Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3951 by Boring Choice #2 » Fri May 11, 2018 8:14 am

It'd also be nice to have some decent local candidates to choose between instead of the same shit over and over.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3952 by AD » Fri May 11, 2018 9:06 am

From an outsider's perspective, I just wish there is a strong "anything but Doug Ford" camp that will eventually choose a candidate and run with it.

Also, if that doesn't work. I will forever laugh at you guys for electing potentially the biggest farce in Canadian politics in the history of the country. Like, who the hell looks at Donald Trump in the states and says: "I like him, but he's too polished, hasn't done enough drugs, and comes from too rich a family. If only I could find an asshole that speaks like him, but is less ambitious, more of a fuck up, and maybe has a more petty criminal past".
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3953 by Craig » Fri May 11, 2018 9:32 am

Meh, Toronto elected his crackhead brother. We can't really disdain the US for Trump.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3954 by senate » Fri May 11, 2018 9:52 am

I'm convinced that Andrea Horwath died a decade ago and her aides have been running some sort of Weekend at Bernie's caper ever since. It is the only logical explanation for the Ontario NDP being a complete nonentity the past two elections.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3955 by Dog » Fri May 11, 2018 10:04 am

Dog ford in Ontario. The CAQ in Quebec.

Yeah.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3956 by Murphy » Fri May 11, 2018 11:28 am

The NDP in Ontario are so uninspiring. I mean, all the parties suck, but you would think the NDP would realize this is their chance.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3957 by WTF » Sat May 12, 2018 11:12 am

None of the three major parties has much in the way of inspiring leadership.

For the Liberals, maybe they decided going into this that someone would have to fall on their sword with the wildly unpopular Hydro One partial sell-off still fresh in everyone's minds. That or Wynne just refuses to step down and would rather go down with the ship. While I'm not sure if the party distancing itself from her would make a lick of difference at this point, it still seems a little strange.

For the PCs, they had a slate of potential candidates to choose from and they chose Doug fucking Ford!?! What the hell? Leaving aside the fact he comes as the sleaziest possible option anyone could have chosen, how does a guy who wants to double down on a $3.2+ billion one-stop subway line to Scarborough come across as fiscally-responsible to anyone? $5+ billion for transit, $5+ billion in tax cuts...where the hell is the money going to come from?

For the NDP, Horwath is the one who led her party from holding the balance of power prior to the previous election to becoming a non-factor and the fact the Liberals wound up with a majority in the first place can be traced back to Horwath's ambitions and tactical blunder. How is she still the leader?
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3958 by TittiesNBeer » Sat May 12, 2018 11:26 am

Ive never voted ndp. I thought i never would.

They seem.like the best of three bad options right now.

That should ve their campaign. We arent as bad as the other 2
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3959 by Craig » Sat May 12, 2018 12:07 pm

It is their campaign.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3960 by MP » Sun May 13, 2018 10:22 pm

I still can't believe the Liberals didnt turf Wynne. Anyway, I can't see an Orange wave coming either, so you'd have to think the Greens might finally see an uptick... Yeah, probably not.

I guess my best result would be a Ford minority government, but I'm almost certain he'll get a majority.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3961 by Boring Choice #2 » Sun May 13, 2018 10:33 pm

it's going to be a painful 5 years of drivel and partly laced with bitching about the previous government.

i wonder how many of the big unions will strike against his government when they try to renegotiate all their contracts.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3962 by Boring Choice #2 » Sun May 13, 2018 10:35 pm

i mean, the teachers and the nurses seem like they are a given when their contracts are up. it's a question of the other unions as well.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3963 by The Bytown Boozer » Mon May 14, 2018 3:38 am

It's only day 4 or 5 of the election at this point. Ford is not doing well and Horwath is more or less seen as the opposition right now. Ford is spending a ton of money and airtime on attacking her rather than Wynne at this point.

Doug won't last 30 days without saying something insane.

