetime. Where does the disturbance come from? Who knows, some theories would have it be fully random -a consequence of quantum fluctuations (matter, which is a type of such slowed down coalesced energy, pop in and out of existance randomly -it exists as a probability wave until it randomly materialize, that it one of the probabilities materializes), other theories would have the underlying field itself be but one of many and the disturbance is the result of an interraction with another underlying field (a brane in superstring theory). The underlying field(s) itself/themselves could simply just be. It is intemporal (time is a creation of and limited to a particular disturbance) and there is no reason why "nothing" is a more natural original default settting than "something". But theories abound and we are firmly into theoretical physics and not into any sort of observed or experimentally verified theories. So, while it's not a "your guess is as good as mine" (some guesses are better than others, even if just theoretical), it is a firm "we don't know".
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Post #1838 by AD » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:16 pm

Yeah.
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Post #1839 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:18 pm

Which part?
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Post #1840 by AD » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:47 pm

Mostly post 1 paragraph 2. The rest is just puff around that point so I guess all of it.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1841 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:43 pm

The puff is needed because these idiots don't understand human nature and the nature of the universe, AD. You gotta spoon feed them.

:rollseyes:




:danson:
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1842 by AD » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:08 pm

Like I said: yeah.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1843 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:40 pm

They think that if people stop believing in God, they will become rational beings and rational beings = the key to happy nirvana.

Lol.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1844 by AD » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:56 pm

Dog wrote:They think that if people stop believing in God, they will become rational beings and rational beings = the key to happy nirvana.

Lol.


Nazis are all about rationality.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1845 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:51 pm

Dog wrote:The puff is needed because these idiots don't understand human nature and the nature of the universe, AD. You gotta spoon feed them.

:rollseyes:




:danson:

Listen here, if you've got some beef with EB that's all well & good, but please don't make me out to be some kind of irrational, Norwegian church arsonist.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1846 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:04 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:
Dog wrote:The puff is needed because these idiots don't understand human nature and the nature of the universe, AD. You gotta spoon feed them.

:rollseyes:




:danson:

Listen here, if you've got some beef with EB that's all well & good, but please make me out to be some kind of irrational, Norwegian church arsonist.


Nazi.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1847 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:09 pm

Dog wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:
Dog wrote:The puff is needed because these idiots don't understand human nature and the nature of the universe, AD. You gotta spoon feed them.

:rollseyes:




:danson:

Listen here, if you've got some beef with EB that's all well & good, but please make me out to be some kind of irrational, Norwegian church arsonist.


Nazi.

Papal apologist...
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1848 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:19 pm

AD wrote:
Dog wrote:They think that if people stop believing in God, they will become rational beings and rational beings = the key to happy nirvana.

Lol.


Nazis are all about rationality.


There is a thing about how jihadists tend to be principled analytical types.

:paranoid:
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1849 by Dog » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:24 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:
Dog wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:Listen here, if you've got some beef with EB that's all well & good, but please make me out to be some kind of irrational, Norwegian church arsonist.


Nazi.

Papal apologist...


I tend to view "fighting religion" similarly with viewing "fighting nationalism". The people need their groups and they'll get their groups one way or another. When it's relatively inclusive and tolerant, let them have it. Concentrate on fighting the intolerant, exclusionary extremes.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1850 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:27 pm

Dog wrote:... the intolerant, exclusionary extremes.


What you're describing here is mainstream, organized religion.

The kind where we should distrust "infidels". The kind where we try to tell people what bathrooms they should use. The kind that believes that God promised only us, and our like-minded brethren, a certain batch of land. It's all very much exclusionary, Dog.

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