Boozer predicts: NDP minority.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3964 by The Bytown Boozer » Mon May 14, 2018 3:46 am

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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3965 by Dog » Mon May 14, 2018 9:41 am

I don’t follow the Ontario. Why exactly would ford be preferable to Wynne in any conceivable form?
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Re: RE: Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3966 by TittiesNBeer » Mon May 14, 2018 9:52 am

Dog wrote:I don’t follow the Ontario. Why exactly would ford be preferable to Wynne in any conceivable form?
Wynne has been a disaster. A giant clusterfuck.

Ford vs wynne is two horrible options.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3967 by Craig » Mon May 14, 2018 9:57 am

^ That attitude is pretty prevalent. The real thing is voter fatigue with the Liberals. Everyone agrees that "Wynne is awful" but if you look at her actual track record it's pretty pedestrian. She's lumped in with a gas plant scandal that was largely the part of her predecessor. She sold 30% of the provincial hyrdo company and used the proceeds for infrastructure spending and debt reduction, which is apparently a scandal. It's mostly pretty mundane stuff as far as "disasters" go, but people are buying the hype over the substance.

She's in no way equivalent to Ford. Dumbs gotta be dumb tho.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3968 by Dog » Mon May 14, 2018 10:04 am

Craig wrote:^ That attitude is pretty prevalent. The real thing is voter fatigue with the Liberals. Everyone agrees that "Wynne is awful" but if you look at her actual track record it's pretty pedestrian. She's lumped in with a gas plant scandal that was largely the part of her predecessor. She sold 30% of the provincial hyrdo company and used the proceeds for infrastructure spending and debt reduction, which is apparently a scandal. It's mostly pretty mundane stuff as far as "disasters" go, but people are buying the hype over the substance.

She's in no way equivalent to Ford. Dumbs gotta be dumb tho.


that was my sense to, but was shocked that ford seems likely to beat her (from the posts in this thread). so thought maybe i had missed something about wynne (who seems to me to be simply a mediocre uninspired liberal -that's still miles and miles better than ford).
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3969 by Craig » Mon May 14, 2018 10:06 am

This is what I posted about this the last time you asked:

Craig wrote:You know it's odd. Wynne is historically unpopular and has a reputation for incredibly bad policy, but if you press people on it they normally can't actually come up with much in the way of tangible complaints. She inherited a gas plant scandal from 2011 that there's no proof she was actually involved with. She sold off part of a public utility and used the proceeds to pay down the debt and invest in infrastructure. She's got a lame scheme to keep hydro prices artificially low for a bit at the cost of making them slightly higher in the future.

But she's also stewarded the economy from below average employment and growth to above average on both counts. She's also brought alcohol sales to grocery stores, which is a pretty popular decision. All in all, it's really not that bad of a record. It doesn't merit the hate she gets.


But then you have other people, and I'm ignoring people like Westy and Beaker and focusing on normally rational folks who say stuff like:

MP wrote:And Wynne is the most incompetent leader of an established governing party I have ever seen. Everything she's touched has been a disaster. Hopefully we don't go orange again, but I'm not sure it could be worse...


Germz wrote:But I agree that Wynne's government has been a clusterfuck and she needs to go. This hydro bill thing has really, really hurt a lot of people, and she cannot undo that.

A shame because I used to like her. As much as you can like a politician, anyway. But then I liked Alison Redford at first, so my ability to judge competence is pretty bad.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3970 by Dog » Mon May 14, 2018 10:12 am

I remembered your take on her. That was before ford won the con nomination, though. you'd think that would change all (ie. the cons would not even be considered). the discussion may be lib-ndp or something. but people seem to be talking about wynne as so bad that ford is likely to win....so i was like "did i miss something, wtf did she do that ford is a viable alternative".
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3971 by AD » Mon May 14, 2018 10:29 am

So I just checked the polls. And it looks like you guys are about 90% certain to elect Ford. And it looks like you'll elect him with a likely strong majority.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3972 by AD » Mon May 14, 2018 10:29 am

Lol.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3973 by TittiesNBeer » Mon May 14, 2018 10:29 am

Is she equivalent to Ford? No, I agree with that.

Doesn't mean she is not a horrible choice though.

- The hydro stuff isn't small, the way electricity bills have exploded can be directly tied to the way that was handled.
- it wasn't just privatizing the grid, it was also terrible deals financially with solar and wind electricity providers, guaranteeing them three times the market rate for electricity for 20 years.

The Gas Plant scandal, she was heavily involved in. The plants were cancelled on the eve of the 2011 election. She was the campaign chair. The cancelled plants were a bad fiscal decision made to save votes in the ridings they were going to be located in and residents opposed. Its cost the province billions. There has never been a good answer on who ordered the emails deleted.

Here's a good look at all the mistakes in the electricity issue.
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the- ... r-failure/

Then you have the closing of hospitals, the cuts to health care, and the e-health debacle which went massively overbudget.

The minimum wage law was rolled out too fast, and Ontario is losing jobs, where most of the rest of north america is seeing job growth.

Don't get me wrong, Ford is worse, but Wynne has been a disaster.

That's why I'm strongly leaning towards voting NDP.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3974 by AD » Mon May 14, 2018 10:30 am

I mean, the CAQ sucks and it looks likely they'll take in Quebec in 5 months, but really, in the grand scheme of things, they're nowhere near as bad the Ontario PC right now.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3975 by Dog » Mon May 14, 2018 10:43 am

The CAQ is pretty bad, though. Everything is mongo now.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3976 by Dog » Mon May 14, 2018 10:48 am

I blame the cons for going full retard the world over. No alternative when people get tired of the libs or feel a change is warranted. The alternative is going with the mongos. And many seem to do it.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3977 by Craig » Mon May 14, 2018 11:01 am

TittiesNBeer wrote:Is she equivalent to Ford? No, I agree with that.

Doesn't mean she is not a horrible choice though.

- The hydro stuff isn't small, the way electricity bills have exploded can be directly tied to the way that was handled.
- it wasn't just privatizing the grid, it was also terrible deals financially with solar and wind electricity providers, guaranteeing them three times the market rate for electricity for 20 years.

The Gas Plant scandal, she was heavily involved in. The plants were cancelled on the eve of the 2011 election. She was the campaign chair. The cancelled plants were a bad fiscal decision made to save votes in the ridings they were going to be located in and residents opposed. Its cost the province billions. There has never been a good answer on who ordered the emails deleted.

Here's a good look at all the mistakes in the electricity issue.
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the- ... r-failure/

Then you have the closing of hospitals, the cuts to health care, and the e-health debacle which went massively overbudget.

The minimum wage law was rolled out too fast, and Ontario is losing jobs, where most of the rest of north america is seeing job growth.

Don't get me wrong, Ford is worse, but Wynne has been a disaster.

That's why I'm strongly leaning towards voting NDP.


This shit is all comically wrong. What the fuck, Beaker?

The FIT program, which has a small impact on hydro prices, was launched in 2009. Nothing to do with Wynne, other than she's dramatically scaled back how much we overpay. Even the article you cited is just complaining about stuff McGuinty did. It's also terrible and badly sourced. The biggest cause of our Hydro prices is our shit power generation/infrastructure that we under-invested in from like the late 70s until the mid 2000s. We pay more than we should to generate power in expensive ways, but we also pay big premiums to upgrade infrastructure that should have been fixed ages ago. You can't blame power costs on just one person, this goes back decades.

She was a bit player in the gas plant scandal, especially the scandal part where people went to jail and she's been repeatedly cleared. She was helping run an election at the time, not investigating the cost/benefit of moving a gas plant.

Ehealth was like 5 years before she was premier.

Cuts to healthcare are only real in your imagination, of course. The Liberals have increased healthcare spending like everyone else.

Ontario is not losing jobs. Jesus, where do you get this nonsense? Here's a chart showing employment under Wynne:

http://files.ontario.ca/dec01-2017e.jpg
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3978 by TittiesNBeer » Mon May 14, 2018 11:03 am

- Ontario sheds 59,300 part-time jobs in January as new $14 minimum wage begins
- Ontario Economic Development Minister Steven Del Duca denies wage hike behind job losses
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/o ... -1.4528669
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3979 by TittiesNBeer » Mon May 14, 2018 11:04 am

Health Care

Wynne is offering solutions to health care problems her government created
Three years ago, her government cut residency spots. Now she's promising cash to fund new ones

http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/health-c ... -1.4661186
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3980 by TittiesNBeer » Mon May 14, 2018 11:05 am

Sorry Greg, i must get my non-sense from the ultra right-wing CBC, providing all this fake news about Wynne... right?
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3981 by TittiesNBeer » Mon May 14, 2018 11:07 am

As for the impact of liberal policies on electricity prices....

Wynne has publically admitted that she made mistakes on the file... but again... lets ignore that as poorly sourced.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3982 by Craig » Mon May 14, 2018 11:39 am

TittiesNBeer wrote:Sorry Greg, i must get my non-sense from the ultra right-wing CBC, providing all this fake news about Wynne... right?


The nonsense is in your interpretation of that information. One monthly job report, which if you read the article repeatedly says it shouldn't be interpreted as being because of what you're claiming it is? One cherry picked stat on cutting healthcare spending? Gimme a break.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3983 by Germz » Mon May 14, 2018 12:50 pm

I no longer live in Ontario so I'm not following too closely anymore. So I don't claim to really know what I'm talking about. My mother has basically told me the same thing as Craig, and my mother is usually right. But there's no denying the widespread outrage over electricity prices. Wynne's attempt to save face on this issue backfired for a lot of voters, and this I think is where Postmedia/Sunmedia did have an effect. They presented it in the most cynical light, and I think people were angry enough to agree. Still, I do think that whether it's fair or not, Wynne has to wear the hydro issue, simply because she has to wear 15 years of Liberal government. This is a narrative that doesn't make sense in Toronto, because that's not where lower-income people have been hit the hardest (as far as I can tell). But from what I can see, it makes Wynne or any Liberal unelectable in huge swaths of the province.

It's certainly true that she inherited a lot of McGuinty's baggage. And the excessive personal hostility toward Wynne is weird and unnecessary.

Ford is going to be a goddamned embarrassment. This whole thing is Patrick Brown's fault. Scumbag.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3984 by Germz » Mon May 14, 2018 12:55 pm

Also this graphic is circulating in Conservative circles:

Image
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3985 by mcphee » Mon May 14, 2018 12:59 pm

Germz wrote:I no longer live in Ontario so I'm not following too closely anymore. So I don't claim to really know what I'm talking about. My mother has basically told me the same thing as Craig, and my mother is usually right. But there's no denying the widespread outrage over electricity prices. Wynne's attempt to save face on this issue backfired for a lot of voters, and this I think is where Postmedia/Sunmedia did have an effect. They presented it in the most cynical light, and I think people were angry enough to agree. Still, I do think that whether it's fair or not, Wynne has to wear the hydro issue, simply because she has to wear 15 years of Liberal government. This is a narrative that doesn't make sense in Toronto, because that's not where lower-income people have been hit the hardest (as far as I can tell). But from what I can see, it makes Wynne or any Liberal unelectable in huge swaths of the province.

It's certainly true that she inherited a lot of McGuinty's baggage. And the excessive personal hostility toward Wynne is weird and unnecessary.

Ford is going to be a goddamned embarrassment. This whole thing is Patrick Brown's fault. Scumbag.


Our local guy , he PC candidate, is a really god candidate. Good guy, good family, couldn't think of something negative to say about him, other than he represents a party led by a jerk. I hate endorsing a jerk, Ford truly represents everything I dislike in people. I don't see much to be done though. I'm not a fan of Wynne but there's a price to be paid. Fair doesn't really matter at this point. I've never, ever, not voted, municipal, provincial,federal, 2 referendums, I will probably vote but I see little point this time. The PC local will get close to 70% and he probably should.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3986 by mcphee » Mon May 14, 2018 1:02 pm

and I'd like to meet your Mother.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3987 by Germz » Mon May 14, 2018 1:06 pm

she's a super lady
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3988 by Craig » Mon May 14, 2018 1:23 pm

Germz wrote:I no longer live in Ontario so I'm not following too closely anymore. So I don't claim to really know what I'm talking about. My mother has basically told me the same thing as Craig, and my mother is usually right. But there's no denying the widespread outrage over electricity prices. Wynne's attempt to save face on this issue backfired for a lot of voters, and this I think is where Postmedia/Sunmedia did have an effect. They presented it in the most cynical light, and I think people were angry enough to agree. Still, I do think that whether it's fair or not, Wynne has to wear the hydro issue, simply because she has to wear 15 years of Liberal government. This is a narrative that doesn't make sense in Toronto, because that's not where lower-income people have been hit the hardest (as far as I can tell). But from what I can see, it makes Wynne or any Liberal unelectable in huge swaths of the province.

It's certainly true that she inherited a lot of McGuinty's baggage. And the excessive personal hostility toward Wynne is weird and unnecessary.

Ford is going to be a goddamned embarrassment. This whole thing is Patrick Brown's fault. Scumbag.


Your mom sounds smart.

Your analysis is more or less bang-on, I think.

My take on Wynne is she's eating a lot of garbage from more than a decade of her party being in power, and they took over from some grossly incompetent regimes before them so there's a lot of long-term issues she's stuck with. She hasn't dealt with them particularly well, but it's far from the disaster it's made out to be. There's really not much you can do about hydro prices when all the plants were built in the 60s, you know? At least she's trying to upgrade the grid and not just kicking the can even further down the road. But the stink here is impressive and she hasn't done anything good on this issue, so she kinda deserves it.

Beyond that, the Liberals have basically been competent, if uninspiring governors. They've stewarded the economy relatively responsibly through the recession and recovery, we're enjoying moderate GDP growth, low unemployment and rising wages. They're getting desperate and their current platform shows it, trying to buy votes through deficit spending in a time when we should be running surpluses and paying down the debt. It's a shame nobody else is running a good alternative.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3989 by Boring Choice #2 » Fri May 18, 2018 9:52 am

so i did the cbc vote analysis thing and apparantly i'm slightly less socially conservative and slightly more fiscally conservative than the pc's with the other three parties bunched up in the top left. it wouldn't let me copy the results here, but i'm one square down (social conservatism) and two to the right (fiscal conservatism) versus one and a half down and one and a half to the right for the pc party. libs are two+ left and two up. greens are three left and almost three up.

honestly i think i'm really more likely less than half a square down if not half a square up and two right. i don't give a shit about any of the social conservative things except when it impacts fiscally conservative stuff.




https://votecompass.cbc.ca/ontario/home
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3990 by Dog » Wed May 23, 2018 7:48 am

The Bytown Boozer wrote:It's only day 4 or 5 of the election at this point. Ford is not doing well and Horwath is more or less seen as the opposition right now. Ford is spending a ton of money and airtime on attacking her rather than Wynne at this point.

Doug won't last 30 days without saying something insane.

Boozer predicts: NDP minority.


Prophet.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3991 by The Bytown Boozer » Wed May 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Dog wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:It's only day 4 or 5 of the election at this point. Ford is not doing well and Horwath is more or less seen as the opposition right now. Ford is spending a ton of money and airtime on attacking her rather than Wynne at this point.

Doug won't last 30 days without saying something insane.

Boozer predicts: NDP minority.


Prophet.


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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3992 by TittiesNBeer » Wed May 23, 2018 9:22 pm

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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3993 by Dog » Wed May 23, 2018 10:01 pm

Vice News has an office in Montreal?
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3994 by senate » Wed May 23, 2018 10:36 pm

Vice began as Voice of Montreal magazine.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3995 by Dog » Wed May 23, 2018 11:11 pm

Huh. Didn't know that.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3996 by AD » Thu May 24, 2018 9:41 am

Dog wrote:Vice News has an office in Montreal?


Vice is from here. It still here. And offices in Mtl and NY are the biggest (though granted, NY is huge)
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3997 by Dog » Thu May 24, 2018 9:59 am

Fine, I’m an idiot! Are you all happy now??!!!
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3998 by AD » Thu May 24, 2018 10:12 am

Why would you being an idiot make me happy?
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #3999 by senate » Thu May 24, 2018 10:16 am

AD wrote:Why would you being an idiot make me happy?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katagelasticism
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau

Post #4000 by AD » Thu May 24, 2018 10:36 am

Hunh.. well look at that.

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